Wissota or Blademaster?

[ib_jigged]

Curious what your daughter wore before the Aurora.  And if you found that the edges don't last as long, why did you buy a second pair?

She wore the Volant.  It was her coaches suggestion for the blade was why.  she skates multiple disciplines and these fits most.  Once she passes here last 3 gold dances weh will move to a blade with an 8' rocker.  She suggested Aurora or the Coronation Ace, and as long as we were at Riedell, we went with the Aurora again.  Like I mentioned, they are not bad for me to sharpen and I actually prefer sharpening these over others.  The edge lasts just fine for her.

[Query]

At some point, he had written HD Sports (Wilson/MK) asking them why they haven't switched to stainless steel (which he prefers).  All he got back was a long letter extolling the virtues of plain carbon steel.

You don't happen to know what those virtues are?

E.g., Is it possible that "silver soldering", and other forms of welding, work better or are easier on non-stainless steels?

Or is it possible that it is easier or or more reliable to nickel and chrome plate non-stainless steels than stainless steels, or that the engraving looks better?

Is it possible that the metallurgists at MK and Wilson are simply more familiar with the non-stainless steels, and know more about tempering and hardening them.

I admit I love (high carbon) stainless steel blades. My plain high carbon blades needed sharpening more often, in my personal use. And they needed more care. I rarely bother to oil or grease my stainless blades. As best I understand it, high end figure skating blades of both types are sharpened to about the same "hardness" (i.e., resistance to deformation) - i.e., the main blade is tempered to a Rockwell C hardness of about 30 or 40, and the edge is re-hardened to about 60, according to some sources. My impression is that the latter that is fairly close to the limits of how hard those stainless alloys can be hardened, whereas conventional high carbon steels can be made much harder.

But a lot of people in the high end knife community prefer plain high carbon steel. There must be some advantages that I am unaware of.

The most rust-resistant stainless steels, which are not very "high carbon", like some of the marine grade alloys, cannot be made very hard, and would probably be a bad idea for figure skates, unless you skate on ice with lots of salt or other corrosive components.

(I've also been told that some people in the hockey community prefer softer steel blades. They need to be sharpened much more often, but apparently, being less brittle, they can be made more sharp to begin with. Perhaps they are also more durable under the tough treatment hockey players give them?)

This may be a completely crazy suggestion, but could it be that HD Sports uses plain high carbon steels because they are cheaper? Also, because even the high carbon stainless steels are being hardened close to their limits on high end blades, maybe you have to do the metallurgy much more carefully - which would also affect production cost. The claims that have been made that  they have less than ideal quality control, even on their most expensive blades, suggests that they are quite production-cost conscious.

Anyway, this has little to do, AFAIK, with sharpeners. AFAIK, all the major brands of sharpener can deal with both stainless and non-stainless steels.

That said, I spoke to a coach who skated a lot on artificial ice, which rapidly wore down blades. She said that she and others there used inexpensive blades to save on costs. I think that if I wanted to experiment a lot with blade shapes, I would do the same thing. I would start by measuring the shape of the high end blades, and copy that shape to the cheap blades (though copying toe pick shape would be pretty hard). Since the Sparx isn't designed to alter rocker profiles, I would choose one of the other types. I might even choose a machine that was designed to follow a template, such as another blade. Some of them can - I'm not sure which.

You have probably already found these and other training resources:

  https://geppettosskateshop.com/skate-tech-training
  https://www.amazon.com/John-Harmata/e/B00DRDZ930/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1 (same teacher as the one above; the book is light on technical sharpening details).
  http://www.iceskateology.com/Skateology/Skateology_Manual.html
  http://www.pro-filer.com/training
  http://blademaster.com/web/usa/en/content/32-documentation-downloads
  http://blademaster.com/web/usa/en/content/33-videos
  https://www.youtube.com/user/BlademasterGuspro/videos

[tstop4me]

Anyway, this has little to do, AFAIK, with sharpeners. AFAIK, all the major brands of sharpener can deal with both stainless and non-stainless steels.

Are all major commercial sharpening machines that are capable of producing good edges on plain carbon steel blades also capable of producing good edges on stainless steel blades?  Yes.  Are all machine operators who are capable of producing good edges on plain carbon steel blades also capable of producing good edges on stainless steel blades?  No.  That's the central point of some previous posts.

[tstop4me]

Or is it possible that it is easier or or more reliable to nickel and chrome plate non-stainless steels than stainless steels, or ...

Why would you want to plate nickel and chrome onto stainless steel blades?  For plain carbon steel blades, nickel plating is used to provide rust resistance; and nickel plus chrome plating is used to provide rust resistance plus a cosmetic mirror finish.  Stainless steel blades are sufficiently rust resistant under normal operating, storage, and transport conditions that they don't need plating [if you strap your skates on your roof rack, and drive along the ocean front ... you'll have more serious problems to deal with than just rust].  If you want a cosmetic mirror finish [or you believe a smoother finish leads to higher performance], you can mirror polish them (that's what Eclipse, SkateScience, and Step do).

