Does changing to new blades make a difference??

[theexodus]

Hi there! I have had my pair of boots for many years.. probably skated on them for 3 years but had them for 18 years. My old blades are pattern 99 but I am changing to a pair of gold seals and I cannot wait! I have never felt real comfortable with the patts and I have been wondering if it's me or the blades! lol does anyone have similar thoughts? can't wait to hear!

[rosereedy]

ME!!!  I am on Pattern 99 and never really felt all that great on them.  Edge jumps sometimes will cause a HUGE deep rut on take off because of the huge bottom toe pick and they never seem to hold a good sharpening.  I am about to mount my new Gold Seals so it will be interesting to see what they are like.  Some have said that it won't feel different some have said it will.  I think since they have the same rocker that they will be similar.  When do you get your GS?

[Isk8NYC]

I never liked the Pattern 99's - gave them three tries on different pairs of boots and they're sitting in a box now.  Gold Seals were much better blades for me.

[theexodus]

Thanks for your feedback guys. I AM SO GLAD TO HEAR THAT. Yeah mine comes any day now. yoohoo! It's been a long wait.

I've always wondered what was wrong with me... how come I could never get my spins consistent after a few years of skating on them. Now that I have started back skating again at 36, I can finally afford new everything which is great and happy to try something new. My main problem with the patts is that it is very difficult to feel the sweet spot on them and it frustrates the hell out of me. I always tell myself to get used to them but all this while had hated them. I hope GS would be better... I tried to change to phantom special but since the rocker is different I figured I would waste too much time on the transition. However, for the very short time whilst on the phantom (I returned the boots as they were too big) my sit spin was just going on forever and ever. It has always been my nemesis on the patts. AND STILL IS! Arrghh the pain!

[theexodus]

ME!!!  I am on Pattern 99 and never really felt all that great on them.  Edge jumps sometimes will cause a HUGE deep rut on take off because of the huge bottom toe pick and they never seem to hold a good sharpening.  I am about to mount my new Gold Seals so it will be interesting to see what they are like.  Some have said that it won't feel different some have said it will.  I think since they have the same rocker that they will be similar.  When do you get your GS?

please let me know how you go!! good luck!!

[KillianL]

The right equipment makes all the difference!  I sure hope the blade change does the trick for you, theexodus. 

My coach has Gold Seals and has had them for years - same pair I believe.  She is cautious about who she lets sharpen them, but this says something positive about the longevity of that blade.  And she can center a spin like nobody's business... 

[rosereedy]

This is making me feel great about my GS!!  I get them sharpened tonight, remove old blade tonight as well as fill holes and rewaterproof then Thursday night put on the GS.  I will skate Saturday morning so this should be fun.

[Sk8tmum]

Gold seals worked great for my kids - but, I do know of other skaters who do not care for them at all. My guys also moved from Coro Aces, which are the "pre-blade" if that makes sense to the Gold Seal blade.  Some skaters seriously prefer the Pattern 99's, not just because they are cheaper but also because the Seal has cross-cut picks and a more aggressive spin rocker, plus, a higher stanchion (distance between blade and boot). 

The spins weren't the big "win" though, it was the easier turns and better edges, and the ability to hold jump landings.  Spins - meh, no big deal vs. the Aces.

Patrick Chan uses Phantoms ... and I know of lots who swear by those and/or Gold Stars. It's all in the skater's preferences ... I hope these work for you, although, I must admit that I sort of hoped they wouldn't make ANY difference for my kids so that I could go back to cheaper blades!

[emilayy]

when i got my matrix blades, i noticed a huge difference. spins were so much easier, and jumps were so much higher. but i think i've gotten used to the effects by now ):

[rosereedy]

I have skated on my GS 3 times now and I just can't get used to the blade.  Coming from Patterns, this is a huge adjustment.  My coach said it would be but I didn't think it would be this bad.  I can't do a camel without coming up on my toepick and falling out of the spin.  All my other spins are ridiculous.  But when I find the sweet spot for a scratch, it's very centered and lovely.  Haven't tried anything more than a flip for jumps.  Can someone please tell me how long it usually takes to get used to GS blades!?!?

[FigureSpins]

I have skated on my GS 3 times now and I just can't get used to the blade.  Coming from Patterns, this is a huge adjustment.  My coach said it would be but I didn't think it would be this bad.  I can't do a camel without coming up on my toepick and falling out of the spin.  All my other spins are ridiculous.  But when I find the sweet spot for a scratch, it's very centered and lovely.  Haven't tried anything more than a flip for jumps.  Can someone please tell me how long it usually takes to get used to GS blades!?!?

When I switched originally from P99 to GS, it took about a week.  I skated 8-12 hours a week.

