skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: Christy on September 09, 2020, 01:06:56 PM
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I'm starting a separate thread as I don't want to hijack another one. I saw a comment that not all skate sharpeners (the tool, not the person) can sharpen stainless blades. I know that Matrix blades need a special jig because of the chassis, but had always assumed that all skate sharpeners could sharpen both carbon and stainless blades.
The reason I ask is that I have Matrix stainless blades and have recently changed sharpeners, purely for geographical reasons. My old sharpener did a great job and I never had a problem. My new sharpener doesn't have the jig but can sharpen Matrix blades so I specified the ROH and provided a pair of blades recently sharpened by the good sharpener, however after 4 attempts there's been one sharpening that was OKish and I could skate with. All of the other sharpenings have resulted in me sticking to the ice, not being able to get any edges, and all sorts of other issues that have meant wasted ice sessions. Other people use that sharpener, and those with stainless blades have commented that they need one or two sessions after a sharpening to "break the blades in," which is not something I ever had to do with my old sharpener.
The new sharpener tells me he is doing the correct ROH so I am trying to work out the problem and how we can fix it. Obviously every skate sharpening machine is different, the diamond is different, the pressure applied is different, the number of passes, etc. but I am now wondering if it could be the fact the blades are stainless that is causing the problem? Any thoughts or advice please?
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The first thing that I'd do is to check to see if the edges are level. Uneven edges may cause similar issues. Use a stick of wood and press it against the blade. Sight down the length of the blade to see if the stick is level across the edges.
You DON'T want to see something like this...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/wissota/kristens_skates_wissota-31-800px.jpg)
My Wissota sharpener provides a choice of two grinding wheels - one meant specifically for stainless, especially stainless hockey runners (https://wissota.com/product/911-skate-sharpener-80-grit-pink-grinding-wheel-stone (https://wissota.com/product/911-skate-sharpener-80-grit-pink-grinding-wheel-stone/)),
...and another specifically for carbon steel blades - (https://wissota.com/product/blue-wheel (https://wissota.com/product/blue-wheel/)).
Because I skate on carbon steel blades, I purchased the Wissota "blue" wheel designed for them. However, I have sharpened stainless blades using that wheel. They have all been children's skates with low-level blades FWIW. It takes longer to sharpen stainless because it cuts slower, and I need to dress the grinding wheel more frequently to keep it from becoming fouled. I can get a smooth finish on them if I use Wissota's Skate Sharpening Wax on the blade for the last pass or two, otherwise the surface is slightly rougher than carbon steel. However, I don't know if that difference is enough to produce what you describe.
To have something to compare, here's a photo of a carbon steel blade that I sharpened, for practice, on an ancient rusty pair of skates...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/wissota/wissota_1st_cut-24.jpg)
This is typical of what I get on carbon steel with the 100 grit wheel. I would suspect that the 80 grit (Wissota pink wheel) would not produce a surface as smooth because it is coarser, but I would still expect it to be fine on the ice.
Check for level edges first before exploring different grinding wheels.
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I'm starting a separate thread as I don't want to hijack another one. I saw a comment that not all skate sharpeners (the tool, not the person) can sharpen stainless blades. I know that Matrix blades need a special jig because of the chassis, but had always assumed that all skate sharpeners could sharpen both carbon and stainless blades.
The reason I ask is that I have Matrix stainless blades and have recently changed sharpeners, purely for geographical reasons. My old sharpener did a great job and I never had a problem. My new sharpener doesn't have the jig but can sharpen Matrix blades so I specified the ROH and provided a pair of blades recently sharpened by the good sharpener, however after 4 attempts there's been one sharpening that was OKish and I could skate with. All of the other sharpenings have resulted in me sticking to the ice, not being able to get any edges, and all sorts of other issues that have meant wasted ice sessions. Other people use that sharpener, and those with stainless blades have commented that they need one or two sessions after a sharpening to "break the blades in," which is not something I ever had to do with my old sharpener.
The new sharpener tells me he is doing the correct ROH so I am trying to work out the problem and how we can fix it. Obviously every skate sharpening machine is different, the diamond is different, the pressure applied is different, the number of passes, etc. but I am now wondering if it could be the fact the blades are stainless that is causing the problem? Any thoughts or advice please?
<<Emphasis added.>> Here is another difference between stainless steel and plain carbon steel blades. During grinding, burrs are formed along the edges. The tech typically removes the burrs with a whetstone. But the burrs on stainless steel tend to be more pronounced and persistent than on plain carbon steel. So the deburring needs to be done more meticulously. The fact that other skaters with stainless steel blades are OK after one or more break-in sessions points towards this problem. If you don't know how to feel for burrs (Be careful! You can get nasty cuts on your finger tips, if you do it wrong.), ask an experienced skater or coach to show you how to feel for them, and, if present, how to remove them.
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This is typical of what I get on carbon steel with the 100 grit wheel. I would suspect that the 80 grit (Wissota pink wheel) would not produce a surface as smooth because it is somewhat coarser, but I would still expect it to be fine on the ice.
I looked at the Wissota site, and they didn't specify the composition of the wheels. On other brands, the wheels vary in composition as well as grit size: typically (harder) silicon carbide for faster removal and (softer) aluminum oxide for a better finish.
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<<Emphasis added.>> Here is another difference between stainless steel and plain carbon steel blades. During grinding, burrs are formed along the edges. The tech typically removes the burrs with a whetstone. But the burrs on stainless steel tend to be more pronounced and persistent than on plain carbon steel. So the deburring needs to be done more meticulously. The fact that other skaters with stainless steel blades are OK after one or more break-in sessions points towards this problem. If you don't know how to feel for burrs (Be careful! You can get nasty cuts on your finger tips, if you do it wrong.), ask an experienced skater or coach to show you how to feel for them, and, if present, how to remove them.
I know the original sharpener definitely used a whetstone, as I watched him, but the new sharpener doesn't allow people to watch, however I did ask if he did that and he told me that he does.
I also asked how many passes he does on the wheel as the original sharpener did around 3, checked the blade, then another 2 or 3. The new sharpener seemed to think that was a low number and said he does about 10. Not sure if that makes a difference.
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I know the original sharpener definitely used a whetstone, as I watched him, but the new sharpener doesn't allow people to watch, however I did ask if he did that and he told me that he does.
I also asked how many passes he does on the wheel as the original sharpener did around 3, checked the blade, then another 2 or 3. The new sharpener seemed to think that was a low number and said he does about 10. Not sure if that makes a difference.
There's still the issue of how well he uses the whetstone. At one time, a very good sharpener went MIA, and several of my friends went to a new guy. They were having all sorts of problems. I checked their edges, and the deburring was done sloppily (and these were plain carbon steel). I carry a whetstone [and a steel (I'm probably the only person who does)] in my kit bag. I fixed the burrs, and they were really happy. So you still need to check ... as well as the levelness of the edges, as Bill suggested.
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There's still the issue of how well he uses the whetstone. At one time, a very good sharpener went MIA, and several of my friends went to a new guy. They were having all sorts of problems. I checked their edges, and the deburring was done sloppily (and these were plain carbon steel). I carry a whetstone [and a steel (I'm probably the only person who does)] in my kit bag. I fixed the burrs, and they were really happy. So you still need to check ... as well as the levelness of the edges, as Bill suggested.
Will definitely check the levelness and work out how to check for burrs. I'm not sure the coaches know as they just suggested the skates might be too sharp. Actually that's what the new sharpener said too. He said maybe change ROH to 1/2 and that would reduce sharpness, but I think the burrs possibility sounds more sensible as I tried 1/2 once and didn't like it, and I've always been happy with 7/16ths. I'm also a bit confused about how "too sharp" would make my blades stick to the ice :-\
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Will definitely check the levelness and work out how to check for burrs. I'm not sure the coaches know as they just suggested the skates might be too sharp. Actually that's what the new sharpener said too. He said maybe change ROH to 1/2 and that would reduce sharpness, but I think the burrs possibility sounds more sensible as I tried 1/2 once and didn't like it, and I've always been happy with 7/16ths. I'm also a bit confused about how "too sharp" would make my blades stick to the ice :-\
If you can't find someone who knows how to check for burrs, let me know, and I'll make a sketch (rather convoluted using words only).
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If you can't find someone who knows how to check for burrs, let me know, and I'll make a sketch (rather convoluted using words only).
Thank you so much for the offer :D I'll ask around and let you know if I can find the info.
