adult track test equivalents in standard track?

[jjane45]

What are pre bronze and bronze freestyle tests equivalent of in the standard track? Like maybe preliminary and pre juvenile? Is there a comparison chart somewhere? Thank you in advance

[Skittl1321]

Roughly prepre and preliminary, though the standard track tests are definetly harder.

[jjane45]

Thank you very much. I am not testing standard track (no way), just curious about how they convert. So is it correct that for freestyle,

pre-pre ~ prebronze
prelim ~ bronze
prejuv ~ silver
juv ~ gold

then the tracks merge at intermediate?

Moves in the field conversion seems to be more of a mix and match...

[techskater]

Yes, however if you are testing standard track MIF, you have to be "one up" to take the FS test

[sarahspins]

They are "roughly" equivalent, but the adult FS tests are much less demanding than their standard track counterparts.

I don't think honestly with the way they currently are that the adult MITF tests are "easier", at best they are slightly restructured.  The moves tests actually all have at least one element from a higher level test - that technically makes them harder than standard track (though they are arranged in a way that may make them easier for some adults to test).  However on the flip side, when you finish the adult moves and go on to test intermediate moves, you've already tested two of those patterns, so it makes that test slightly easier to train for, in comparison, because you only have to learn 3 more patterns (and the passing standard is the same between gold and intermediate at 3.0 for each pattern, so it should not technically be judged to a higher standard).

I've opted to start over with adult track rather than stay with standard track since I end up having to take the same number of tests to get to the same place - even though I took pre-pre in 1996 it doesn't put me at any advantage because you have to test one level higher in standard track to match the adult track tests (because of those moves borrowed from higher level tests).

[jjane45]

I don't think honestly with the way they currently are that the adult MITF tests are "easier", at best they are slightly restructured.  The moves tests actually all have at least one element from a higher level test - that technically makes them harder than standard track (though they are arranged in a way that may make them easier for some adults to test). 

I'm particularly interested in the last sentence. Why would the arrangement make it easier for some adults, if the elements include things from the higher level?

[phoenix]

^the passing standard is lower.

[tazsk8s]

^the passing standard is lower.

True as far as the numerical value required*. As far as what they are actually looking to see...my experience in testing (and being "invited to retry") Silver - twice - was quite different. There might have been a lower numerical passing value assigned to my cross strokes than the standard track, but what the judges were expecting to see was, based on the comments, pretty close to the same as the standard track. It doesn't seem like there are enough adults testing Silver in my area for the judges to have any consistent expectations on what an "adult" standard should look like, so we pretty much get judged at the kids' standard anyway. At that point, I might as well just test standard track.

*and then there's the paradox of Silver moves that formerly had the pre-pre spirals and now the prelim spirals...either way you theoretically have to do them to a higher standard than on standard.  Ugh.  For me that's by far one of the hardest moves on prelim, doesn't help that I hate to practice spirals in general, so just getting it *to* a prelim standard is enough of a challenge. To get them above prelim standard...probably not gonna ever happen for me.

[sarahspins]

^the passing standard is lower.

Sort of, I guess, but this only applies to things taken from a higher level, not lower, but really the difference is some things that are especially difficult for adults are left out... or delayed in the case of the silver/prelim spiral pattern, but because of the passing standard being higher for silver than preliminary, even that is a bit of a catch-22.

Back power 3's from juvenile for example are one thing I am very glad is NOT on any of the adult tests.. my coach makes me work on them but I hate doing them and I would dread having to test those more than any other move I've worked on... and for me it's not doing either direction that is the problem, it's going from doing one side to the other, because I get SO dizzy after the first set and the second side is a disaster.

[techskater]

(and the passing standard is the same between gold and intermediate at 3.0 for each pattern, so it should not technically be judged to a higher standard).

Actually, Intermediate passing standard is 3.2

[sarahspins]

Actually, Intermediate passing standard is 3.2

Not for adults.. and masters is down to 2.8 or something along those lines.  Not that in the "real world" it makes a huge difference, but the passing standards ARE lower for adults doing standard track tests.

[techskater]

Only if you CHOOSE to take it on the adult track.  I took and passed Intermediate on standard track and will take Novice, etc on standard track (not adult or masters track) because it IS possible to generate the power required by an adult to pass on the standard track

[sarahspins]

Only if you CHOOSE to take it on the adult track.  I took and passed Intermediate on standard track and will take Novice, etc on standard track (not adult or masters track) because it IS possible to generate the power required by an adult to pass on the standard track

Okay I'm not arguing that AT ALL, but my point was still that if you CHOOSE to take it at the adult standard (which I would imagine is inferred when we are discussing moving on to the intermediate moves test following completion of the adult track moves), the passing standard is in fact the same.  I don't understand why you are arguing with me on this one.  I wasn't exactly wrong, given the context. 

I think it's great if you want to make a choice to test those moves at the standard track passing standard, but at least adults do have the option not to. HOWEVER, as I stated before, with the current judging system and the way most tests seem to be judged, testing standard vs. adult may not matter since judges who aren't familiar with adults testing will likely just judge everyone to the same standard anyways, so makes little difference.

[jjane45]

Thank you for the great discussions, very informative to a newbie tester  To be honest, being an adult onset skater I truly appreciate all the bonuses TPTB gives to adult skaters!!!!!

Sarahspins and tazsk8s, sorry to hear judges in your area do not know how to apply those rules appropriately, does it make you feel better that Chicago is known to have one of the lowest passing rates?...

