skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: Neverdull44 on August 31, 2014, 08:54:37 PM
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Where do I go in blades from here?
I have MK Professionals, 20 year old blades. They are totally ground. Nothing left. At this point, i feel like my skating is suffering because my blades are so bad. Sometimes, after this last sharpening, it feels like I am skating on a different material sometimes. I am watching where my toe pick is, and almost bit it on forward power stroking. My blades were originally a 7' rocker. Today, they are super flat, but I don't have a way to measure them. The skate shop says that they don't have a rocker measurer. I am going to ask again, because a minor league hockey team skates there.
Because they are so flat, I am leaning towards going up to 8' rocker. I think going back to a 7' rocker is going to feel weird. Anyone measured worn out blades? But, I worry that, "Will I be able to skate on an 8?" "They" say that an 8' is for advanced skaters. I don't do doubles. I am 45 years young. I am working on adding loops after every jump, and am on my axel journey. Some days, I have a 6 revolution camel, but most days it is 3. I am working on my flying camel (3 revolutions). My sit spins are strong, and I like to pull back on the blade. I have a pretty good backspin, even the kids complement me on it.
I read the kudos on parabolic blades, and how they center your balance. That sounds great because loops in footwork and brackets on a straight line are not the most fun. But, I've only skated on parallel blades. Anyone skate switch to parabolic, what was the learning curve? And, I'm afraid to get an expensive blade. I think our pro shop would butcher it. Are parabolics easier to butcher?
My husband is an engineer and rebuilds cars. He can do anything mechanical. Should I have him spend $5,000 on a sharpening system? Anyone ever learned how to do blades from scratch? Seems extreme, but . . . the whole family skates. I had a GREAT, independent skate sharpener, but he moved away. :-(
What blade do you skate in? Your level?
I wish blades were like golf clubs, where you could try them. Don't want to make a several hundred dollar mistake.
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Pictures of my old blades.
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Well you are a better skater than me ;)
I had MK Pro blades (7" rocker) which had been used for approx. 8 months / 3-4 times per week, and I switched to Matrix Legacy blades (8" rocker) because I wanted to extend the time between sharpenings. IIRC my learning curve was around 5 hours and I was totally comfortable by 10 hours.
The only issue I have is that even if I wanted to get the blades sharpened locally I couldn't because not all sharpeners have the correct equipment to sharpen the fatter blade.
p.s. yes, train him up, and move up here ;D
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I had the same blades as you! 25 y.o. Profs ground completely flat, rocker of infinity. I went with a synchro blade, and didn't have an 8' option (was unfamiliar with Ultima and wanted to stick with trusty MK/Wilson).
Now, after being back on the ice one year, I would absolutely consider an 8' rocker. And given the raves my old fitter was giving to Ultima, I wouldn't hesitate to buy their blades, except that I'm not sure my sharpener can handle the matrix format. But they've standard models too.
Given how flat your blades are, I think you're in a risk-free situation. ANY new blade is going to feel curvy AND better on the spin rocker (I had my drag pick ground down a smidge while I was waiting for my new blades to arrive.....don't do it, it made things worse). You're going to have to re-find the sweet spot anyway, since right now, you pretty much have none. Ultima makes absolute beginner blades in an 8' rocker- so I think there's no hard and fast rule about 8' being for advanced skaters only. Rather, it's what you're used too/your preference. There's no way to determine your preference other than taking the plunge and trying things out. I agree that I wish we could try before webuy......
I don't know that I'd bother with parabolics. Davincisop has them and I know likes them, so if finances allowed, they might be fun to try, but I doubt they're magic, and might be difficult to sharpen. Different sharpeners seem to have different opinions on that. But if your husband is going to get into that game, there isn't a flat surface for him to line up, so for a beginner sharpener it might be pretty difficult.
As for sharpening at home, I don't see why not, if you have space for the rig and can afford the $5k. How many are you that skate? It's what, $20 a pop for sharpening + gas? (that's what I pay in the US). I know a woman in the UK who got a rig and is doing it. Once you learn hoe to do it, you can sharpen for others, too the rig might actually pay for itself in a reasonable period of time. There's no reason why you can't learn to do it as well as DH.
Good luck with the choice! And have fun with it!
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You can get sharpeners for less than $5k. There's one on ebay right now for $1400. And I've seen a single head model for $600. I have an acquaintance who sharpens professionally who got a rig for $3000.
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I wouldn't just have someone start sharpening Side-Honed blades (Phantom, Gold Seal and all its clones, Gold Star), because the chances of them getting the edges even will be comically low. Without a proper sharpening, your skating can suffer.
As for blade choices...
Just pick one you like.
If your blades are that old, then the profile they had even when they were new are likely not even the same as what the current MK Professionals (which feel more like Gold Stars with lower stanchions these days) have, so there will be an adjustment period no matter what you buy.
The rocker radius is unimportant compared to the actual profile of the rocker (where and how it's curved).
The diagram is a display of the rocker profiles of each blade type, assuming a 10" Blade size: http://paramountskates.com/ourblades.php
You have to find the type of blade you feel most comfortable on, and it's hard to make a really good suggestion (outside of "I or most people I know like these") for the same reasons you're asking for recommendations... You can't try them on like Shoes at the mall :-(
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Honestly, with a flattened spin rocker, ANY blade is going to feel very very different from what you are used to... 7ft vs 8ft radius really doesn't make that much of a difference, because the primary difference you will be feeling right away is due to the smaller radius of the spin rocker, not usually the rest of the blade.
I am with Nate - just pick something and it will be just fine... eventually. There probably will be some significant adjustment since you are going from used up blades to brand new, but you're going to experience that adjustment regardless of what new blade you choose. Some people can adapt quickly, others make take longer, and it's hard to know how you will manage until you've been through it a few times.
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Thanks Nate, for that diagram!
I also had a look-see through their site, and they actually sell a sharpener. Dunno what shipping would be on it, but at $3200 (sharpener plus original holder....they do have a slightly less expensive one), it's less than the 5K you were thinking....
http://paramountskates.com/Sharpening.php
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Are those rusty blades really "Neverdull"? :)
Pro-Filer kits ($95, get the kit for the right ROH) or Berghman ($5-20 used - 1/2" ROH only) hand tools, plus a flat stone to straighten and/or dull the burr, take 5 - 10 minutes to sharpen well, if you don't let it go too flat. That includes time to check for even edges, and, once in a while, your rocker profile. With parabolics or other width shaping, you need to check that you have removed metal uniformly enough to maintain the width profile at various points too - a little more time, and money for measuring tools. (I can't say whether you would notice parabolic width shaping.)
MK/Wilson blades sometimes need reshaping, and you may want to change the sweet spot in any event, so let a good pro do the first sharpening, because big changes are slow on hand tools, and wear out the stone. A very good pro for parabolic otherwise width shaped blades.
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Yes! "Neverdull's" (my) blades are a little rusty. LOL.
