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Author Topic: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze  (Read 2820 times)

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Offline slcbelle

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Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« on: July 15, 2012, 11:41:51 AM »
I am practicing for the Adult Pre-Bronze MITF test next month and would like to know the thoughts of the judges and coaches here on the number of crossovers at the end of the rink during perimeter stroking.  The test book diagram shows 4 crossovers, my coach says 4 crossovers, but the test book states:

      "The skater will perform four to eight straight strokes depending on the length of the ice and the strength of the skater, with crossovers
       around the ends
, using the full ice surface and for one full lap of the rink (in both directions)."


It doesn't specify the number of crossovers like it does with the number of strokes.  In watching many other (passing) PB MITF test videos online, and even the USFSA video here http://www.usfsa.org/Shell.asp?sid=35082, I see a lot of people doing only 3 crossovers and not 4.

I'm finding that the 4th crossover makes me start to turn towards the center of the ice right when I am ready to start stroking.  In other words, 3 crossovers enable me to use all of the ice around the curve but the 4th makes me turn too far away from the wall when, at that point, I really need to go straight with stroking.  I'm finding that I have to make the 4th crossover really small which looks terrible and stiff.  Maybe I have enough power in the 3 crossovers that I don't need the 4th.

What are your recommendations for the number of crossovers at the end?  Would you ding a skater for doing 3, if she has enough power and extension to do it, rather than 4?

FWIW, I'm on an Olympic size rink and will be for testing.

Thank you.
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Offline jjane45

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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2012, 12:10:29 PM »
I wanted to do 3 but dance coach insists to keep it at 4. He said go closer to the boards IIRC.

Offline JHarer

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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2012, 12:16:04 PM »
I prefer 3, but coach says 4. I struggle to do the fourth crossover, unless I have a lot of speed and stay down in the knees.

Offline sarahspins

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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2012, 12:43:46 PM »
My coach also says 4... I find it's easier if I do them quicker and with less power.

Offline slcbelle

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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2012, 12:48:48 PM »
My coach also says 4... I find it's easier if I do them quicker and with less power.

Do you find that means you are more upright with less knee bend?
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Offline Skittl1321

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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2012, 01:07:29 PM »
The number is optional. Lots of coaches will insist on a specific number though.

Offline VAsk8r

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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2012, 01:53:19 PM »
My coach made me do four as well and used the ads on our boards as guides for when to start and stop. I struggled to fit them all in too. Like sarahspins said, I just did them very quickly and didn't glide for nearly as long in between them as I normally would.

But if it doesn't specify, I would talk to your coach about why she prefers four. I never thought to ask mine.

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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2012, 05:40:10 PM »
I think the reason most coaches want 4 crossovers is because the diagram in the test book, shows 4 crossovers.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/201112TestsBook.pdf (the diagram is on page 121.)

Offline FigureSpins

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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2012, 07:12:15 PM »
To fit in the four crossovers:

As you finish your last stroke/glide down the long axis, angle it towards the perimeter wall, so that you skate further into the corner.  This expands the skating pattern.  The first crossover is around the closest hockey dot, the second between the dot and the goalie box, the third between the goalie box and the dot, the final takes you around the hockey dot and out of the corner.  I have the skaters go around the hockey box because it matches the pattern exactly and the curve is easier to manage.

I've always had my skaters do four.  Why invite trouble?
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Offline slcbelle

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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2012, 07:55:04 PM »
To fit in the four crossovers:

As you finish your last stroke/glide down the long axis, angle it towards the perimeter wall, so that you skate further into the corner.  This expands the skating pattern.  The first crossover is around the closest hockey dot, the second between the dot and the goalie box, the third between the goalie box and the dot, the final takes you around the hockey dot and out of the corner.  I have the skaters go around the hockey box because it matches the pattern exactly and the curve is easier to manage.

I've always had my skaters do four.  Why invite trouble?

Thank you for the reference points!  That should help me immensely. 

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Offline slusher

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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2012, 09:39:03 PM »
I teach exactly the same as FigureSpins.  I am very exact for what I want with stroking. 

Offline slcbelle

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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2012, 09:43:24 PM »
I teach exactly the same as FigureSpins.  I am very exact for what I want with stroking. 

FigureSpins and slusher, what do you say about the number of forward strokes and do you advise your students to use certain visual cue (hockey marks) for when to change feet?  Do you allow your students to have intro steps and, if so, how many and from where?
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Offline FigureSpins

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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2012, 11:16:58 PM »
Your coach will tell you what the norm is - just go with their instruction.

I have three different entrances I've used because different areas have different norms.  The entrance stroke limit is 7.  I never teach more than 5 because (a) I want them to push; and (b) if they mess up, they have a two-stroke cushion.

As for counting the strokes, I don't have them do that.  Their objective is to get down the ice fast with even strokes and glides.

For the record, Slusher helped me define the crossover landmarks months ago in the Coaches Lounge.  We teach the same pattern, but she describes the journey better.  I also use the cues of "to the corner, around the dot, one before the box, one after the box, around the dot and away you go."
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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2012, 11:21:39 PM »
6 strokes for about everyone here on this test.

Offline slcbelle

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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2012, 12:32:21 AM »
6 strokes for about everyone here on this test.

Do you mean for intro steps or straight strokes?
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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2012, 07:12:20 AM »
Do you mean for intro steps or straight strokes?

The actual strokes. Didn't observe the intro steps, coaches have different preferences.

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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2012, 07:15:21 AM »
Their objective is to get down the ice fast
Interesting. Speed was never a goal of this move when I did it. My coach never mentioned it. Power is not one of the objectives in the rule book.

My coach did have me count strokes, and emphasised an even, fluid rhythm, good posture, knee bend and extension. He said it was essential I do the same numbers on both sides, in both directions.

I did 6 strokes and 4 crossovers.

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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2012, 09:27:35 AM »
6 strokes are about right for me without slowing down significantly, but I have more power than the younger kids and many do need to hold quite a bit to cover the ice in 6 strokes. The rulebook does allow 8 IIRC.

Offline slcbelle

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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2012, 09:32:33 AM »
I've been doing 4.  One to the blue line, one to the red, one to the blue, one to the end.  I'll try 6 today.
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Offline slusher

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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2012, 11:30:48 AM »
Here's the thing:  If you can skate using power from the entire stroke in an efficient way then you have the time and the skills to decide how many strokes you're going to show.

Skate Canada used to say four around the end and six down the sides and that's what is printed in their pattern, but the wording now says the number of steps should suit the size of the skater.  So I would never expect to see an adult doing eight, nor a young child doing four.    If a young child is not getting down the ice very well it doesn't matter how many strokes, the judge is going to assess the mechanics of the stroking and very likely by the halfway point of the first side is going to make a decision. 

The coach that made the most impact on me in stroking used to show us this in 2 + 2.   2 side strokes, 2 crosscuts, not sets of crosscuts, but two steps. Envyhate.

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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2012, 11:56:24 AM »
Envyhate +1

Offline slcbelle

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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2012, 06:20:40 PM »
I used the hockey dots/goal markings for my crossovers as suggested and that did the trick!  I also skated the straights with 4 strokes and 6 strokes.  Either are fine for me but I'll go with 6 since most people, and the diagram, use 6.  Thanks everyone!
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Re: Number of Crossovers - Perimeter Stroking Pre-Bronze
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2012, 09:48:44 PM »
The coach that made the most impact on me in stroking used to show us this in 2 + 2.   2 side strokes, 2 crosscuts, not sets of crosscuts, but two steps. Envyhate.

Wow that is amazing power! I can hold onto one foot glide for half rink length or longer but that ends in snail's pace...