[Query]

Why would you want to plate nickel and chrome onto stainless steel blades?

You might not.

But I've been told by one source that MK and Wilson place greater quality control emphasis on the finish and engraving than on the factory sharpening. (In particular, that during a visited to the factory, they proudly showed him that they had a discard pile. The discards were due to problems with the finish, not to blade shape.) I'm not sure stainless steel can have quite as bright a finish as a Chrome plated steel.

And indeed, my high carbon MK and Wilson blades were shinier than my stainless steel Ultima Matrix blades, and perhaps the engraving was fancier.

Can you find a link to the posts where you discussed why it is harder to sharpen stainless? I must have missed it.

[tstop4me]

Can you find a link to the posts where you discussed why it is harder to sharpen stainless? I must have missed it.

Replies #47 and #48 above in this current thread.

This previous thread http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8394.0; in particular, Replies #3 and #5.

[Query]

Replies #47 and #48 above in this current thread.

This previous thread http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8394.0; in particular, Replies #3 and #5.

But those are what I was replying to...

I thought you meant there were other threads where this matter had been discussed in detail.

So I just went looking for web pages that discuss this. The amount of controversy on which is easier to sharpen and maintain is surprisingly large.

There does seem to be a consensus that perhaps 20 or 30 years ago, stainless steels were not as good as far as wear resistance and carbide (the impurity particles that are embedded in the steel to harden it) grain size, but some people say that the best "high carbon stainless steel alloys" - also called "high carbide stainless steel alloys" are at least as good now, though some people also say that the stainless alloy carbide particles are all very hard, which means that, ASSUMING THAT TO BE TRUE, if the abrasive material used to do the sharpening isn't very hard, it may take a longer to sharpen stainless, and it may wear out the abrasive faster.

Blademaster's catalog

  http://blademaster.com/web/img/cms/2018%20BMCatalogue%20Email.pdf

includes various grinding wheels

8VBP - The best edge retention in the industry.
Maintains radius/shape longer than any other wheel,
saving you money. Unsurpassed finish translates to a
superior quality sharpening.

8GC - Exceptional wheel for holding form – requires
fewer dresses between sharpenings. Cool cutting
action.

8AS - High performance aerospace grade grinds cool
and is optimal for edge retention.

O8RUBY - Open structured wheel for quick and cool
cutting action. Ruby abrasive with a high chromium
content.

88R - Uniform grit and closed structure for a superior
finish for recreational figure skates and goalie skates.

8MXRUBY - Premium ruby abrasive with a high
chromium content. Well suited to both carbon and
stainless steel blades. Multi-grit.

8MXR - All-purpose multi-grit nitride grained wheel that
is suitable for a wide variety of skate blades.

I guess that implies that some types of their grinding wheel might be more suitable for stainless steel blades than others - and that some of the other grinding wheels have other advantages, such as needing to be dressed less often, or perhaps being cheaper. Blademaster is, I think, the biggest company in the skate sharpening machine business, and they've been at it for a long while, so it seems like a reasonably authoritative source. (Note, however, that they don't explicitly say that any of their wheels can't sharpen stainless blades. They only say positive things about each product.)

So it IS reasonable to assume some skate techs might choose one of the grinding wheels that doesn't sharpen stainless well, which tends to confirm the claim that some skate techs might be unable to sharpen stainless steel blades well.

I have so little experience with powered sharpening machines that I simply didn't know this. I've used the Pro-Filer tools a lot, and a few other hand tools to some extent - but it never occurred to me to do timing tests to see how long it took to sharpen different blades, or to try to determine how much the sharpening tool itself is worn by the sharpening. It would be a hard test to do objectively, because working by hand involves a lot of variables.

All I can say is that I prefer the good stainless blades for myself. But I also do my own sharpening - perhaps people who don't should ask their own skate techs if they can deal with high carbon stainless steel blades. (It is also true that some skate shops do not own blade holders that could hold the high end Ultima ("Matrix") blades, Paramount blades, or MK or Wilson "Revolution" blades.) And perhaps the original poster will take into account whether the grinding wheel (and blade holder) that comes with the sharpener he plans to buy can handle the blades he chooses to buy - though grinding wheels, if still available for his machine, aren't all that expensive to replace.

I have an early 1980's era Tekna dive knife, that I read somewhere was the best dive knife in its size class made at the time. It is high cabon non-stainless steel, and was supposed to be carefully rinsed, cleaned, dried, and maybe oiled, after every exposure to salt water. But now Tekna dive knives are stainless steel or titanium. That too suggests but does not prove that stainless steels have improved a lot, at least for high corrosion environments like seawater. OTOH, the orginal Tekna company is out of business - their trademark was bought by others (see http://www.tek-tite.com/products.php?cat=TEKNA+Products) - but they are still premium quality dive knives.

