skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: dlbritton on April 13, 2022, 10:51:36 PM
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I had my blades sharpened yesterday and the sharpener said my boots are broken down and should be replaced soon.
I currently skate in Riedell 255 Motion boots with Coronation Ace blades. I went with the Riedell's because, in men's wide boots at least, the toe box was wider than a Jackson for the same sole length. I have read many comments about Riedell's being narrow but that wasn't my experience.
If I move up in a Riedell I will probably go with the Bronze Star if I can determine that the dimensions in an 8 1/2 Wide are the same as my current Motions.
The biggest reason I am posting here though is I am also considering an Edea Ice Fly. I tried some on at Adult Nationals several years back and they felt wonderful. I also tried on the Chorus but the were uncomfortable.
I was talking to the rink skate director about boots but she normally only orders Jackson or Edea
Obviously my concern is with overbooting but the Edea rep ( the actual importer), my skate director and numerous blogs and posts have said you can't overboot in an Edea even going with an Ice Fly. I am just now working on single jumps and getting consistent with one foot spins. I will be sticking with the Coronation Ace blade.
So, pros and cons of considering the Ice Fly? Money isn't a big consideration since even a Riedell Bronze Star is around $550 and the Ice Fly around $750.
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I tried a pair of Edea boots just a few days ago--it was an opportunity to see how they feel on the ice. What I have heard again and again is that you either love them or you hate them.
I did not love them...
They were not a perfect fit, but I don't think that is actually important in terms of what I learned about the feeling of skating in an Edea boot. The boot is really a bit like a hockey boot modified for figure skating use--the boot is a stiff shell and all of the fore-aft movement is in the tongue. I see the advantage in terms of lateral stability, because the boots are rock solid on the sides. However, one of the things I have always noticed about skating boots as compared to ski boots is that they really bend in a much more 3-dimensional way. The Edea boot allows this to happen by having the ankle loose enough that you can build diagonal movements out of that relatively wide opening at the front of the ankle.
I like my boots to wrap around my ankles enough that when I bend, I feel the boot engage. It creates a connection between the boot and my foot that allows me to control what is happening and also gives a tremendous amount of feedback because of how the boot fits around my foot and ankle. The Edea boot felt dead and unresponsive in comparison to a more classic leather boot. I also felt like the balance point in the boot was different, and in an odd way. I have worn plenty of skates other than my own so that I can test things out or figure out why someone is having a problem with their skates. Usually I notice if the heel feels lower or higher, but with the Edea (with MK Pro blades), I felt like there was an increased amount of pressure on the ball of my foot even though I was balanced over the blade. It's hard to describe, I guess I would just say that they felt very different on the ice than when I tried them on and did not skate in them.
My gut feeling is that going from a Riedell boot to and Edea boot is going to be a huge change, because Riedell boots wrap around your ankles and you definitely feel the connection in how movements in your lower leg affect the boot. I wore Riedells for about 6 years, and actually have been testing and breaking in a pair of Bronze Star boots for a friend this spring. I vastly prefer the Harlicks but the Riedells are certainly solid and I could skate in them if I needed to. The Edeas would have to be one of the last boots left on the planet for me to be willing to put in the time to change my whole proprioception and movement patterns enough to wear them.
I wear a Harlick dance boot with a lower-cut back and a leather backstay, so I am accustomed to a lower boot, particularly at the back. The Edea boot was not a dance boot but it was no taller than my dance boots. There may be variation between models, but I would definitely look at the height of the Ice Fly compared to what you have been wearing. Also, consider how it would feel to have no boot flex at all, maybe consider skating around with your Riedells very loosely laced on the hooks? Kind of like skiing with your boots unbuckled...it shows whether you are using the bottom of your foot to guide the boot or if you are using pressure against the boot cuff to control it. Most of us use a combination of the two. I definitely had to develop better use of the bottom of my foot when I switched to dance boots, because you don't have the higher cuff. Worth it in the long run, but to go to a lower cuff and no ankle wrap--that is really a big change.
All that being said, there are a lot of people in Edea boots these days, so maybe they are great once you adjust. They are certainly lightweight and easy to care for.
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Obviously my concern is with overbooting but the Edea rep ( the actual importer)
Do you mean David Ripp, the guy who runs SkatesUS?
I tried to be fit by him a fair number of years ago. He told me he could not sufficiently modify an Edea boot to fit my feet, for a number of reasons. In other words, he seemed honest. So perhaps he would tell you if he thinks you would have a problem.
Supersharp - were your Edea's someone else's boots, that were not modified by him, or someone he trained, to fit you personally? If what he told me then is correct, he can substantially stretch the uppers to fit an individual. It was the lower part, next to the sole, that could not be modified much - though that may be out of date.
OTOH, at one point, Edea had something on their web page that indicated that snug boot fit is really only super-important at two places on the foot (one was the heel. Possibly, the other was the point in front of the ankle?? I don't recall.) Which suggests that if you like a fully snug fit, that might not be for you. But it may well now be out of date. In the mean time, I think Edea has increased the number of sizes and widths they offer.
dlbritton: If cost is genuinely unimportant, I wonder if it would be worth getting full custom boots. I was told that Harlick does that well, if you use one of the traveling fitters that Harlick itself sends out.
