Etiquette for conflicting advice from coach

[Janie]

I hope this isn't something that's already been discussed before. I tried searching and I read through the whole discussion on the Etiquette FAQ AgnesNitt posted (thank you it's very helpful!), but nothing I came across really answered my question.

So the question is, what do you do when the advice that your coach gives you is different from the advice you've heard from other places (eg. this forum)? This is happening to me right now in two interconnected respects.

1. Per suggestion from every nice and helpful people here, I'll probably be getting new skates soon. From what I can gather from this comparison and what I've read on this forum, I think I need to get something along a Jackson Competitor or Premier. (I'm working on Lutz jumps now)
However, when I asked my coach, she said probably the next level up from my current boots. Since the current ones are GAM Horizon, the next level up is Jackson Classique or Freestyle. I mentioned that comparison webpage and asked if I'd actually need something higher up like Premiers, I don't want to have to need to buy better boots in another six months, but she said she doesn't want the boots to be too stiff for me, which I understand is entirely true too! She later said she'll do a little research and look at her own comparison she'd constructed on what she thinks is suitable and get back to me, so this suggestion isn't yet final.***
But what do I do if she still tells me to get Freestyle but everything else I see tells me to get Premiers? I don't really trust my own research that much either (I don't want to overboot!), and besides, I don't want to be like, oh thanks for your advice, but I'm not going to go with it!
I guess this could be somewhat solved if I just go to a professional fitter and see what they say. But...

2. Second situation is part of the first one. She also told me to talk to our rink's pro shop guy first, see what he suggests, then discuss it more with her. However, the few people that I've asked around at the rink (when I needed to sharpen blades) have strongly told me to not go to the pro shop guy! But coach says she's always gone to him and buys her skates there too!

So now I don't know what to do. I feel like I should trust my coach's advice since she's the professional, but I see/hear conflicting things and am confused. But I don't know how I would handle not following her advice either, if I were to do that. Any suggestions?


***Edit:
Sorry to be babbling on here, but I just read this thread, and it seems like maybe Freestyles are more suitable (I'm 5'6" and 117 lb). I won't go off-topic on that now. This doesn't change my question of what to do when getting conflicting advice - I still don't know what I should do about going to the pro-shop guy or not.

[jjane45]

We are working on the same jumps. I am 5'1" and you can guess my weight from the videos I posted   I did not have a private coach when I got my boots, and went solely by the pro shop fitter's suggestions and researching the forums. To my benefit, the pro shop was the best one in Chicago area. They told me if I bought new boots, go with Jackson competitor/premier, if used, elite or elite plus (!!!). I ended up with a pair of used Jackson competitor in good condition plus Coronation Ace blades. My previous boots, Jackson classique with stock blades, were really broken down and he guessed I skated "tough". Previous pair lasted me from bunny hop to beginner flip, I'd say classique is too low for you.

I think it's totally OK to go by a reputable pro shop's opinion. After all, they are the professionals. Which pro shop do people recommend if they say don't go to the rink's one? Remember to show them your current boots and tell them how much you skate / what do you work on. Just let your coach know what the pro shop recommends AND show her the Jackson chart. With adult skaters, I doubt coaches would really conflict the skater's desire unless the choice is REALLY WRONG.

[Sk8tmum]

a) I agree with your coach - actively dislike the Premier boots, and I have heard a significant amount of complaints about them from many many skater in terms that they are overly stiff.
b) Our coaches would agree with your coaches.
c) You shouldn't listen to me anyways.  I can't see you skate, I don't know your body mechanics, and I don't know your coaches methodology.

If you trust your coach, which you should, then, you should take his/her boot recommendations.  I will also state upfront that I am also (along with our coaches) a very strong proponent of underbooting. A less stiff boot allows you to have a deep knee flex, and help prevent hip and knee problems from jarring landings.  Our kid lands triples in a boot rated for doubles on smallish-skaters ... yet is nearly 6 feet and weights 150 pounds.  And, you know, we don't break down boots any faster than the kids in the stiff ones, as the landing is supported by the skater not the boot! If your coach coaches to a technique that is faciliated by soft boots, as our coaches do - that's a factor.

Now, if you need some kind of in-house check: does your coach have many students, are they well booted, and do they jump and spin well? Are they following her recommendations?  I am intrigued .. I more often hear about coaches OVER booting than underbooting!

[Janie]

Oops sorry Jane and Sk8tmum, I edited in at the end when you replied.

I think it's totally OK to go by a reputable pro shop's opinion. After all, they are the professionals. Which pro shop do people recommend if they say don't go to the rink's one?