[blue111moon]

I know I've said this before, but I think it bears repeating:

Part of the USFS judges' training process (trial judging) requires the judge to establish, through repeated observation (trial judging) a personal scale of marking each element on a test.  The judge has ONE standard - she/he eventally knows what crossover or a spiral or a jump SHOULD look like.  The marking system then rates those elements by the level.  On the 6.0 scale which is still used for tests, a 3.0 is AVERAGE.  To a judge, that means that the skater did the element okay, or met the expectations.  The judge knows what a 3.0 "looks like" to him/her and marks what the skater does according to that mental standard, regardless of the skater's age. 

The difference between the Adult tests and the Standard tracks doesn't require the judges to adjust their mental standards of the elements; it just allows a skater to pass with a slightly lower mark.  As one National judge told me, "A salchow is a salchow is a salchow, no matter who's doing it."  The elements get harder as the levels go up but the judges' mental image of each element remains constant.

[jjane45]

Sorry, I did not mean to offend. Question though: how do judges tell what is a 3.2 spiral sequence vs. 3.5 spiral sequence using the same mental image? How much is 0.1 increment? Judging is hard work!

[blue111moon]

That I don't know, Jane.  I'm not a judge myself; I'm an accountant and my club's test chair (as well as a skater) so I spend a lot of time with judges.  I trial judged myself for a few years but never went for an appointment.  It was too hard for me. 

Many of the judges are very willing to talk to skaters and coaches in general terms about what they look for at a given level and give advice on how you can improve.  Generally, they're very nice people - and are in the sport for the love of it.  Some, of course, are more adult-friendly than others.  But then, judges are individuals, too, and not some gigantic many-bodied organism with only one brain between them. 

[tazsk8s]

Sarahspins and tazsk8s, sorry to hear judges in your area do not know how to apply those rules appropriately, does it make you feel better that Chicago is known to have one of the lowest passing rates?...

I'm Chicago-burbs too, so take that for whatever its' worth. 

[sarahspins]

Sarahspins and tazsk8s, sorry to hear judges in your area do not know how to apply those rules appropriately

I didn't say that was necessarily the case where I am.. I am extremely lucky that we have several adult skaters who are judges (including the one who will be doing my upcoming tests) who do have a better understanding of how they are meant to be scored... but in a test session you don't always know what you're going to get on the panel.

My coach wants me over prepared for my tests so that even if there was a concern about how the judges are judging, it wouldn't matter.. she says she wants the judges to be impressed.  I told her this was silly since I skate with my judge and she knows what I can do, but I think because those scores and comments go down on paper, my coach just wants to earn some recognition as well.. but I know she's also looking towards the future and the next set of tests that I'll take, not just this week's

[jjane45]

...I think because those scores and comments go down on paper, my coach just wants to earn some recognition as well.. but I know she's also looking towards the future and the next set of tests that I'll take, not just this week's

It's always nice to be over-prepared than under-prepared. But sometimes one will have to struggle with perfectionist coaches a little bit: the skater has a decent chance already and it does not hurt to give it a try  the skater does not need to score perfectly or to impress, a long as s/he is comfortable,confident and having a good time.

Also it takes time to find out how the skater reacts to the pressure of tests as the elements become more difficult. I made coach concerned during the bronze MITF lesson right before test, he said I was "hyper" lol.

[techskater]

Sorry, I did not mean to offend. Question though: how do judges tell what is a 3.2 spiral sequence vs. 3.5 spiral sequence using the same mental image? How much is 0.1 increment? Judging is hard work!

  It depends on the judge.  If passing standard is 3.0 for example, and the move is better than what the judge has come to expect on a particular move, then the judge will probably give it a 3.1  and possibly if it's really good a 3.2.  If it is near the judge's expectation but not quite, the judge will give it a 2.9 and if it's really missing the mark a 2.8 or even 2.7.  It's rare to get much more or less than 1 or 2 tenths over or under on a particular move.  Each judge seems to have a hot button (extension, edge quality, carriage, flow, speed, power, etc) that can push a marginal move either way, which is why most coaches put emphasis on everything instead of *just* extension or *just* speed and why you see split panel tests (2 pass/1 retry or 1 pass/2 retry). 

[Skittl1321]

It seems, however, that if standard track passing standard is 3.0, the judge writes down 3.0 when it is what they have come to expect as passing.  If the adult track passing standard is 2.8, they still expect the same thing, they just write down a lower number.  There is no quantification of what it means to be .2 less than the requirement for standard track.  That is what is so frustrating about adult track.  It is a crap shoot for what the judges are looking for.

[jjane45]

There is no quantification of what it means to be .2 less than the requirement for standard track.  

ITA skittl, you phrased my question beautifully

On the other hand, having an adult track (with allegedly lower passing standard) is a gift. Adult skaters in lots of countries do not have this benefit at all.

[sarahspins]

is no quantification of what it means to be .2 less than the requirement for standard track.  That is what is so frustrating about adult track.  It is a crap shoot for what the judges are looking for.

Exactly.. the way it works now, with the lower passing averages, judges still only judge them at "passing" level.. so if an adult skater were to perform the moves 100% equally with a younger standard track skater, they are GOING to be scored lower on the same moves because that's how the test form is set up and it's what the judges are used to doing.. if a skill is performed at a 3.0 (when 3.0 is passing) for a standard test, that same move would be marked as a 2.8 on an adult test where 2.8 is passing, not because it's not as good, but simply because it's set up that way.

I guess what I've always imagined, is that either testing standard track or adult, the moves should be judged the same/fairly, it's just that the passing total is moved slightly lower for an adult.  So what might be right on the bubble for standard track and might get a retry would pass as an adult test... but that's not really how it works.

[Clarice]

I don't know.  I've certainly seen (and taken!) tests where it seemed to work that way.  On the other hand, on my last dance test I was given the passing marks for a standard test even though I had taken it as a Masters test.  So it really does vary by panel.  I've never really been fussed over it, though.  All that matters to me is whether or not the test passes, and if the panel intends for the test to pass they will assign marks that do that.