Since you teach skiing, you've obviously had a lot of experience with ski boots. Do you need or prefer full custom ski boots?
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Do you mean David Ripp, the guy who runs SkatesUS?
I tried to be fit by him a fair number of years ago. He told me he could not sufficiently modify an Edea boot to fit my feet, for a number of reasons. In other words, he seemed honest. So perhaps he would tell you if he thinks you would have a problem.
Yes I spoke to David Ripp. I had a card where he measured my feet but can't find it at the moment. Like I said the ice Fly out of the box felt wonderful. The Chorus caused pressure points immediately but he told me the pressure points could be spot heat molded out.
dlbritton: If cost is genuinely unimportant, I wonder if it would be worth getting full custom boots. I was told that Harlick does that well, if you use one of the traveling fitters that Harlick itself sends out.
Since you teach skiing, you've obviously had a lot of experience with ski boots. Do you need or prefer full custom ski boots?
I don't' think I'm at a level to go full custom yet. The Riedell Motion fits fine so as long as Riedell didn't change the last between 2015 and now and they use the same last for the Bronze Star as the Motion I should be okay with a Bronze Star.
What I am experiencing now is a feeling that I can rock my leg back and forth in the boot unless I have it cinched down absolutely as tight as it will go along the tongue. If I can even fit my pinkie in the boot I don't feel stable. I don't remember having this feeling when I was only doing bunny hops and waltz jumps. Now I am doing half flips and working on Salchow, Toe Loop and Loop jumps and even my waltz jumps feel unstable now so I think working on the full jumps finished breaking down my boots.
It could be I am just noticing the difference between skate boots and ski boots. With ski boots it is obviously clamped down around my leg.
In my current ski boots I had the liner heat molded and the shell spot heat molded for pressure points. I have custom orthotics for the foot bed. I'm in a Technica Mach 2 120 flex mid volume boot.
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You may want to get a new tongue installed in your boots while you figure out a plan. A new tongue really makes a difference, and generally will reduce the amount you have to tighten the boots for them to feel right. Also, it's easy to underestimate how much difference new laces can make.
Obviously neither of these suggestions is a long-term solution, but they can buy you a little time to look for more options. I also find that as skate boots pack out, putting a "filler" insole layer under the footbed can help. I use cardboard (not corrugated board), whatever is handy. I use a lot of ziploc bags at work, so I have made many filler insoles out of ziploc boxes. The filler insole lifts your foot up in the boot a tiny bit and makes the boot a bit snugger.
Query--The Edea boots I tried do not belong to me, so they were not shaped for my foot. They also had not been shaped for the owner's foot, they were unchanged from the original conformation and had only been skated in for about 3 hours.
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I suspect you are experienced enough using skates and skis to judge for yourself whether you need new boots. In particular whether they fail to support you with reasonable safety for the type of skating you do. If they are comfortable, and you never feel unsafe... Of course, it might well take a few months for the new skates to come, so you have to take the expected breakdown during that time into account.
I've been doing low level skating in broken down Klingbeil Dance boots that are about 20 years old, and have seen many thousand hours use. But I actually find it very comfortable to do low level skating in broken down boots. Though they are no longer providing good ankle support, and I really do feel a need to replace them. I've stopped jumping altogether, not that I was ever any good at it.
I haven't replaced my tongue, though I did try gluing in a little extra stiff foam under the tongue to cut lace bite. But I switched to round utility (parachute) cord which I can pull a lot tighter than the flat skate laces I used to use, because of the shape, because it fits the holes tightly and doesn't slip back as easily, and because it is a lot more durable. I also make my own insoles, out of camping pad foam, which takes up the expanded interior space. I admit I never tried zip lock bag boxes. :)
I actually glued stick leather inside to reinforce my first pair of boots, but that didn't work very well. In the mean time I tried an almost unused pair of low level Risport Dance boots, which just happened to fit well, but they broke down in a month or two - I tried to baby them, but apparently they couldn't handle deep edges. I tried to extend their life by tightly wrapping duct tape around them every time, but that really only worked for a few days. And I actually went for that Edea fitting, and probably would have bought if David Ripp had said they could be reformed to fit my feet. I also managed to get an old but completely unused pair of Graf Edmonton Special boots for free (long story) - overbooting to an extreme for my low skating level, as those are high level freestyle boots. They were about 1.5 sizes too large, but I made thick insoles, and other mods, so they worked, but were much heavier and klunkier and stiffer than what I'd used before. Unfortunately, I used mounting screws that weren't long enough in the heels to reach the outsole, and the heels were made of many glued layers of leather, so one heel broke off, and I haven't felt it worth repairing. So I went back to the broken down Klingbeils.
I've noticed that some coaches teach in broken down boots, because they spend so much time on the ice that stiff boots would hurt. But some of them switch to better condition boots for personal skating.
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You may want to get a new tongue installed in your boots while you figure out a plan. A new tongue really makes a difference, and generally will reduce the amount you have to tighten the boots for them to feel right.
