skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: Skylar on September 23, 2015, 12:56:58 AM
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Hi everyone,
Just bought my first pair of skates, and realised I have very limited sharpening options here. I asked my rink's pro shop about the hollow they use for sharpening, and was met with "Hollow??" The lady said they use a machine to sharpen skates (it's not in the shop though), and the options were "sharp", or "very sharp" ???
I was thinking it may be better to do it myself, and am considering the Pro-Filer from Edge Specialties. Can I use this, and only this, for sharpening my skates, considering that I likely wouldn't want to do anything more complicated like changing the rocker profile etc.?
Also, has anyone recently (2015) ordered this product from their online store? How long did they take to ship it to you?
Thank you!
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Hello. I have the Pro-Filer and use it exclusively to sharpen my figure skates. I have been using it for a year and a half and it does a good job for me. I think this would definitely be an option for you if you don't want to roll the dice with the sharpener at the rink. From what you said, I would not hand my skates over to them.
I can't remember how long it took to receive the product after ordering - maybe 10 business days or so.
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Thank you Matsumoto, your reply was very helpful to me :)
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While you are learning to use it, don't expect much help from other skaters or your coach. Most people don't think you can sharpen your own skates well - and you may make mistakes at first.
I haven't ordered recently. I've had mine for over a decade. I think it's a good product, though the instructions are pretty minimal - see mine (http://mgrunes.com/boots/BootBlade.html). But, as someone else pointed out in a another thread, if you order the 7/16" ROH, they actually ship 3/8" (I think), because the manufacturer doesn't think the difference is significant. Don't forget to trace your blade profile for later reference, and maybe use water instead of oil so it doesn't create a mess in your skate bag.
If you happen to use 1/2" ROH, used Berghman skate sharpeners (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=Berghman%20skate%20sharpener&clk_rvr_id=900178010896&mfe=search) cost much less. They have an adjustable width gap which works better with some blades than the Pro-filer (though you can custom-order Pro-filers for specific blade widths), and that leaves room to tape the part that slides against your blades, so they don't scratch on the sides. (Scratches slow glide, though you can lubricate the gap on either sharpener to reduce scratching.) They made them from the 1920s to around 1950 - the most recent ones have the least crumbly sharpening stones, a bit of a problem with the earliest ones. Not as pretty as the Pro-filer. You will need to order a fine grit flat sharpening stone separately for deburring (or straightening over-burrs) - one is included with the Pro-Filer figure sharpening kit. They were very good professional quality tools.
Do you use Ultima Matrix or Paramount blades? In either case, you may find you need to file either tool down, because those blades don't have as high an area of constant blade width for the tool to slide along.
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I used to use a Pro-Filer exclusively (no professional sharpenings) for about three years. I did a blade tracing at the beginning and there was no change. I no longer do this, but it worked well for the time that I did it.
A couple things - I had to change from a 7/16" to a 3/8" (changed by professional then kept up with Pro-Filer). I use that grind to this day out of habit. Also - I made a jig to keep the tool square. The tool is a little bigger than the width of the blade even with the tape (I have Pattern 99), so there was a little wobble and I was concerned about the wobble. I put a block of wood down that I could press the side of the tool up against to keep it aligned to the center of the blade.
I no longer do this because I moved and never set the jig back up and now I just take the skates to a skate sharpener. But the blades were sharp enough to hold a good, long, deep edge and save some landings. They were never "super sharp" the way they are right after a professional sharpener though. I had to do it once every 10-12 hours of skating, so maybe twice as often as a professional sharpening? YMMV. People didn't believe me that I could be okay without a professional, especially since the tool really isn't marketed for that purpose, but it really did work. The nice thing is you don't go through the cycle of slightly too sharp to good to slightly too dull. There's just always "good enough."
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Thank you both for your detailed and very helpful replies! Much appreciated.
I can't tell you how relieved I am to hear good reviews of the Pro-Filer and Berghman. They're affordable, have proven to be functional and reliable - what more can I ask for? I don't mind the extra time and effort on my part, rather that than $15-20 for questionable sharpening (Mark IV blades as I'm just a beginner :D).
So now I have to work out the best way to buy and ship one of these to Asia.
For anyone else who's interested in the Pro-Filer, I found two online stores - Edge Specialties and Diamond Cut Edges. The latter is a Canadian third-party seller, site is pretty informative though more geared towards hockey. It has a cleaning guide that looks useful: http://diamondcutedges.com/docs/cleaning_and_maintaining.pdf
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They were never "super sharp" the way they are right after a professional sharpener though.
Some professional sharpeners create super-sharp edges, some don't. It depends a lot on how fine a grit wheel they use, how and if they lubricate the wheel and the blades, and the tools and techniques they use to deburr or polish and re-point the sharpening burrs.
The same is true for the Pro-filer.
One downside to the Berghman tool is that it used a relatively coarse grit stone, which can't produce super-sharp edges. If you want your blades super-sharp, it may not be the best choice.
I used to keep my blades super-sharp, probably sharper than can be produced by any of the wheels available for commercial powered sharpening machines, but that meant I had to be very careful with my blades - e.g., I couldn't take even one step off-ice, without bending and messing up the edges. It also meant I had to do frequent touch-up sharpenings. Now I don't make it that sharp, and have learned to skate using techniques that compensate for less sharp blades. I can safely take several steps onto the rubber mats used at most skating rinks, and I only sharpen every 40 hours or so.
One professional skate tech I know deliberately dulls his edges to the extant that his customers don't have to change their skating technique just after sharpening, unless they ask otherwise. He has a lot of high profile customers. OTOH, there are other well respected skate techs that other high profile customers choose because they produce very sharp edges. To each his/her own. :)
Good luck!