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One of the signs of a good sharpener is that the results are CONSISTENT. I'm not convinced by your description that he qualifies. I'm not sure that the wrong wheel would produce the inconsistent results you describe. Though if he uses a really coarse grain wheel, so he can sharpen blades faster, that might lead to somewhat inconsistent results, as well as very dull edges.
I wonder if, without the right jig, he is trying to level and/or center the blade on the wheel by hand. A really good tech can do that, using hand or power tools, but you need better hand-eye coordination than I personally possess.
If the sharpener is GOOD, and doesn't remove much metal / sharpening, a blade will last about 30 sharpenings, more or less. (Assume a good sharpener using power tools removes .003 inches of steel. Assume the relationship of your toe pick to the rest of your blade is messed up after .1 inches are removed.) So -- drop 3 sharpenings off the lifetime, and see how much the bad attempts cost you in terms of replacing blades - you are paying for more than lost ice time. E.g., if your blades cost $300-$500 per pair, each sharpening costs you at least $10-$16.67 more per pair than you think, maybe several times that. Add in lost ice time, wasted lessons, and he is costing you a lot. If you actually drive to his shop, that costs you more too.
If he isn't very good, he is probably removing more metal, maybe several times as much or more, and you may be paying even more for his sharpenings, indirectly. If there is another nearby tech within a few hours drive, it is likely worth it. Dubious techs also frequently modify the rocker profile (the longitudinal edge curvatures) in unpredictable ways, leaving you with a blade that can be very difficult to skate on. For example, new blades have one or more transition points up front, near the ball of your foot, between different rocker curvatures. You typically balance on or near that point, especially when turning or spinning. But if the tech smooths out the transition, or moves it, you can't feel where it is anymore, and you may rock around different parts of the blade. A really, really bad tech may remove part of your toe pick, and if he does that badly enough, you may as well throw away the blade.
Amazingly, some skaters van learn to skate on slightly uneven blade edges. But if the tilt goes back and forth along the blade, that gets really hard to correct for.
Another possibility: are either of your blades warped? E.g., if you put a straight edge along the side of the blade, can you see a gap anywhere? A second rate skate tech using a power sharpener, especially one without the proper blade holder, will produces edges that tilt one way at the ends, and another in the middle, or some other such uneven pattern.
Very sharp blades are BTW very easy to have misaligned, in terms of the fact that the edges might not point straight down. In particular, sometimes the edges are pushed off to the sides by sharpening - forming a "lip" or "burr".
If you want to feel the edges, to see how they point, touch them very lightly. I do not recommend drawing your finger ALONG the edge, as it is quite easy to cut yourself that way. I draw my finger ACROSS the edge, very, very lightly. If you do cut yourself (I don't, anymore), wash the cut clean, and bandage - you don't want an infection.
You can point the edges correctly, or deburr them (deburring means deliberately making them less sharp, but the ultrasharp pointed foil edges I prefer are more fragile), using a number of techniques. I take a small very fine grain flat sharpening stone, and brush the edge from the side upwards. In fact, half the time or more, that will work just as well as re-sharpening the edges, because a lot of the time non-sharp edges have just been bent. The technique is a little harder for edges that are bent inwards, but if you are careful, you can do it.
The usual technique is not to slide the stone along the sides - which scratches them up, and possibly therefore slows down the blades - but to bend them very slightly inwards.
There are a lot of Youtube videos demonstrating this type of thing.
tsop4me says he prefers using a "steel" to straighten edges. I haven't tried that. I like the fine flat stone partly because it also polishes the edge to make the edge more clean, but in theory, a steel might mean you would need to fully sharpen even less often.
Have you asked other skaters what they are doing about this bad tech? I assume they are having problems too. Maybe they have found someone they like, and you can carpool, or alternate who takes a group of skates with them to the distant tech.
I personally love sharpening myself using good purpose-built hand tools, like the Pro-Filer (http://www.pro-filer.com/profiler), but I admit it takes time to learn to DIY. It costs about $80 and is only available for 3/8" and 1/2", which is high - but compared to the costs I just cited, it isn't so bad. I try to remove no more than about .001 inches / sharpening - but if your dubious skate tech has made the edges uneven, or made them very dull, you will need to remove more to correct things the first time. If you do it right, you can substantially increase the lifetime of your blades relative to sharpening with power tools, especially if your tech is incompetent - but of course, you can do it wrong. E.g., it is really important you trace or otherwise record the original rocker profile, so you don't lose it. I also like to cover the toe picks with tape first, so I can't destroy them.
Buying your own power sharpening tool, like Bill did, is a pretty expensive route, if you are only doing your own blades. And that has an even bigger learning curve, because metal comes off so fast. Also, it won't fit in your skate bag. I personally haven't done it.
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Thank you for the info. It gives me a lot to consider.
Most people use this sharpener, as there aren't many options, however very few have Matrix blades. In fact the only person I know who has Matrix blades did say they had some problems after a sharpening, but I think they have adapted to the way the blades have been sharpened. I can't visit my original sharpener because of Covid, but plan to return to them as soon as I can, so this is a (hopefully) temporary problem. I totally understand what you are saying about shortening the life of the blades and I don't expect them to last beyond the sharpenings with this new sharpener! Fortunately I managed to get them for a good price, and the sharpener said they'd checked them and they weren't warped. (I do trust them with this as they are very detail oriented).
To be fair this new sharpener is very willing to work with me to try to get a sharpening that works, but I think their experience and knowledge of Matrix blades is very limited and the lack of the correct equipment is definitely causing problems.
As I say I provided a pair of blades sharpened by my original sharpener as a guide and told them I wanted an ROH of 7/16ths. After the first sharpening I explained the problems I was having, and both the sharpener and my coach said maybe they were just too sharp. When I asked if they finished the blades with a stone they said they did but I got the impression it was just a cursory glance. I will ask specifically if they check for burrs and remove them, but I think I may get a blank look.
One thing I am struggling with is that both new sharpener and coach I ask keep saying the problem is probably the blades being too sharp (but I'm sticking to the ice!), then the sharpener says they will change ROH from 7/16th to 1/2 so they won't be as sharp, but I didn't think the ROH dictated the sharpness. I get the impression the sharpener is making a lot more passes on the wheel, and I was thinking that would make them sharper, and from the info I've learned today I'm wondering if more passes on the wheel would also cause more burrs? Am I totally wrong?
I'm thinking I should say 7/16ths (because that's always worked in the past), only 4-6 passes on the wheel, and check really well for burrs and stone them out (which pretty much describes the process of my original sharpener, which worked)
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If you can't find someone who knows how to check for burrs, let me know, and I'll make a sketch (rather convoluted using words only).
Thank you so much for the offer :D I'll ask around and let you know if I can find the info.
I had time to kill; here you go. Let me know if you need clarification. [Note: This is the method I use. Other people use different methods.]
CHECKING FOR BURRS ON A FIGURE SKATE BLADE
Click figure below to enlarge. I’ve used a Paramount blade for illustration, but the construction is similar to a Matrix blade (chassis plus runner).
(1) Place one skate (boot plus blade) on a table or on your lap. Blade is oriented as shown in Fig. 1A (boot not shown): blade is horizontal, side of runner facing up, edge pointing away from you. Hold the skate down firmly with one hand.
(2) Refer to Fig. 1A. You should test the entire length of the blade (from drag pick to tail) for burrs. The vertical red arrows indicate the approximate positions along the blade at which you should test; pay extra attention to the spin rocker. I test about every 3/8” along the spin rocker, about every 1” along the main rocker, and at the tail. Exact spacings aren’t critical; i.e., you don’t need to use a ruler.
(3) Refer to Fig. 1B. At each test position, you use a sliding fingernail test to check for the presence of a burr. I use my index finger (of my free hand; i.e., the hand not holding down the skate). Place the tip of your fingernail such that it lightly touches the side of the runner. [Caution: Use the tip of your fingernail. Do not use the fleshy tip of your finger (under some scenarios, you can get a nasty cut if you do.] Starting position is about 1/8” below the edge (not critical). Slowly slide the tip along the side of the runner in the direction shown (perpendicular to the edge); the tip should maintain contact with the side of the runner as you slide the tip. Slide the tip towards the edge. Continue sliding until the tip just passes the edge.
(4) If there is no burr, you won’t feel anything. If there’s a minor burr, you will feel a slight bump near the edge. If there’s a major burr, your tip will snag.
(5) Repeat the sliding fingernail test at each position indicated in Fig. 1A.
(6) Flip the skate left-to-right. Repeat the tests on the other side of the blade; i.e., you check for burrs along the inside edge and along the outside edge of the blade.
(7) Repeat the sequence with the other skate; i.e., you check for burrs along a total of four edges (inside edge of left skate, outside edge of left skate, inside edge of right skate, outside edge of right skate).
( 8 ) It’s not as bad as it sounds. The first time, proceed slowly and deliberately to avoid cutting yourself. With practice, you can do everything in about a min or two.
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One thing I am struggling with is that both new sharpener and coach I ask keep saying the problem is probably the blades being too sharp (but I'm sticking to the ice!), then the sharpener says they will change ROH from 7/16th to 1/2 so they won't be as sharp, but I didn't think the ROH dictated the sharpness. I get the impression the sharpener is making a lot more passes on the wheel, and I was thinking that would make them sharper, and from the info I've learned today I'm wondering if more passes on the wheel would also cause more burrs? Am I totally wrong?
I'm thinking I should say 7/16ths (because that's always worked in the past), only 4-6 passes on the wheel, and check really well for burrs and stone them out (which pretty much describes the process of my original sharpener, which worked)
* Depends on how you define sharpness. If you approximate each edge of the blade as a V-shaped knife edge, then one characterization of sharpness is the included angle of the V (also known as wedge angle or knife angle). With careful qualifications (which I won't get into), the smaller the included angle, the sharper the edge.
* A skate blade is ground with a hollow to provide two distinct edges, an inside edge and an outside edge. The included angle of each edge is indeed varied by changing the radius of hollow (ROH). A smaller ROH yields a smaller included angle; hence, a sharper edge. I posted a detailed mathematical analysis in 2015: http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=7547.msg90425#msg90425. Note that the change in included angle with ROH is slight, but many skaters can feel the difference under actual skating conditions between, e.g., a 7/16" and a 1/2" ROH or a 3/8" and a 7/16" ROH. The ease of glide and the degree of edge control depends on a number of factors, including ice temperature, weight of skater, and (perhaps most importantly) skill of skater. Under the qualifier "all other things being equal", a sharper edge will bite more into the ice, resulting in reduced glide (but the blade shouldn't stick under the typical range of ROH).
* If the grinding wheel is properly centered with respect to the blade, the inside and outside edges will be level, and the included angles of the inside and outside edges will be the same; i.e., they will be equally sharp. If the grinding wheel is not properly centered with respect to the blade, the inside and outside edges will not be level, and the included angles of the inside and outside edges will not be the same; i.e., one edge will be sharper than the other. In that case, you should notice a substantial difference in glide and edge control depending on whether you are on an inside or outside edge.
* In most (not all), commercial sharpening machines, the ROH of the grinding wheel is set by dressing the wheel with a diamond-tipped dresser. The position of the dresser can be varied to vary the ROH. There are typically calibration marks on the dresser assembly that indicate the values of the ROH. If the dresser assembly is out of whack, the ROH of the wheel can differ from the indicated value. That is, even if the tech sets the ROH to 7/16", the actual ROH could be, e.g., 3/8" (leading to sharper edges than intended) or 1/2" (leading to duller edges than intended). The only way to know for sure is to use special gauges to measure the final ROH on the blade itself. These gauges do require some practice and skill to use properly. Most techs I've come across do not measure actual ROH on the blade. If you want to play Sherlock Holmes, you'll need to buy your own gauges and learn how to use them properly [if you go this route, make sure the gauge is compatible with your blade].
* You can't simply go by the number of passes. The amount removed varies with the grit and composition of the wheel, rotational speed and diameter of the wheel, the particular steel of the blade, and the particular technique used by the tech (e.g., pressure and feed rate). Depending on all these variables, 3 passes in one scenario could remove more material than 10 passes in another scenario.
* Sorry, but life is complicated, if you simply want to skate. If you have a good tech with good equipment, you don't need to fret about all these details. But if you don't, .....
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Oh wow, thank you so much for the information. I'm going to read through it in more detail and check my blades over to see what I can find.
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AFAICT, 7/16" is the most common figure skating ROH, in the area I live. It is not extreme.
Changing ROH potentially wastes a lot of metal, particularly when you go to a larger ROH. Don't do it more often than you need to.
ROH has a big effect on the sharpness that you feel, but isn't everything. A lot of sharpness depends on how much the edge is "rounded off", as well as whether there is a planer "foil edge" that extends past the included angle created between the hollow and the sides of the blade, and in the latter case, how long that foil edge is. Finally, if your edges are not level, especially if they vary in relative length along the blade, that too can make a blade act less sharp, because your edge will sometimes be misaligned relative to the ice and the direction you push against it.
Have you ever sharpened a pocket knife or kitchen knife with a flat grinding "stone"? The most common technique I've seen is to pull (draw) the blade (blunt side first) against the flat stone, so that the pressure from the stone gradually pulls out the metal, polishes and lengthens the edge. The angle of the blade to the stone sets the included angle, which is one form of sharpness, which is what ROH sets. But, because the metal is pulled thin, there is a "foil edge", resembling a very thin sheet of metal, attached to the included angle, that adds a lot of extra sharpness.
The pressure from the stone also pushes that edge to one side and another. That's why you draw alternately on opposite sides of the blade - and why you gradually decrease the pressure as you do so, so the foil edge ends up centered.
(There is, BTW, an alternate technique, where instead of pulling out the length of the foil, you push the blade, sharp side first, against the stone, that I think doesn't produce a foil edge.)
Powered skate sharpening machines work differently, but there are similarities.
Most are longitudinal grinders, which turn along the blade. On all the machines I have seen except one very low end automated consumer market tool, you use a diamond dresser to shape the wheel, across its thickness, to the desired ROH. You then grind the wheel against the blade. You slide the blade along the tool to get most of the blade.
That grind creates the overall hollow shape and ROH, which in turn creates the inside and outside included edge angles between the hollow and the sides of the blade.
Depending on a number of factors, like the speed, composition and coarseness of the wheel, the speed the tech works at, perhaps the composition, hardness and tempering of the blade, and whether or not the tech uses a lubricant, the stone sometimes pushes rough little lips or burrs out sideways from the blade.
Based on an informal microscope study, a relatively coarse wheel, with no lubricant, does NOT produce a foil, or lip or burr, on the machine I tested that on. But a fine grain wheel does, perhaps especially if you lubricate the metal as you grind.
Likewise, with the finer grain Pro-Filer hand tool, I do get one, especially if I lubricate.
What you then do with that foil, lip or burr tremendously affects the effective sharpness. "Deburring" usually means removing it. It usually also rounds off the edge a bit, and you get a relatively dull edge. The advantage is that there is less difference between a newly sharpened blade and one you have used for a while, so you don't need to adapt much between new and older blade edges, within limits.
The other method is to polish the foil, lip or burr into a true foil, so it is very flat and thin, and to push it around so it extends vertically down into the ice.
A foil is overwhelmingly sharper than the edge from the included angle. So, if it is properly pointed in the right direction, it is much more effective in preventing skids. If it were too long, it would sink too deep into the ice, and slow you down. But the idea is to make it fairly short, so the included angle from the hollow grind stops it from sinking too deep.
In the speed skating world, few people deburr. (Note they also use a flat stone to create a flat bottom instead of a hollow, so they only have a 90 degree angle at the included edges, which isn't very sharp - foils help.) In fact, they tend to create fairly long foils, which gives them a lot of bite at the start of a race heat. By the end of a race heat, they have mostly worn down the foil.
Instead of needing ultra-sharp blades, you CAN learn to point your skates and edges very precisely, so when you push down on a blade, the blade is angled precisely at right angles to the direction of push. With that technique, you can get away with edges that are not very sharp. (You can also, like many hockey players, push very hard into the ice.) I sometimes deliberately let my blades go dull, so I can get that blade alignment trick back, and am less dependent on sharp blades.
But on rough ice, or on ice that varies in hardness with temperature, ultra-sharp foil edges cut through the surface junk, and let me skate smoothly and fairly fast despite the rough surface. The way I skate doesn't have to depend much on how smooth the ice is, or its temperature.
But with foil edge, if I walk on the edges off-ice - even on rubber mats - without blade guards, that pushes the foil back out to the sides, which effectively means there is no edge. It's a trade-off. Even a very hard stop might push it over.
I like foil edges partly because it comes from reshaping the blade. I don't need to remove as much metal per sharpening. But it is more fragile, and requires more frequent sharpening.
You need to figure out what you like, for the rinks and conditions you skate on. If your ice conditions are fairly consistently good, maybe you don't need super-sharp blades.
If you sharpen yourself, you can play to find what you like. Skaters vary substantially in what they like, and skate techs vary substantially on what they try to produce - especially if they aren't specifically asked to produce a particular edge type. What is more, very few skate techs are capable of producing very consistent results using powered sharpening machines. I can get more consistent results with hand tools.
Techs also vary a lot in what they do near or on the toe pick. In principle, the part of the "spin rocker" (see tstop4me's diagram) closest to the toe pick doesn't touch the ice, because of the angles involved, and doesn't need to be sharpened. Sid Broadbent calls it the "NSZ=non skating zone" or something along those lines. Likewise, unless you do a tremendous number of jumps, the toe pick will stay fairly sharp. But if you push hard, do a jump landing, they get used, and you can skid there too. AFAICT, it is very hard to sharpen the NSZ or toe pick with powered sharpening tools, but I have done it with hand tools.
The Matrix blades I have (an older model, which had replaceable runners) were factory sharpened very sharp, including the NSZ toe pick - much sharper everywhere than the MK and Wilson blades I used to use, and sharper than most skate techs do. I don't know if that is still true of modern Matrix blades.
BTW, some skate techs get a little extra life out of blades by trimming the toe picks shorter when so much metal has been removed from the rest of the blade that the toe pick gets in the way. Most don't try, and you can only go so far before the working part of the toe pick gets too far forward of the rest of your foot. That's probably not a factor for you yet, but it is one more excuse for learning to sharpen yourself.
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Thank you for the info. Still processing a lot of it, but yes, for my original sharpener I got the impression 7/16ths was the most popular ROH, however not sure that's the case with the new sharpener.
I'd say the ice does change from summer to winter, but it's fairly consistent across a season. Am I correct in thinking that sharpness is not what would cause me to stick to the ice, not get edges, etc. but burrs or uneven blades would cause problems?
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I mean, it's true that a deeper grind (7/16 is deeper than 1/2) will give your blades more bite (which might or might not also be described as sticking) because there's more edge to be pushed into the ice. But that's an issue you'd notice skating on the different grinds, you shouldn't see a difference if it's always sharpened to 7/16.
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Something that happened to me.....I skate on a 3/8, and one of our sharpeners here at the rink gave me something so deep it was off my gauge. It was scary to skate on, although I don't recall it being sticky. But could this new guy be giving you a "7/16ths" that is, you know, maybe deeper than your normal guys 7/16ths? (and no, I don't let him sharpen my skates anymore)
I don't know how many take the time to measure and double check their work......
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You can guess ROH with coins.
A 3/8" ROH will exactly fit a a U.S. penny.
A 7/16" ROH is between a U.S. nickel and quarter.
A 1/2" ROH is slightly smaller than a U.S. dollar coin. (Editted - I orginally said bigger)
I based that on https://www.usmint.gov/learn/coin-and-medal-programs/coin-specifications
BTW diameter=2*radius.
A "radius gauge" set, also called "radius gage", "fillet gauge" or "fillet gage", with inch units in the right range, is fairly cheap online, and gives you more precision. The cheapest are in metric units, but you could convert.
With a little work, one of us could draw circles of appropriate radius on a PDF, with inch scales in each dimension that you could verify were scaled right when you print it. But it is harder to visually match than to physically fit a coin or gauge against the hollow.
If your local hardware store doesn't have a gauge set, maybe they have 7/16" dowel rod or pipe that you could buy in a short length? (Dowels aren't always perfectly round, or exactly cut, but are close enough if you aren't too picky.)
It is possible that a blade that isn't new cut, will have a little flatter hollow than the desired ROH nearest the sides. Try to fit against the center.
Perhaps one of the engineers here could work out a better way to make a cheap home made ROH tool?
But the original poster complained of inconsistent results. If the sharpener (skate tech) used a badly calibrated tool, that isn't what they would get.
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Just adding two cents in, about the sharpening process. Does your tech redress the wheel between skates and make sure that the blade is level to the wheel or does he sharpen as a pair? My tech always treats each blade individually and it prevents a lot of problems. People wear edges differently on each skate and they can’t be treated as a unit.
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Just adding two cents in, about the sharpening process. Does your tech redress the wheel between skates and make sure that the blade is level to the wheel or does he sharpen as a pair? My tech always treats each blade individually and it prevents a lot of problems. People wear edges differently on each skate and they can’t be treated as a unit.
Could you clarify what you mean? With standard sharpening equipment, figure skate blades necessarily need to be sharpened individually. The only duplex sharpening units I've seen are manual units for speed skate blades (since they have no hollow and are ground flat).
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Perhaps one of the engineers here could work out a better way to make a cheap home made ROH tool?
You can buy a set of el-cheapo radius gauges in the $20 - $25 range (typically 1/2" max; you'll need extras for larger sizes). These are not hardened and precision ground like the high-grade sets used by machinists in a good shop, but adequate for infrequent use as a blade checker. In my area, that's the cost of one sharpening.
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Could you clarify what you mean? With standard sharpening equipment, figure skate blades necessarily need to be sharpened individually. The only duplex sharpening units I've seen are manual units for speed skate blades (since they have no hollow and are ground flat).
Absolutely! I wrote it waaay too early in the morning. My tech (who’s teaching me to sharpen) and my own personal experience have taught me that bad skate techs treat a pair of skates as a single unit. They’ll set up the wheel for one blade, sharpen it, and then sharpen the other blade without adjusting anything. It often ends up with one skate that has uneven edges and the other skate perfectly fine.
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Absolutely! I wrote it waaay too early in the morning. My tech (who’s teaching me to sharpen) and my own personal experience have taught me that bad skate techs treat a pair of skates as a single unit. They’ll set up the wheel for one blade, sharpen it, and then sharpen the other blade without adjusting anything. It often ends up with one skate that has uneven edges and the other skate perfectly fine.
Thanks. That makes sense.
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You can buy a set of el-cheapo radius gauges in the $20 - $25 range (typically 1/2" max; you'll need extras for larger sizes). These are not hardened and precision ground like the high-grade sets used by machinists in a good shop, but adequate for infrequent use as a blade checker. In my area, that's the cost of one sharpening.
You can go a little cheaper - here (https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-32-PC-Radius-Gage-Set-17-64-Inch-To-1-2-Inch-by-64ths/303109878191?hash=item4692c1b1af:g:bbcAAOSwbaxcgNUw) is $11.77.
I found one once for $4 or $5 - but cheap SAE unit radius gauges have become less common.
Is there really a significant ROH difference on the wheel going between just two blades? Even the most expert skate techs I've watched did not redress the wheel between the members of a pair of skates. Many skate techs sharpen a batch of dozen or more pairs with one dressing. It's one of the ways shops economize on time and wheel lifetime.
The original poster can probably get what is desired (slightly less sticky blades) simply by slightly dulling the edges with a flat stone, like this one (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Professional-Flattening-Flat-Stone-for-Whetstone-Waterstone-Knife-Sharpeners/133405353251?hash=item1f0f942523:g:808AAOSwy~JetR8O). They are available very cheap. All this stuff about measuring ROH, and fancy edge shaping, is likely much more than she needs. I should have stopped there, and not gotten into the issue of sharpening or measuring her own blades. I apologize for bringing the issue up, when what she wants is probably so simple. :nvm:
She could maybe even make do with the type that you sometimes find in dollar stores, though they tend to be a bit coarse. It is conceivable she could dull the blade a bit with very fine sandpaper, though I've not tried it.
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Is there really a significant ROH difference on the wheel going between just two blades? Even the most expert skate techs I've watched did not redress the wheel between the members of a pair of skates. Many skate techs sharpen a batch of dozen or more pairs with one dressing. It's one of the ways shops economize on time and wheel lifetime.
It’s not an ROH difference, it’s a level difference. Given how exact sharpening is, taking a skate on and off the holder can affect how ‘square’ the blade is in relation to the wheel. My tech always checks the level of the blade to the wheel before starting the sharpening so as not to waste metal and time spent correcting preventable errors.
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^^^ This ^^^
If you want perfectly level edges, you have to treat each blade separately. Without it, you'll probably be OK with slight levelness variations, but perfection demands individual adjustment.
I swear that if I un-clamp a blade, then clamp the same blade again immediately for another pass, I will get a slight difference.
How much variation from level edges a skater can tolerate is the big question. I've seen a skater do wonderful things on these horrible edges. You don't even need a straight edge to see the problem here.
[click to enlarge]
(https://www.afterness.com/skating/images/wissota/blades_emily_sharpening-7-800px.jpg)
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You can go a little cheaper - here (https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-32-PC-Radius-Gage-Set-17-64-Inch-To-1-2-Inch-by-64ths/303109878191?hash=item4692c1b1af:g:bbcAAOSwbaxcgNUw) is $11.77.
I found one once for $4 or $5 - but cheap SAE unit radius gauges have become less common.
If you can get a set of radius gauges for the same cost, or substantially less than the cost, of a single sharpening, why would anyone bother trying to make their own gauges?
The original poster can probably get what is desired (slightly less sticky blades) simply by slightly dulling the edges with a flat stone, like this one (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Professional-Flattening-Flat-Stone-for-Whetstone-Waterstone-Knife-Sharpeners/133405353251?hash=item1f0f942523:g:808AAOSwy~JetR8O). They are available very cheap. All this stuff about measuring ROH, and fancy edge shaping, is likely much more than she needs. I should have stopped there, and not gotten into the issue of sharpening or measuring her own blades. I apologize for bringing the issue up, when what she wants is probably so simple. :nvm:
She could maybe even make do with the type that you sometimes find in dollar stores, though they tend to be a bit coarse. It is conceivable she could dull the blade a bit with very fine sandpaper, though I've not tried it.
I'd be careful here. Too coarse a stone can readily damage edges enough that a trip back to the sharpener would be warranted. The super-el-cheapo stone you referenced is some generic stone shipped directly from China. It's listed as "coarse". It's also not listed as a whetstone, but as a flattening stone for dressing whetstones. Some of what's written in the listing doesn't make sense (and not a language issue either). I personally would stay away from it.
Stone manufacturers used to specify grit sizes, but that seems to be rare these days. Terms like, "coarse", "medium", and "fine" are not standardized and vary a lot among different suppliers. If you have no experience with a specific stone, it's best to go to a hardware or sporting goods store to feel them. If that's not viable these days, and you need to order online on good faith alone, here's a good stone for deburring skate blades: (https://www.nortonabrasives.com/en-us/product/india-ao-single-grit-benchstone), Norton India Aluminum Oxide (AO) Benchstone, Fine Grit, 4" X 1" X 1/4", Subshape FB14, Norton Product Code 61463685570. Prices have gone up some recently due to supply chain disruptions (and, I think, tariff increases; they're now made in Mexico, not the US). Amazon 3rd-party vendors now sell it for ~$12. [ETA: I just checked the last time I bought one. In 2015, I bought a pack of 5 for $33 (cheaper by the pack); single unit price was ~$8 or $9, I think. Some coaches (including mine) were interested in deburring stones, but didn't have a clue what to get. I bought a pack of 5, gave 3 away as freebies, and kept 2 for myself.]
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I mean, it's true that a deeper grind (7/16 is deeper than 1/2) will give your blades more bite (which might or might not also be described as sticking) because there's more edge to be pushed into the ice. But that's an issue you'd notice skating on the different grinds, you shouldn't see a difference if it's always sharpened to 7/16.
It's true that the depth of hollow (DOH) increases as the radius of hollow (ROH) decreases: the DOH for 7/16" ROH is greater than the DOH for 1/2" ROH. But the extra bite is due principally to the smaller included angle of the edge when you reduce the ROH. Unless the ice is extremely mushy, you never dig the blade deep enough for the bottom of the hollow to contact the ice surface. That's why, when skating on a single edge, you see a single thin tracing (|); and when skating on a flat (two edges), you see a double thin tracing (||). You typically won't see one thick tracing (|), indicating you've bottomed out.
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You are right. I failed to check how fine that stone was.
It may be less common to list grit, but I see about 8000 entries on eBay where the grit of a sharpening stone is listed.
I generally use a 5000 grit flat stone to adjust the burr, maybe more fine than is needed. I think I paid about $10 for it, but it was probably overkill - I think a 2000 or 3000 grit stone would have been good enough. Yet during the period when I wanted a less sharp blade, so I could walk off ice on rubber mats without bending the edge, the 5000 grit stone did that job well too. Maybe it took an extra stroke or two to do the job, but that wasn't a big deal, and I liked the control.
Of course, it is possible that going to 1/2" ROH would make her happy too. And it might be marginally faster.
Can someone explain to me how a figure skating blade can be "too sticky"? AFAICT, no normal edge with a 7/16" ROH digs deep enough to slow down the glide much, and I don't ever want it to skid sideways, except on stops, where I tilt the edge to create the skid. And the advantages of a very sharp blade when the surface is rough are overwhelming.
Yet a lot of figure skaters make similar complaints about newly sharpened blades, from some skate techs. Is there a reason they want to skid sideways?
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So after the last skating session, and before my original post, the sharpener had another attempt at sharpening my blades. That's 4 sharpenings to date, and consistency is most definitely an issue! For each sharpening I requested 7/16ths, and provided my old blades so they could be copied.
Sharpening 1
I was able to stroke reasonably but when I tried any moves such as 3 turns I was skidding really badly. It was quite scary. I perservered for 2 hours but the problems remained.
Sharpening 2
Sharpener suggests trying 1/2, which I said I hadn't like previously, so he said between 7/16ths and 1/2. Tried that and, whilst not as smooth as original sharpener, I was able to skate without skidding.
Sharpening 3
Again asked for 7/16ths and this time I was sticking to the ice. Could barely move forward when trying to stroke, or do anything. Gave up after an hour, put my old skates on and was absolutely fine.
Sharpening 4
Sharpener again says try 1/2 (must be his preferred sharpening?) so after discussion we decide to try between 7/16ths and 1/2 again. This was the sharpening I finally got to try today. Again nowhere near as good as my original sharpener but definitely felt better. Initially stroking felt a tiny bit sticky but nothing like the previous sharpening so perservered and after about 5 circuits I was finally able to skate "normally".
I've checked the blades since today's session and can't find any burrs, however I do think they could be the problem as others who use that sharpener have said they usually need a session or two to get used to their blades after each sharpening. So, definitely not consistent and nowhere near as good as my original sharpener, but at least for now I have something usable.
What's interesting is that the "same" sharpening (7/16ths) caused skidding first time round and sticking to the ice the second. Ice condition was a bit softer for the first sharpening, when I was skidding, but both times I was fine when I swapped back to my old blades.
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Even when I had very bad skate techs sharpen my blades, doing things like making one edge so much longer that the skate, with no foot in it, would stand at angle on a table, I never had any blade "stick", in the sense of failing to glide forward, except to some extent on partially melted outdoor ice, which was basically slush, so the blade sunk into the slush. It's hard for me to imagine that happening on even reasonably hard ice.
If Christy means that her gliding foot can't glide forwards, has anyone else here ever had that situation happen, and knows what caused it?
What exactly do you mean by "sticky"?
Do you mean that something tends to prevent you from lifting the skate, or just that it can't glide forwards?
When you say forward stroking, are you using the basic skating technique where one foot pushes, and stands still relative to the ice (in that sense the pushing foot DOES stick), and the other, at approximately a right angle, or at least somewhat turned out from the other foot, glides, or are you talking about the fancy method of pushing alternately against the outside edge hard while gliding on one foot, or something else?
If the former, which foot "sticks" - the the pushing foot or the gliding foot?
It is hard for me to imagine any kind of edge that would cause the gliding foot to have trouble moving forwards - unless he made a really, really long foil edge, that dug really, rally deep into the ice - like maybe 1/4" - 1/2". But not even thosee speed skaters who work hard to create a really long foil edge (not that long, but some of them sharpen until they feel a long lip or burr to the side, then polish it and bend it to the bottom) find that - in fact, such blades are extremely fast, because the foil lets the pushing foot push harder. (Complicated by the fact that the first strokes, for a speed skater, are often running strides or leaps, and they then gradually bring in the glide ones they attain some speed.)
It might stick if he changed the blade shape so much that your toe pick is digging in, or the blade contains a new sharp corner that is digging in. That would represent such a degree of incompetence that even beginner hockey players would flee him, and there is no way anyone else would be happy with his edges.
(It is possible, by the way, that he is inconsistent because he is trying to respond to your complaints. That's what a good skate tech does.)
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Even when I had very bad skate techs sharpen my blades, doing things like making one edge so much longer that the skate, with no foot in it, would stand at angle on a table, I never had any blade "stick", in the sense of failing to glide forward, except to some extent on partially melted outdoor ice, which was basically slush, so the blade sunk into the slush. It's hard for me to imagine that happening on even reasonably hard ice.
If Christy means that her gliding foot can't glide forwards, has anyone else here ever had that situation happen, and knows what caused it?
What exactly do you mean by "sticky"?
Do you mean that something tends to prevent you from lifting the skate, or just that it can't glide forwards?
When you say forward stroking, are you using the basic skating technique where one foot pushes, and stands still relative to the ice (in that sense the pushing foot DOES stick), and the other, at approximately a right angle, or at least somewhat turned out from the other foot, glides, or are you talking about the fancy method of pushing alternately against the outside edge hard while gliding on one foot, or something else?
If the former, which foot "sticks" - the the pushing foot or the gliding foot?
It might stick if he changed the blade shape so much that your toe pick is digging in, or the blade contains a new sharp corner that is digging in. That would represent such a degree of incompetence that even beginner hockey players would flee him, and there is no way anyone else would be happy with his edges.
By sticky I mean that I couldn't glide forward. No issue with lifting the pushing foot off the ice. I tried stroking and also inside and outside edges on both feet and the blades just seemed to be stuck to the ice. It refused to glide. I'm sure there is a better description, but basically it felt like I was trying to skate through treacle and feeling a lot of resistance.
(It is possible, by the way, that he is inconsistent because he is trying to respond to your complaints. That's what a good skate tech does.)
When I said he was inconsistent I was referring to the fact that the first time I asked him to do a 7/16ths ROH I was skidding and the second time I was sticking, so very different results, and both times he confirmed he'd done a 7/16ths ROH. Have to say it's very confusing. I really don't like 1/2 but at the moment I'm thinking I'll just go with that next time and try to adapt. I'm hoping it's not forever!!
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When I said he was inconsistent I was referring to the fact that the first time I asked him to do a 7/16ths ROH I was skidding and the second time I was sticking, so very different results, and both times he confirmed he'd done a 7/16ths ROH. Have to say it's very confusing.
That is not confusing at all - as we have said, ROH is not the only thing affecting sharpness. And presumably you complained after the first time, so he altered the way he sharpened it. As he should have.
The main question is: What is stopping the glide?
1. Is your toepick touching the ice?
2. Is there a corner (a sudden change of direction along the blade), that you can feel, behind the toe pick, that digs into the ice?
3. Is some part of the blade sinking deep into the ice?
4. Is the bottom or side surface of the blade extremely rough, like sandpaper, or have any obvious projections sticking out?
5. Is the ice super-soft, i.e., slush, so that the entire blade sinks into the slush, or touches dirt or other non-slippery surface or substance?
I can't think of anything else that would stop the glide - perhaps someone else can? That simply makes no sense.
You said the blade isn't like that anymore - but can you remember? Or ask someone else with the same skate tech who has had the same problem to check.
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Christy, when your blade "sticks", is it always when you are skating on the inside edge, the outside edge, or on a flat (both inside and outside edges)? On some combo of the above? Any difference between left and right blades? How about any differences between front, center, and rear of the blades (left and right)? Or is behavior inconsistent?
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That is not confusing at all - as we have said, ROH is not the only thing affecting sharpness. And presumably you complained after the first time, so he altered the way he sharpened it. As he should have.
First time he sharpened the blades I was skidding, second time was OK, third time I was sticking, fourth time is OK. Each time I asked for the same ROH and he used the same machine, hence why I'm confused
The main question is: What is stopping the glide?
1. Is your toepick touching the ice?
2. Is there a corner (a sudden change of direction along the blade), that you can feel, behind the toe pick, that digs into the ice?
3. Is some part of the blade sinking deep into the ice?
4. Is the bottom or side surface of the blade extremely rough, like sandpaper, or have any obvious projections sticking out?
5. Is the ice super-soft, i.e., slush, so that the entire blade sinks into the slush, or touches dirt or other non-slippery surface or substance?
I can't think of anything else that would stop the glide - perhaps someone else can? That simply makes no sense.
You said the blade isn't like that anymore - but can you remember? Or ask someone else with the same skate tech who has had the same problem to check.
Toe pick definitely not touching the ice and it's not happening in a specific area of the rink.
The ice is not slushy, and when I put my old boots / blades (sharpened by original sharpener) I was able to skate normally so I can't blame the ice.
Looking at the blades I couldn't see anything obvious, but I didn't get a chance to check if the blade felt rough.
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Christy, when your blade "sticks", is it always when you are skating on the inside edge, the outside edge, or on a flat (both inside and outside edges)? On some combo of the above? Any difference between left and right blades? How about any differences between front, center, and rear of the blades (left and right)? Or is behavior inconsistent?
It happened on inside edges, outside edges and flat, both blades, and I'd say it felt like it was the center of the blade that was sticking.
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That just sounds like you've got burrs or gouges. You need to look at your blades very closely (esp when picking them up from sharpening).
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It happened on inside edges, outside edges and flat, both blades, and I'd say it felt like it was the center of the blade that was sticking.
That just sounds like you've got burrs or gouges. You need to look at your blades very closely (esp when picking them up from sharpening).
This is peculiar, Christy. I agree with MCsAngel2. This sounds like the problems you would get from burrs; yet, you said you checked and didn't find any. If the edges were sufficiently off-level, you would feel a difference between inside and outside edges: perhaps sticking on one, but OK or skidding on the other. But that's not the case. Very perplexing.
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This is peculiar, Christy. I agree with MCsAngel2. This sounds like the problems you would get from burrs; yet, you said you checked and didn't find any. If the edges were sufficiently off-level, you would feel a difference between inside and outside edges: perhaps sticking on one, but OK or skidding on the other. But that's not the case. Very perplexing.
To be clear, I can't find any burrs after the fourth sharpening, which seems to be OK, but I didn't get a chance to check for burrs after the third sharpening, which was the one that resulted in me sticking to the ice. I do think it's quite possible there were burrs after that third sharpening given the problems I was having. When I gave him the skates for the fourth attempt at sharpening I did ask if he "finished" the skates after sharpening because that's what my original sharpener always did, so maybe that prompted him to check more for burrs, etc. after the latest sharpening.
I did ask someone else who gets a different type of blade sharpened by that sharpener if they had problems, and they said they found several swipes of the blade on the plastic helped :o
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It's really hard for me to imagine an even slightly competent skate tech leaving a burr so large that it caused your blade to stick! "Even" a hockey player would notice that. Imagine a hockey player sprinting onto the ice. He puts down his blade, tries to rush the rest of his body forward, and immediately falls flat on his face. Not a good image for a hockey player! The hockey player would likely never go back to that skate tech again. Honestly, I don't think you should either.
>>That is not confusing at all - as we have said, ROH is not the only thing affecting sharpness. And presumably you
>>complained after the first time, so he altered the way he sharpened it. As he should have.
>First time he sharpened the blades I was skidding, second time was OK, third time I was sticking, fourth time is OK.
>Each time I asked for the same ROH and he used the same machine, hence why I'm confused
Look at it this way: ROH just determines the included angle between the hollow and the side of the blade. The included angle, for kitchen knives, pocket knives and razors is just the angle between the sides (which is a far smaller angle than the included angle for skates), which is not changed when you sharpen them. Yet they all can be very sharp (e.g., have a very abrupt change in direction at the edge), or very dull (rounded off). So, likewise, you can have the same ROH, sharpened on the same machine, but completely different sharpness.
The ROH and the machine do NOT (mostly) determine that type of sharpness - his sharpening technique determines that. Since (I assume) you complained, he may have altered his sharpening technique, to try to make you happy. But clearly didn't succeed in making you happy.
Perhaps he is just completely incompetent. That's not at all unusual. Most skate techs aren't trained by experts; what training they have is very fast; and there is a huge emphasis placed on sharpening as many blades/hour as possible, to make more money for the shop.
If he can't make you happy, find another skate tech who can.
Or become your own skate tech. Sure, you may make mistakes at first, and it might take you 5 minutes per blade the first time or two, maybe slightly more. But you won't take off as much metal, using hand tools, as he is doing. So your mistakes won't cost you as much as he is. Tools like the Pro-Filer, which includes a flat stone, costs $80 + shipping, less than the cost of even one pair of decent figure skating blades, plus you also save the money you are paying to the skate tech for his incompetent work. Depending on how often you skate, you will save a total of several hundred to several thousand dollars/year, plus the lost ice and lesson time while you deal with unusable blades - could be even more. For you, it sounds like that is an $80 well spent.
(Note: the "7/16 inch" ROH Pro-Filer kit is actually just a relabeled 3/8" kit, unless that has changed. In effect, you must choose 3/8" or 1/2".) You don't need a radius gauge to use the Pro-Filer - the ROH is determined by the radius of the (cylindrical) sharpening stones, which is fixed for a given kit. The Profiler consists of a cylindrical stone in a handle that has a gap in it that hugs the blades as you slide it up and down the blade. Each kit contains two such stones and handles, one with a coarse stone, and one with a fine stone, and a "side stone" which is the flat stone we have talked about.
Besides, if you keep skating on an incompetent's edges, you are likely to hurt yourself. My imaginary hockey player who falls when his blade sticks, has padding and a helmet to protect himself from that fall. You probably don't. If you fall flat on your face, you may require surgery.
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Or become your own skate tech. Sure, you may make mistakes at first, and it might take you 5 minutes per blade the first time or two, maybe slightly more. But you won't take off as much metal, using hand tools, as he is doing. So your mistakes won't cost you as much as he is. Tools like the Pro-Filer, which includes a flat stone, costs $80 + shipping, less than the cost of even one pair of decent figure skating blades, plus you also save the money you are paying to the skate tech for his incompetent work. Depending on how often you skate, you will save a total of several hundred to several thousand dollars/year, plus the lost ice and lesson time while you deal with unusable blades - could be even more. For you, it sounds like that is an $80 well spent.
(Note: the "7/16 inch" ROH Pro-Filer kit is actually just a relabeled 3/8" kit, unless that has changed. In effect, you must choose 3/8" or 1/2".) You don't need a radius gauge to use the Pro-Filer - the ROH is determined by the radius of the (cylindrical) sharpening stones, which is fixed for a given kit. The Profiler consists of a cylindrical stone in a handle that has a gap in it that hugs the blades as you slide it up and down the blade. Each kit contains two such stones and handles, one with a coarse stone, and one with a fine stone, and a "side stone" which is the flat stone we have talked about.
I believe you have the original Matrix, with the interchangeable runners, and use the Pro-Filer OK with them. Is that correct, Query? The OP presumably has a more recent Matrix, with the non-interchangeable runners. Is that correct, Christy?
Query, do you know whether the Pro-Filer works with the current Matrix? To work with the Paramounts, I had to modify the chassis (block holding the stone) of the Pro-Filer; because the width of the runner is too small for the Pro-Filer to seat properly: the chassis of the Pro-Filer hits against the aluminum body (holding the runner) of the Paramount before the stone contacts the edges. I have no first-hand experience with the Matrix, but I have seen it at a pro shop. Just upon visual inspection, I think the width of the runner of the Matrix is even less than the width of the runner of the Paramount. The Matrix also has an aluminum body thicker than the runner (though not as thick as that of the Paramount); so I suspect a similar problem could arise with the Matrix as with the Paramount.
The Pro-Filer can work well under the right scenarios. But it also is not a cure-all (in particular, it won't work on some blades). And it too has its own share of problems. Discussed in other threads; I don't want to go too far off-topic here. At some point, I even launched a thread dedicated to work-arounds. Just a word of caution to those who might be contemplating this option: get a good picture of the pluses/minuses you're getting into (it's not all pluses).
ETA (9/24/2020): See attached figure (click to enlarge) for clarification of what I mean by width and thickness. The width of the runner is the distance measured along the side of the runner from the interface (between the body and the runner) to the edge. The thickness of the body is the distance measured across the sides of the body. The thickness of the runner (not shown) is the distance measured across the sides of the runner (edge-to-edge). In the current Matrix, the thickness of the body is greater than the thickness of the runner, and the runner is set into the body; hence, there is a step in thickness at the interface. If the width of the runner is too small, the chassis of the Pro-Filer will hit into the body before the stone is properly seated against the hollow of the runner. That would take another figure to show; and would be best spun off into a separate thread if anyone is interested. Here I'm just urging caution, in case anyone is contemplating this option. This is the case with Paramount blades (using also a body+ runner construction, but different in execution details). I had to modify the chassis of the Pro-Filer.
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BTW, CHristy, what type of blades do you have? Do you know how much they cost?
On mine too, the runners were too thin for the unmodified Pro-Filer. In addition, Pro-Filer's maker (Edge Specialties) has been somewhat inconsistent in the size and centering of the gap. (Nonetheless, last I knew, you could tell Edge Specialties what gap size you wanted - so if you have precision equipment - a good calipers or micrometer - you can measure the width, increase it slightly (a few thousandths of an inch), and make it snug.
The extra thin runners is why I lined each side of the gap of the holder with tape, to get a snugger fit. (You can instead put tape on each side of the blade where it would touch.) The Pro-Filer set comes with masking tape, but if I remember right, but it was too thick for my blades and tools, so I used Scotch plastic tape.
I also take a few swipes in one direction, take the blades out of the gap, and turn either the skates or the pro-filer around 180 degrees, and take some more, and repeat. It evens out anything, if there is a slight asymmetry (imperfect gap centering), or if something about my technique is asymmetric.
It took me some practice to get the technique right. But think about what she is doing now. When she changed to a shallower ROH, the skate tech doubtless took a fair amount of steel away. A few more experiments like that, and she may as well buy new blades.
AFAIK, none of the Matrix blades have the type of thickness modulation that makes sharpening with Pro-Filers more difficult.
BTW, don't order the hockey kit - order the figure skating kit. Hockey blades are much thinner than figure blades.
One thing the Pro-FIler is not useful for - changing ROH. You would mostly wear down the coarse stone (I did that once - I told you I made initial mistakes!), and spend a lot of time doing it. So she would need to pick an ROH, and get the commercial tech to grind it.
I think it would be worth it for her to try. Because she is letting the dubious skate tech destroy her blades, which likely cost more than a Pro-FIler set, and is losing ice and lesson time, so she is probably spending much more money using him. I find it hard to imagine a tech so bad that her blades would stick. Sure - she could grind off the burrs, if that is the only problem - but anyone that bad is almost certainly messing up other things too. Rather than her trying to teach the tech how to sharpen blades right, on a machine that takes off a lot of metal if you do it wrong, she should just do it herself, on a tool that takes off less. It would be hard to do worse than he has done.
BTW, Christy, if you want a cheap and dirty way to try sharpening yourself, and the skate tech has gone all the way to 1/2" ROH, you could use the Berghman skate sharpeners:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=berghman+skate+sharpener&_sacat=0&_sop=15
They are cheaper - on the order of $5 to $10, maybe $15 if you want a slightly more recent one. The stones that come with them aren't great - they are old and crumbly, and too coarse grained to get extremely sharp blades, though you might find them sharp enough. In every other respect, these old tools were actually better than Pro-FIlers. They had adjustable gap size, so would fit your blades (though I would still use tape so as not to scratch the blades); they let you move the stone right up to the edge of the tool, which gives you better control, especially near the toe pick (but tape the toe pick so you don't accidentally trim it); and it only takes a few seconds to replace the stones. They used to be considered serious professional grade sharpening tools - but then people started making powered sharpening machines that let skate techs sharpen more blades/hour, so Berghman went out of business. If you are reasonably happy with the results, but want them even sharper, replace the stones (abrasive cylinders) with ones of finer grain, made with modern materials - you could even use the replacement stones that Edge Specialties sells for use with Pro-FIlers, though there are cheaper sources.
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BTW, CHristy, what type of blades do you have? Do you know how much they cost?
On mine too, the runners were too thin for the unmodified Pro-Filer. In addition, Pro-Filer's maker (Edge Specialties) has been somewhat inconsistent in the size and centering of the gap. (Nonetheless, last I knew, you could tell Edge Specialties what gap size you wanted - so if you have precision equipment - a good calipers or micrometer - you can measure the width, increase it slightly (a few thousandths of an inch), and make it snug.
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AFAIK, none of the Matrix blades have the type of thickness modulation that makes sharpening with Pro-Filers more difficult.
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<<Emphasis added.>> But just to clarify: You do not have first-hand experience using the Pro-Filer on the current generation of Matrix. Is that correct?
ETA: I've added a figure to my previous post to clarify what I mean by width and thickness.
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Some interesting information that I really need to study and understand. At first glance it looks like I need to investigate the Berghman sharpener as it is more flexible to different blade sizes and widths. I would be very nervous, but I suppose I could try to buy some secondhand blades that I could learn with.
My blades are Matrix Elite, around $500. I'd expect them to last at least 12-15 sharpenings with around 50 hours between sharpenings., but so far we're on 4 sharpenings and 40 hours in total so not great :'(
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tstop4me, you are right. I have not used the current generation Matrix. From what I can tell they look pretty similar, except for using screws and glue instead of bolts, but I didn't take measurements. And I've only tried the Berghman sharpener on other types of blade, because I don't use 1/2" ROH. Specifically, a lot of ice rinks throw away their old rental skates, and I picked up some of those to practice on. Though thrift stores sometimes have them too.
Christy, if your skate tech was good, you should expect a lifetime of closer to 30 sharpening - more if you do it yourself with hand tools - but maybe not with all the trial sharpenings he has been doing, including changing the ROH, and if my suspicians are right. Such blades are expensive enough that every sharpening is costing you a lot off that lifetime.
I've wondered why more coaches don't take up sharpening, as an extra source of income. They start out knowing more about figure skating blades than most of the hockey players who are usually taken on as skate tech trainees. Most of the ones I've seen that do came from Russia or Eastern Europe.
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tstop4me, you are right. I have not used the current generation Matrix. From what I can tell they look pretty similar, except for using screws and glue instead of bolts, but I didn't take measurements. And I've only tried the Berghman sharpener on other types of blade, because I don't use 1/2" ROH. Specifically, a lot of ice rinks throw away their old rental skates, and I picked up some of those to practice on. Though thrift stores sometimes have them too.
Christy, if your skate tech was good, you should expect a lifetime of closer to 30 sharpening - more if you do it yourself with hand tools - but maybe not with all the trial sharpenings he has been doing, including changing the ROH, and if my suspicians are right. Such blades are expensive enough that every sharpening is costing you a lot off that lifetime.
I've wondered why more coaches don't take up sharpening, as an extra source of income. They start out knowing more about figure skating blades than most of the hockey players who are usually taken on as skate tech trainees. Most of the ones I've seen that do came from Russia or Eastern Europe.
The rocker on the previous pair of Matrix blades started to flatten out after about 15 sharpenings, so I was basing it on that. The blades still had a fair few sharpenings but it then took a few sessions to get used to a new pair with a new rocker.
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Well a quick update.
After about 6 hours of skating on the fourth sharpening by the temporary sharpener I started to slip / slide / skid every attempt at a 3 turn :'( and my blades felt really dull. With my proper sharpener my blades lasted at least 60 hours) so I decided that I had no choice but to try something different. There is another local sharpener that isn't as highly rated, but I figured that they really couldn't be any worse so gave them a try. Not sure how long the sharpening will last, and it's not as good as my proper sharpener but the good news is no sticking, no slipping, and no skidding!
I am fairly sure that the fundamental problem was that the bad sharpener wasn't finishing the blades properly, and they did admit that they didn't finish, but instead of understanding that they kept changing the sharpness and ROH. So frustrating but hopefully I have a temporary solution.
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Well, that's progress at least.
Let's hope that you can find a permanent solution soon.
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Well, that's progress at least.
Let's hope that you can find a permanent solution soon.
Yeah, Christy, let's hope you find a permanent solution, while you still have a runner left. Too bad you're going through all this frustration, when you just want to skate.
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As I mentioned, one of the most important characteristics of a reasonably competent skate tech is that his results are consistent. Clearly the one you were using isn't.
Did you order the Berghman sharpening tool? If you spend $5-$10 on it, it might be worth the hassle. Though it might turn out that new style Matrix blades don't have high enough runners to be used with that tool (you COULD file the tool back, but it sounds like you are too hesitant to do that sort of mod), it's still a pretty small risk compared to the costs of machine sharpening, if you include both the cost of sharpening, and of reduced blade lifetime, especially if you have to drive to use the new sharpener, in which case you should include the costs of running a vehicle.
BTW, 15 sharpening lifetime isn't really enough. That wouldn't flatten your rocker unless:
1. Your tech failed to try to maintain the proper rocker profile. In theory, they should have recorded the original profile (by tracing or photocopying it), and tried to make sure that profile was maintained.
2. They were flattening your rocker in order that you wouldn't unintentionally hit your toe pick. Done "right" (by powered sharpening machine standards, for figure blades - though of course there are no real "standards" per se), 15 sharpenings should remove about 15*.003=.045 inches - less than 1/20" - probably not enough to cause that problem, even though, in my limited experience, Ultima blades allow less room then MK and Wilson blades, before the toe pick starts to interfere too much. Even if it did, a really good tech would trim the toe pick back a little instead of altering the rocker profile. That doesn't quite produce exactly the original blade shape - because freestyle toe picks are tilted forwards, which means trimming would shift the point at which your toepick touches the ice slightly back - but it would work pretty well.
I've wondered if there shouldn't be better solutions for the "masses". Last I checked (a few years pre-covid19), USFSA had about 100,000 members, though that includes the LTS people. I'm surprised that's isn't enough for people to create s simple jigs to do this in a fairly idiot proof manner. Tools like the Berghman or Pro-Filer aren't idiot proof - which I suppose is part of the fun, like any skill.
As I mentioned, a tech doesn't have to finish under all conditions. In particular, if he uses a relatively large grit sharpening wheel (which, BTW, probably won't create as sharp an edge), it turns out, based on a test with a microscope I did with the help of an expert tech, that there is essentially no sharpening burr - though the edge is pretty rough. One COULD skate on it - though that particular tech chooses to finish even under those conditions.
Unfortunately, your new tech doesn't have a fresh blade whose rocker profile he can record. He may not know what shape that particular blade "should" take. If you want a less flat rocker, or to re-emphasize what I was taught to call the "sweet spot" where the rocker curvature changes up front, you will have to tell him that. It's a shame YOU didn't record the original profile, that you could give him - assuming you didn't.
Oh well. It is an adventure.
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Actually I usually do trace the profile of my blades after each sharpening, but I didn't do it with this pair of blades. Not sure why I didn't, but I do have the profile of my old Elites that my proper sharpener sharpened.
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Actually I usually do trace the profile of my blades after each sharpening, but I didn't do it with this pair of blades. Not sure why I didn't, but I do have the profile of my old Elites that my proper sharpener sharpened.
Excellent! Then you can tell whether this tech has changed the rocker. And if he has, and you care, maybe give him the old profile to approximately match.
The only question about your old profiles is whether they were Matrix too. When I spoke to someone at Jackson's factory, that person said they weren't sure whether (old model) Matrix and non-Matrix blades of the same model designation had the same shape.
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Excellent! Then you can tell whether this tech has changed the rocker. And if he has, and you care, maybe give him the old profile to approximately match.
The only question about your old profiles is whether they were Matrix too. When I spoke to someone at Jackson's factory, that person said they weren't sure whether (old model) Matrix and non-Matrix blades of the same model designation had the same shape.
They are the same blades, i.e. Matrix Elite, and comparing the profile of the current blades with that of my old pair at the fifth sharpening I'd say it's fairly close. Definitely not exactly the same, but not significantly different. I've only met the current sharpener once but sadly I have to say that I know he wouldn't be interested in trying to reprofile the blades. He operates a bit of production line and the store's main focus is hockey :'(
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They are the same blades, i.e. Matrix Elite, and comparing the profile of the current blades with that of my old pair at the fifth sharpening I'd say it's fairly close. Definitely not exactly the same, but not significantly different. I've only met the current sharpener once but sadly I have to say that I know he wouldn't be interested in trying to reprofile the blades. He operates a bit of production line and the store's main focus is hockey :'(
<<Emphasis added.>> That's probably for the best. If you can't trust him to do a decent sharpening, why would you trust him to reprofile your blades (a much more difficult operation)?
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I've only met the current sharpener once
Eeks. I hate pro shops like that. I think of sharpening as a personalized service, that requires personal interaction to satisfy the particular skater's needs. \\
So - given the absence of a good skate tech in your area, if you were to learn how to do sharpen skates "right", maybe you could set up a little side business sharpening skates. :) In other threads, Bill said he has sharpened for other people.
Of course, most rinks sell a concession to just one pro shop, so soliciting business among rink customers might be a no no. ::>)
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Eeks. I hate pro shops like that. I think of sharpening as a personalized service, that requires personal interaction to satisfy the particular skater's needs. \\
So - given the absence of a good skate tech in your area, if you were to learn how to do sharpen skates "right", maybe you could set up a little side business sharpening skates. :) In other threads, Bill said he has sharpened for other people.
Of course, most rinks sell a concession to just one pro shop, so soliciting business among rink customers might be a no no. ::>)
Not ideal, but the bad sharpener was supposed to be offering a personalized service, and that was a total disaster, so if the pro shop guy can do something reasonable I can overlook his location!