As long as the main portion of the tongue (the outer leather or synthetic leather sheet that the lace bites into) is still sound (e.g., no tears), you may not need to replace the tongue. Often the tongue lining is what breaks down, especially if it's made of sponge foam rubber. I insert a separate tongue liner between the inside of the tongue and my foot. I insert the tongue liner after I put my foot in the boot and before I lace up.
The tongue liner is simply an approximately rectangular piece of soft, squishy foam covered with moleskin. The width is slightly less than the width of the tongue. The length extends from the top of the tongue to the instep. Start with an oversize piece, then trim to fit; find what's comfortable and effective for you.
I use Poron polyurethane foam rated Ultrasoft (or Very Soft) in softness, nominally 1/4" or 3/8" thick, depending on how much padding I need. It's very durable; I've been using the same pair for about 5 yrs now. But for short-term trial, you can use any soft, squishy foam; I save suitable pieces that come as packing material.
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According to
https://marianinc.com/materials/poron-foams/
some but not all Poron foams are safe for skin contact. (BTW, other companies provide Poron too. They may provide different info for their forms.)
I don't know if that is an issue if you wear socks. Or whether it is a significant issue in any event, for most people.
I choose a camping pad as the source of my foam, because it was rated skin-safe, and because a 3x7 foot or so pad was $6 or $7. But maybe it mats (permanently gets thinner over time) more quickly than Poron, and some Poron forms can be heat molded to conform exactly to you, if you feel like doing that.
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According to
https://marianinc.com/materials/poron-foams/
some but not all Poron foams are safe for skin contact. (BTW, other companies provide Poron too. They may provide different info for their forms.)
I don't know if that is an issue if you wear socks. Or whether it is a significant issue in any event, for most people.
I choose a camping pad as the source of my foam, because it was rated skin-safe, and because a 3x7 foot or so pad was $6 or $7. But maybe it mats (permanently gets thinner over time) more quickly than Poron, and some Poron forms can be heat molded to conform exactly to you, if you feel like doing that.
Regardless of whether skin contact is an issue or not, as I wrote above, I wrap my Poron sheet in moleskin. The primary reason is to protect the surface of the Poron sheet from abrasion (which can lead to the foam 'shedding' over repeated insertion-removal cycles). But it also provides a barrier from direct skin contact (as does my socks). The moleskin is medical grade.
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The moleskin is medical grade.
Do you know of any moleskins that are not medical grade? I thought they are all designed for medical purposes, like blister coverage.
As best as I understand it, virtually all insoles and boot liners (including tongue liners) have some sort of anti-fungal treatment.
I wonder if moleskin has an anti-fungal component. Maybe it is isn't designed to be against the skin for more than a few days.
Now that I think of it, I'm not sure that all foam camping pads have anti-fungal treatments. I wonder if I should spray the insoles I made out of them in my boots.
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DL, back more on point to your wondering about if Riedell has changed their last on Bronze Stars - call them. I've had a months-long on-and-off conversation with one of their regional representatives about custom boots. I have nothing but praise for their customer service.
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Do you know of any moleskins that are not medical grade? I thought they are all designed for medical purposes, like blister coverage.
I added the comment that the moleskin I use is medical grade, because otherwise I fully expected that you would hunt high and low for some that was not, and provide links to them (e.g., WWII surplus from an eBayer in Minsk).
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Spoke to my coach today about new skates. She has been on vacation so this was the first chance we had to talk about boots. She agrees I need new boots.
She was a big NO on Ice Fly's. She has a few skaters that have them but she doesn't recommend them until someone is mastering doubles.
I am going to contact Riedell to see if the Bronze Star or Silver Star has the same fit as the Motion. As far as I can tell I am in the correct size with an 8 1/2 wide. Toes aren't cramped but have a snug fit, heel stays locked in place (if I really try I can unweight my heel but it doesn't slide up and down at all). The skate director said she no longer has an account with Riedell but she is pretty certain she can order through the rep anyway. The rink orders Jackson and Edea.
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Spoke to my coach today about new skates. She has been on vacation so this was the first chance we had to talk about boots. She agrees I need new boots.
She was a big NO on Ice Fly's. She has a few skaters that have them but she doesn't recommend them until someone is mastering doubles.
I am going to contact Riedell to see if the Bronze Star or Silver Star has the same fit as the Motion. As far as I can tell I am in the correct size with an 8 1/2 wide. Toes aren't cramped but have a snug fit, heel stays locked in place (if I really try I can unweight my heel but it doesn't slide up and down at all). The skate director said she no longer has an account with Riedell but she is pretty certain she can order through the rep anyway. The rink orders Jackson and Edea.
There's no competent pro shop near you that's an authorized Riedell retailer? A tech typically takes multiple foot measurements and foot tracings (there's a chance your feet may have changed) and sends them off to a Riedell rep for sizing recommendation. That way, Riedell is responsible for proper fit.
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There's no competent pro shop near you that's an authorized Riedell retailer? A tech typically takes multiple foot measurements and foot tracings (there's a chance your feet may have changed) and sends them off to a Riedell rep for sizing recommendation. That way, Riedell is responsible for proper fit.
There is a Riedell retailer 1 1/2 hours away. There was one 45 minutes away but I guess covid did in her business, it closed last year.