Yes. Actually the one that Orianna in her skate buying adventures went to! Before I read that thread, I though that shop was the best. But now I'm a bit worried 

Now, if you need some kind of in-house check: does your coach have many students, are they well booted, and do they jump and spin well? Are they following her recommendations?  I am intrigued .. I more often hear about coaches OVER booting than underbooting!

I think she has quite a few, but I'm not familiar with any of them, and have no idea what boots they have (I have no clue by just looking at the skates on their feet like some people seem to be able to do). I guess my coach wouldn't overboot me since she knows I really don't want to spend too much money. I wouldn't say that she's underbooting me either though, like I said, I don't trust my own research all that much, and maybe Freestyles are more suitable!

[jjane45]

It does not hurt to still visit that pro shop for their opinion I guess.

I personally think freestyle is just your level without much room to grow... You seem very natural with jumps, where do you see yourself in terms of jumping a year from now?

[SynchKat]

You don't always have to trust what your coach says.  I think back to when I was coaching nd if people asked me about what boots to get I would have no clue and I would tell them to talk to the skate sellers. I was an expert in skating, specifically dance.  I could let someone know what skates I like and what I see others wear but I wouldn't be trained to give real advice on this boot or that.  I can tell you the difference between two typs of dance blades and how skating on one will feel compared to skating on the other but so much with skates is personal.  I have narrow feet so I love Wifa boots.  My Jacksons were super comfy but not a good boot.

So my rant aside I say talk to the skate shop guy and see what they recommend, they are the boot experts.  It is good to get advice from friends, coaches, etc. but ultimately it is up to you to try on the different boots and decide what feels best.

[sarahspins]

I personally think freestyle is just your level without much room to grow... You seem very natural with jumps, where do you see yourself in terms of jumping a year from now?

I agree with this.. I think Freestyles would be fine for you right now, but they may not be fine in a year or even less than that.  If you're okay with possibly replacing your skates again within a year, then I really see no problem with getting those, and I do think it may actually be better to err on the side of not quite enough for the future than way too much boot right now.  Considering the price of freestyles vs a higher level boot/blade I don't think it's a bad option either.

I think if you can try the premiere's on along with the freestyles and feel if the stiffness is too much, that would help a lot - if you can't easily bend your knee past your toes in the boots then they are most likely too stiff.  Being able to compare them at the same time would be even better.

BTW, in that linked thread, you'll notice I mentioned that I ordered a pair of Premiere's and I found for me, that they just weren't stiff enough.  I played around with them for a while, they were very comfortable for me right away, the only adjustment I had was getting used to different blades, but I worried I would break them down with continued use.  I ended up buying a pair of Elite Supremes in the 90 stiffness and I'm quite happy with those...despite being stiffer they are more comfortable and are breaking in much easier than my old Elite Plus did.

Any pro shop is only as good as the person you are dealing with.  My understanding is that there are quite a few pro shops in the area, so you have some room to shop around - some shops charge a fee for fitting but it's usually not much and is applied towards your purchase if you buy from them.

[hopskipjump]

I have read O's situation, and I have never had that experience.  We see Randall at USA Skates, he is wonderful with fittings and has great, solid advice.  He is and expert with sharpening and does beautiful artwork on skates.  They have a solid reputation locally.  It can't hurt to go in and let Randall know your concerns and worries and just see what he says about your skates.  You really should bring your skates along so he can look at the breakdown.

In the end, you aren't out anything but time if you decide to go elsewhere and there is a proshop across the street if you want to compare.  I've bought at both places, but I really like having one person only adjusting and sharpening skates and the one in the rink has a much larger staff because they do so much hockey business.  Our friends have a guy there and they have to call and make sure he is at that location. 

So nothing but positive experiences from both shops.

[jjane45]

Another thing... I remember it's your group coach pushing you on higher level jumps, while you work on test elements with private coach. Is she evaluating your booting needs based on the lesson contents with her or overall?

[Janie]

where do you see yourself in terms of jumping a year from now?

In a year? Solid axels!! (fingers crossed)
I'd love it if I'd be starting on doubles, but I have no idea how much more difficult they are, so that might be a bit of a reach. A girl can hope though.

I agree with this.. I think Freestyles would be fine for you right now, but they may not be fine in a year or even less than that.  If you're okay with possibly replacing your skates again within a year, then I really see no problem with getting those, and I do think it may actually be better to err on the side of not quite enough for the future than way too much boot right now.  Considering the price of freestyles vs a higher level boot/blade I don't think it's a bad option either.