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I'm also interested in the Pro-Filer. I have a follow-up question. Has anyone here used it with stainless blades? My understanding is that stainless blades are harder than carbon steel blades. My current sharpening guy has told me that even with a professional sharpening machine, it's more difficult to sharpen stainless blades. I wonder if the Pro-Filer will handle them.
More specific question. I'm considering switching from Wilson Coronation Ace (carbon steel) to Eclipse Aurora (440C stainless). It's my understanding that the Eclipse blades come from the factory unsharpened so that the user can pick a custom hollow. I assume this means that the blade ships with a flat grind. Anyone ever use the Pro-Filer to form a hollow from scratch on a flat grind? I've been using a 7/16" ROH.
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I have used it on both stainless steel (Ultima Matrix I Dance, Synchro and Supreme), and high carbon steel (MK Dance, Wilson Coronation Ace) blades. (BTW upper end stainless steel figure skating blades use a "high carbon stainless steel".) The only major difference that I've noticed is that my stainless steel blades stay sharp longer, though and I sometimes fail to oil my blades after every use, which must affect edge lifetime. I also admit I haven't counted strokes to compare sharpening speeds. I wouldn't pick my blades by how much time they take to sharpen.
The most rust-resistant stainless steels, such as some marine grade stainless steels, can't be made very hard, and wouldn't hold an edge long for skating. And the hardest steels, probably too brittle for figure skating, aren't stainless. But I THINK both "high carbon" and "stainless" steels for upper end figure skating blades achieve an edge hardness of about 60, though I don't have comprehensive measurements to support that.
OTOH, I'm told by a reputable skate tech that Titanium Beach blades are several times slower to sharpen on a Blade Master powered sharpening machine. I haven't sharpened any titanium blades, don't know whether this is true of other titanium alloy blades (e.g., MK and Wilson Revolution blades, Riedel Eclipse Titanium blades), and don't know whether the issue was caused by hardness, melting point, or some other property.
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OTOH, I'm told by a reputable skate tech that Titanium Beach blades are several times slower to sharpen on a Blade Master powered sharpening machine. I haven't sharpened any titanium blades, don't know whether this is true of other titanium alloy blades (e.g., MK and Wilson Revolution blades, Riedel Eclipse Titanium blades), and don't know whether the issue was caused by hardness, melting point, or some other property.
Thanks very much for the account of your experience with the Pro-Filer on stainless blades.
This is a bit off topic, but I was puzzled by your comments on titanium alloy blades. I googled "Titanium Beach" and got back an old post on this forum. They do appear to be a titanium alloy. But the Riedell Eclipse website explicitly states that their "Titanium" blades use a titanium alloy for the body with a stainless steel runner (in the lingo of hockey blades). The Wilson Revolution website is not as explicit: "Revolution is the pinnacle in blade technology combining the traditional merits of a steel blade alongside the benefits of weight reduction and flexibility through the use of carbon composites." Do you have further info on the runners in the Revolution blades? Advanced skaters I know that skate on Gold Seals are die-hard traditionalists, so I haven't come across anyone with direct experience with Revolution.
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Oops on the Eclipse!
At one point, HD Sports (MK/Wilson) Revolution blades were advertised as being titanium. I'm not sure if the advertisement was on HD Sports' own sites. I can't find it now. Do you have information to the contrary?
One could call MK Sports to ask - but when I tried that once, they never got back to me.
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Oops on the Eclipse!
At one point, HD Sports (MK/Wilson) Revolution blades were advertised as being titanium. I'm not sure if the advertisement was on HD Sports' own sites. I can't find it now. Do you have information to the contrary?
One could call MK Sports to ask - but when I tried that once, they never got back to me.
I have no further info other than what's posted on the Wilson site. I would think that if the runners were fabricated from stainless steel or titanium alloy, their marketing department would brag about it. Otherwise, their somewhat vague statement leaves the impression on me that the metal portion of the Revolution model is the same carbon steel as the corresponding traditional model. I've emailed Wilson via their website for clarification. I'll post if I receive an answer from them.
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Alrighty, resurrecting an old thread, just because I don't think we need more cluttering up the archives.
This summer, I set myself up with a Pro-filer 3/8. I've used it twice and am happy with the results....EXCEPT, the tape. OMG the tape.
I don't mind putting it on like some others have mentioned, but the supplied masking tape is too wide, catching the sharpening apparati. I've tried my daughters washi tape, and its a little better, but is still stripped off by the pro-filer. Don't think I can find anything thinner.
I have standard blades (CorDance....normal width, no fancy-pants honing or dovetailing, not matrix or anything else).
This time around, after the machine stripped off the tape I tried oiling the sides. Seems that's also been mentioned on one of these pro-filer threads as well.
Does anyone else have this problem? What solutions (if any) have you come up with? I will NOT put my blades back in the hands of the parents who sharpen at the rink. I will learn to live with the unslightly scratches-that-no-one-but-me-sees, but oh are they driving me nuts.
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I use ordinary 3M Scotch tape. Even it will sometimes be abraded by the tool. When taping, I extend the tape beyond the ends of the blade and pinch the ends together. This makes a little flap sticking out from the end of the blade, so I trim the excess flap to within 5-10mm so it doesn't get caught in the tool. It leaves the tape stuck to itself, centered out of the way.
Like you, the taping is the part that makes me impatient, and I've also done it tapeless with fine scratches resulting - as you noted. I consider this to be a cosmetic issue. I omit the tape when I'm feeling impatient. Even worse is trying to remove stuck-down, oily tape afterward. I use a single-edge razor blade to assist in removal.
FWIW, I bought my Aces new in 2007, and they have been hand sharpened only. There's still plenty of life left, scratches or not.
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Alrighty, resurrecting an old thread, just because I don't think we need more cluttering up the archives.
This summer, I set myself up with a Pro-filer 3/8. I've used it twice and am happy with the results....EXCEPT, the tape. OMG the tape.
I don't mind putting it on like some others have mentioned, but the supplied masking tape is too wide, catching the sharpening apparati. I've tried my daughters washi tape, and its a little better, but is still stripped off by the pro-filer. Don't think I can find anything thinner.
I have standard blades (CorDance....normal width, no fancy-pants honing or dovetailing, not matrix or anything else).
This time around, after the machine stripped off the tape I tried oiling the sides. Seems that's also been mentioned on one of these pro-filer threads as well.
Does anyone else have this problem? What solutions (if any) have you come up with? I will NOT put my blades back in the hands of the parents who sharpen at the rink. I will learn to live with the unslightly scratches-that-no-one-but-me-sees, but oh are they driving me nuts.
I'll give you a more detailed summary of my trials-and-tribulations with tape later. But first, you mentioned that you have Coronation Dance blades. Do you have a micrometer or caliper to measure the thickness of the blade (measured across the chrome-plated flat sides of the blade just above the chrome relief; "above" means away from the chrome relief towards the sole and heel plates)? I believe that most dance blades are thinner than freestyle blades. The standard Pro-Filer kit for figure skates has a guide block in which the guide slot has a fixed width of 0.170". For proper sharpening, the thickness of the taped-up blade needs to be ~0.165". Freestyle blades I've owned and measured range in thickness from 0.150" to 0.165". I measured a dance blade (used by a friend; I think it was an Eclipse) once, and it was only 0.125".
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No, I don't have calipers or any thing that will measure to micrometer level accuracy. I think the CorDance blades are basically chopped off CorAce's. They're not slimline for sure. But even with the slimline blades, I think those are slim only at the chrome plated section.
CorDance are entry level dance blades, based on an entry-level competition Freestyle blade. These should not be wider than anything else (of course, there is the MK/Wilson machining consistencies, or lack thereof to contend with).
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I use ordinary 3M Scotch tape. Even it will sometimes be abraded by the tool. When taping, I extend the tape beyond the ends of the blade and pinch the ends together. This makes a little flap sticking out from the end of the blade, so I trim the excess flap to within 5-10mm so it doesn't get caught in the tool. It leaves the tape stuck to itself, centered out of the way.
Like you, the taping is the part that makes me impatient, and I've also done it tapeless with fine scratches resulting - as you noted. I consider this to be a cosmetic issue. I omit the tape when I'm feeling impatient. Even worse is trying to remove stuck-down, oily tape afterward. I use a single-edge razor blade to assist in removal.
FWIW, I bought my Aces new in 2007, and they have been hand sharpened only. There's still plenty of life left, scratches or not.
I'll try the scotch. I know this is only a cosmetic first-world issue. It's just a thing. No one but me will ever even notice this.
Good to hear about the longevity. I just don't trust the sharpeners here after what they did to my old blades. Luckily my tech stateside fixed it, but when he showed me what they did.......nope, no more.
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I use water rather than oil - both on the bottom and on the sides. Oil is more durable, so you may not need to re-oil as you work, but if you carry oil in your bag, it can spill or leak and make a real mess, as I learned from experience. Perhaps you could use an oiled cloth - I've not tried it. An oiled cloth is also a good way to coat the blades for rust proofing, especially if you are not going to use them for a few days.
Also, for reasons beyond my knowledge, oil is generally considered to be problematical on diamond dust stones, like one the "coarse" Pro-Filer stone. (The "fine" Pro-Filer stone does not use diamond dust, but I still use water.) (AFAICT, most modern sharpening "stones" aren't really natural stones, but are an abrasive powder embedded in an adhesive.)
Of course, water wouldn't work very well at machine sharpening speeds (would probably boil away), but is often used in a variety of hand sharpening situations. E.g., some fine woodworkers use it to sharpen their tools. Water and oil don't mix well, and if you have got oil into your stone, you may want to wash it out thoroughly with water.
Generally, I only use tape if the tool gap is too wide, making it too hard to keep the blade centered on the "stone". (I don't have any side honed blades that need tape to compensate.) Water is a good enough lubricant to avoid scratches.
You lubricate the sides to prevent scratches, which can at least theoretically slow down the blade by creating friction. You lubricate the bottom for the same reason, and also to create a cleaner cut, just like you might lubricate a metal working machine tool.
If you use tape:
Are you putting the tape on the blades or the tool? If on the tool, you should figure out a good way to put pressure on the tape, so it sticks well. E.g., put a little extra tape on the blade, so it is a very tight squeeze, and leave it there a minute. BTW some tapes, like plastic electrical tape, are made with adhesives that are only fully activated when you stretch the tape.
It never occurred to me to leave tape on the blades long term. If that is what you are doing, and you worry about appearance, I guess you could use a tape which doesn't show too well like 1/8" or 1/4" wide aluminum foil tape. A gold foil tape might even look pretty, in which case it could be wider. :) Or maybe some other pretty colored metallic tape. Sort of like a custom colored blade, but done by you. You could even make one side of your blade one color, and the other side different, so it flashes alternate colors as you turn. But that draws attention to the blade, so be neat.
I no longer use tape to center the blade, to compensate for any asymmetry in the tool. Instead, I take a few strokes in one direction, turn around the tool or the skate, and take a few more strokes, etc. That evens things out.
What ROH do you use? If it happens to be 1/2", you can use one of the old Berghman Skate Sharpeners (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fspt=1&_sop=12&_mPrRngCbx=1&_nkw=berghman+skate+sharpener&_sacat=0&_from=R40&_fosrp=1) which were much better designed than Pro-Filer, because you can adjust the gap. (Though I admit the Pro-Filer looks a lot prettier.) Then you can leave the tape on the tool very easily, because you have better access to the bare tool, and can push the tape on more strongly, and use cloth athletic tape or even duct tape, which doesn't come off so easily. Also, you can place the stone right at one end of the holder, which makes it easier to control and avoid hitting your toe pick, though I would still tape the toe pick to protect it. The old Berghman stones were fairly crumbly, especially if you get a 1930's era tool. And they were very coarse, which is great if you want to work fast, but may not create as nice an edge. Since you already have a Pro-Filer you can take the stone out of the Pro-Filer, and put it at one end of the Berghman (the Berghman was designed for a longer stone).
If you don't happen to use 1/2" ROH, you are stuck with the Pro-Filer. The only other commercially-made high quality skate hollow cutting tools I know of are designed for hockey blades, which are much thinner.
Anyway, I hope you recorded your rocker profile, by photocopying or tracing the blade. Even hand sharpening will eventually alter the profile, if you aren't careful. Also, be sure to re-emphasize the sweet spot(s) (point(s) up where the rocker radius changes.) once in a while, so you can continue to feel it. It is possible that on a Coronation Ace blade, there are two sweet spots up front, separating 3 rocker radii.
The pro shop might not appreciate you showing other people at the rink that you can sharpen blades. Sharpening is most of how they make a living. :( On the other hand, it is another service you can offer your students - quietly.
A micrometer or precision calipers isn't all that useful on a parallel-side ground blade. Your blade either fits the tool gap width, or it doesn't. It doesn't matter why. However, if you are curious, it lets you measure how much metal you are taking off with each sharpening - though, you probably won't take off much, especially when using the fine grain stone. If you sharpen reasonably often, a minute or so of strokes with the fine grain stone may be all you need. In fact, a lot of the time, you aren't actually trying to make a new edge, but are just straightening and polishing and cleaning the old one - the other guys posting here have talked about using a steel instead of an abrasive stone to do that, and remove even less steel.
Anyway, I hope you enjoy playing with your new tool, and that it works as well for you as when you had an expert to work on your blades.
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I'll try the scotch. I know this is only a cosmetic first-world issue. It's just a thing. No one but me will ever even notice this.
Good to hear about the longevity. I just don't trust the sharpeners here after what they did to my old blades. Luckily my tech stateside fixed it, but when he showed me what they did.......nope, no more.
Here are some various tips:
(1) Before taping, make sure the portions of the sides of the blade along which the guide block slides are free of burrs. Especially if the chrome plating has been previously scratched (either during skating or during previous sharpenings), you may have burrs; even minor burrs will cause the tape to snag when you slide the guide block over it. If you have burrs, polish them away with extra fine grit sandpaper (600 grit or finer) or an extra fine grit whetstone (such as a hard Arkansas stone).
(2) Before applying tape, make sure the sides of the blade are clean: free of particles and oil. Trapped particles will cause the tape to snag; and oil will cause the tape not to stick properly. That's a problem with using oil over the tape. If the tape snags, and you need to re-tape, you need to clean up all that oil before re-taping.
(3) The as-supplied masking tape is too thick for some blades; also, the surface is a bit rough. I tried the Scotch Magic Tape suggested by Bill, but was not happy with it. It's a cheap commodity product meant for office use, of course; so I shouldn't have high expectations for it for this application. It typically has bubbles and seams that cause it to snag, and the adhesive isn't very strong. I've tried various other tapes. My current tape of choice is an industrial polyimide tape (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01GUFMBVY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1). I happened to buy the 1" wide tape, but you can buy narrower rolls. It is strong, uniform, has a smooth surface, and has good adhesion (without being overly difficult to remove). I improve the adhesion by first applying the tape, smoothing it down, trimming it to size (see below), warming it with a hairdryer, then smoothing it down again. If you have problems with the Scotch Magic Tape, you may want to try it, if it's not too thick for your blades (see below).
(4) Since tape is compressible, thickness measurements are highly dependent on the measuring instrument. I have a low-pressure thickness gauge. It's equipped with a standard ball tip instead of a flat disc tip typically used for compressible materials. However, it's good enough for our purposes. Thickness was measured with the tape adhered directly to the measurement base and smoothed down, just as if it were on a blade; measurement was taken after the reading stabilized.
Masking tape (as supplied with the Pro-Filer): 0.0032"
Scotch Magic Tape: 0.0016"
Polyimide tape (cited above): 0.0026"
(5) For the Pro-Filer designed for figure skates, the width of the slot of the guide block is 0.170". A good target clearance between the taped-up blade (tape on both sides) and the guide slot is 0.005"; i.e., target thickness of taped-up blade is 0.165". This reduces the chances of snagging the tape, while controlling the degree of wobble and maintaining proper centering. Unfortunately, achieving this target is not always possible, depending on the variation in thickness of the blade along the length of the blade (and I'm talking about blades with nominally parallel edges) and on thicknesses of suitable tape. If you know someone with a micrometer or caliper, check the thickness uniformity of your blades. It can save you a lot of grief. It will also let you know the proper thickness of tape to apply.
(6) The blade has a curved profile (toe to heel), whereas the tape is straight. I believe most people apply the tape such as not to extend past the blade edge at any point. I apply the tape initially such that the tape extends past the blade edge and past the drag pick and heel. I then use a new single-edge razor blade (must be real sharp) to trim the tape to conform to the blade edge exactly: apply the tape to one side and trim; then apply the tape to the other side and trim.
Hope this helps! Good luck!
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Most of the skate techs using high end machine tools in pro shops aren't this careful! Even some of the best often don't use a polishing oil when they sharpen, and sometimes scratch the sides of the blades, and they've got steel filings all over their machines. (It's hard not to. The whole point of a commercial shop is make a profit by sharpening blades in less than a minute or so. Even the best highest paid most respected tech I've seen averages only about 5 minutes/pair. Doesn't leave time to clean up the equipment between every sharpening.) Yes, we should try to do better than most of them, and I try to, but it may be OK to do only about as well as the best pros.
:)
(2) Before applying tape, make sure the sides of the blade are clean: free of particles and oil. Trapped particles will cause the tape to snag; and oil will cause the tape not to stick properly. That's a problem with using oil over the tape. If the tape snags, and you need to re-tape, you need to clean up all that oil before re-taping.
Sounds like another reason to prefer water over oil. Doesn't leave a mess, and evaporates away. Though I suppose if I wanted to be really careful not to leave even a few slight mineral deposit spots, distilled or deionized water would be better - but that is going too far. Tap water works pretty well. :)
Since tape is compressible, thickness measurements are highly dependent on the measuring instrument.
I've been using a micrometer to estimate how much metal I remove per sharpening - obviously I want to remove as little as possible consistent with creating a good edge, so the blades will last for a long time. Also, to try to figure out what is happening when I repoint and polish the edge. But it is hard to get good, consistent measurements with the tools I bought.
Yes, this is a bit off topic, but I have problems getting consistent measures using a micrometer even on flat metal, like the sides of my skate blades (and I am fairly careful not to scratch them, and of course I clean them before doing such measurements) - by several times .0001 inches at the very best. Is that normal, or is my micrometer (an old mechanical model, with vernier scales, bought used) worn out? I try to use a very light touch, and have tried re-measuring the exact same spot, but the the finest dials are geared very low, so they have a huge mechanical advantage. The vernier scales can carefully be read to about .0001", so I thought it would be accurate and especially that it would be consistent to that level - is that a bad assumption?
What accuracy and consistency levels would a really high quality micrometer give on good quality steel like high end skate blades, measured very carefully? Is there a better tool for this sort of thing?
My calipers are a lost cause. They came from Harbour Freight (not exactly top grade machine tools) and have a dial marked to .01", readable to .001" or .002". Not good enough to be useful.
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For a good resource for micrometer info, go to http://www.longislandindicator.com/p29.html (http://www.longislandindicator.com/p29.html)
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Most of the skate techs using high end machine tools in pro shops aren't this careful! Even some of the best often don't use a polishing oil when they sharpen, and sometimes scratch the sides of the blades, and they've got steel filings all over their machines. (It's hard not to. The whole point of a commercial shop is make a profit by sharpening blades in less than a minute or so. Even the best highest paid most respected tech I've seen averages only about 5 minutes/pair. Doesn't leave time to clean up the equipment between every sharpening.) Yes, we should try to do better than most of them, and I try to, but it may be OK to do only about as well as the best pros.
Remember: The Pro-Filer uses the sides of the blades as reference surfaces, as well as gliding surfaces, for the guide block; hence the condition of the sides of the blades is critical for its operation. For a commercial sharpening machine used in a pro shop, this is not the case. For many, not all, machines (the Incredible Edger being a notable exception), the grinding wheel is fixed with reference to a flatbed. The blade is clamped in a skate holder, which has adjustable tilt and height adjustments, that glides along the flatbed. Proper sharpening calls for the tech to align the skate holder properly and to keep the bottom of the skate holder and the top of the flatbed free of debris. Not all techs do.
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Loops: I hope you are happy with the answers you got on taping - and I hope you are convinced that lubrication is good too, though I don't know if you will accept my claim that water may be better than oil for this application. Are you confident you can sharpen as well as your previous skate tech?
tstop4me: Yes - but on the commercial skate sharpening machine tools, a clamp has to be tightened onto the blade. On figure skating blades, they often often use a special gig that tighten quite tightly, in order to straighten the blade while it is sharpened - which helps create uniform edge heights on slightly warped blades. If there are filings on the clamp, the blade can still be scratched a bit. (On the Pro-Filer or Berghman tools, you don't need a clamp, because the cylinder isn't all that long, and it moves to follow the warp - at the price of sliding along the surface as you note.)
Bill_S - thanks for the micrometer link, which was informative, though it doesn't answer my consistency (repeatability) question. The ratchet stop mechanism, which mine doesn't have, sounds like a good way to increase repeatability. However, reading something else, I realize that thermal expansion of the tool and the blade could be a problem for my before-and-after-sharpening measurements.
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Query, here's some data for you.
Measurement unit: inch
Reference sample: Starrett-Webber Croblox (chromium carbide) rectangular gauge block, thickness 0.125 (+/-5 microinch under specified controlled conditions)
Tool T1: Starrett 230 mechanical micrometer, with ratchet click stop, resolution 0.0001 (via Vernier)
Tool T2: Mitutoyo 500-321 electronic digital caliper, with friction release thumb roller, resolution 0.0005
Tool T3: Ono Sokki EG-233 electronic digital linear gauge, with standard ball tip and lift lever, mounted on a ST-022 bench stand, resolution 0.00001
These are all ~1990 vintage tools in good working order that haven’t been calibrated for a long time; but you are mainly interested in repeatability, rather than absolute accuracy. There are better electronic gauges now on the market, but the Starrett mechanical micrometer is still in current production (a real work horse; assuming quality has been maintained).
Ten measurements with each tool. Number in () indicate number of measurements with the following value.
T1: (eight) 0.1250; (1) 0.1251; (1) 0.1252
T2: (5) 0.1250; (5) 0.1255
T3: (eight) 0.12504; (2) 0.12508
[(eight) with the number 8 got converted into an emoji (8) by the forum software; so I spelled it out.]
Note: For measurements with a resolution of 0.001 or better, using contact instruments:
(a) The contact surfaces of the measurement instrument and the sample must be clean.
(b) The contact area between the contact surfaces of the measurement instrument and the sample must be consistent and stable.
(c) The contact force between the contact surfaces of the measurement instrument and the sample must be consistent and stable.
(d) Environmental conditions can affect measurements.
To satisfy (b) and (c), the choice of measurement instrument from best to worst is T3, T1, T2. Note that T3 is a bench instrument. Portable linear gauges are available, but they can be tricky to use. In practice, with a wide range of samples, a micrometer with a ratchet stop provides a more consistent contact area and a more consistent contact force than a caliper with a friction release thumb roller.
ETA: If you want accurate and reproducible measurements on samples with complex geometries (such as blade edges), you'll need to pay special attention to the shapes of the contact surfaces of the measurement instruments. You may also need special mounting fixtures to hold the measurement instrument and the sample. You may also need to re-evaluate whether contact measurement instruments will do what you want; or whether non-contact (such as optical) measurement instruments are more appropriate.
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Sounds like another reason to prefer water over oil. Doesn't leave a mess, and evaporates away. Though I suppose if I wanted to be really careful not to leave even a few slight mineral deposit spots, distilled or deionized water would be better - but that is going too far. Tap water works pretty well. :)
I assume you take special precautions to keep water from dripping down the sides of the blade and getting underneath the mounting plates. Is that correct?
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Thanks! Wow. I hadn't realized a .00001 inch precision was possible in a mechanical instrument. Defintiely a couple cuts above what I find at Harbour Freight. Though odd that it jumped .00004 inch units in your tests.
I assume you take special precautions to keep water from dripping down the sides of the blade and getting underneath the mounting plates. Is that correct?
I seal the mount-to-boot interface, and the outsoles in general, with Sno-Seal. (I really should try Silicone.) After all, skating makes blades and the bottom of boots wet too.
And if I don't skate immediately afterwards, I dry off the blades, mounting screws and boots after sharpening, just as I would after skating.
But you make me wonder - should I wax or otherwise seal the tops of the mounting screws too? Because even good quality stainless steel screws eventually rust. So I will in the future.
I still haven't tried your idea of using a knife "steel" instead of the Pro-Filer in between sharpenings, to further increase blade lifetime.
It would be so cool to have a good enough microscope to see what actually happens during sharpening. The good ones are too expensive just for curiosity. I guess a good quality optical comparator with a length scale, or maybe an inspection microscope, could show me a lot more than the cheap microscopes I bought. If I put identifiable reference marks near the edge before sharpening, it might be a much better way of seeing what was going on than using a micrometer.
Of course, I would need a lot fancier equipment to measure the effects of sharpening, e.g., drag, noise, skid-resistance, and predictability, while moving on the ice.
But this is way off-topic. Loops probably just wants to sharpen well - she doesn't need to know edge nanostructure, and she is probably a good enough skater to be able to feel the effects of good vs poor sharpening, without the need for objective measurement.
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But this is way off-topic. Loops probably just wants to sharpen well - she doesn't need to know edge nanostructure,......
Haha this is true, but you guys are clearly having so much fun discussing it, that it's amusing. The only thing I can discuss structurally at a micro level (not even nano) is the anatomy of flower ovaries and fruits. Clearly not a subject for this forum!
In terms of tape, I don't actually mind taping the blades, just highly irritated that the tool can't glide over it AND rips it off. Next time I try sharpening, I'll try using good old scotch. Maybe lubricating myself with the other kind of scotch during the process. Might make the tape thing less frustrating if the tape scotch rips off like the masking tape. In terms of blade lubrication, I understand physics enough to recognize that water will serve my purposes just fine, and very well may give that a go next time.
It's not saying much, but I DO trust myself FAR more than the rink sharpeners. In general, they don't even know what grind they're giving people. There's a chart on the wall showing what mark on the pin (sorry, don't know the anatomy of a blademaster) they need to use for certain levels. I ask for a 3/8"grind, and I may as well be speaking ancient hebrew. Given that my last sharpening at the rink was was so deep it was off the scales, causing my US skate tech to GIVE me an ROH gauge, it'll take a super desperate situation for me to even think about trusting them again. I think I'm glad I don't know what they did to the profile of those blades. My skate tech in the US is a master, and I am totally and utterly spoiled by him.
If this pro-filer thing can keep my edges as sharp as I like them without me destroying them, I'm already better off. I can even learn to live with the scratches produced by the tools...... if I have to. I won't go down without a fight though!
Thanks for y'alls input. I'll check back in next time I sharpen. Until then, have at the nanostructure of blade edges. These forums are a place to have fun.
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My skate sharpener don't come 'round these parts no more, so this summer I followed in your skate steps and bought a 3/8" pro-filer. It was a little pricey, but I've now broken even since sharpenings cost $25-30 and I've used it 3 times since purchasing.
The kit is really nice - the bag holds everything and it saved me the trouble of finding the "perfect bag." (I would have searched high and low while spending way too much time and money on the thing.) I keep the kit in the garage on our pegboard because I prop the boot over the vice on our workbench to do the sharpenings.
I added an old, clean chamois cloth, which I use to wipe off the oil/grit after sharpenings. To my mind, it protects my hands and fingers more than the towel that came with the kit.
Thanks for the Scotch tape tip - it does work better than the masking tape. If I take it off carefully after sharpening the first blade, I can reuse part of it on the second one.
My kit has two stones, but no honing oil. I substituted some light sewing machine oil and it seems to work fine. (I found a real Singer Sewing Machine store on the Outer Banks and just HAD to buy something to show my support.)
I've been cleaning the stones after use with a small steel brush made for paint removal. Doesn't seem to harm the surface, just brushes away the whatever-bill-calls-it from inside. I turn and brush a few times.
I used to side-stone my blades when I was desperate for a sharpening, but this is better. It sharpens that evil little space behind the toepick better, imo. I hate having that flat spot on the blade because I demonstrate things at slow speed and the dullness makes me slip sideways.
Thanks for all the info and advice, everyone!
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No oil or cutting fluid came with your kit?
That's too bad. I wouldn't be surprised if shipping regulations made it impractical.
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How much oil should I use and when? (Just to make sure I'm doing it right.)
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How much oil should I use and when? (Just to make sure I'm doing it right.)
I use one drop applied directly to the stone between each pass (about a dozen strokes per pass). I do wipe the oil from the blade between each pass using paper towels.
This is the bottle of oil that came with several of my Pro-Filer sets. I have never completely emptied one, but if I did, I'd reach for Norton Sharpening Stone Oil...
https://www.amazon.com/Norton-Abrasives-07660787940-Sharpening-Stone/dp/B000I1AVDW/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=norton+sharpening+oil&qid=1569430596&sr=8-5 (https://www.amazon.com/Norton-Abrasives-07660787940-Sharpening-Stone/dp/B000I1AVDW/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=norton+sharpening+oil&qid=1569430596&sr=8-5)
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/pro_filer_oil-3-edit-800px.jpg)
I do not oil the sides. I don't need to.
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My skate sharpener don't come 'round these parts no more, so this summer I followed in your skate steps and bought a 3/8" pro-filer. It
My kit has two stones, but no honing oil. I substituted some light sewing machine oil and it seems to work fine. (I found a real Singer Sewing Machine store on the Outer Banks and just HAD to buy something to show my support.)
Honing oil is still listed as a component of the kit. I would email them and let them know that your kit was missing the item.
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This is the bottle of oil that came with several of my Pro-Filer sets. I have never completely emptied one, but if I did, I'd reach for Norton Sharpening Stone Oil...
https://www.amazon.com/Norton-Abrasives-07660787940-Sharpening-Stone/dp/B000I1AVDW/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=norton+sharpening+oil&qid=1569430596&sr=8-5 (https://www.amazon.com/Norton-Abrasives-07660787940-Sharpening-Stone/dp/B000I1AVDW/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=norton+sharpening+oil&qid=1569430596&sr=8-5)
The honing oil supplied with the kit has a lighter body and different feel than the Norton oil. The Norton oil is just USP grade mineral oil. You can get almost the same thing, a lot cheaper and a lot easier to find, by buying USP grade mineral oil at your supermarket, drugstore, or discount store (health & beauty aisles). The Norton oil is slightly less viscous, but that's not critical for this purpose.
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Glad the ScotchTape worked for you FigureSpins!
I have a question for all you guys- the Scotch tape doesn't work for me. With Scotch, the rigs have space to glide (this is not the case with their supplied masking tape, or any other tape I've tried- its just too tight a fit and neither unit can glide easily). So I'm wondering- might I have a narrower than normal rig? Or might I have a piece of metal that catches on the tape? I can't feel anything, but I can't get my finger all the way in there, really either. I don't see anything.
I've given up taping, and now have light scratching along my blades. I hope its just cosmetic (???)- I consider it so..... I don't like it, but I'm the only one that sees that part of my blade.
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It's just cosmetic. Even if you make it completely through the chrome to bare steel, it won't affect skating performance at all. Even grit hiding in plastic blade guards will scratch the chrome over time.
A suspected burr on the inside of the aluminum guide can be handled easily by passing a file through the slot. Press it flat against one side, slide a few passes, then the other. Little bumps can be removed in just a few strokes.
I wouldn't suggest to attempt opening the gap significantly with a file. It would be easy to file a slight angle on one end or the other, affecting alignment.
However, just a few passes to get rid of a burr won't matter.
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Glad the ScotchTape worked for you FigureSpins!
I have a question for all you guys- the Scotch tape doesn't work for me. With Scotch, the rigs have space to glide (this is not the case with their supplied masking tape, or any other tape I've tried- its just too tight a fit and neither unit can glide easily). So I'm wondering- might I have a narrower than normal rig? Or might I have a piece of metal that catches on the tape? I can't feel anything, but I can't get my finger all the way in there, really either. I don't see anything.
I've given up taping, and now have light scratching along my blades. I hope its just cosmetic (???)- I consider it so..... I don't like it, but I'm the only one that sees that part of my blade.
* If you're happy with the sharpening results so far (without using any tape at all), I'd say just continue doing so. Just use some light oil on the sides of the blade to reduce friction with the Pro-Filer chassis.
* The scratches on the chrome are purely cosmetic. On chrome-plated plain carbon steel blades, the plating (typically chrome over nickel) is removed in a zone along the immediate edge anyway.
If you wish to play Sherlock Holmes to get at the root cause of your problem, however, then:
* As I mentioned in Reply #14 above, to do proper diagnosis, you'll need a micrometer or caliper (.001", not micron, accuracy) to check both the thickness of the blade and the width of the guide slot of the Pro-Filer chassis. I had similar problems with snagging of Scotch Tape. The guide slot of the Pro-Filer chassis was fine, but it turned out that one blade was sufficiently thicker near the pick and tail that the tape would snag and tear there. So I had to leave those portions untaped.
* See my Reply #18 above for surface preparation instructions and an alternative, more robust tape (assuming it's not too thick; and you don't know without proper measurements).
* If there's a minor burr on the inside of the Pro-Filer chassis (if there's a major burr, you'd probably have problems without tape), I would suggest using a burnishing rod instead of a file to remove it (less chance of damage). The Pro-Filer chassis is fabricated from a relatively soft aluminum alloy. A hardened steel burnishing rod should do the trick. I described a suitable tool in Reply #1 of this thread: http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8385.0 (instead of using the tool to press down tape, use it directly against the walls of the slots of the Pro-Filer chassis to remove minor burrs; see Pix #2 in the referenced reply).
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There's a "how to use the pro-filer sharpener" video on YouTube where the narrator states that the two "slots" are different widths. I thought it was just for the single-stone kit, but maybe it also applies to the figure skating stones?
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There's a "how to use the pro-filer sharpener" video on YouTube where the narrator states that the two "slots" are different widths. I thought it was just for the single-stone kit, but maybe it also applies to the figure skating stones?
That's for the hockey Pro-Filer Plus. Different chassis from the figure skating units.
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That's for the hockey Pro-Filer Plus. Different chassis from the figure skating units.
That's what I assumed, but perhaps the too-tight chassis is incorrect on your set?
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With Scotch, the rigs have space to glide (this is not the case with their supplied masking tape, or any other tape I've tried- its just too tight a fit and neither unit can glide easily).
I think the gaps at least used to vary in width a bit - and were MUCH thinner for the hockey tools. But blades also vary in width.
If Scotch works for you, I see no reason to use anything else. I varied tape type mostly to create a snug enough fit that the tool would stay centered on the blade.
BTW, I have always assumed deep scratches on the side of the blade (or for that matter, in the hollow) would create more drag, if they are close enough to the bottom to sometimes touch the ice, and and would slow your glide. I don't have the right tools to test that hypothesis. (Others here don't appear to believe that hypothesis correct.) So I oil or water the sides of the blade too, before and during sharpening. I suppose someone who cared what their blades looked like (e.g., if their skating was being judged) would do what was needed to keep the sides smooth and shiny.
(The only things I have any actual evidence for slowing down a blade are major warping, a toe pick that touches when I skate, for whatever reason, and extra blade width. Scratches "should" matter - I just don't know how much. The speed skaters I have talked to go to crazy extremes to cut drag - I bet some of them try not to scratch the sides too.)
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BTW, I have always assumed deep scratches on the side of the blade (or for that matter, in the hollow) would create more drag, if they are close enough to the bottom to sometimes touch the ice, and and would slow your glide. I don't have the right tools to test that hypothesis. (Others here don't appear to believe that hypothesis correct.)
For chrome-plated plain carbon steel figure skate blades, even if you assume the scenario of extreme lean (that is, the side of the boot is almost touching the ice), the only way for scratches on the chrome plate to contact the ice during skating would be if the blades had been sharpened so many times that the edges are at or close to the chrome-relief boundary. Any figure skater fastidious enough to be concerned about optimization of performance would not be using blades that worn down.
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For chrome-plated plain carbon steel figure skate blades, even if you assume the scenario of extreme lean (that is, the side of the boot is almost touching the ice), the only way for scratches on the chrome plate to contact the ice during skating would be if the blades had been sharpened so many times that the edges are at or close to the chrome-relief boundary. Any figure skater fastidious enough to be concerned about optimization of performance would not be using blades that worn down.
While I was taught that in ice dance, the side of the boot should brush the ice, especially in under pushes, that isn't really the issue. That generally isn't enough to make the plated region touch the ice, even if the blade sinks in a few mm during skating. (Except of course in jump take-offs and landings, when the blade sinks much deeper, but that are so brief that I doubt scratches matter.)
I am only concerned with scratches near the working surface - in other words in the chrome relief part, in the part that does sometimes touch the ice.
It is true that for the most part, the pro-filer won't scratch that region while sharpening, because the gap only touches the plated region, but sometimes the part near the working surface might get scratched when you insert or remove the blade.
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While I was taught that in ice dance, the side of the boot should brush the ice, especially in under pushes, that isn't really the issue. That generally isn't enough to make the plated region touch the ice, even if the blade sinks in a few mm during skating. (Except of course in jump take-offs and landings, when the blade sinks much deeper, but that are so brief that I doubt scratches matter.)
I am only concerned with scratches near the working surface - in other words in the chrome relief part, in the part that does sometimes touch the ice.
It is true that for the most part, the pro-filer won't scratch that region while sharpening, because the gap only touches the plated region, but sometimes the part near the working surface might get scratched when you insert or remove the blade.
Yes, and the chrome relief, especially in MK and Wilson blades, has a relatively rough surface; certainly not mirror polished. And the final stage of sharpening [with the Pro-Filer or power sharpener] generally entails running an abrasive honing stone over at least a portion of the chrome relief to remove the burr and form the final edge. The initial surface and the final deburring will be far more dispositive of the final edge quality than any incidental scratches imparted by the Pro-Filer chassis (the chassis itself is fabricated from relatively soft aluminum alloy; any scratches imparted on the relatively much harder chrome relief would be due to stray trapped abrasive particles; but, as I mentioned above, deburring is generally done with an abrasive honing stone afterwards anyway).