I will talk to the skate director to see if she has equipment to measure for Riedell. She has equipment for Edea and Jackson. I don't know if the Jackson equipment measures inches or direct sizes.
I did hear back from Riedell and the last used is the same for the Motion (current boot), Bronze and Silver Star. The last is the same as what was used in 2015 when my Motions were manufactured.
I also printed out the Riedell measurement template and will use that for an approximation.
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Could you contact the boot manufacturer(s), and ask for a pro shop or skate tech recommendation?
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I think you didn't mention how many times per week you are skating. What are your main concerns in over-booting. Risk to cause damages to your selves or are you more scared that they would prevent you to do certain things?
Its good to hear peoples opinions and experiences, but in certain level it is like I would ask peoples recommendation if I should choose Nike or Adidas shoes. No-one cannot say how my foots looks or what are my personal needs. Especially kids are often choosing figure skating boots based on that what they see in their friends. I would choose boot which feels best on my foots without worrying too much over-booting. How ever I need to say that I have never skated with figure skates, so I cannot say that I would be expert on selecting boots.
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I definitely agree that so much about this depends on the shape of the foot and any anomalies such as bone spurs, bunions, and so on. If the Riedell last fits well, my guess is the Jackson last will not fit as well.
OVER-BOOTING
My biggest concern in over-booting is the potential loss of ankle mobility due to too much stiffness. In ski instruction, we called the ankle "the expert's joint" because proper use of the ankle really takes awhile to develop. Skaters who over-boot early in their development tend to have movement patterns that minimize ankle use, and it definitely works against them.
Once the skater is at the point where they use their ankles correctly, over-booting is a bit less of a concern, because the skater tends to force the boot to bend so the preferred balance point is found. Also, larger skaters and adults tend to have less over-booting problems because their height gives them more leverage to press into the tongue of the boot.
Since dlbritton is a ski instructor, I would expect that he already has good use of his ankle joint and is comfortable "crushing the boot" as my old coach used to say. And he is also an adult with plenty of leverage to manipulate the boot. With that being the case, my guess is the Bronze Star would be an appropriate boot. It will take some break-in, but once it starts to flex forward (most skaters don't tie the top row of hooks until the boot starts to bend adequately with the lower 3 tied), it will probably feel great...assuming the Riedell last is a good fit to his foot.
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Over-booted skaters are predisposed to all sorts of overuse injuries by their equipment.
Err on the side of caution with boot strength, IMVHO.
If you end up developing issues in you hip, back, groin or foot these things can actually be very hard to pinpoint and diagnose properly. It's common to get a "minor" diagnosis when you have a more serious insidious issue brewing, and you can be in pain for years before its pinpointed, at which time lots of damage can be done as a result of it.
Also, if you have issues with the boots you're likely going to have to replace them, which will cost more than just starting with a softer pair... because you will have wasted money on less productive lessons and sessions due to them, in addition to future money wasted on sessions and lessons to eliminate the compensatory mechanisms you developed to compensate for the lack of proper ankle flexion in those boots - habits which can also predispose you to injury because they're shifting work to muscles that otherwise shouldn't need to bear that additional load.
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All, thank you for your input.
After talking to my coach, the skate director and Riedell support I have decided to stay with the Riedell 255 Motion in an 8 1/2 Wide (my current size). The director measured my feet and I am still an 8 1/2 W according to her calculations. My current boots seem to fit correctly and the last or sizing has not changed since my current boots were made.
I asked the director about moving up to the Bronze Star which is the next level up in terms of cost and flex (80 vs 70 for Motion) and she said if I was going to be working on doubles she would say yes (but that is highly unlikely).
Lead time for the boots is 6-8 weeks at present which would let me get through my first competition in July on my current boots ( they are still usable but need replacing) and give me 6 weeks or so to get used to the new ones before 2 more competitions in mid September.
The one thing I would like to ask opinions about is the actual fit of my current boots. As I have said they are comfortable with no heel lift or foot slippage and my toes are not cramped but when I look down on my boots it does appear they are open fairly wide over my arch and ankle when they are tied tight. I have seen pictures showing boots that are correctly sized, too small and as too large. Mine do look somewhat like the too small/narrow boots. I am attaching pics from the other day of my boots as they look laced tight.
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I'm curious to hear what other people say. They look fine to me- I lace mine rather wide over my arches too (the laces are pulled tight, but not taught, and there is some gaping between the sides of the boot and the tongue). I have bunion issues though. As long as your feet are comfortable, and you can connect with the boots, I'd say all is good.
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I am really not expert on boots, but to my eyes laces in your pictures looks to be very tight on the area where lace hooks are.
Here are couple videos what I typically ask people to watch if I see their boots to be broken boots when I sharpen their skates or if I do see that they skate wrongly laced skates. These videos demonstrates very clear way how boot behaves if they are laced correctly and when they are not. Maybe it could be useful if someone would make video recording while you try same things with your own skates?
https://youtu.be/xMd3EpUSFcY
https://youtu.be/oX2BdAJH_Q8
https://youtu.be/gXkdemuRLEs
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From what I see in the pictures, you need to consult with another skate professional - including the question about boot strength, because "what jumps are you doing" is a hilariously bad way to gauge whether an adult skater needs more boot strength. Height and Weight matter more than if they're doing single or doubles, IMVHO. Even on singles, your boot needs to support your body weight properly when you land anything... or when you're skating, or spinning, etc.