I think if you can try the premiere's on along with the freestyles and feel if the stiffness is too much, that would help a lot - if you can't easily bend your knee past your toes in the boots then they are most likely too stiff.  Being able to compare them at the same time would be even better.

I really hope I will not be replacing skates again for at least a year and a half, better yet, not for another two years. I had not expected to be getting new skates now. But then, I don't want to overboot in too-stiff boots! But I will try both on if the shop has them.

BTW, in that linked thread, you'll notice I mentioned that I ordered a pair of Premiere's and I found for me, that they just weren't stiff enough.  I played around with them for a while, they were very comfortable for me right away, the only adjustment I had was getting used to different blades, but I worried I would break them down with continued use.  I ended up buying a pair of Elite Supremes in the 90 stiffness and I'm quite happy with those...despite being stiffer they are more comfortable and are breaking in much easier than my old Elite Plus did.

Yes I did notice that, but you also mentioned that you're pretty hard on skates. I don't know if I am yet, the only real leather skates I've had are the current GAM Horizons. Even though they're breaking down after only eight months, that could be because they are just too beginner level for me. I also never had any trouble breaking them in when I first had them, I don't think it even needed breaking in! (Which I was really surprised about, because I'd heard all these horror stories on how painful break-ins can be, and how hard leather boots are)

I have read O's situation, and I have never had that experience.  We see Randall at USA Skates, he is wonderful with fittings and has great, solid advice.  He is and expert with sharpening and does beautiful artwork on skates.  They have a solid reputation locally.  It can't hurt to go in and let Randall know your concerns and worries and just see what he says about your skates.  You really should bring your skates along so he can look at the breakdown.

Thanks a lot!! I feel much assured by this. I will definitely bring my current skates along.

Another thing... I remember it's your group coach pushing you on higher level jumps, while you work on test elements with private coach. Is she evaluating your booting needs based on the lesson contents with her or overall?

Hmm good question! I don't know the answer though. I would think overall, because she knows that I'm working on Lutz and she's helped me with my flip jump as well. She wanted to see my Lutz last week except we ran out of time (which is a good thing since the Lutz have disappeared after that one-day visit).

So my rant aside I say talk to the skate shop guy and see what they recommend, they are the boot experts.  It is good to get advice from friends, coaches, etc. but ultimately it is up to you to try on the different boots and decide what feels best.

So I guess here I come back to my main question. Should I believe rink gossip and go to USA Skates instead of our rink's pro shop? Or should I listen to coach and just go to the pro shop? If I do the former, then I don't know what to say to coach when she already assured me that the pro shop is perfectly fine. It's like she's giving me advice but I'm not taking it. Honestly, I prefer to go to USA Skates even though it's 1.5 hours drive away, because the pro shop guy is old and crabby and grumpy

[sarahspins]

If you have the time available to do it, I'd go talk to both pro shops and see what they each say  You could even call USA skates to see if they have the models in stock in the sizes you think you might need to try before making the drive.

Boots and even blades really come down to personal preference.. you are paying and you are free to get what you want, even when it's not what your coach suggests.  Even coaches often have brand bias for boots and blades, and it doesn't always mean that what they recommend is what is best for you, it's simply what they're most familiar with.  Some coaches are also not very well versed in the needs of adults vs kids.  Adults typically need a boot one level higher than what kids would need, simply because they are usually bigger/stronger, but that's not always true.

I just looked up the exact specs on the Horizon vs Freestyle and the freestyles are only slightly stiffer (45 vs 40).. I think you should be looking more at the Competitor (55).  The premiere (65) may be too much (and you'd have the added cost of blades in addition to boots), but I still think you should try all of them on if possible just to get a fair comparison.  You can test the bend of your knee over your toes to tell if they are too stiff (you won't be able to push your knees forward of your toes if they are).  You're not looking for an extreme position over your toes, just that the boots don't restrict your movement to the point where you can't bend at all.

[jjane45]

Nicely said, sarahspins! I couldn't have phrased it any better

when you talk to the pro shops, mention your jumping plans. and your current title is axelicious

[VAsk8r]

I've noticed the kids at our rink tend to be somewhat underbooted according to the Kinzie's Closet chart you referenced. We have a teen landing axels in Freestyles and a teen working on doubles in Competitors.

I'm working on lutzes and axels. I'm 5'4 and weigh 113 lbs. I started a thread here six months ago about my Jackson Freestyles breaking down too quickly -- and those responses inspired me to buy Premieres with Matrix Legacy blades. Later, I discovered the reason my Freestyles broke down so quickly was more than likely because they were a full size too long. I had no idea until an employee at a highly recommended pro shop (two hours from my home) measured my foot.

I don't regret my purchase. The break-in period was longer than it had been for my Freestyles, but I was doing everything I'd done before within three weeks. My coach had leaned more towards another pair of Freestyles, but ultimately she conceded that I am a "hard skater" and said, "It's your money." Another coach said, "Those blades will last you for years."

The one thing I will complain about with the Premieres is that the tongue goes straight across and then curves at the edges, and it really does dig into the sides of my right foot. I will probably be buying a gel sleeve to help with that.

I would, however, avoid ordering online since you are changing boots and possibly brand. Ordering online is how I ended up twice buying skates that were a full size too long. I really had no idea they were too long until the pro shop person measured me. Ask others in your club who they trust for boots and make a road trip if necessary.

[sarahspins]

I've noticed the kids at our rink tend to be somewhat underbooted according to the Kinzie's Closet chart you referenced. We have a teen landing axels in Freestyles and a teen working on doubles in Competitors.

I really think this is a regional thing (for example where I am most kids tend to be OVER booted and/or poorly fit by parents trying to pinch pennies), plus some of those kids may not have been underbooted when they got their boots, or it's possible that they have technique that supports using a slightly softer boot than average - it's hard to say.

I really do think it's best to have just as much as you need, rather than "more" just in case you need it later unless your skating style and past boots have shown that you actually do need more.

[turnip]

With boots, go with what suits you. For your level, Premiers wouldn't stop you progressing (I have them and although I'm 5'1" and very overweight, I'm only working on jumps up to loop and just started flip).

If you were getting boots designed for triples, then your coach should try and stop you, but at the end of the day, it's your money and your poor feet that would have to break them in! a friend who coaches has an adult with blades that are too high level for their skating, to the point where it impedes them, but coach just has to suck it up and work with what they have. And like I said, the Premiers should be fine for you.

At my rink most of the kids seem to be underbooted (one kid doing up to double axel in competitors, although she is small and light).

As an adult whos feet aren't going to grow, its can be worth going to the higher end of the suitable range.

When it comes to technique, coach is the main voice to listen to. But purchases are down to you.

[Skittl1321]

I'm another skater in Premiers.  I just passed my Bronze freeskate test, though my loop (and other jumps) is teeny-tiny.  I have no interest in doing any jumps higher than that.


I don't feel over booted at all.  I did have a break in period (though I think it was more a "getting used to" period since I switched boots and blades).  I really like the premiers- they are much more comfortable than my Competitors, which were the "old style" so those may be different now.  I am 5'0, and about 5 pounds overweight.

[Janie]

Thank you Sarahspins, what you said is very helpful. Thanks for even looking up the specs of the boots!

and your current title is axelicious

I know, I really like it I love your "Swizzle Royalty" too!

I started a thread here six months ago about my Jackson Freestyles breaking down too quickly -- and those responses inspired me to buy Premieres with Matrix Legacy blades. Later, I discovered the reason my Freestyles broke down so quickly was more than likely because they were a full size too long. I had no idea until an employee at a highly recommended pro shop (two hours from my home) measured my foot.

I think your thread was part of the reason why I thought Premiers might be good. I will definitely go to a pro shop to get fitted. No desire at all to buy online. I've seen enough problems buying skates even when they are fitted, I don't want to add more trouble!

When it comes to technique, coach is the main voice to listen to. But purchases are down to you.

True. But I just didn't want to seem rude to be blatantly ignoring coach's advice on buying skates.

I don't feel over booted at all.  I did have a break in period (though I think it was more a "getting used to" period since I switched boots and blades).  I really like the premiers- they are much more comfortable than my Competitors, which were the "old style" so those may be different now.

I think you were the other reason I considered Premiers! Also why I skipped over Competitors to Premiers even though they are a lot cheaper, because I've seen people (including you) saying that Premiers are much more comfortable.


Anyway, I think I will go with the suggestion that I go to both pro shops, make sure I try on Freestyle, Competitor and Premier, get a feel for them and see what the fitter says. It'll be at least three weeks later though, since I will be away on holiday. Thank you all for the advice!

[Query]

Based on my own limited experience, admittedly at a lower skating level than yours, trying on boots and looking for a snug comfortable fit should be the main criteria, as long as the boots provide adequate support.

Your coach doesn't wear your feet and doesn't know what fits you!

If you honestly tell your coach that her choice of boots won't fit your feet, and that something else a pro shop recommends fits you better, perhaps that will satisfy her.

(That said, some coaches are offended if you go against their advise.)

BTW, A lot of people find an overly stiff boot creates no major problems if the boot happens to fit their feet very well. They may need to wear Silipose or equivalent brand padding at the top to avoid blisters. (Exception: some ice dancers use full ankle range of motion, in all directions.)

[sarahonice]

Janie, I hope you'll keep us updated on your skate-buying process, because I think I'm going to be facing the same situation as you sooner than later and would love to know what you run across! Like you I'm wearing really basic recreational skates with a low stiffness rating (mine are Artistes, I think the number is 25) and I'm starting to think they're too soft to provide the necessary support. I'm lacing tighter and tighter, too, and the last time I skated I was actually shocked when I took them off and found my landing foot was actually in pain (couldn't feel it in the boot) and cramped. I'm also unsure whether I'd be better off with Freestyles or skipping to the next skate up when buy my next pair of boots. I intend to ask the coach for her opinion, but I'll probably give a little more weight to the pro shop's advice.

[Doubletoe]

Not all coaches are boot experts, and what used to be true of certain brands and models of boots--or the fitters who fit them--may not remain true over the years.  It's your money, so I agree with getting a second opinion from USA Skates (I think Randall is the one people all recommend there?).  Also, I'd go with the less stiff boot, all other things being equal.  Since you are in So.Cal, you have the advantage of just being able to drop them off at Willie's overnight and getting them reinforced with another layer of leather when they start breaking down.  It's something like $50.

[Janie]

I will come back and "show off" new skates once I have them Might be a while though, I'm going on holiday! Yay!
Sarah, you seem to be in more need of getting new skates than I do! I've never had pain or cramp problems in my foot. Please let me know what advice your coach gives! And your fitter, if you go before I do.

Since you are in So.Cal, you have the advantage of just being able to drop them off at Willie's overnight and getting them reinforced with another layer of leather when they start breaking down.  It's something like $50.

Can you tell me who/what/whereabouts this Willie is? I didn't know you could reinforce boots with another layer of leather like that!

[Doubletoe]

I will come back and "show off" new skates once I have them Might be a while though, I'm going on holiday! Yay!
Sarah, you seem to be in more need of getting new skates than I do! I've never had pain or cramp problems in my foot. Please let me know what advice your coach gives! And your fitter, if you go before I do.
Can you tell me who/what/whereabouts this Willie is? I didn't know you could reinforce boots with another layer of leather like that!

Yep!  And they are as good at it as the skate boot manufacturers themselves!  I've had two boots rebuilt at Willie's, and when you walk in, you'll see signed, framed photos of all the skaters they've rebuilt boots for over the past 30 years!   Don't be put off by the fact that they don't advertise their figure skate specialty; it just isn't something the average person is looking for, so that's all word-of-mouth.  Here's their new website:  http://www.williesshoeservice.com/index.html and please note their new location is on LaBrea.  It's updated on the home page, but not on some of the other pages.  Phone no. is 323-463-5011.

[Janie]

Oh wow, thank you Doubletoe! Very useful info!

[FigureSpins]

Great resource, doubletoe - thanks for the posting the info.

The OP's current Gam Horizons have a PVC upper and sole, so I don't think any shop will do a rebuild on these particular skates. 
However, if she buys all-leather skates, it's definitely an option for the future.

I've had skates rebuilt in the past and found that they "take a little off the top" of the boot to open the inner/outer layers.
If you have leather skates that are already low-cut, such as dance boots, you may not like the feel of the rebuilt skates.

When I skated, skates could only be rebuilt twice - C&L wouldn't do a third rebuild.  To be honest, after the second rebuild, they always felt like different skates and it never seemed to last as long as the original skates, I guess because it doesn't stiffen the inner/outer layers of leather or because it made them more low-cut so I had less ankle support.  Typically, second rebuild skates would become patch boots because of the lack of support, even after a rebuild.

[RinkGuard]

I was on my fourth pair of boots before I felt I had enough boot knowledge to make informed decisions on my own. None of my coaches have made advice about my boots primarily because I don't jump and I'm sensible about not overbooting and they knew the skate tech I went to and trusted his judgement.

I just want to point out that what people on skatingforums post is based on their opinion and their experience with boots. I only rarely see coaches posting on these topics. Other skater's opinions are of interest, but they haven't seen you skate. Maybe you should go back to your coach, who has seen your skating, and say, "Here's some other options I've been thinking about. Can we talk about these options?"

just realize, no matter what boot you buy, it will more than likely have some problem or other.