I'm having the same problem in going from Gold Seals to Ultima - I feel like I'm going over the front of the blade on backspin entries.

One thing that's really helped has been to practice really slow figures and turns.  Controlling the rollup and finding the rocker seems easier after I do that.

[rosereedy]

When I switched originally from P99 to GS, it took about a week.  I skated 8-12 hours a week.

I'm having the same problem in going from Gold Seals to Ultima - I feel like I'm going over the front of the blade on backspin entries.

One thing that's really helped has been to practice really slow figures and turns.  Controlling the rollup and finding the rocker seems easier after I do that.

Thank you for the info. I will give it about 4 more weeks before complaining again. I will try your bit about figures and turns.

[Meje]

Ohh this is a timely topic! Ive just switched from C Ace to GS (paramount, with GS profile). Ive only ever skated in CA, so its quite a change.

It is encouraging to hear that Im not the only one taking time to adjust to the spin rocker, mind you Ive only skated 3 times in them, so Im just going to cut myself some slack and give myself time to adjust.... as frustrating as it is to have lost just about everything in the meantime! Ive been going back and 'started the learning proccess again' and am finding it helps. So with scratch spin, Ive been doing lots of 2 foot spins, followed by t-push entry, then attempting a wind up entrance. Taking it through the learning progression steps again is helping me to get a good feel for the new rocker. When I do get it its a really nice feeling spin!

Adjustment issues aside, I really like them! I can tell once I get used to them that Ill love them

[ls99]

As a newbie skater this is mostly an academic question for me. I only started skating this past January after a 50 year break, and am 63 yrs young/old

 Nonetheless, having spent 15 yrs as techie in Seismology, another 15 with electric trains, no not the toy ones, the big life sized ones . I wanted to know just what exactly is different in some blades.

Since about February this year I am skating on MK Double Stars. I have an option on good used MK Professionals. So I sent email to MK questioning the specific differences between the Double Stars and Professionals. They should be able answer that question with factual information.

A public relations type by the first name of Zoe responded with a nice color PDF brochure of the various skates they make, suggesting I will find the answer there.
In fact I looked at the same brochure before asking questions, and finding no useable answers, hence sending my email to MK.

I emailed her back repeating my question. It has been several says, still no response.

There is no description of what is different in the two blades except for radius of hollow. Which of course is meaningless, since it is easily altered by the skate shops.

Reading through most of this board's postings regarding skate blade differences, are mostly subjective. Searching the web, the situation is similar, lots of "I like XYZ blades" I had not found any drawings of blades of equal size describing the exact differences.

I am curious, why the dearth of information on specific blade geometries? Does anyone know?

[sarahspins]

I have skated on both double stars and professionals, and my experience was that the professionals had a slightly bigger toepick (both in terms of the size/number of picks and the size of the lower drag pick) and that the quality and finish of the blade was quite a bit nicer than the double star.  The profiles must have been pretty similar because aside from the difference of the drag pick (which was something i really only felt on salchows and loops) I really didn't notice much change between the two blades - I was jumping and spinning the first day in the pros without any notable trouble (apart from being in new stiff boots).  The drag pick was also the only difference I really felt between the pros and the phantoms I skate in now - in terms of footwork and turns, they really felt very similar to me.

I learned all of my single jumps except for axel on the double stars (and I only went to a different blade because I went up a boot size and needed new blades - the pro shop had the pros in stock, so that's what we went with).. they are certainly capable blades so I wouldn't necessarily concern yourself with "needing" to upgrade.. it is only a small upgrade.  If you have a good lead on a pair of used professionals that are the right size it might be worthwhile to pick those up simply because blades do eventually need to be replaced, but personally I would save them for when you have no sharpening left on your current blades and need to replace them.

There is a drawing on the paramount website showing the profiles of several top-level blades, however the differences truly are quite subtle and even the diagram really doesn't do anything to tell you about the lower level blades... my understanding with the MK blades is that the profiles are all almost identical between them all and the only notable differences between blades have to do with the picks.

[ls99]

Thanks sarahspins, for the description and link. I do see the differences on the graphs they show.

Changing blades is not a need, more of a curiosity.

By the way, while I'm pretty agile for an old phart, jumping is not something on my list. Actually jumping I could likely handle, spinning in mid air is in another dimension. I do enjoy playing with figure eights for now on both edges. Forward only for time being. Need to get them looking like eights. All in good time.

Will be interesting to see if MK will provide specifics. I am really curious what  the extra 50 bucks or so buys when new on the Pros over the **s.

[FigureSpins]

My kids went from a rec blade to Double Stars to (Ultima) Mark IV and then to Coronation Ace blades.  They really liked both the Double Stars and the Coronation Aces.  Their spins improved on both types of blades.  Unless you need new blades, hold off on buying them.  If you decide to change boots, you might need a different size blade. 

I had bought a pair of Coronation Aces, brand-new, at a great price online.  The original plan was to swap them for the stock blades on her Freestyles, but between Synchro and the December show, there was no time to do that. 

Suddenly, DD had a growth spurt and went up 1.5 sizes ... the blades I had purchased were too short for the boot.  Fortunately, the pro shop agreed to exchange them for the right size.  (Only because I was buying the boots from them and the blades/box were obviously brand-new, so they could resell them to someone else.)

[ls99]

Spent a bit more time looking at the profiles of blades on the Paramount link posted by sarahspins.

From a strictly mechanical point of view:

The differences are very significant if looked at from the perspective of a lever and where the fulcrum is.

It looks like a slight lift of the heel on pattern 99 gets the ball of the foot weighing on the first point where the radii change. I am ignoring the second radius change closer to the toe pick.

 Whereas the Gold Seal would require a good bit more lifting of heel to get to the point where the radii change. Not sure on the Gold Seals the ball of the foot is ever over the changeover point.

Wonder if the purchasers of these blades are informed of these bits of information, or are they left to discover by sheer frustration experimentation.

I suppose if I ever get good enough for more advance blades, I will discover the practical effects benefits of the various patterns.

By the way as of today still no word from MK re: my original question.

 

[sarahspins]

The differences in profile are really quite subtle.. especially when you combine them with the fact that not all of those blades have identical drag picks.  The drag pick will make a huge difference in how the spin rocker "feels" to the skater.

[Query]

From a personal perspective, the differences are very large between Ultima Dance and MK Dance. But many skaters adjust more easily than me.

If the Pattern 99's really do have two sweet spots and two spin rockers up front, that would tend to reduce the strength of each transition, so it is not surprising that the sweet spot is hard to find. But you can strengthen the sweet spot by grinding in a strong sudden transition at that point - even produce a cusp, where there is a slight change of direction. You can also move a sweet spot to where you want to turn or spin, if you like that. These things help me - but many much better skaters don't need them. E.g., some coaches can skate on absolutely anything.

But of course there are trade-offs, as with any physics and engineering design. You need greater strength and control to use a shape that will initiate turns with minimal foot motion. There is another trade-off between tracking stability and turning ease (look at the side honing, not just rocker profile). I don't altogether understand the trade-off's involved in toe pick shape, but some high level jumpers say they use the entire toe pick - the force on take-off and landing for high jumpers can be enough to penetrate deep into the ice. With my itsy bitsy jumps, I never get beyond the drag (first) tooth.

It shouldn't surprise you that no one shape makes everyone happiest. Perhaps a blade manufacturer would say that if you try all their blades, you will find one that makes you happy.

Several different pros have told me that there is a significant variation in MK and Wilson blades, from blade to blade, as shipped from the factory, because the machining tolerances are fairly high.

The manufacturer of MK and Wilson blades doesn't like to answer questions or provide technical data on profiles or side honing. So I wonder if the Pattern 99 and Phantom profiles shown on the Paramount website were taken from one sample, and are not correct on average.

For example, there was a page on the Wilson site that gave very different spin rockers for Wilson and MK blades than those on the Paramount page, and which did not include a flattened tail on the MK profile (though it didn't mention specific blades). I can't find that page at the moment.

In any event, several pros have told me that they routinely reshape the profiles of new blades to what they think they should be, either in general, or for a given skater.

I hope you give your new blades a few weeks chance before making major changes.

[ls99]

Following up on my original question of: what are the specific differences between MK Double Stars and Professionals:

I had asked MK to provide specific differences between the two mentioned blades. To this date they had not responded with any useful answer, with the exception of a pretty color PDF sales brochure with glowing precise generalities, ie. fluff.

As luck would have it I was able to buy a well used, but not abused pair of used Jackson Ultra EXT freestyles at a very reasonable price.

Doing some comparisons I found the following, after dismounting the Double Stars.

First, I compared the actual blade curves to those shown in the advertisments.  They do not match. The advertisments show a change in radius from the 7' at about 3" from the bottom toe pick to a sharper, likely 17" radius, Thus providing what I assume to be a "sweet spot".  On the dismounted blades there was only a continuous 7' curve.

An acoustic test of hanging the blade on a hook and tapping it with a metal bar provided a ring but of fairly low pitch. Thus likely not a well tempered steel.

When using a hand grind stone designed for refreshing the radius of hollow, it was easy grind off lots metal, the metal clogging the grind stone. Further indicating very soft metal. Unlikely that the edge was properly if at all tempered, regardless what their brochure said.  These blades had about 3mm of edge left below the chrome.

Doing the same tests as above on the Ultra EXTs yielded a very high pitch ring, indicating a good temper. As they arrived they needed sharpening. Applying the same hand grind stone to the radius of hollow required a lot of pressure to get any metal ground off. Very little metal came off on each pass, again indicating a well tempered blade. The guy who finally sharpened them on a professional machine agreed they were very well tempered and will hold their edge well, far better than the double stars.

No actual Rockwell hardness test was performed, I don't have the facilities.

The blade curve radii came out somewhere between the Phantom and Gold
Seals.


Thus my admittedly unscientific testing concludes that the MK factory starts off making blades, then during quality control, the ones that do not meet the Professional criteria, get called and stamped single star or double star depending on how far they deviate from the "standard".

Of course I realize that MK will likely disagree with this conclusion.

After test mounting the EXT, skating around for a few hours, adjusting, (rinse repeat) then final locking them in place.

I like them. I'm not a better skater. But there are some observable differences as noted by others viewing.
 
Objective improvement immediately obvious: They glide a much longer distance for equal effort stroke. Also given that they have a proper curve radius change I can do outside three turns consistently.
One instructor took the time to stop me while doing outside figure eights to tell me how good they look.

Note: I am not a student of any instructor, they just take delight in watching me progress and/or make a fool of myself. To me it is all playtime, and fun experimentation.

[Sk8tmum]

Curious about your comparisons to the manufacturer's specs: is it not likely that new blades out of the box, as compared to ones that have been used and/or sharpened, will be closer to manufacturers specs?

I'm a geek - and I've checked out Gold Seals on different skaters after I noticed that my skater's Seals had a more apparent rocker than others.  It seems that it's a sharpener issue. Also, some sharpeners will adjust the pick "groove?" as the blade wears down. So, an older blade that has had post-casting sharpenings could vary easily from what was initially cast.

[AgnesNitt]

I just wanted to say I got new blades of the same model and it's a learning experience. I have no idea how hard it will be if I switch to a blade with a different rocker.

[ls99]

Curious about your comparisons to the manufacturer's specs: is it not likely that new blades out of the box, as compared to ones that have been used and/or sharpened, will be closer to manufacturers specs?

To avert mis-understanding, I did not compare any skates to manufacturer's specs, as none is available to mere mortals.


Specs would include all dimensions for a particular size, the material composition of which they are made, the number of millimeters from the skating surface hardened, the Rockwell or other hardness measure of the blade and of the tempered area, type of chrome used, mounting hole position pattern, size etc......

What I did do with my MKs is to copy a published photo of MK Double Star picture, then using some simple enlargement on a copier made it the same size as my size 11s. All proportions were correct from toe picks to tail profile.

Printed the photo and compared the tracings of my skates to the print. My skates had about 1mm used from from sharpening. That amount is not enough to alter the factory curve significantly.  The long part of the radius matched the photo, the short part tighter radius near the toe picks shown on the photo does not exist on mine.   It was never profiled. To have that tighter radius would have required additional grinding/profiling at the factory.

Can not blame it on sharpeners, as there is more material on the skates then need be. They can take away metal but not add.

It is possible for sharpeners to alter the profile, hopefully they do it with some template.

On my used EXT just bought, I did remove some material (about 1.4 mm) from the lowest pick, to compensate for the 2.2 mm wear of the skating surface from many sharpenings. This brought the toepick into the same proportion to the skating surface as when it was new.  Whoever had them before me, their sharpener never touched the toepick.

As for the blade tempering bit: Hardened (tempered) steel should never clog a grinding stone, my MK's radius of hollow when ground with a hand grinding stone smeared like dough.  Very ungood, hence the need for frequent sharpenings.

Wear of blades is to some extent depends on the skater'w weight. A 60 lb skater's blades should last a lot longer then one like me at  173 lb. Don't feel like doing the arithmetic, but would guess that my weight on a 2 to 3 millimeter square area of the skate in contact with the ice translates to several thousand pounds force per square feet. That is at standstill. Coming to a T stop from a nice fast forward speed the force is magnified, a lot.

By the way the same forces are present on ballroom dancers' heels wearing stilettos.

[Query]

The Manufacturer's catalog I tested significantly modified blade shape by camera perspective. MK and Wilson blades with factory ground shapes vary significantly from blade to blade. MK sold a few profile templates of an old blade design, which are treasured possessions. No major manufacturer does now, or publishes manufacturer specs. Perhaps there are design patents?

Small profile variations are probably less important than practice frequency and coaching.

Fully hardened steel blades would shatter and rust too easily, due to brittleness and composition. (They also couldn't take as sharp an edge, which matters to some.)

Two experts I've talked to say sharpening machine grinding wheels don't clog if you treat them right.