Those boots do not look to be fitted properly. They do look a bit too wide to me. They are buckling and wanting to crease in some wrong places.
Either they are too light, or they are too wide.
IMO, it is odd to see someone who needs a wide boot have buckling up in the toe area like that...
I don't think the tight lacing in the ankle area is remarkable, as that could be a result of someone having relatively small ankles. However, the profile of the skate seems off, and it seems to be wearing in oddly.
I would consult with another professional, respectfully.
EDIT: Also, if your laces were "too tight," you wouldn't need to ask us about it. Your feet would surely tell you!
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...
https://youtu.be/xMd3EpUSFcY
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Wow, Edea sure doesn't think the boot should provide ANY sideways (or backwards support). For all intents and purposes, the skate shown only exists on the bottom and the upper front of the tongue. I'm not sure whether that boot even locks in the heel - though I can't really tell.
Maybe I'm just not athletic enough, but I would probably injure myself if I had a boot that fitted that way. I especially need sideways support, to prevent ankle sprains and sideways motion, and a locked in heel.
The unusual lacing system Edea advocates, which tends to lock the laces in place under the sides of the upper, sort of makes sense in that context - because that fit creates essentially no tension on most of the lace, and the lace would otherwise be free to shift.
I am going to guess that the fit Edea shows would work best for elite level athletes who have extremely well conditioned muscles in the foot, ankle, and lower leg.
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I like what Nate said.
It is especially obvious there is empty space (and low pressure) inside the boots on the big toe side, probably just behind the big toe. That's why it was indented there. The indentation couldn't have occurred if there wasn't empty low pressure space for it to occur there. I might have added moleskin to the boot there, so that the pressure over the foot would be more uniform. Not only would that slow breakdown, it would have added control there.
You had these boots heat molded, right? I'm a little surprised the heat molding wouldn't have taken care of this.
I'm not completely sure, but think there is also a low pressure or empty region over the toes, where the boots indent downwards. I might likewise have added moleskin there.
But bear in mind that I like snug fits, and tend to believe that it is a good idea to maximize boot lifetime.
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The Edea videos intrigue me.
I agree completely with their loose/tight/loose model- I use that and have found it's much more comfortable across my bunion (also helped with my old risports when I realized I could change the lacing to remove pressure across that part of my foot). My skates haven't creased like they normally would have, but there are other factors that could be causal there, so I won't go so far as to say the tightening pattern is making my boots last longer. My feet feel better though.
However, the way to actually lace the holes the over/under thing.... I tried it and noticed no difference in pressure on my skates, but boy is it sure hard to know which lace to pull and where so as to get them tight. When my US skate tech saw it he said "Russian Lacing", I got a (light) verbal spanking, and we promptly relaced my skates. He is not a fan. I guess there's a difference of opinion on that out there.
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The Edea videos intrigue me.
I agree completely with their loose/tight/loose model- I use that and have found it's much more comfortable across my bunion (also helped with my old risports when I realized I could change the lacing to remove pressure across that part of my foot). My skates haven't creased like they normally would have, but there are other factors that could be causal there, so I won't go so far as to say the tightening pattern is making my boots last longer. My feet feel better though.
However, the way to actually lace the holes the over/under thing.... I tried it and noticed no difference in pressure on my skates, but boy is it sure hard to know which lace to pull and where so as to get them tight. When my US skate tech saw it he said "Russian Lacing", I got a (light) verbal spanking, and we promptly relaced my skates. He is not a fan. I guess there's a difference of opinion on that out there.
Lacing the over the eyelets locks them, which is necessary for Edeas because the upper doesn't bend, you flex against the tongue, so the laces need to be locked to provide consistent flexion and support. Non-locked lacing also comes with the risk of the bow unraveling when you flex against them, and you cannot be sure that the laces will retain their preferred tightness while skating.
I used to be a really, really terrible "chronic lacing adjuster," so I think Edeas would really just relapse me into spending half of my ice time [and lessons] at the boards retying my skates trying to get it to feel right/perfect/optimal. That's a risk I am not willing to take!
They don't fit my foot anyways. Ordered Ice Flies and was kind of sad I couldn't take them, cause the fit was so off for my foot. I like the way those look.
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I tried "Russian" lacing for a while.
It was initially possible to use it to tie laces tighter (which was what I wanted, rather than the loose/tight/loose lacing Edea likes), so they didn't slip back as much as I tied the bow. And it meant I didn't have to re-adjust the lacing during the skating session. But I found I spent more total time using it, especially when loosening the laces to take off the boots.
(I eventually found that if I used my fingers differently when I tied the bow, I could achieve the extra tension I wanted, and without gradual loosening while skating, without using "Russian" lacing. But that is a separate topic.)