[tstop4me]

So it IS reasonable to assume some skate techs might choose one of the grinding wheels that doesn't sharpen stainless well, which tends to confirm the claim that some skate techs might be unable to sharpen stainless steel blades well.

<<Emphasis in original.>>  As I've written before, even if a tech has the proper equipment (including the proper wheel), he doesn't necessarily know how to sharpen stainless steel blades properly; sharpening stainless steel blades requires different technique from sharpening plain carbon steel blades.

[Query]

FWIIW, I just skated at "The Rink" in Ithaca, NY. They have a Sparx (as well as a more professional and controllable sharpener), but don't have the figure blade holder.

The guy I spoke to didn't sound all that expert, but he said that they get about 45 sharpenings/grinding ring (the website says 60 - but apparently they , which cost $59+shipping. He said the rings could sharpen more, but it has an embedded chip which counts passes (he thinks), and it won't let you do more - kind of like an HP print cartridge. He uses it for his own hockey skates, once/week, 4 passes/blade (which, if Sparx is correct,  means he removes .002"/week, which he considers a touch-up sharpening), but he said that the picky skaters get their blades done by specific skate techs on more controllable machines. He said that hockey skaters who have a rocker profile that is more curved than usual at the ends (I guess for aggressive turning) have a slight problem with it - the points of first contact isn't as far from the ends as it should be, leading to some roughness there.

It would be really cool if Sparx added a microprocessor-controllable model that let you play with the rocker. It sounds as if they mostly have the right ideas, but profile control would make them even better.

[Query]

BTW, the people who worked for that shop told me they would not use the Sparx to change hollow radius. Because each expensive grinding ring is good for such a limited # of passes, and each pass takes off so little steel, that would of course be very expensive.

I wonder if you could convince Sparx to give you a commercial free trial, on the strength of your frequent postings to this forum:

  https://www.sparxhockey.com/pages/risk-free-trial

[Bill_S]

I ordered a Wissota 911 Deluxe sharpener outfit, and substituted a figure skate holder for the standard holder for a $50 up-charge. I took advantage of the October Sale discount of $100, which essentially pays for shipping.

I also picked up a figure skate 100 grit wheel, edge checkers, sharpening wax, and a toe pick protector.

Wish me luck!

[tstop4me]

I ordered a Wissota 911 Deluxe sharpener outfit, and substituted a figure skate holder for the standard holder for a $50 up-charge. I took advantage of the October Sale discount of $100, which essentially pays for shipping.

I also picked up a figure skate 100 grit wheel, edge checkers, sharpening wax, and a toe pick protector.

Wish me luck!

Good luck!  Very interested in your future review.  I've come close several times to buying this outfit myself, but wasn't sure I'd develop the right touch (or maintain it with infrequent use).  I was hoping to try out one of the advanced Pro-Sharp automated units, but that didn't pan out.

[Query]

Very cool. Not super-cheap, though it isn't at all high in the powered machine domain, but very cool.

Looks like a serious tool, without the limitations Sparx imposes.

Now you can experiment with your own blade shapes, if that is your pleasure. The problem, as I see it, with buying multiple blade models, is that you can't vary one parameter at a time, nor can you vary shapes gradually enough to easily adapt and figure out what works best. This gives you that ability.

And since you have traced all those profiles, you could start by copying commercial fancy shapes, onto cheap blades.

Though I guess this isn't be the right machine to create or copy your own toe pick shapes, but that wasn't what you seem to be focussing on. Anyway, maybe someone with your machining skills might be able to do that with a bench grinder or Dremel?

I'm curous how long it takes you to get a good consistant edge and blade shape.

Can you build a jig that lets your follow an established profile? Have you started thinking of how to design that? Or will you just freehand it?

[Bill_S]

I will begin by using it as merely a shapener. My first goal is to be able to sharpen thin dance blades, which I hope will arrive also this afternoon.

I have done some light daydreaming about how to do some template shaping, but haven't hit on anything easy for now. Once it's here, then the daydreams will more of a basis in reality. If I attempt anything, it will probably be just the main rocker radius. It's really too early to get into that until I've put some hours of practice in.

I won't bother with toe picks unless I have a need. It's not that I'm doing doubles or launching myself 1+ foot in the air anymore. However the toe picks of the dance skates are intentionally blunted, and some time on them will tell if that's a handicap for my style of skating.

I'll start a new thread for the Wissota once it arrives and I get it set up.

[aussieskater]

I remembering hearing about a company which does template sharpening - they sponsor Patrick Chan who has a custom grind (uses a Phantom blade but has it ground to the Gold Seal main rocker?)  I think the company is this one:  http://precisionblade.com/index.php/profiling-blades/.  They have an interesting photo of their set up including a template.  Looks a bit like the set up used for cutting spare copies of a house key!

[Bill_S]

I've seen their web site before, and it's impressive what they can do. Their equipment is far different from what the average shake shop has. Precision Blade Honing Enterprises are among the best I've ever seen.