If I can't get an outside edge, and fall insiide on spins?

[Christy]

Apologies as this is long, and I'm hoping it makes sense. I would really appreciate advice so happy to answer any questions that help to clarify.

I just got a new pair of skates and the right blade feels perfect but I'm having issues with the left one. I cannot get onto the left outside edge to do half circles (I always had really good outside edges). When I try to glide round a half circle on the outside edge  I feel like I am fighting (and failing) the blade which wants to go straight / right.
When I try to glide in a straight line on that blade I veer to the right and fall onto the inside edge.
When I try to spin on my left foot I immediately fall onto the inside of the blade and I can actually feel it happening. It's not a problem with the sweet spot, it's the actual boot / foot falling to the (in)side.

I feel like the problem may be the location of the back of the blade in relation to the heel, but I cannot easily get to my fitter (it's a weekend trip) and the local guy is not the best (hence the weekend trip!). The local guy will not do any work supervised, has some strange ideas about fitting blades, and always puts every single screw in!

I think moving the blade towards the inside of the heel could help, as it would allow the blade to turn more for the outside edges and it would support my foot in the spins. Does that sound correct?

Now, that may be a long term solution when I can make another weekend trip, but in the short term I'm trying to work out if I can put anything inside the boot to help, and that's where I'm struggling. I have old insoles I can cut up and play with but I'm not sure what needs to go where.
I think I need to support the inside of the front of the foot and the outside of the heel but I'm not sure so would appreciate any advice please??

[tstop4me]

Not sure whether I have you mixed up with someone else.  But did you have a similar problem with your previous skates, and suspected that one boot might be twisted?  Anyway, before we go through a round of diagnostics, what boots and blades are your new ones?

[Christy]

That's correct, about the twisted boot. I took the previous skates to 2 well respected fitters. Both immediately told me the boot was twisted, and one removed the blades to see if they could refit them, but it wasn't cost effective (cost of Edea plugs and work required) especially as the boots were starting to break down.
The old boots had had two different sets of blades, with different soleplates, on them and when they removed the blade from the right boot they could see the two sets of holes, but on the left (twisted) boot there was only one set of holes so the person who'd put the second set of blades on had reused the original holes on the now twisted boot!, so it appears that the incorrect mounting of the replacement blade into the original holes had twisted the left boot.

Between those fitters I tried a lot of different Jackson, Reidell and Risport boots but none worked so they put me in another pair of Ice Flies. So the same as the twisted boot, but this is my fourth pair of IFs and with the exception of the twisted boot I've always been OK in them.

As I obviously have a lot of experience with twisted Edeas I am 99% certain that isn't the problem with these boots. My foot idoesn't feel like it's being twisted in any way. It sits very straight in the boot both on and off the ice. The blades are level and straight according to various spirit levels, but just looking at the left blade it does look like it's offset slightly to the outside on the heel compared to the right one.

Sorry that's long, but I'm hoping it helps.

[tstop4me]

As I obviously have a lot of experience with twisted Edeas I am 99% certain that isn't the problem with these boots. My foot idoesn't feel like it's being twisted in any way. It sits very straight in the boot both on and off the ice. The blades are level and straight according to various spirit levels, but just looking at the left blade it does look like it's offset slightly to the outside on the heel compared to the right one.

<<Emphasis added.>>

* I think you mentioned spirit levels before; not sure we cleared up what you're doing with these.  The first things you need to check are (a) is the blade straight and (b) are the edges level.  Just because the blade on one boot is OK doesn't mean that the blade on the other boot is OK.  You can check whether the blade is straight by placing a reference straight edge along the entire length (toepick to heel) of the runner.  A steel machinist's straight edge or rigid ruler works fine.  If you have a long enough spirit level, that will also work fine.

To check whether the edges are level, you will need a machinist's square, magnetic edge-level checker, or hollow depth indicator gauge.  Proper choice of tool depends on the blades you have.  I believe you were on Matrix Supreme.  Is that still the case?

* You can't conclude at this stage that you just need to move the heel of the blade towards the inside.  That comes at a later stage of fine tuning (by comparing straight glides and single edges in forward vs backward directions).  You appear to have a problem with pronation.  You want to move the blade towards the inside.  Are you on a temp mount?  If so, loosen the screws, push the blade as far to the inside as you can (may not be much depending on how the screws were installed), and re-tighten the screws.  If some permanent screws have been installed, as long as all four temp screws have been installed (in the elongated slots), you can remove the permanent screws to re-establish the temp mount.  If your tech didn't install all four temp screws, he screwed up.

* With respect to your insoles, you want to raise the inside edge of your insole.  You can use adhesive molefoam (this is adhesive moleskin with additional foam padding) or Velcro tape to build up layers for trial.  Start with a strip ~2 cm wide from toe to heel on the underside of the insole.  See how that works.  You can fine tune later.

[Christy]

Yes, Matrix, and I used a long ruler with a spirit level along blade and it was straight against it, which is why I said it was straight. I checked several times as I thought it looked a bit off, but it's definitely straight.

I asked the fitters about pronation as I assumed I did because of all of the problems. Both said I didn't, and that reinforces what I've been told by other fitters. I think I'm going to try to see a podiatrist to get a proper check. I have done the forward glide test a few times and always the same - totally straight on the right foot, and veering to the right on the left foot.

On the boots I have full temp mount plus one of the front screws as the soles weren't totally flat, so they used those screws to close the gap. You think I can loosen the screws myself, move the blade and retighten? I'm happy to try as I don't want to risk the local guy otherwise he'll put all of the screws in no matter what i ask!

[tstop4me]

Yes, Matrix, and I used a long ruler with a spirit level along blade and it was straight against it, which is why I said it was straight. I checked several times as I thought it looked a bit off, but it's definitely straight.

I asked the fitters about pronation as I assumed I did because of all of the problems. Both said I didn't, and that reinforces what I've been told by other fitters. I think I'm going to try to see a podiatrist to get a proper check. I have done the forward glide test a few times and always the same - totally straight on the right foot, and veering to the right on the left foot.

On the boots I have full temp mount plus one of the front screws as the soles weren't totally flat, so they used those screws to close the gap. You think I can loosen the screws myself, move the blade and retighten? I'm happy to try as I don't want to risk the local guy otherwise he'll put all of the screws in no matter what i ask!

But you still need to check that the sharpening was done right, that the edges are level.  The hollow depth indicator gauge won't work with Matrix; and the two-piece magnetic edge checkers (with a reference horizon) won't work either.  So you need a small machinist's square and two one-piece magnetic edge checkers (I previously posted my el-cheapo DIY version https://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8715.msg104433#msg104433).

Yes.  Assuming you have experience with a screwdriver, go ahead and do it yourself.  Before you move the blade though, use a thin marker or pen to trace the outline of the sole plate and heel plate of the blade onto the sole and heel of the boot; that will give you a record of the initial positions.

Try to do a one-foot straight glide, both forward and backwards.  Also good tests are all four consecutive edges (forward outside, forward inside, backward outside, backward inside).  You can also try a one-foot spin; just don't overdo the power.  If you continue to skate on a temp mount afterwards, I would check the tightness of the screws before each session until you get permanent screws installed.

[Christy]

I'm certainly happy to try myself, and great suggestion about marking the original position. I'll make sure to do that.

So far, with the current mount I've tried each of the following several times with the same outcomes:
Straight forward glide on right foot - totally straight line
Straight forward glide on left foot - curves to the right, almost a curved half circle
Right Inside - properly curved half circle
Left Inside - properly curved half circle
Right Outside - properly curved half circle
Left Outside - straight line then curves to the right, to a curved half circle in the wrong direction if I hold it long enough
One Foot Spin - spin is very slow and I can feel my foot really falling to the inside of the circle, max 3 revs as I'm then pretty much falling over!

I haven't tried anything backwards so far.

[Query]

Christy, with all your boot problems (you've had a lot of bad experiences!), have you decided the skate techs (boot fitters and sharpeners) you have used don't meet your standards?

If your local tech puts in all the screws - definitely doesn't sound like a very good tech.

How did you try to check that the edges were level with the spirit level? I can't figure out any way to do that. I guess you could stand the boot upside down on a flat level surface, but in many cases, the top of the boot is not aligned with your leg or foot. Plus it's actually pretty hard to find a surface that is level - though you could use the spirit level to help you do that.

tstop4me, are all "small machinist's squares" short enough that they won't be obstructed by the parts of the chassis that holds the runners on on Matrix blades? (Of course, if she has first or 3rd generation matrix, with removable runners, she could remove the runners, and apply the square to the runners).

I wonder if to answer that, you need to know what generation Matrix she has. (There have been 3 - the original removable runner ones, then the fixed runner ones, which are now sold at the same time as the RSX later generation removable runners, - which Christy asked about in another thread.) I don't know if the height of the runner that is unobstructed by the chassis is the same for all 3 generations.

I once made do with a cheap plastic square that I cut down to size, on first generation Matrix blades. But that won't work for all plastic squares - some of them don't have a right angle, but have a curve on the inside.

The magnetic levels I've seen only check the level consistency along the blade, not whether there is an overall left-right tilt. But I've used non-magnetic straight edges (or less optimally, Popsicle sticks ) the same way, and just tried to check that the angles were the same on both sides by eye.

Christi could just move the blade, or raise the side of the insole as tstop4me suggests, until she glides straight and on edges the way she wants, and that would probably work. But if the skate tech doesn't sharpen consistently, that would only work until the next sharpening...

[tstop4me]

The magnetic levels I've seen only check the level consistency along the blade, not whether there is an overall left-right tilt. But I've used non-magnetic straight edges (or less optimally, Popsicle sticks ) the same way, and just tried to check that the angles were the same on both sides by eye.

There are two-piece magnetic edge level checkers.  One piece is a graduated reference horizon that attaches to the side of the blade.  The other piece is a measurement piece that attaches across the edges of the blade.  The reference horizon fits on a blade that has flat parallel [ETA: or flat tapered] sides and that has sufficient width of the runner (the width of the runner corresponds to the clearance distance on the side of the blade between the chassis/runner interface and the edges of the runner).  I don't know about the Matrix I and the Matrix RSX with interchangeable runners, but the Matrix with non-interchangeable runners does not have sufficient width of runner.

One example of such a two-piece checker is the Wissota Elite (https://wissota.com/product/elite-edge-checker/).  Bill previously reviewed it here:  https://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8453.50  Reply #54, with caveats in earlier and later replies concerning initial alignment of the reference horizon.

[tstop4me]

tstop4me, are all "small machinist's squares" short enough that they won't be obstructed by the parts of the chassis that holds the runners on on Matrix blades? (Of course, if she has first or 3rd generation matrix, with removable runners, she could remove the runners, and apply the square to the runners).

I wonder if to answer that, you need to know what generation Matrix she has. (There have been 3 - the original removable runner ones, then the fixed runner ones, which are now sold at the same time as the RSX later generation removable runners, - which Christy asked about in another thread.) I don't know if the height of the runner that is unobstructed by the chassis is the same for all 3 generations.

I once made do with a cheap plastic square that I cut down to size, on first generation Matrix blades. But that won't work for all plastic squares - some of them don't have a right angle, but have a curve on the inside.

Are you familiar with an adjustable square in which the blade [ETA:  Here blade refers to the blade of the square, not to the blade of the skate.] is clamped onto the beam?  The clamp can be loosened, the blade can be slid to adjust the distance between the end of the blade and the beam, and the clamp can then be tightened to hold the blade in position.  There is a small, precision version of an adjustable square called a diemakers square; e.g., see https://www.starrett.com/details?p=284193&s=14A-Inch-Reading-Double-Steel-Square.  This can be used if the runner has flat parallel [ETA:  or flat tapered] sides.  A bit tricky if the runner has a narrow width (see my reply above for discussion on the width of a runner).

Alternatively, you can use a small fixed blade square, referenced to the flat of a stanchion or other reference surface on the chassis, instead of the side surface of the runner.  There were previous discussions here:  https://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8632.50 Reply #53 on.

[Christy]

They're second edition Matrix, so the blade is fixed, and I was using the spirit level to check that the blade was straight, not that the sharpening was level. I still need to do that, and have the info that tstop4me has provided, but need to get the equipment.

Query, finding a good skate fitter is challenging! It seems they are somewhat elusive, and even fitters who are highly rated make mistakes sometimes   

[Query]

I hadn't seen the magnetic levels with that extra side piece. That is cool. Simple idea, but some simple ideas are wonderful.

I'd wondered about the adjustable squares - I've seen some for basic woodworking that were a bit too loose to calibrate an accurate enough 90 degrees. But if there are better quality ones, that's wonderful.

I have yet to find a store that sells machinist level tools. I guess most of that must be online - and you have to know what to buy, because other people tell you the stuff is good? And I'm sure you pay high prices for low production quantity specialty goods. Or are there places you can walk in, and buy that sort of thing, at a reasonable price?

[tstop4me]

I have yet to find a store that sells machinist level tools. I guess most of that must be online - and you have to know what to buy, because other people tell you the stuff is good? And I'm sure you pay high prices for low production quantity specialty goods. Or are there places you can walk in, and buy that sort of thing, at a reasonable price?

There are stores that sell precision machinist's tools over the counter.  They will be, e.g., in major metro areas, towns with major industries, and towns with large research universities.  One by me is Burns Factory Supply, E. Hanover, NJ.  They don't have a website.  And large supply houses such as McMaster-Carr have local pickup counters (at least at some of their warehouses).

But such stores sell business-to-business (B2B) or cater to professionals in the trade who know what they want and for whom time is of the essence.  They typically don't have aisles of goods on display for customers to browse; typically just a warehouse with a sales counter.  Entirely different retail experience from Home Depot or Harbor Freight.  Don't expect the guys at the counter to educate you on tools, and don't expect them to open 6 different brands of squares or levels for you to look at.

Pricing is typically at full retail, unless you're a major customer.  Don't expect inflated MSRP with hefty holiday discounts.  My dad, who was a professional machinist, had this pet saying concerning tools:  "Good stuff, no cheap.  Cheap stuff, no good." 

[Query]

There are stores that sell precision machinist's tools over the counter...

Since I pushed this thread a bit off-topic, I've opened another thread:

https://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8868.0

[Bill_S]

I really think that you can tell a lot by a simple Popsicle stick or flat piece of wood pressed down against the edges. While not as sensitive as expensive tools,  you can tell at a glance if something is seriously wrong with edge levelness.

Bad sharpening, uneven edges...



Decent sharpening, level edges

[Query]

I've used other straight edges and rulers, which I trust somewhat more than popsickle sticks. But it amused me to use the latter.

Some people in these forums seemed to think that popsickle sticks were inappropriate. I guess they don't believe that they are manufactured with particularly high consistency. There are things you can do, like flip them around, to check that, but they can also warp.

One also has to be careful with thin steel rulers - they warp easily, and aren't always flat even when new. But one can check both sides against a flat surface, and bend them flat.

For me, tilt consistency is more important than getting an exact right angle. So I like to align two straight edges on different parts of the blade, and move them around, to check that. A bit of a nuisance, because they don't stick.

I've never gotten around to using magnets to hold them in place. And after Kaitsu pointed out that iron filings can stick to magnetized blades, and mess up sharpening, I'm not particularly inclined to try.

[Christy]

Thanks Bill. I'll give that a try.

In the interim I moved the blade. I unscrewed all of the screws and pushed the blade as far as I could to the inside whilst still using the original holes, so not a massive amount, but enough to make some difference.

I'll update the tests below, but a couple of things I noticed since moving the blade is that I feel like there is no support under my left foot (right is fine) and that I feel like I am falling backwards on the blade.

Straight forward glide on right foot - totally straight line
Straight forward glide on left foot - better but still a slight curve to the right curves to the right, almost a curved half circle
Right Inside - properly curved half circle
Left Inside - properly curved half circle
Right Outside - properly curved half circle, can easily do a full circle
Left Outside - a shallow curved half circle if I really force it, but 75% of a half circle is the max straight line then curves to the right, to a curved half circle in the wrong direction if I hold it long enough
One Foot Spin - didn't have a chance to try spin is very slow and I can feel my foot really falling to the inside of the circle, max 3 revs as I'm then pretty much falling over!

[Query]

In the interim I moved the blade. I unscrewed all of the screws and pushed the blade as far as I could to the inside whilst still using the original holes, so not a massive amount, but enough to make some difference.

That's a great quick and dirty technique to achieve your goal.

If you push it too far to the inside, and skate with that long term, there is a possibility, with some types of boots, that that will cause the boot to twist. Because many boots are designed to take the weight down the center. That happened to my old Klingbeil boots - but that might have had something to do with the way Klingbeils were designed.

But that's part of why some of us prefer to put tape under one side of the insole - the side to which you are tending to lean (which causes you to curve in that direction). Of course that assumes there is sufficient space inside your boot to do that. If not, you may instead sand down the other side of the bottom of the insole.

Also, it seems like you are saying just shifting ("offsetting") your blade wasn't quite enough. You can do more with tape.

And many people feel it is easier to spin when the blade is near the centerline of their boot. Reshaping your insole lets you keep it there, yet achieve the same purpose in terms of glides.

You could also 3 dimensionally shape closed cell foam (e.g., from a camping mat - which has the advantage of being skin safe) into your own insole, instead of adding tape. I personally like that a little better. I've done that with a scissors. But at first it is easier to play with tape, so you understand what shape you need.

[Christy]

I am wondering if the reason I feel my foot / sole isn't supported is because of the blade being mounted towards the inside of the sole, but checking my old boots the blade isn't as far to the inside as it has been in the past!
As the blade move has helped I'm planning to try to make small adjustments to the insole to see if I can improve things. I have got some moleskin, as suggested by tstop4me, but it's not padded so will see if I can get some of that.

[tstop4me]

I am wondering if the reason I feel my foot / sole isn't supported is because of the blade being mounted towards the inside of the sole, but checking my old boots the blade isn't as far to the inside as it has been in the past!
As the blade move has helped I'm planning to try to make small adjustments to the insole to see if I can improve things. I have got some moleskin, as suggested by tstop4me, but it's not padded so will see if I can get some of that.

In the interim I moved the blade. I unscrewed all of the screws and pushed the blade as far as I could to the inside whilst still using the original holes, so not a massive amount, but enough to make some difference.

I'll update the tests below, but a couple of things I noticed since moving the blade is that I feel like there is no support under my left foot (right is fine) and that I feel like I am falling backwards on the blade.

On the boots I have full temp mount plus one of the front screws as the soles weren't totally flat, so they used those screws to close the gap.

Christy, nudging the blade slightly to the inside should not cause loss of support and falling backwards.  Now that assumes: (1) Nothing out of whack with the boot and (2) Nothing out of whack with the blade.  But you mentioned that, in addition to the temp screws, the tech also had to install a permanent screw because of substantial mismatch between the blade and the boot.  My guess is that when you removed the permanent screw to adjust the temp mount, you also changed the longitudinal (toe to heel) alignment of the blade with respect to the boot.

Before proceeding, check the boot and blade carefully.  If you're comfortable doing so, I would demount the blade completely and check the boot and blade separately.  Make sure the sole and heel of the boot aren't warped or canted.  Make sure the sides of the runner of the blade are orthogonal to the mounting plates; and, check that the edges are level.  Your tech should have done all this.  But if you're not sure, and the tech is far away, your only recourse is learn to do it yourself. 

Also, get checked out for pronation sooner rather than later. 

[tstop4me]

Christy:

(1) What is the offset of the blade now?  By offset I mean the lateral (inside to outside) separation between the longitudinal axis of the blade and the longitudinal axis of the boot.  Some techs resort to extreme offsets, such that the mounting plates of the blade protrude beyond the sole or heel of the boot.  I don't think that's particularly safe.  I also found that extreme offsets can lead to unstable foot control, particularly bad for spinning.  I personally use a maximum offset of 1/8".  Depending on your current mount, that may require a tech to plug the old holes and drill new ones.

(2) Additional correction can be provided by a corrective insole/footbed/orthotic.  The degree of correction is limited by how much available space you have in your boot.  Ideally, a sports podiatrist with experience in figure skating will fit you for a prescription orthotic.  Unfortunately they are hard to find.  If you do it yourself, beyond tilting the entire insole/footbed, you'll likely need to play around with arch supports and heel wedges.

(3) If (1) and (2) combined are not sufficient, you'll need to shim the blades.  In this case, you'll need to add shims between the mounting plates of the blade and the sole and heel of the boot along the outside of the blade.  Shimming needs to be done carefully to avoid warping the blade.  If you need shims, it's best to have all screws installed to maintain stability.

I have strong pronation and a need a combination of all 3 corrective measures.  I've found that a combination of several moderate corrections is better than any one extreme correction.

[Query]

I am wondering if the reason I feel my foot / sole isn't supported is because of the blade being mounted towards the inside of the sole, but checking my old boots the blade isn't as far to the inside as it has been in the past!e of that.

Tape, an insert, or medically prescribed orthotic solves the support issues. First approximation: try equalizing pressure everywhere on the foot - or at least the bottom. I use cloth athletic tape, which stays in place without shifting. Work incrementally, add a little tape under the insole in the places that have the least pressure.

Maybe you need to overuse your muscles to compensate for the unsupported parts of your foot. May eventually make the foot hurt. I originally had that problem, solved it using tape, later by making my own insoles.

I prefer tape under the insole, because above creates annoying bumps. But flipping the insole sideways reverses left and right!

Tape can be removed, or at least sanded away. Sanding the insole at high pressure points is somewhat irreversible.

Medically trained orthotists (and some podiatrists) who make or prescribe orthopedic shoes and inserts (essentially insoles, but prescribed, and often have layers of closed cell foam; the layer closest to your foot is very thin, approximately matches the firmness of your skin; the one furthest away is more firm and resists permanent compaction longer; in diabetic foot inserts there is often an intermediate layer) can do a very fancy job of this, using good materials, but I think it is worth trying yourself first. I got fairly good results for orthopedic shoes with inserts from one of these clinics. But: you need to tell them the inserts will be in skates, and bring the skates to your session(s). If they know what they are doing, they can make them fit the limited space.

Do you have health insurance? Ask them what they will pay for - perhaps you see a podiatrist first, who will advise you who to see, and make things right with the insurance. But many insurance plans won't pay for athletic gear, though they may pay for the podiatrist. My podiatrist justified my shoes and inserts by claiming I had diabetic feet.

[Kaitsu]

When we are trying to figureout how blades has been mounted, I think some posted pictures would probably tell more than a thousand word.

[tstop4me]

Medically trained orthotists (and some podiatrists) who make or prescribe orthopedic shoes and inserts (essentially insoles, but prescribed, and often have layers of closed cell foam; the layer closest to your foot is very thin, approximately matches the firmness of your skin; the one furthest away is more firm and resists permanent compaction longer; in diabetic foot inserts there is often an intermediate layer) can do a very fancy job of this, using good materials, but I think it is worth trying yourself first. I got fairly good results for orthopedic shoes with inserts from one of these clinics. But: you need to tell them the inserts will be in skates, and bring the skates to your session(s). If they know what they are doing, they can make them fit the limited space.

You need a sports podiatrist (or other medical professional) with specific experience in prescribing orthotics for figure skates.  I have one set of prescription orthotics for walking, a separate pair for running.  Besides differences in materials and geometry (adapted for degree of stress and fit into particular shoes), they are configured to provide different corrections (walking gait is different from running stride).

Foot motion, and requisite correction, in figure skating is radically different from that in walking or running.  Minimal flexing at toe, ball, and arch due to rigid constraints of the boot.  High sensitivity to small angular abnormalities due to skating on a thin blade with two edges.  Significant differences in shoe/boot designs too.  E.g., orthotics for walking or running typically have a heel cup to position the heel.  But a figure skate boot typically has a substantial heel cup to position the heel.  You don't want two different heel cups struggling for control.  So you need a professional with experience in all these different factors.

My podiatrist is an excellent podiatrist when it comes to prescribing orthotics for walking and running.  But he admitted that he had no experience with figure skates.  I couldn't find an experienced professional in my area, so I ended up making my own skating orthotics. 

[Christy]

I have extremely poor health insurance, so orthotics would be on my dime, and there is literally one podiatrist who basically treats corns, and another who doesn't even seem to do that. I do know a really good ski boot fitter, but he has limited materials and uses off the shelf insoles as a base, and they are all too thick for skates (we've tried).

tstop4me the blade is offset to the inside of the sole, so not central, and the heel is at the edge of the boot heel, but the blade isn't protruding the sole at all. In the past one skate tech has mounted blades that protrude a fair amount on the inside at the front of the boot.

Moving the blade to the current position definitely helped, but further adjustments would cause it to protrude which I don't want. I'm hoping that I can fine tune it using tape / moleskin, even if it means a lot of trial and error. I have some arch supports I can cut down, and some thin moleskin, plus KT tape if that could be used?