Anyway, I don't think the "Russian lacing" system is "bad" - it depends what you want to achieve, and maybe on how coordinated you are. I think a lot of sports equipment things are like that. We sometimes eventually learn ways to achieve what we want, with a given set of equipment or techniques, which can't be achieved as well or easily with other equipment and/or techniques. So there is no way that everyone is going to agree on everything. Plus our bodies are different.
The fact that I need strong sideways ankle support, that Edea's fit technique clearly doesn't give, may be somewhat like that. I've known speed skaters (both ice and inline), and cross country ski racers, and even a few hockey players, who don't need any ankle support, and use low cut boots that end well below the ankle (though those hockey players instead use boots that just leave the ankle uncovered, but are armored elsewhere), to gain extra speed and efficiency. But I can't even use low cut sneakers without fear of injury, and pay extra, and spend extra time looking, to get high cut sneakers. Perhaps Edea's fit technique is almost like using low cut boots - though the pressure across the front of the foot is higher up.
E.g., I used to use off-the-shelf unmodified backpacking boots, and off-the-shelf Riedell skate boots. But my toes are wider than average; my heels narrower; and my toes somewhat shorter, so I ended up buying boots that were too wide elsewhere, too long, that bent in a place other than the balls of my foot. I literally got to the point of re-injuring my ankles every weekend hiking trip, and eventually got a march fracture hiking, and a broken fibula during a skating fall. By changing the way I fit all shoes and boots (and practicing safer falls, a separate topic), I don't get ankle injuries anymore, nor have I had another bone injury, but maybe the way I learned to compensate partly with a snug shoe and boot fit all over (except beside and in front of the toes) makes me want things from my boots that are different from someone who instead developed strong ankles and other techniques, which the Edea fit method appears to require.
MOST experienced skaters want a fairly snug fit pretty much all over, with no slippage anywhere on the foot when skating - a much more snug than most other sports. Some even want a snug fit to the sides and front of the toes, despite the warnings of some podiatrists that that is dangerous, because that helps the particular technique they use to jump.
I suppose Edea's fit might mean you don't need to punch the boots at the ankle bones, because the ankle bones barely if ever touch the boot. I'm a bit surprised that is possible without major blisters, but maybe you can instead develop callouses to prevent blisters. Whereas as I treat callouses as a sign of improper fit due to unnecessary motion.
And apparently Edea's fit technique, which is loose in many places, satisfies some people just fine.
That kind of difference between what people want and have learned to use also shows, like other people said, people are best off going to a store to see what boots feel right to them - though unfortunately, I also admit that initial impression isn't always a perfect guide, and until one has had a few injuries, it may be difficult to figure out what one needs. Learning from your own past injuries sounds like a crazy way to figure out what you need or want, but AFAICT, a lot of athletes do it. Because most skaters do like that snug fit, I suggest Edea's fit might not be the best initial starting point - unless one has already developed strong ankles and feels confident they can make do that way.
But in this case, the o.p. is an experienced skater and skier, who probably has a very good feel for what she needs. Maybe she should trust herself to make the right decisions based on what she feels while trying them on.
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Edea's boots do give strong lateral support. The whole point of them designing them that way is so the boot doesn't bend to the side, but bends forwards. That way, you don't have to worry about losing lateral support as your boot wears down, as generally happens with traditional leather boots.
If you don't feel enough lateral support, then you should move up from one of their lower leather models to one of the higher models that use a composite material - Ice Fly or Piano. But I highly doubt a Concerto boot lacks lateral support for anyone. The circumstances in which that happens is probably out of the design considerations of the product, and such a skater is likely to be S.O.L. with most leather boots as anything as strong laterally as a Concerto is going to be like 85-90 Rating on the Reidell/Risport/Jackson scale...
They will be boots like Aria, RF1 Elite, and Supreme. So, you will have as much lateral support as a Concerto, but you're also going to have to break in and bend those boots to achieve adequate flexion - like any other leather boot (vs. simply adjusting the lacing looser, as you do with Edeas). This entire design element is why Edeas have very little break-in.
Edeas are laced looser to allow greater flexion, NOT lateral movement.
Good skating is done on edges and generally with some degree of flexion, so that will always limit the amount of "lateral" movement you can get in the boot while skating - restricted by the pressure your body is putting on the tongue (and lacing, by extension). How it looks when someone is sitting in a chair is not how it functions, practically.
The issue most people have with Edea is how they fit, the steep pitch of the footbed, and the weird way you modify them (can easily damage the boots if you do it wrong). I know some people who have kept Edeas for YEARS, but Elite skaters apparently fly through them. Their durability is very "YMMV."
Edea's Fit is not loose in many places. The laces are pulled tight up until the last two hooks at the top, which are what you adjust for flexion. I learned doubles in over booted Klingbeil S-2's with the top hook undone and enough room to fit 4 fingers in the boot. I never developed a blister or a callus, so I doubt Edea's boots are going to be traumatizing feet (at least those that are a good fit for the boot) or ankles any time soon.
In reality, Edea's boots don't feel drastically different in the ankle area from what I currently skate on. The big difference was in the fit. They feel aggressively slanted in the footbed, and I don't think they are good for people with flat feet (or quite low arches) - generally speaking. If you have to wear something like Yellow SuperFeet in Edeas, it actually exaggerates this, because those insoles have a raised heel. Jackson has some Supreme Footbeds that may help with people who pronate, but I'm not sure they would do much about the "arch gap" people with flat feet get in boots with aggressively slanted footbed (or higher heel profiles).