I have thought & thought about this for the past week. New blades on old boots are not going to align right. My current boots & blades are 2.14 pounds, a piece. I'm 45 years young, but think less weight could be better on my joints in the long run. Those Edeas, I've heard rave reviews about. So, I am going to a pro-shop in Coral Springs (about 100 miles away) to see a pair of Edeas. If I get them and don't like them, then I'll be back to my Harlicks. My Harlicks are just wonderful skates. I've used them for 2 years and they are now at the 'super comfortable' level. I think I'm leaning towards a Pattern 99 blade. Coach said I'll do fine in them, once I learn the toe pick.
And, I'm going to look at putting a dance or synchro blade on my Harlicks. Our rink has a dance class on Saturday morning, and I want to take it again. But, this time, I'm MAKING my husband do it (he hockey skates).
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I went to lighter boots.
If I could have the weight back, I'd take it in a New York second.
I I can find some quarter pound weights to strap to my ankles/front of boot ankle (like where the buzzers strap on), I'm jumping on them, at least temporarily.
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Why?
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Messed up my timing for jumps, especially axel and doubles.
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New blades on old boots are not going to align right.
I don't understand this. Your skates sound like they're still in good shape (no?). If so, there's absolutely no reason you can't have the holes plugged and the new blades put on there. It's easier to adjust to new blades without having to break in new boots at the same time.
But have fun trying on the Edea's....you may just find the new love of your life!
And Oh how I WISH I could force my husband to take skating lessons. I really want to dance with him, but he's just so not into it. Plus he's on Dad duty while I'm at the rink...our 4 and 6 yo can not self-entertain non-disruptively...... Someday....someday.....
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Maybe she's talking about the indentations the blades make in the boot from weight/impact.
That's nothing to worry about. The new blades will make their own after a while. The worse you'd have to do is tighten a few screws after they settle in.
If they are super deep indentations that cause the new blade to be severely lopsided when mounted, then that may be a problem.
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(The forum rejected my first attempts to post this because my original image was too large, then wouldn't let me retry - odd.
So I'll reword it, and put the image on a web page.)
>New blades on old boots are not going to align right.
I'm with Loops on this. Plugging holes isn't hard. An easy but slow way is to fill them with Shoe Goo. If you are unwilling to wait 3 days for the shoe goo to set, use a hot air drier to speed it up.
All the cheap power sharpening tools I've seen have major limits. They are unable to create even edges on even slightly warped blades, and/or they can't handle variations in blade thickness, such as are in parabolic blades. But I haven't seen them all - if you find one that works well, I'd love to know about it.
As I and others have pointed out before, there are much cheaper hand tools that can do the job. It takes more time - typically 5 - 10 minutes if they just need a little sharpening, and you have to take measurements to verify you've done everything right, which means it would take a little longer to reproduce those parabolic thickness variations. That's substantially slower than good power tools, but it is fast enough for one skater. In fact, you may have been spending more time driving to a separate pro shop.
The clear weakness of hand sharpening is that they are orders of magnitude slower than good power tools to make major changes - e.g., the original shape defects that often show up on MK and Wilson blades, profile changes that have accumulated over time due to inexpert sharpening, other major profile changes such as altering the sweet spot, or altering the ROH. So, for these things, it is easier to let an expert pro shop do the first sharpening, and help you get the sweet spot right.
Rainbo (and at request, possibly other mail-order/on-line retailers) can do an initial sharpening for you before they ship, which could correct the big MK/Wilson blade shape issues. But the sweet spot is harder, because it depends on your personal anatomy, and you may want to experiment with exactly where it is placed.
To print rocker templates to compare against your blades, see this thread (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=6151.0).
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I understand where you're coming from, and i dont mean this to be dismissive or disreapectful of obviously well-intentioned advice; but most people asking about this on a forum should not be using hand tools to sharpen blades when a pro will sharpen for a cheap price. It's not like you have to sharpen often.
Also some blade types are too hard for an inexperience pro to sharpen properly, which makes them almost impossible for someone asking about this on a forum to get right without wasting ridiculous amount of metal correcting mistakes. An incorrect sharpening can still be skate able even if the performance of the blades aren't as good, so once someone makes a mistake they may not notice until they take their blades until a pro, good intentioned advice becomes destructive then.
Sweet spot can be fixed by buying a better blade for your anatomy and skating style, not trying to make another blade into something it's not. There are blades that have it further forwards or back, take your pick. That's what I did. Problem fixed, instantly, with none of that work. In 2 years or so when I upgrade, I'll know what to buy.
I don't understand why anyone would want a gold seal and then risk trashing it with all of these customizations when they can buy a pattern or phantom and just plop them on the boots and go skate, jump, and spin because those blades work best for them.
If you're afraid to lose money, buy from a manufacturer like Riedell or Ultima who has a return guarantee.
The number of people who need that kind of work is miniscule.
I don't think advocating hand sharpening is necessarily good. Take your blades to a pro and get them sharpened.
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I don't think advocating hand sharpening is necessarily good. Take your blades to a pro and get them sharpened.
It's not necessarily good, nor is it necessarily bad. It's a choice.
I ran some metal removal experiments a while back with the Pro-Filer skate sharpener. It removes metal very slowly. Being curious, I measured how much metal is removed from the hollow and from the edges in a 2-hour marathon. After this extended sharpening session, I measured 0.004" removed from the hollow- which is about the thickness of a human hair. Routine sharpening to freshen the edges removes about 1/4 of that.
At the same time I ran my experiment, Wm Letendre in Boston measured how much was removed by a professional sharpening done by a respected shop. He measured 0.005" metal removed in the few minutes required to sharpen his blades. With a heavy hand, less experienced operators can easily remove much more and ruin a blade. That happened to me in the 70s when the first sharpening of new blades removed ALL the rocker. I know that I'm not alone with such horror stories.
I can see your point if you live in a large metro area close to a respected sharpener. If that were the case, I wouldn't waste my time sharpening my own blades. However I live 75 miles from a good sharpener in Columbus, OH, and unfortunately his hours coincide with my own working hours. It's next to impossible for me to see him.
I'd sum up the advantages and disadvantages of hand sharpening as:
Advantages:
No need to travel to find a sharpener with a good reputation.
Slow metal removal rate means very little rocker change over time - won't substantially change the rocker even after years of skating/sharpening.
Once the sharpening kit is purchased, no further costs are involved.
Disadvantages:
Takes time to do. I allow a bit under an hour to tape blades, sharpen, and clean up.
Messy if you use oil. Water will be less messy. I use oil and wear latex gloves to minimize the effect on skin.
Can't do parabolics. May have trouble with other unusual configurations too.
It's best suited for the mechanically inclined and requires patience. (I'm a trained engineer and avid DIYer, so I find it a relaxing task)
I just wanted to add my own viewpoint driven by my own experiences. To me, it's just about the only option available. Our university rink is run by college students, with only current students serving as coaches (by university decree). That also includes counter help, and skate sharpeners too - they're all college students with unknown experience. I've heard some very loud yelling in the lobby by people holding freshly "sharpened" skates, and the regulars all avoid their service.
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I drive 60 miles to get my skates sharpened.
Down south, I used to drive over 3 hours to get them sharpened, and if I had some time off the ice, I'd just ship them overnight to him and he'd ship them back at no charge.
Always seek out the best pros in your area, and yes, I do know it can be a bit of a downer in some areas where there aren't many Pros closeby. I've been in that position and totally empathize.
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I'm mainly worried about the blade impression on the bottom of the soles. A very respected coach who is also a national judge and has many miles under her belt, told me that putting new blades on older boots doesn't work out that good because they don't always sit perpendicular.
My fear is that I buy 10.25 Patterns, and then they don't fit on my old boots. So, then I'm back at buying new boots. While I love, love, love my Harlicks, I am interested in a lighter boot for my joints. Then, what if the 10.25 blade isn't good on the Edeas. Now, I'll have to buy new boots and blades!
I am going on an Edea fitter on Friday. Good: Lots of people love them. Lighter weight might be better on my joints. And, it might make it easier to bring my legs together in jumps. Bad: One of the skaters at my rink, tried and hated them. And, she knows a person who broke her ankle in them. I like ankle support. I'm not sure if as an older skater, I can learn to skate in new boots.
I'm also going to call MK (or try) tomorrow. I wonder if they changed the cast for the plate 20 years ago. If I order another 10.25 MK's, will they fit like the ones I have that are 20 years old? If I go up to the MK Phantom, would it sit just like the Pros? So many questions.
My Harlicks are strong boots, and comfy. I can't say a bad thing about them, but they are heavy. There is a crease on the outside of the boot, but it's not broken down enough for the level that I skate at. The coaching pro looked at them and said she'd switch me if I was doing a double axel.
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Have you considered lightweight Harlicks? I'm a Harlick girl and generally always have been. I had the same problem as you - my Harlicks were so heavy! Now, granted mine were too big, as well, but I've always found them to be weighty. I just got my new skates a week or so ago. I'm in High Testers with modifications.
I love them! I got the lightweight uppers and the carbon graphite sole. Even with the blade on, they weigh so much less than just my old boots! I feel like on my jumps (especially axel) I don't have something weighing me down as I kick through. They are super comfy and I was doing all of my jumps within a couple of days.
Just something to consider. It's only $50 on a stock boot to add the lightweight options.
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I hope the Edeas make you happy!
Nate: I understand where you are coming from too. There is a significant learning curve to sharpening skates. OTOH, its not black magic. If you are willing to work at it and to take the appropriate measurements, you can do it better than most pro shops. If you aren't willing to take that care, yes, you will probably mess it up. Especially with Parabolic, Tapered, or otherwise side honed blades.
And yes, it is neither uncommon nor surprising that some people drive for many hours to find a good sharpener. Or ship blades and/or skates round the world to their favored sharpener.
But the O.P. said:
I'm afraid to get an expensive blade. I think our pro shop would butcher it. Are parabolics easier to butcher?
My husband is an engineer and rebuilds cars. He can do anything mechanical...
If the O.P. truly wants parabolics, and doesn't trust her pro shop, but does trust her husband, it is an option. Someone with enough tool knowledge to rebuild (she didn't just say repair) cars can probably figure out exactly what needs to be done. He probably has a lot of metal shop experience, and certainly knows all about technical measurements.
Not that I personally would choose parabolics - it would add too much extra time into sharpening right, and if I did use an inexpert sharpener, he/she would probably make a wavy mess of the edges. I don't even get what benefit parabolics are supposed to give, and why. As near as I can figure out, it means that when you are on a deep edge, a very slightly longer length of the blade touches the ice, as though you had a very slightly longer rocker radius. Is that good? If you are on a deep edge, you probably WANT to turn, so why isn't that bad? And with a typical thickness modulation on the order of .001 - .002", it seems like it should be a small effect.
It would be great if she could find a blade that already had the shape she wanted, including the sweet spot. But how can she determine that without buying a lot of blades, which gets expensive? Do you know of any good rules of thumb for that? You can instead mount your blade a little forward or back to shift the sweet spot a little - but that also shifts the toe pick and tail positions. The most expert sharpening pros I know, including the official figure skate sharpener at the Sochi Olympics, do reshape sweet spots to match the skater's desires.
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I'm mainly worried about the blade impression on the bottom of the soles. A very respected coach who is also a national judge and has many miles under her belt, told me that putting new blades on older boots doesn't work out that good because they don't always sit perpendicular.
I like to tinker, so here are a couple of options for dealing with the old mounting plate impression.
1) Sand down the high spots with ordinary sandpaper. If your husband has a belt sander, that will make short work of it. I'm sure that the amount of material to remove is small, and you won't remove it from the center area where the blade has already been mounted. Check the fit of the mating surfaces occasionally as material is removed.
2) You might also consider using RTV silicone sealant to act as a "liquid shim" that will harden considerably when it cures. If it's applied in a thin space, it won't compress much especially considering the large area of the mounting plate. The only issue there is that it's a great glue too, so repositioning the blades afterwards will be troublesome until the bond is broken. That might be overcome using a thin layer of petroleum jelly on the blade itself, and let the RTV material bond to only the boot. The lubricant will act as a release agent for the blade itself for adjustments later. Don't tighten the mounting screws much at all until the RTV silicone is cured and is stiff so that the blade isn't pressed into the cavity in a canted position.
FWIW, I use the RTV sealant when mounting new blades to fill the inevitable little gaps between the boot and blades. As a plus, it's nicely waterproof.
Those are a couple of ideas, and I'm sure there are other fixes too.
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I'm mainly worried about the blade impression on the bottom of the soles. A very respected coach who is also a national judge and has many miles under her belt, told me that putting new blades on older boots doesn't work out that good because they don't always sit perpendicular.
I'm sure this coach is speaking from some experience. But check with your fitter to see what they say. I've never heard of this problem before, and as a kid I used to swap blades on boots all the time (when they moved from being the freestyle boot to the patch boot for example).
Your sizing concerns are legitimate!!!! My old ca 1988 Riedells took a 10.25"blade. EVERY boot I tried on this past October/November (Jackson/Edea/Risport) took a 10"blade. WHen I got those boots, I also got patch blades, with the idea that they'd eventually be mounted on them. Those boots don't really fit, so that won't be happening.When I do eventually mount my patch blades on whatever boot I can acquire for them, they will hang off the back a microsmidge. Since I can't replace the blades (+/- brand new silver tests) I'm going to fly with it.
A thought: can you find a used pair of patterns? It's true that the rocker will be somewhat worn down, BUT it would let you transition to the new blade, see if you like it without too much loss, and perhaps get yourself to a place where you're upgrading boots and blades at the same time, thus avoiding the sizing issue. If you can find a GOOD sharpener, they might even be able to recreate the profile for you. I actually know of one who can, he's in the DC area though, but often works by mail.
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If the blades don't sit perpendicular, you can also shim quite easily using tape. Add strips of tape to the mounting plates in appropriate places, until the mounting plates lay everywhere flat against the boot without needing to be pressed. Tape of the same color as the boot looks better - e.g., white tape with black boots looks weird, unless you color it black.
First aid tape - specifically "coach tape" works very well. Duct tape does not - as it wears, duct tape changes thickness.
You would have the same issue of not sitting exactly perpendicular, and needing shims, with new boots. There is usually a little mismatch, partly because people offset by different amounts, partly because boot bottom shapes differ a little, so the exact planes that you need to match differs to.
I believe there is no real reason to get different length blades with different boots. The blades should still match your anatomy, i.e., the sweet spot, toe pick and end of the tail should be in about the same spots relative to points on your feet if you want them to feel about the same. The boot outsole length is irrelevant to that, as it has no effect on your motions. (But I admit that isn't the conventional wisdom.)
But you keep coming up with reasons to get new boots to go with you new blades, so I guess that is what you really want. If that makes you happy, happiness is always good. :WS:
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Some boots are made differently. The soles are shorter. Edea is one of those brands. A 10.25 blade fits end to end on my Klings, but hands off of Edeas.
Simmons for that reason can be bad once the blades settle. The leather will compress but the other side will need the materials removed eventually (90% of cases).
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When they made my Harlicks, my foot had grown a size due to two pregnancies. So, to keep me from buying new blades, Harlick was able to angle my heel in by a hair. This allowed for 'short' blades then what normally would have been there. If I get Edeas, I'm betting they will take a longer blade. If I hate my Edea's, the "new" blade will not retrofit back onto my shortened Harlicks.
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When they made my Harlicks, my foot had grown a size due to two pregnancies. So, to keep me from buying new blades, Harlick was able to angle my heel in by a hair. This allowed for 'short' blades then what normally would have been there. If I get Edeas, I'm betting they will take a longer blade. If I hate my Edea's, the "new" blade will not retrofit back onto my shortened Harlicks.
Oh goodness. What a conundrum. You are almost gauranteed blade sizing issues in this case. You might get lucky though and given what Nate said about the Edeas having a shorter sole be able to keep the same blade size. fwiw- my feet haven't grown- those Riedells I mentioned earlier never really fit right, and this go-around on my Risports I needed a 1/4" smaller blade. So if your feet are bigger now, but the edeas take a shorter blade than harlicks normally do, you just might be in luck. I think though, if I were in your situation, I'd definitely at least consider used blades, if you can find them. How many more years are you going to get out of your Harlicks? Assuming you're not going to let your new blades get to the state of your profs, how many years do you think you'll get out if them?
All will become clear when you get to the fitter. But, if you're feeling curious and have an idea what Edea size you'd need (I'm a size 9 US/40 European, and I'd have taken a 265), then this might help you ballpark. You won't know for sure until your foot is in the skate though.
http://www.edeaskates.com/en/ice-skates/technical-support/blade-assembly.html
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My phone's auto correct is really making me look uneducated :-(
Time for a different keyboard.
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Oh goodness. What a conundrum. You are almost gauranteed blade sizing issues in this case. You might get lucky though and given what Nate said about the Edeas having a shorter sole be able to keep the same blade size. fwiw- my feet haven't grown- those Riedells I mentioned earlier never really fit right, and this go-around on my Risports I needed a 1/4" smaller blade. So if your feet are bigger now, but the edeas take a shorter blade than harlicks normally do, you just might be in luck. I think though, if I were in your situation, I'd definitely at least consider used blades, if you can find them. How many more years are you going to get out of your Harlicks? Assuming you're not going to let your new blades get to the state of your profs, how many years do you think you'll get out if them?
All will become clear when you get to the fitter. But, if you're feeling curious and have an idea what Edea size you'd need (I'm a size 9 US/40 European, and I'd have taken a 265), then this might help you ballpark. You won't know for sure until your foot is in the skate though.
http://www.edeaskates.com/en/ice-skates/technical-support/blade-assembly.html
I was fitted for Edeas (I think in a 265?) and they told me I'd need a 10" blade - I wear a 10 1/4" on my Riedells right now so I think you might just be in luck with the shorter blade on your Harlicks. I have another friend who went from a 10" blade to a 9 3/4" when she switched to Edeas so it does seem to be about 1/4" different.
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Yes if you're a tad bigger than one size in Edea then you would go up 5 cm and then you may luck out and be able to use a longer blade. At same boot length, they generally take a shorter blade.
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I BOUGHT NEW SKATES! I'll let you know if I like them, but want to give it two weeks before I issue a verdict.
I bought Edea Ice Fly with Jackson Ultima blade.
Edea weight per boot with blade: 1 pound 15 ounces
Harlick weight per boot with blade: 2 pounds 15 ounces
Edea blade size: 9.75 (could have gone with a 9.5 too
Harlick blade size: 10.25
Oh, and my Harlicks were a little too big! That's not Harlick's fault. I bought them 3 months after my 2nd baby was born. I had very bad fallen arches (plantar) after the 2nd baby was born and weighed more. Arches tightened and I lost weight. So, I think my feet must have been a little bigger than they are now.
It takes a few hours to get the Edeas feeling pretty perfect. My big toe is near the front, but not squishing or even touching at the front. My other toes were crunched, before the stretching. The time was spent heating, stretching, and then me standing on them. Plan on 3+ hours for the fitting. The inner is like a tennis shoe, but the outer is rigid. They hug everywhere.
The Concerto Edeas are actually alot stronger than the Ice Flys. (Like, the mafia should buy Concerto's for river burials.) The fitter said that he finds men do better in the Concertos, but they are just too strong for women or girls.
Fitter said that the Edeas have a higher heel, and this makes for a shorter blade. The shorter blade is going to make my footwork and moves in the field easier. I did get the "turning a ski" effect occasionally, especially when trying to do straight line swizzles. When I was a kid, i had two pairs of skates: figures and freestyle. If I remember right, my figure blades were dance blades. The Ultima blades I bought have a 30 day guarantee. And, I can get them over to the other rink to get them sharpened, even I have to ground UPS them. Because they are stainless, less sharpening. But, these Ultimas are supposed to make a different sound. My coach doesn't mind the sound of an edge, but she will not put up with toe picks scratching. 30 day guarantee, we will see.
The Edeas are shorter on the leg, a little more like a dance boot. Personally, I'd like skates strapped up to my knees. So, this is something that I am going to have to see about.
Next week, i am resigned to the fact that I will not be able to skate. I may wear my wrist guards. With a higher heel and new blades . . . I expect to fall.
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Great!
Such light boots must feel WONDERFUL.
You needn't give up on the Harlicks for size. I'd just put a little tape or foam underneath the current insoles, or add another pair of thin insoles.
If you want knee-high (hah!) boots for more ankle support, can the fitter can modify the fit on top to give you that support by conforming to the ankle area?
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Yes, he hugged the ankle area, and I might have to go back for more.
OMG, jumping in them is alot easier. I was jumping at the final fitting (not twisting), and they were sooooooo light. I wanted to yell, "I'm free, I'm free."
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I BOUGHT NEW SKATES! I'll let you know if I like them, but want to give it two weeks before I issue a verdict.
If I remember right, my figure blades were dance blades.
The Edeas are shorter on the leg, a little more like a dance boot. Personally, I'd like skates strapped up to my knees. So, this is something that I am going to have to see about.
Yay you!!!!! I hope you love them. I bought dance boots this time around. The lower height coupled with the "new" skate design that just doesn't close that tight around my ankles is something I'm still "adjusting" to after a season. So I understand where you're coming from with "skates tied up to your knee!!" Hopefully you'll get comfortable in them sooner than me.
You may have been patching in dance blades, I dunno, but my figure blades are actually a smidge wider than freestyle blades, and while they have more of a toe pick than dance blades they've zero drag pick. No scratching picks there! I'm curious what you think of the stainless steel. I'm now in a situation where my synchro team is sharing ice with a team of skaters that wear hockey skates (ss runners). Holy cow are their blades loud. I never really noticed it before from the stands......
And that is a huge size difference in blades. Pregnancy does funny things, eh?
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Skated forward for 1.5 hours. Skated like a beginner.
My right foot was totally comfortable. Not even a sore spot, and my bauer bump felt great. My left foot has a super pressure point in the boot that I couldn't feel until I was on the ice. It's on the inside of my foot, and a place where I have to normally get punched out. I'm still unsure about the lower profile. The support is there, but it's like my tendons above the ankle are looking for the boot to control. I like the feeling of the blade right under my toes. That's cool.
The blades are the BIG adjustment, and the rocker is the biggest adjustment to the blades. I had no rocker before, and now I can rock on my rocker. I did a few outside forward three turns. Feels like the toe pick is a mile in the front of the boot. I have to go up, and the blade curves and curves and curves and curves . . and then I hit the toe pick. Before, I was doing three turns hitting my toe pick. Now, I can do them without coming onto the toe, but that's going to require retraining my brain. Glad I got an 8' rocker. A 7' rocker would feel like a roller coaster at Six Flags.
At first, I couldn't even drag the blade, it caught in the ice. It wants to bite the ice, and I only put a 1/2" hollow! Finally, I was able to do some snow plow stops. T stops are going to take a week. Power pulls, the edge just really grips the ice. Same thing with figure 8s, the blade bites into the ice. The stainless blade felt different in how it runs. Overall, it feels faster and bites. Because it was a public, I didn't hear the blade.
Moral to the story . . . .don't let your blades get so worn that you have to relearn basics like T-stops and 3 turns!!!! Even Edeas are going to have a break in time and you might have a sore spot or two
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The Edeas are shorter on the leg, a little more like a dance boot.
Almost all modern boots are shorter on the ankle than most boots were 20+ years ago. I didn't notice that the Edeas I tried on a few months ago were any shorter than the Jacksons I had been wearing were, but I do notice that my custom Harlicks are a little lower at the very back then my Jacksons were - which makes attempting things like spread eagles a little easier.
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Almost all modern boots are shorter on the ankle than most boots were 20+ years ago. I didn't notice that the Edeas I tried on a few months ago were any shorter than the Jacksons I had been wearing were, but I do notice that my custom Harlicks are a little lower at the very back then my Jacksons were - which makes attempting things like spread eagles a little easier.
I know a woman coach who is close to 6 feet tall but has normal sized feet. Her tales of trying to get boots with a shaft high enough up her calf are epics.
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Knee high skates:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Oq7x_sZoa24/SvkAL2rO79I/AAAAAAAADdo/J-PNqQzpMFY/s1600-h/xanadu.jpg
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/113504853078496082/
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Adult-Size-Knee-High-Figure-Skate-Roller-Derby-Ice-Skating-Covers-in-GOLD-/201161221440?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ed624a540
:)
They say ice skates used to be like that.
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A little visual history...
Even in my lifetime, skates have changed height and design over time. All of these are Riedells, the top and middle are Gold Stars, the bottom skates were Riedell beginner skates (check out the toe picks!). Even they were 3x as expensive as rec skates from the department stores. The oldest skates have 5 lace hooks compared to the other two, and the newest Gold Stars have the lace hooks spaced closer together. (Picture should get bigger when clicked)
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/bills_skates_3_t.jpg)
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Ooooh, Bill. Those 1977 toepicks are scary!
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With a pair of figure skates that predated those (but with similar beginner picks), I still managed to take out a friend's two front teeth in the 60s.
We were playing hockey on a frozen pond using tree branches as sticks, and a tin-can for a puck. I fell backwards, and kicked upward just when he fell toward me. The pick hit him in the mouth. It was a bad, bloody scene, and it still makes me cringe. I still feel so sorry for him.
Moral of the story, any toe pick at all is bad news when playing hockey.
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I remember having all those creases in my skates in the late 70's. If the top fell over, flopping like a dog's ear, then the skate was "broken down." Now, if there is a single, long crease people get weirded out.
Spent this morning "punching" out my skate. All it took was a blow dryer and the handle end of a screwdriver and standing in them. I'm hoping to go skating this afternoon's public session. I'll take my tools with me.
(Another reason why hockey players, today, wear full face cages. On my son's mite team, they are in mouth guards (for concussions, as well as teeth), neck guards, and every other guard. My husband now wears cut proof socks. He's heard of other players blades coming down on one's boot, cutting it and the achilles tendon.)
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Even later, in the 80's we used the same "flop" test for when skates were broken down. I didn't realise how much skate height had changed. It's hard to tell from scale, but my 1988-ish Riedell comps are probably comparable to your 2002 gold stars. THey were uncomfortable, for a variety of reasons, but shaft height was part of it. I still have scars on my heels. That was part of the reason I went with dance boots, and given that I still, after a season, am cinching them as tight as possible since I'm looking for that boot to push against a little higher up (like you said earlier), I might very well go back to something freestyle. But I like the cut out in the back, and it looks like synchro boots are now cut like dance boots at the top. Not in need right now, but will be looking closely when boot time comes around again.
I'm really curious as to how you evolve with the pattern 99 profile. I didn't want to spend that much money, so didn't even consider them. But I'm eager to see how to adapt to that spin rocker. I never realised that wilson had the 3 diameter profile before (or whatever call it), so I've learned quite a lot through your sharing of experience! I just looked again at the skate science blades. I'm very intrigued, in particular because their synchro blade seems to be much better designed (at least on paper, and in terms of what I think I 'd like) than what is generally available...... Wish they were more forthcoming on their rocker length and details of the profile though.
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I had literally no adjustment to the Infinity coming from MK Pro, but the rocker has all the right things for me. Not sure how it would work for someone else. Personally my skating got instantly better and looking back at past video I can see exactly why.
The rocker shape is just perfect for how I balance my weight in my skates and on my blade. Some people have a lot of trouble with the spin rocker (and general rocker profile) being flatter and further back, but since I balance there naturally it was a match made in heaven - not just for spins but turns, edging, crossovers - everything.
The toe pick on them is very aggressive, especially the non-plated (i.e. extremely sharp) picks on Riedell blades. You just have to touch the ice to obliterate it. That's the only adjustment, I'm not used to my pick digging so deep in the ice so my jump timing is sometimes off, and since the pick cluster is bigger with a bigger drag pick angle, edge jumps can have the same issue sometimes. But I'm largely over that, now.
If you want the pick cluster similar to a P99 (though slightly smaller) with an intermediate rocker profile, get the MK Vision.
Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 using Tapatalk.
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Thanks Nate. I am in the Ultima Matrix Elite right now .
I did a side-by-side comparison of my Harlicks verses these Edeas. The Edeas feel lower on the leg, but they really are not. I guess it's that they are a soft boot, not broken in, and there are fewer hooks. So, my Harlicks must feel tighter on my leg, which I translated into being higher on my leg. I'll post pictures of the side-by-side.
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Those Edeas, I've heard rave reviews about. So, I am going to a pro-shop in Coral Springs (about 100 miles away) to see a pair of Edeas. If I get them and don't like them, then I'll be back to my Harlicks.
Wait, there's a proshop in Florida that carries Edeas!? :D :D :D
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Day 2 report.
Boots
We punched out the skate with a hair dryer and thumb. I was in 60% less pain on that spot today. I will punch it a little more tomorrow morning. My feet tendons are constantly working right now, and I'm not sure if it's the boot or the blade. They get very tired inside the boot. It could also be the fact that the boot is still molding to my foot. The memory foam is comfortable, but gives a little bit of room for my feet tendons to fully flex. The boots are super light. I can really lift my legs up and in all directions very easily. That is going to be a big plus. I am also really liking having the thinner soles. Absolutely no blisters!
Blades
They were sharpened to 1/2 inch hollow, just like my old skates. Tonight at public, the ice was very rough. The ice had a half inch (or more) of snow on it it was so in need of a zamboni. In my old blades, I'd be pumping my leg muscles just to get through it. In my new blades, I had so much bite that I did power pulls in that poor ice without any problem. I barely had to push, and I glided right across the ice! My new blades are so much less tiring. I did try a 5 step mohawk sequence. That went ok. The rocker is still weird, but I decided against doing three turns too much. It was a crowded session, with a few newbie guys skating way too fast for their ability. I'll deal with backwards and turns tomorrow at an empty public session.
But, the touch of my new blades has to be so light. In my power pulls, I barely have to push in the knee, much less in the ankle. In my old blades, I was pushing down in the ankle to try to cut a turn. On my t stops, I can now drag the blade without it catching. But, coming to a sliding stop on just my sliding foot and lifting the foot in front . . .I'd bite in and stop abruptly. If I wanted more pushing (less bite), would I go with a shallower hollow (5/8)?
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You would get less bite with a shallower hollow but I'd caution against trying that just yet - it's always weird to skate on new blades and boots that aren't broken in, it kind of amplifies problems you'd be expecting with freshly sharp blades. I intentionally put dull blades (they had been used for about 6 months, I'd had them sharpened about 2 months before I took them off my old boots) on my last pair of new boots to ease the transition - when I finally sharpened those blades 3 weeks later I was able to adapt really quickly since I'd already mostly broken in my boots by then, but I know if I had stepped on the ice with freshly sharpened blades and brand new boots 3 weeks earlier, I would have struggled to stop, and it wouldn't have meant the hollow was wrong, it would be mostly because the boots weren't bending where I needed/expected them to yet.
So I'd personally give it a couple of weeks until your boots have broken in more, and if you are still feeling then like you'd prefer a shallower hollow, then make the change, but doing it now might be a bit premature and you'll shorten your blade life going from a deeper hollow to a shallower one (it removes more metal from the blade).
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Thanks! Will give it a few weeks. I did better in them tonight, so there is progress!
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Wait, there's a proshop in Florida that carries Edeas!? :D :D :D
I think she means Tim Burt, who used to be viewed by many as the best skate technician (fitters/sharpeners) in Virginia (near DC). I think he moved to Florida quite recently.
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Sorry to take Tim from you! You can plan a beach trip here, and visit him!
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Update.
Boots:
I had some cramping in my feet/arches. I took breaks and that helped me get over that. My left instep's sore spot still hurt. Deep edges, and it was excruciating. I bought a small gel pad at the rink's Pro Shop, and it solved 85% of the issue. I think my bone is sore, and the boot is fine.
Blades:
Wow!!! I am still learning the rocker, but did pretty good today. I did two foot spins, a one foot spin, power threes, 5 step mohawk sequence, backwards outside figure eights. forward inside and outside figure eights, inside three turns (at wall), and a waltz jump (at the wall). All of this I did at a slower pace and with less oomph that I normally do. But, I did them! These blades feel wonderful and I can't wait until I get more used to them. They turn so well, and I am not fighting my Moves in the Field. Even on an outside backwards figure eight, it was strong & equal on each side. Loved that! But, I still couldn't do a t-stop.
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I think she means Tim Burt, who used to be viewed by many as the best skate technician (fitters/sharpeners) in Virginia (near DC). I think he moved to Florida quite recently.
Me and my boyfriend just got boots and blades from Tim Burt and he REALLY does have impeccable customer service skills. He went above and beyond to make sure everything was ok with our fitting since him(us) and Jackson had an unbelievable unsatisfactory experience. Tim was so kind as to not charge us for new soakers and new rocker blade guards. I rate Tim Burt as a 5 star skate technician! Definitely the best in Florida and I wouldn't doubt in the U.S
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Spent this morning "punching" out my skate. All it took was a blow dryer and the handle end of a screwdriver and standing in them. I'm hoping to go skating this afternoon's public session. I'll take my tools with me.
So would you mind going into detail on how you did this?? I interperet: Open the skate all the way up, hit the spot on the outside with the hair dryer and rub with the screwdriver handle from the inside. ?? But then how did you stand in them, or does the leather stay hot enough for long enough or did you not need to tighten the laces??
I ask because I'm going to need to do this to my skates- they were punched out this summer and on my right foot (with the bunion) it's not enough. And the reason it didn't work when the cobbler stretched them before is because neither he nor I knew they needed to be heated up first. So new to this heat molding technology.....
TIA
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Edeas are meant to change with the heat of a hair dryer. I heated up with an air dryer for about 5 minutes, moving it back & forth so as not to burn it. Then, I put the screwdriver head where I wanted a punch and held it for about another 5 minutes. Then, I put the boot on & lace it all up & stand in it.
Update:
Boots: Achy, achy, achy, achy feet. Had to take more breaks then yesterday. About half my time is on the bench. I really think it's my bad feet & arches just getting used to a new skate. I always ached in my Harlicks, but just not to this extent. One of our coaches uses Dr. Scholls high heel inserts. I'm going to go try them or the hidden arch supports. I'm also going to try some sports tape.
But, from reading posts on skiing boot, total achy issues, it could be that my feet muscles are really overworking in these boots because they and the blade are new. I had plantar fascitius years ago, and it could be that too. Or, it could be a little of both. The pain is unbearable aches and cramps.
Blades: Absolutely great. Still getting used to the rocker, especially going backwards. I scratch the toe. So, I have to bend my knee more, then I don't scratch the toe pick. Coach is going to do cartwheels on the ice when she sees my bent knees. Spins feel great in them. Did one foot scratch spins and a sit spin. Also, did some little waltz jumps. But my feet are hampered by the boots.
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Edeas are meant to change with the heat of a hair dryer. I heated up with an air dryer for about 5 minutes, moving it back & forth so as not to burn it. Then, I put the screwdriver head where I wanted a punch and held it for about another 5 minutes. Then, I put the boot on & lace it all up & stand in it.
Thanks! Hopefully it'll work with my Risports. If not, I can live with it as is, but there's no way to get it punched out if I don't work out how to do it myself...... I really need to open the boot around the ball of my left foot. It's almost there....
Sorry the boots are being a drag. Hopefully those inserts will work well for you. Great news about the blades though, glad you're liking them!
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Boots: Hell. Edeas are hell right now. 45 minutes at the rink, spent 15 in the ice. Had to get off three times to try different things. Total foot & arch cramps, extremely bad pain.
At first, I taped my arch and used a gel arch insert made by Dr. Scholls. Did 5 laps, then the cramping began. Did another three laps, then had to get off the ice. I laid in agony. Took off boots, and immediately better. But boots back on and went on ice. Tried to do power three turns, and absolutely had to get immediately off the ice due to foot cramping.
Second, with taped arches I used a hard insert for the arch. Didn't get the boot strapped up and there was immediate cramping. Took out everything, but left my foot taped.
Third, with just my foot taped, went out again on the ice. My right boot was very loose on every hook. I was stable, but no pain. I don't like the feel of loose boots. I tightened it up a little bit. A little bit of cramping. Then, the session was over.
I am wondering if my boots are too tight at the bottom. They don't feel it.
Tomorrow is another day.
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Oh man, poor you! Hopefully you have time for a nice footbath and someone to massage them.
I have issues with my Risports, as I mentioned earlier, they are too narrow over the balls of my feet (an issue I've had with every pair of skates I've owned). I don't know if your issue might be similar or not, but I can't wear my skates for more than an hour, and if they're not on and then tied perfectly, it's agonizing. I get cramping in the arches and pain on the heels and over the balls of my feet. Maybe this will help you though: first and foremost, I make sure my heel is all the way back. Then when I tie, I keep the laces very loose (just tight enough so they're not floppy) over the toes and beginning of the arch. I only do the last two holes, right before the hooks, tight. Then I do a half-knot, and crank the hooks as tight as humanely possible, I do another half knot at the top, and then go back down the hooks, cranking even further down on the laces. My fingers often bleed during the tightening. It has taken a lot of experimenting, and retying on the ice to get to something that works OK.
How far away is the Edea fitter? Might they have some insight? Isn't it amazing how something that can feel OK or even good in the store, and still OK first couple times on the ice can suddenly turn so evil? I hope this is just a break-in situation for you and that it will be over soon. Good luck!
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Guess what happened? They fit and didn't hurt hardly at all! What did I do differently? I loosened the laces down to the toe and retied up how Edea likes you to tie them. I think I must have somehow tightened everything up too much. Yeah!!!
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Guess what happened? They fit and didn't hurt hardly at all! What did I do differently? I loosened the laces down to the toe and retied up how Edea likes you to tie them. I think I must have somehow tightened everything up too much. Yeah!!!
This is like calling IT support and they tell you to do a hard reboot and it fixes everything. ;D
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If the blades are still too sharp, ask Tim to dull them a bit - or do it yourself. Sharpness and ROH aren't exactly the same thing.
BTW, if you stay with 1/2" hollow, you can buy relatively inexpensive used Berghman hand sharpeners ($5-$25) on eBay, that are adjustable enough to handle Matrix blades. (But the oldest 1930's era sharpeners had rather crumbly abrasive stones.)
But sharpening yourself always has to be done carefully, to make sure you don't mess things up. E.g., be sure to record the profile first, make sure your edges are even, and tape the toe pick so you don't accidentally dull it. Tape the part that slides along the blade too, so it doesn't scratch the sides of the blade.
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Guess what happened? They fit and didn't hurt hardly at all! What did I do differently? I loosened the laces down to the toe and retied up how Edea likes you to tie them. I think I must have somehow tightened everything up too much. Yeah!!!
YAY!!! Tying is EVERYTHING, isn't it?!
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Update: Stretched the skate just a tad near the balls of my feet on both sides, and it was much better skate. Didn't fall asleep or go numb. Still have a sore spot on my right inside foot, that I am dealing with. It makes an inside edge hurt. If it still hurts tomorrow, then I'm going to have to stretch that one little spot a tad more.
Blades, I am getting used to.
Did sit spins, back spins, scratch spins, loop jumps, and salchow jumps. Not as great as they were before, but I did several revolutions and it was clean.
I tried a camel spin. The boots are so light, that I over muscled the camel entrance/first revolution because I am used to more weight. That led to my toe. The rest of the times trying, I have lost where to spin and the whole timing on the first revolution getting set into position. I tried pulling back on the blade, but ended up with a ski effect. The change in the rocker is so dramatic, that my wonderful camel spin has vanished. That gives me something to work on.
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Update: Stretched the skate just a tad near the balls of my feet on both sides, and it was much better skate. Didn't fall asleep or go numb.
We are on the concertos, me and my partner's big toe gets numb completely. After you took it to get it stretched, would you say it stop numbing your toe completely?
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Boots:
Yes, I am no longer numb in my boot since last weekends stretching near the front/ball/big toe/little toe areas of the boots. What we did was to mark it on the outside, heat with a blow dryer on the outside of the boot for 10 minutes, and then stretch it slightly, and then stand in it for 20 or so minutes.
I have an ankle bump that I am going to stretch this morning. I still have a little bit of arch cramping about 10 minutes into skating. I had this with my Harlicks too. I get over it in about 3 minutes, and then am perfect for skating. I had very bad plantar fascitius several years ago, and I don't think that tendon is still 100% today and that is what causes me the temporary arch cramping. Only when I get the luxury to skate 10+ hours a week does it go away.
Blades:
Backspins are getting stronger. Did backwards outside and backwards inside figure eights, and they felt good but were not perfect by any means. Moves in the field are coming along. Scratch and sit spins are awesome in this new blade. Waltz jumps are totally awesome. Did some three blade length loop jumps today, but two footed those (grr).
Camel isn't there yet. I am falling on my inside on the camel. If I put alot of pressure on my outside hand/arm, then it gets a little better and I try to point the toe of my free leg. Everything is now locking, but even with all of this . . . I am still falling onto my inside of the camel. Trying to figure it out.
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UPdate!!!!
Skated WITHOUT pain or cramping. Did a final bumpout over the weekend and am home free! Love the boots & blades now.
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Yay!!!
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UPdate!!!!
Skated WITHOUT pain or cramping. Did a final bumpout over the weekend and am home free! Love the boots & blades now.
Yay!!!! Very very nice.
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It feels so wonderful when the pain goes away!
You are so very lucky that you had someone like Tim Burt to help you. A lot of skaters never find a skate technician who knows what they are doing, and remain in pain.
Your solution to stretch the leather using the handle of a screw driver together with the hair drier was quite innovative. Was that your idea?
I confess that I bought a purpose-built tool to do the same on mine. Your solution is so much more elegant, for those cases where you don't need to clamp the tool in place for a greater stretch. I will add it to my page on modifying boots, and credit you with the idea.
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UPdate!!!!
Skated WITHOUT pain or cramping. Did a final bumpout over the weekend and am home free! Love the boots & blades now.
Yippee.
Especially as I'm about to try the same combination ;)
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The screwdriver idea was more of Tim Burt's ok. You should get Tim's ok before posting he was in agreement. I didn't want to drive back 100 miles, for a minor adjustment.
My husband also used a workbench/clamp for the harder areas, like the ball of the boot. That is still a good idea. We did a bit of stretching using it.
This boot and blade combination MAKES you bend your knees for backwards anything. Because I am tipped forward in the boot due to the higher heel and I now have a rocker, it's super easy to scratch my toe pick . . . .unless I bend in my knees and ankles. Coaches are all about bending those knees! Today's lesson was getting me to totally stop scratching my toe pick. And, I'm still going too much on my toe in a camel spin, and falling over the inside edge. Today's lesson was also about that too.
But, other things are actually getting to feel alot better in these new boots and blades (scratch, sit spin, back spin, waltz jump landings, salchow felt high and great today). Even did a cannonball spin today and got real low on my sit spin.
So, I'll figure it out while the coach is away to take another student to regionals, I'm going to work real hard to impress her next week!
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Because they are so flat, I am leaning towards going up to 8' rocker. I think going back to a 7' rocker is going to feel weird. Anyone measured worn out blades? But, I worry that, "Will I be able to skate on an 8?" "They" say that an 8' is for advanced skaters. I don't do doubles. I am 45 years young. I am working on adding loops after every jump, and am on my axel journey. Some days, I have a 6 revolution camel, but most days it is 3. I am working on my flying camel (3 revolutions). My sit spins are strong, and I like to pull back on the blade. I have a pretty good backspin, even the kids complement me on it.
I read the kudos on parabolic blades, and how they center your balance. That sounds great because loops in footwork and brackets on a straight line are not the most fun. But, I've only skated on parallel blades. Anyone skate switch to parabolic, what was the learning curve? And, I'm afraid to get an expensive blade. I think our pro shop would butcher it. Are parabolics easier to butcher?
I've shared my story elsewhere recently, but in brief, I got high-end skates within a month or two of first skating at the age of 24 - Graf Edmonton boots with Gold Star blades (7' rocker). I didn't dislike those skates, but I skated hard and after a year the boots were done for in dire need of replacement, so I went all out and in addition to switching to Klingbeil boots, I switched to Gold Seals (8' rocker). It was a very positive transition! After I got through the ankle bone pains of breaking in the boots, I found everything on the Gold Seals to be much better. I more than doubled the number of revolutions I could do in a spin (maximum I got on video was 40 revolutions), and centered much better. I've never managed an axel but I did get pretty good at all the other single jumps. Both sets of skates were big investments but I loved skating and it really wasn't that much over the course of time compared to rink fees.
But I think there's more to blades than the rocker measurement - the profile on the front in particular can vary between different models, and how low the toe pick comes down. What blade is best probably depends a lot on the skater, and the tiny differences between how different boots align your foot (a few millimeters adjustment in heel height might change the position on the blade you comfortably spin on). I've heard that there can also be a lot of variance between different copies of the same blades from the same manufacturer. Also a lot can probably be compensated for by a skilled skater.
Those skates which I loved ended up stolen, and I replaced them with another set of Klingbeils but with Paramount 440 blades, which are also an 8' rocker. It's not the same. I cannot center spins very often on these blades, and I think a simple psychological effect of not liking the appearance as much as the traditional style blade affects me too if I'm really honest about it. I don't think they're bad blades, but they're not the same, and I intend on going back to Gold Seals at some point.
I wish blades were like golf clubs, where you could try them. Don't want to make a several hundred dollar mistake.
I think 8' rockers are great, but it's a personal opinion. Unfortunately the only thing we can do is spend money and play the trial-and-error game. I would likely be happy with a lower level blade but I don't really want to waste time finding out - I know Gold Seals work well for me so when I have the money for another pair of skates that's what I plan to get. A few hundred dollars might be wasted if a cheaper set would work equally well for me, but I won't lose any sleep over that. That said, I'm sure most people think I'm crazy for buying such high-end skates at a low level, and they are quite likely correct, but I'm okay with that. :P
My husband is an engineer and rebuilds cars. He can do anything mechanical. Should I have him spend $5,000 on a sharpening system? Anyone ever learned how to do blades from scratch? Seems extreme, but . . . the whole family skates. I had a GREAT, independent skate sharpener, but he moved away. :-(
Personally, I like to use a hand sharpening stone - I used to have one that was a teardrop shape like the one on the upper left of this picture:
(http://img.inlinewarehouse.com/new_product/IBLST-1.jpg)
You can do a fair bit with the stone without doing much to the blade, because it does not take very much metal off. I would hand sharpen them frequently because I really liked the nice crisp "just sharpened" feeling, and would only go to a really good sharpener that was a couple hours' drive away a few times a year, mainly because I didn't trust that I wasn't screwing up my ROH or evenness between sides slowly over time. As hand sharpening does not remove much metal it extends the life of the blades significantly. I would even do a hand sharpening immediately after each machine sharpening, because it would remove a very slight ripple pattern that the machine would leave (you can see and feel this after a machine sharpening). I would feel really leery of using a machine myself though I'm mechanically-inclined, at least with expensive blades. A mistake can be made with a machine in a few seconds that would take hours to do with hand sharpening. What I think you should do regardless is take a careful tracing and pictures of your blades when they are new, and compare your blades to the original tracing after each sharpening to make sure the profile hasn't been changed.
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What is the advantage of the "teardrop" shape stone, as opposed to a cylinder? Is it easier to handle with precision?
The hand sharpeners I've tried use a cylindrical stone (the radius becomes the ROH), and have handles that help you center the stone on the blade. I tried sharpening without the handle, but couldn't produce clean edges.
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What is the advantage of the "teardrop" shape stone, as opposed to a cylinder? Is it easier to handle with precision?
The hand sharpeners I've tried use a cylindrical stone (the radius becomes the ROH), and have handles that help you center the stone on the blade. I tried sharpening without the handle, but couldn't produce clean edges.
I don't know how to compare, it's the only one I ever had/used. It was easy to hold on to, and I would also occasionally use that flat edges against the outside facets of the blade if there was a nick protruding out. In my case the round end was much smaller than the ROH, maybe a quarter inch. So I would hold it vertical to the blade to grind down the center a bit, then work on each side individually by slanting the stone a bit towards and holding it against one edge at a time. With this approach maintenance of ROH was guesswork but as I wasn't removing much metal it worked out well. I used a small square to check evenness between sides, but my skating would slowly cause unevenness more than sharpening. :P
I also used to prefer a deep ROH - usually I had 5/16" but I think once I even tried 1/4". On the paramounts I can't do that, and even the standard 7/16" feels too sharp after years since they were last sharpened (granted I've skated only occasionally in that time). I don't know if that's due to different steel or profile or what. When I got the paramounts they didn't have different profile options so I'm not sure what they are closest to.
P.S. Query, which rink(s) do you skate at? I'm also in Maryland. Not skating very much (or well at all) these days but maybe I'll get back into it soon. Also moving from Frederick to somewhere closer to Columbia in January, so I imagine I will frequent the Columbia and Laurel rinks.
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Casey: Right now I'm mostly skating at Gardens in Laurel, but also volunteer at Fort Dupont in DC. I'm also not skating as much as I would like.
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Cool! I haven't been to that rink rink yet, but as I will likely start skating there sometimes come January, perhaps we'll see each other there!