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Edea's boots do give strong lateral support. The whole point of them designing them that way is so the boot doesn't bend to the side, but bends forwards. That way, you don't have to worry about losing lateral support as your boot wears down, as generally happens with traditional leather boots.
I'm looking at Edea's video "Correct lacing on Edea skating boot"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMd3EpUSFcY
at 0:10 - 0:24, and again at 1:45 - 2:03.
While I cannot see the ankle bones, it appears that the sides of the boot do not touch the ankle area, or perhaps only very lightly touches it, when the leg is vertical. Is that an illusion?
If it is correct, how can they provide lateral support?
Or do the Edea boots you have seen or used fit differently than that.
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Not all boots can support any lacing pattern. Edea boots are supposed to be laced in the "Russian style", with the aglet being pushed in from the top and coming out below. The boot needs the lacing band to be pressed down rather than pulled up by the laces.
The newer Jackson boots seem to be able to tolerate this lacing pattern as well, but when Jackson sends you the boots, they lace them in the standard fashion (if they are laced at all), with the aglets being pushed into the lacing band from below.
Riedell boots do not hold up well against the pull from the Russian lacing pattern. See attached photos of a pair of boots I had to repair 2 days before a skater left for a synchro competition. The lacing pattern caused the laces (Riedell laces that came with the boots) to act like a saw on the top eyelets, cutting through the leather over time. The repair has been in place for months and has held up very well.
First half of the photos on this message, second on the next so they don't need to be the size of a postage stamp.
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Second half of photos from previous post.
I had problems with cutting into the eyelets on my first Harlick boots, so they added grommets on the top two sets of holes. Since the boots are custom and are designed to be taken apart and rebuilt, the grommets are only in the thicker top material (applied before the boot and lining are stitched together). The cutting must have been a friction problem rather than a pulling problem, because the grommets are not being deformed or pulled closer to the edge of the lacing band. I've noticed that the grommets on the top eyelets now seems to be standard on the other Harlick boots I see.
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That's going the extra mile and great photos showing the repair!
Plus GOE!
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Today I learned that I use "Russian lacing." It's just how I laced when replacing the laces they came with and doesn't seem to be causing any problems.
It does remind me that the tech mounting blades said something about the lacing being different.
The top four holes have grommets, so it hasn't been an issue. (They were somebody's custom Harlicks.) I now have a similar backup pair that do not have any grommets and wonder if I should lace differently for those? The eyelets already look oval on those.
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You may want to see if you can get grommets installed on the backup boots--a lot of hockey shops are set up to replace grommets for a pretty reasonable price.
I would not recommend lacing Harlicks in the Russian style, I don't think it is the intended lacing pattern. The loop-over lace-lock style on the hooks is fine, the main problem I have seen with hooks is damage from laces being looped around and pulled strongly away from the boot rather than across the boot. On inexpensive boots, I have seen kids pull the hooks all the way off so there is just a hole left, which makes lacing a serious nuisance.
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I'm looking at Edea's video "Correct lacing on Edea skating boot"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMd3EpUSFcY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMd3EpUSFcY)
at 0:10 - 0:24, and again at 1:45 - 2:03.
While I cannot see the ankle bones, it appears that the sides of the boot do not touch the ankle area, or perhaps only very lightly touches it, when the leg is vertical. Is that an illusion?
If it is correct, how can they provide lateral support?
Or do the Edea boots you have seen or used fit differently than that.
Only the top two hooks are laced looser, depending on the preference of the skater. The heel is locked in and the bottom hooks is tightened. Lateral support isn't just about the top two hooks. There is no joint there, so having massive amounts of tension there is not really a concern. When you're actually skating, your are going to be in [at least] slight ankle flexion, which will put tension on the tongue/laces which keeps the boot from bowing out during skating. Edeas are pitched quite aggressively, so it's really hard to spend your time on the ice standing completely upright while skating in those boots.
How the skate performs biomechanically is not the same as what someone sees in a picture or lacing video. The boot is designed to be laced that way for a reason. If you make it too tight at the top, then you actually won't allow the boot to perform properly, and will likely break it down in record time.
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See attached photos of a pair of boots I had to repair 2 days before a skater left for a synchro competition...
http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8754.0
Wow! You did that with a needle and thread, no fancy tools required?
Now you've got me wondering if I could rebuild my old boots the same way.
See
http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8754.0
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http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8754.0
Wow! You did that with a needle and thread, no fancy tools required?
Now you've got me wondering if I could rebuild my old boots the same way.
See
http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8754.0
I split the seam open and inserted a metal support pin (aka bobby pin trimmed to correct length with cut end smoothed so it would not gouge into leather, with the bent end of the bobby pin stitched in place so it wouldn't migrate from its intended location). I used a regular needle and thread to first stitch and glue the torn upper into something resembling its original configuration and then to replace the stitching that I had torn out. The stitching on the upper (across the tear) comes from a variety of angles and pulls across both above and below to provide some support and also just because I was trying to find locations where there was enough leather that the stitching had a somewhat solid anchor point. Next, I used contact cement to glue the lining and upper back together, which also glued the repair stitching to the underside of the upper.
For the replacement stitching, I pulled about a third of the thread up through the first stitching hole. Then I pulled the thread underneath taut (make sure it is at least several inches longer than the distance to the end of the repair) and used it like a bobbin thread in a sewing machine (sorry, I'm not sure what this style of sewing is called). Each stitch after the first one came down from the top, looped around the lower thread, and returned through the same hole. I've found this method much stronger in sail repairs, so it seemed like the logical choice, also because that is the type of stitching it replaced.
It can be somewhat frustrating (that's the nice way to describe it) to get the needle to go straight back up to return through the same hole, so the extent to which you want to work at that is up to you. I have a hard time being satisfied with anything that isn't pretty close. A small pair of needle-nose pliers is helpful for pulling the needle through--the contact cement layer is pretty grippy, so it's harder to pull than you might expect for a needle traveling through a previously punched hole.
The final patch on the inside is there to provide some leather that hasn't been torn through. I didn't want the lace to be pulling only on the bobby pin. I glued the patch in place and then used a leather punch to make a hole that lines up with the existing repaired lace hole. The hole on the patch has not enlarged, so it looks like the repair is working as designed.
A few nice details that you will thank yourself (or your repair person) for later:
- Hide the knots in between the upper and lining so you don't have a hard lump that can be pressed against your foot. Maybe I'm the like the Princess and the Pea, but I had to trim the thread from an area on repaired boots a few years ago because I could feel the hard spot pressing into my foot. Fortunately, up on this part of the lacing band, the tongue offers a fair amount of protection, but the knots will also get better protection if they are hidden.
Match the shape of your metal pin to the shape of the lacing band. Bobby pins come in different sizes and shapes. I have found that one of the more arc-shaped pins worked better on one repair and the type with the zigzag top layer worked better on another. I probably own a thousand bobby pins, so that is to my advantage...
Add foam as necessary to fill out areas that need filling if you are repairing the upper cuff of the boot. I've had surprisingly good luck with craft foam or material cut off a basic camping pad.
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Thanks for the very detailed instructions!
If I can find old discarded multi-layer boots in a thrift store, maybe I should try first on them.
I wonder if a sewing awl would be easier than a bobby pin. Some are rated for leather.
I think that style of sewing is known as a "lock stitch" - or at least one style of lock stitch. It's what sewing awls are designed to do too, I think. I've never used one, but they are pretty cheap. When I asked about hand-sewing at a sewing store (though I was more interested in how to sew a skin-on-frame kayak, or a kayak spray skirt), the kind lady told me she used a "hemostat" instead of a needle nose pliers. She used them to grab curved needles during hand sewing. She said that made hand sewing faster, though she wasn't talking about lock stitching. I guess because it let her minimize hand motions, but also the curved needle meant she didn't have to place her hand to the other side of the fabric, which is sometimes impossible.. She seemed pretty knowledgeable - she repaired used sewing machines.
Looking at my boots, it does look like they used lock stitching.
I took a "Home Ec" in high school. There was a section on sewing. Sewing (and Home Ec in general) didn't interest me much, but I thought that sewing machines were fascinating. I couldn't figure out back then how they worked. The teacher was interested in teaching how to use the machine, not in why they worked.
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I have tried a hemostat for this purpose as well, but mine are all set up with a clamp capability that seems to get in the way more than help (they clamp when you don't need them to and then you lose grip on the needle when unclamping). Ultimately, I found that a small pair of needle-nose pliers easier to control.
The bobby pin is not for stitching. It was used as a support bar to strengthen the torn leather lacing band. It was sewed into place and then the lacing band was glued closed. See "reinforcement installed" photo--the bobby pin is permanently installed inside the lacing band so that there is no stress on the torn/repaired part of the upper from the laces.
Most awls have large needles in them, which is far too large for stitching through the skate upper. The needle-and-pliers has the disadvantage of requiring then needle to be pulled fully through both directions, though, so finding and awl with a small needle is a good idea. I had a very short window of time to repair these boots before the skater left for a competition and I live in the Land of Limited Shopping, so I used what I had on hand.
I had the same fascination with a sewing machine when I started using one at age 6. At that point, the sewing machine and the bicycle were both the cleverest things I had come across (that I had noticed).
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I have tried a hemostat for this purpose as well, but mine are all set up with a clamp capability that seems to get in the way more than help (they clamp when you don't need them to and then you lose grip on the needle when unclamping). Ultimately, I found that a small pair of needle-nose pliers easier to control.
Operating room nurse (33+ years) opinion. Hemostats are great, but see if you can find a "needle holder". They are much better suited for what you're doing with better grip and needle stabilization. Hemostats are for grasping tissue--a much softer grip.
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Wonderful, Christy RN!
It is obvious that surgeons, and nurses who do surgery, have to be trained to sew efficiently in constrained spaces.
E.g., perhaps closing a wound in a way that leaves your hand inside the patient isn't always ideal. :blush: