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On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: FigureSpins on July 13, 2017, 09:58:48 AM

Title: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: FigureSpins on July 13, 2017, 09:58:48 AM
Jackson announced a new model today: the Debut.  It's rated up through Axel.

http://www.jacksonultima.com/en/Index.aspx?product=pLCdcjOtcln22rcKmyYpcg1A2B3C4D5E1A2B3C4D5E
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on July 13, 2017, 04:01:21 PM
Sexual discrimination lawsuit in the offing.  Women's boots come with Swarovski crystals, men's don't. 
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: skategeek on July 13, 2017, 04:05:52 PM
Jackson announced a new model today: the Debut.  It's rated up through Axel.

http://www.jacksonultima.com/en/Index.aspx?product=pLCdcjOtcln22rcKmyYpcg1A2B3C4D5E1A2B3C4D5E

And the Competitor (about the same support level) just disappeared from the Boot page (but is still on the Figure Skate page with the attached Aspire blade).  So I guess the Debut is meant to sort of replace the Competitor for people who want just the boot?  (I'm keeping an eye on this because that's probably about the level boot I'll be looking at when I eventually have to replace my Elles.)
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: davincisop on July 14, 2017, 08:17:32 AM
I feel like such a nerd saying this, but I'm a graphic designer/illustrator full time and who thought kerning this was a good idea..... the letters should connect....
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: skategeek on July 14, 2017, 08:51:54 AM
I feel like such a nerd saying this, but I'm a graphic designer/illustrator full time and who thought kerning this was a good idea..... the letters should connect....

I hadn't noticed initially because I didn't zoom in, but you're right.  Now that's going to drive me nuts.  The new D ebut!
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: FigureSpins on July 14, 2017, 10:05:21 AM
I feel like such a nerd saying this, but I'm a graphic designer/illustrator full time and who thought kerning this was a good idea..... the letters should connect....

I thought about you in late April - were your ears burning?  I used the new Microsoft font, Gabriola, for a exhibition program.  It drove me crazy - loved the font, but couldn't figure out how to get the swirls and swishes to behave.  The font shows different flourishes based on the actual letters and it doesn't kern nicely.  Two of skaters have a two-word last name (no hyphen.)  The mom proofread the document and said "You left out the space!"  I hadn't - for one skater, it looked fine, for the other, there was no gap.  Putting an extra space resolved it, but it was so frustrating!  In the titles, it added spaces I didn't want!  If it hadn't been the middle of the night, I would have asked for your help.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on July 14, 2017, 10:33:37 AM
I hadn't noticed initially because I didn't zoom in, but you're right.  Now that's going to drive me nuts.  The new D ebut!
This is part of a carefully planned rollout ... the next model will be the E ebut.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on August 16, 2017, 06:12:55 PM
This is what I will be getting to replace my current pair. They didn't have my size in stock today but will on Friday. It's a nice little boot and has a better quality feel to it than the Competitor imho. I liked the micro fiber a lot more than I thought I would. It has a nice feel to it.

I'll update this post with my first impressions once I've been able to try them on the ice.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: aussieskater on August 17, 2017, 07:21:53 AM
Hmm those Debuts look like really nice boots, but it seems they come only in 2 widths ("A-B" and "C-D"), which probably means they can't be semi-customed. (I need A or AA heel and E ball.)
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on August 17, 2017, 08:06:08 AM
Hmm those Debuts look like really nice boots, but it seems they come only in 2 widths ("A-B" and "C-D"), which probably means they can't be semi-customed. (I need A or AA heel and E ball.)
You shouldn't make that assumption.  The two listed widths are for stock boots.  Contact Jackson to see whether they will provide a semi-custom split width in the model you're interested in.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: davincisop on August 18, 2017, 03:46:32 PM
I thought about you in late April - were your ears burning?  I used the new Microsoft font, Gabriola, for a exhibition program.  It drove me crazy - loved the font, but couldn't figure out how to get the swirls and swishes to behave.  The font shows different flourishes based on the actual letters and it doesn't kern nicely.  Two of skaters have a two-word last name (no hyphen.)  The mom proofread the document and said "You left out the space!"  I hadn't - for one skater, it looked fine, for the other, there was no gap.  Putting an extra space resolved it, but it was so frustrating!  In the titles, it added spaces I didn't want!  If it hadn't been the middle of the night, I would have asked for your help.

Ah I just saw this, Figurespins! That's crazy haha. I hate when fonts don't work like you want them to. I know often a lot of fonts these days have opentype alternates (if it's a .otf, that's the big clue) and you can enable them in a menu bar, and there are sometimes options for alternate glyphs. Ideally the font is programmed that at the end of a word it subs the glyph that would allow it to look "finished" rather than one that would be a continuance, but that's always a toss up. :)
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on August 18, 2017, 04:12:21 PM
Hmm those Debuts look like really nice boots, but it seems they come only in 2 widths ("A-B" and "C-D"), which probably means they can't be semi-customed. (I need A or AA heel and E ball.)

They've only been out 2 months they are built around the new elite last so semi customs might be available. I got mine heat molded today and waiting for them to be mounted etc. The fit in the heel is snugger than the Competitor/Freestyle and they wrap around the instep much better. It's a really good improvement for those of us not quite ready for the higher end boots but have feet with "needs". I didn't think I'd look at Jackson again because their boots always look so clunky but these have a nice aesthetic to them once on the foot. The padding is really nice like a sneaker almost.

My fitter did say that Jackson is coming out with them next year with a thermo-plastic sole. I'm not sure if meant the lower level models that have plastic soles will now have this style boot or if the debut itself will have an Edea like sole. Considering one of Jackson's selling point is their soles aren't plastic I'm going to assume the lower end sets might be getting a makeover.

I'll update again once I've had some ice time with them. My current boot is a Reidell 910 Flair but I opted for the regular cut not the low cut this time.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on August 19, 2017, 05:42:32 AM
They've only been out 2 months they are built around the new elite last so semi customs might be available.
I just want to confirm this.  The Jackson website states that the Premiere is built on the Elite last; but there is no such statement for the Debut.  Did your boots come with a brochure that says it is?  The stock Elite last is split width, with the heel one width narrower than the ball; for some people with slightly narrow heels, this is sufficient to avoid semi-customs.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on August 19, 2017, 01:18:31 PM
It is my understanding that it is the same as the premier which is the same as the elite. They advertise them as elite features at a lower price. The Premiere and the Debut both have that same A/B and C/D sizing which is different from the Elite. I would have tried the Premieres but they would be too stiff for me.

It's definitely NOT the same last as the Competitors/Freestyle as I tried both side by side. The Debut has a much snugger heel and a better wrap around the instep and ankle.

I can't imagine they'd create a special last just for the Debut that is not the same as the Elite/Premiere or the Competitor/Freestyle. From a manufacturing standpoint, it doesn't make sense. Takes too long to develop a last that works. It is easy enough for them to grade it into other sizes though.

 I CAN see them having a last for the Elite/Premiere/Debut and then another for the lower-priced boot and blade sets. Also, they would want to have some kind of fit consistency across the line.

I pick them up today so I'll try to do a side by side comparison with the Freestyles that I have had (though they are 1/2 size bigger)

I will say this these boot manufacturers do make it difficult to understand what skate comes with what. If you just releasing a new boot you'd think they'd want to advertise a bit more.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Christy on August 19, 2017, 09:01:43 PM
I popped into a skate shop today and they had a pair on display. Maybe it's because I currently have the Ice Fly but I thought they were really heavy.  Chatting to the staff they said they'd had them a few weeks and so far the feedback hadn't been good, especially about the microfiber feel.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on August 20, 2017, 06:48:10 AM
I popped into a skate shop today and they had a pair on display. Maybe it's because I currently have the Ice Fly but I thought they were really heavy.  Chatting to the staff they said they'd had them a few weeks and so far the feedback hadn't been good, especially about the microfiber feel.
  <<Emphasis added>>

Could you please explain what you mean by "microfiber feel"?  Do you simply mean that people touching the boots in the store didn't like the way they felt?  Or do you mean that some skaters have actually purchased the boots and didn't like the way they handled during actual skating?
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Jenna on August 20, 2017, 07:11:55 AM
The microfiber lining definitely feels different.  I have Jackson Elites (the new 5200 version) and skate barefoot now, which I never did before.  The microfiber lining made my tights bunch and pull and I had to put my boots on at least twice before lacing to adjust my tights.  I had the same problem with my Edeas, which also has a microfiber lining.  I had clarino lining on my boots prior and prefer that lining. 
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on August 20, 2017, 12:52:50 PM
The microfiber upper definitely doesn't feel like traditional leather. It has a slightly rubbery/velvety feeling. I can see that people might feel it's "cheap".  It's not as bad as I expected. The waffle weave lining is very similar to a running shoe. I'm hoping the texture will help prevent slipping. Longevity wise I'm not sure if anyone really knows yet because they haven't been out for that long. I don't expect a $300 boot to last forever though. We will see if it's truly cut resistance shortly.

I think if you like a really traditional feeling boot this is not for you. If your wanting a really lightweight boot like the Edea this is also not for you. Weight wise mounted it comes in the same as both my Riedell 910LS and the Jackson Freestyles.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Christy on August 20, 2017, 10:36:21 PM
  <<Emphasis added>>

Could you please explain what you mean by "microfiber feel"?  Do you simply mean that people touching the boots in the store didn't like the way they felt?  Or do you mean that some skaters have actually purchased the boots and didn't like the way they handled during actual skating?

They weren't specific, but I thought they meant how they felt when skating. That said I did think the outer felt very odd, and I didn't like it, but that may have also been because they felt much heavier than I recalled my Elites feeling.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on August 21, 2017, 01:14:29 AM
A few weeks isn't long to get much feedback especially regarding the on ice experience. I'm starting my breaking in experience tomorrow.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: sampaguita on August 21, 2017, 01:28:27 AM
I'm gonna need a split-width Freestyle. I currently have a 4.5B, and though the heel is good, the ball is too narrow.

To those who have tried it: would a R-size Debut be enough for me, or do I have to go with split width as well?
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on August 21, 2017, 06:05:50 AM
A few weeks isn't long to get much feedback especially regarding the on ice experience. I'm starting my breaking in experience tomorrow.
Absolutely agree.  The real test is how well skaters like them after they've skated on them (which is why I asked for clarification on Christy's Post #14).  Although, if skaters are turned off by them for whatever reason upon casual inspection or handling in the shop, they won't buy them in the first place.  One skate pro told me that many of his teen girl customers (a large chunk of his figure skate clientele) shy away from Jacksons because they look clunky but are drawn to Edeas because they look so cool.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on August 21, 2017, 06:12:31 AM
I'm gonna need a split-width Freestyle. I currently have a 4.5B, and though the heel is good, the ball is too narrow.

To those who have tried it: would a R-size Debut be enough for me, or do I have to go with split width as well?
The best way to find out is to go to an authorized Jackson fitter, who will take measurements and tracings of your feet and send them off to Jackson.  They will then tell you whether the stock boot will do, or whether you need semi-customs.  Also, refer to previous Posts #11, 12, and 13; it's not clear (at least to me right now) what last the new Debut is built on.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Jenna on August 21, 2017, 09:08:04 AM
One skate pro told me that many of his teen girl customers (a large chunk of his figure skate clientele) shy away from Jacksons because they look clunky but are drawn to Edeas because they look so cool.

That's funny.  I never thought Jacksons looked clunkier than any other brand, but think that Edeas (the Piano, specifically) look far clunkier for whatever reason.  I totally see the appeal of Ice Flys for teens, though.  I want them as an adult and know how bad Edeas feel on my feet already.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: ChristyRN on August 21, 2017, 05:10:20 PM
I'm gonna need a split-width Freestyle. I currently have a 4.5B, and though the heel is good, the ball is too narrow.

To those who have tried it: would a R-size Debut be enough for me, or do I have to go with split width as well?

I think you have to go higher to get a split width. I had Competitors and had to go up to Premieres to get split width.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on August 21, 2017, 05:50:39 PM
I'm gonna need a split-width Freestyle. I currently have a 4.5B, and though the heel is good, the ball is too narrow.

To those who have tried it: would a R-size Debut be enough for me, or do I have to go with split width as well?

The Debuts have a narrower heel than the Competitors. I have previously worn the Freestyles and tried out the competitors before I settled on the debuts and it is a different fit. It depends on how much more snug you need the heels to be. For me, the difference in the fit was enough. Best bet is just to get a fitting, try and them and see how it goes.

Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on August 21, 2017, 05:59:25 PM
Absolutely agree.  The real test is how well skaters like them after they've skated on them (which is why I asked for clarification on Christy's Post #14).  Although, if skaters are turned off by them for whatever reason upon casual inspection or handling in the shop, they won't buy them in the first place.  One skate pro told me that many of his teen girl customers (a large chunk of his figure skate clientele) shy away from Jacksons because they look clunky but are drawn to Edeas because they look so cool.

I'm not a teenager but this was totally me. I swore I wouldn't consider Jacksons again because they looked like golf cleats. But I'm happy with how my foot looks in these. A little sleeker thanks to the wrap system.

One ice went well today no real issues from the boots. Now, of course, I went down from a 10" blade to a 9 1/2" thanks to the heel height/foot pitch being higher than my Reidells and just a smaller size in general. The heel is slightly higher/has a different pitch compared to my older Freestyles.

I might shoot off a message to Jackson and see if I can get an answer on what last they are using. Either the elite, the one they use for the lower end sets or something new. It would be nice to know.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on August 28, 2017, 08:06:37 PM
Break in on the Debut has been very minimal and after 5-6 sessions on the ice I have forgotten they are new apart from not tying all the way to the top. Upper seems cut resistant in what would have been large gouges in my other boots are just small thin cuts.

In general, I'm pretty pleased with the switch.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Query on August 29, 2017, 12:57:15 PM
One skate pro told me that many of his teen girl customers (a large chunk of his figure skate clientele) shy away from Jacksons because they look clunky but are drawn to Edeas because they look so cool.

Does "clunky" just mean it is wider at the toe? In which case, it might appeal to girls with wide toes? And that "cool" means narrow-toed - comfortable to some people, painful to others? And/Or does "clunky" mean heavy?

Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: FigureSpins on August 29, 2017, 02:09:44 PM
Break in on the Debut has been very minimal and after 5-6 sessions on the ice I have forgotten they are new apart from not tying all the way to the top. Upper seems cut resistant in what would have been large gouges in my other boots are just small thin cuts.

In general, I'm pretty pleased with the switch.

Good to know. Do you have width or insole issues?
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on August 29, 2017, 07:10:43 PM
I THOUGHT I had insole issues until I switched. I was using Riedell R-Fit insoles with all the doodads but thus far I've been fine with the Jackson footbeds.I had been having unbearable arch pain on my left foot before. That has gone completely thus far.

I have a wide forefoot but I also have tapered toes so usually as long as a skate is heat molded for it's fine at the ball of the foot without punching anything out.

What I have had issues with is a higher instep which makes it harder to lace in that area and heels that slip. So far the better wrap system and the slightly narrower heel have solved that problem. For my instep, I can see that the Premiere or Elite might be even better but are too stiff for me at this point.

My assessment is it's a nice little boot for those in between needing a boot and blade set and needing a more "serious" boot.

Having worn the Freestyles in the past and having had tried on the Competitors at the same time my assessment is that it's a different fit/last with a slightly narrower heel but the same width at the ball.

Looks wise it's a big improvement on the Freestyle. My feet look a little sleeker and the reinforcement adds a visual reference for me to help tie my skates to the right firmness as well as visually creating a contour.

The backstrap is a nice feature. Just a few rhinestones but along with the reflective piping, it has a nice shimmer on the ice. If Jackson chooses to put this same feature on the lower level models I can see it being quite popular with the younger girls. I know we are supposed to pretend that we are in figure skating for the hard work, not the sparkles but a little but of well-placed bling never hurt anyone.


I'll try and remember to update this 6-12 months from now with how they lasted.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on August 29, 2017, 07:13:34 PM
Does "clunky" just mean it is wider at the toe? In which case, it might appeal to girls with wide toes? And that "cool" means narrow-toed - comfortable to some people, painful to others? And/Or does "clunky" mean heavy?

Some of the previous Jacksons like the Freestyle and the Competitor the outer boot didn't show any of the contours of the foot. So what little shape you might have had was lost even though they did accommodate this on the inside. I didn't think that I'd like going back to Jackson but even though I have a wide ball the rest of the boot is sleek. Proportions matter
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on August 30, 2017, 08:27:32 AM
Does "clunky" just mean it is wider at the toe? In which case, it might appeal to girls with wide toes? And that "cool" means narrow-toed - comfortable to some people, painful to others? And/Or does "clunky" mean heavy?
It's an issue of visual appeal taking priority over functional appeal.  Jacksons tend to be more anatomically conforming; in particular, a more rounded, rather than more pointed, toe.  Functionally, it should appeal to skaters with wide (or even normal) toes; but, visually, many are turned off.  Edeas not only have classic pointed toes, but their trendier models (such as the wildly popular Ice Fly) have sculpted cutouts and Swarovski crystal adornment.  The same skate pro also told me that the top selling line of blades in his shop were the Ultima Matrix series.  Because of superior engineering design, because of superior materials, because of better pricing?  No.  Because of all the pretty colors to choose from.

I remember a discussion I had back in the '80s with another skate pro.  At the time I was wearing Riedells, and I said I wished that Riedell would offer boots with rounded, instead of pointed, toes.  He told me that one company had come out with a line of anatomically conforming boots with square toes ... but skaters thought them too ugly, and they were yanked from the market right quick.

Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Query on August 30, 2017, 12:05:59 PM
Now that I think of it, a lot of skaters, especially women, pay a lot of attention to their other clothing, and are willing to pay a lot more for beautiful and unique clothing. Likewise, if I walk into a big shoe store, I see hundreds or thousands of wildly different models, many of which aren't particularly functional. It makes sense that Edea is running away with some of this market if they have a sleeker style.

I guess it just isn't something I tend to notice.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on September 12, 2017, 05:25:23 PM
Here is the response to the question I asked Jackson about whether the Debut was built on the Elite last or not.

"Little different from the Elite last but very similar. Fit and feel are appropriate for intermediate level with support for Axel/doubles"

Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on September 13, 2017, 04:38:32 PM
Here is the response to the question I asked Jackson about whether the Debut was built on the Elite last or not.

"Little different from the Elite last but very similar. Fit and feel are appropriate for intermediate level with support for Axel/doubles"
Thanks for posting this info.  Strange that Jackson would develop a new last, though.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on September 14, 2017, 12:38:32 AM
I'm thinking they'll probably use this last when they update the rest of their line and use it on the Freestyle/Mystique/Classique etc. They seem to be introducing new models from the top of the line on down. Makes sense they'd want to use the improved fit throughout the line.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on September 14, 2017, 05:08:02 AM
I'm thinking they'll probably use this last when they update the rest of their line and use it on the Freestyle/Mystique/Classique etc. They seem to be introducing new models from the top of the line on down. Makes sense they'd want to use the improved fit throughout the line.
As Mr. Spock would say, "That's logical."  ;)
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on November 24, 2017, 01:39:39 AM
http://www.jacksonultima.com/en/Index.aspx?product=s2nD2KbHsLJab0w/IzvOtg1A2B3C4D5E1A2B3C4D5E

Well, I guess they released their new sole. Mimicking the look of the Avanta
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on November 24, 2017, 01:41:38 AM
Looks like they designed the Freestyle as well.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on November 24, 2017, 07:23:15 AM
Looks like they designed the Freestyle as well.

This is bizarre.  The Debuts are listed as "Competitive" models, sold as a boot only.  There's a new model Freestyle Fusion and a new model Elle Fusion.  Both are listed as "Recreational" models (a lower grade than Competitive), sold as a kit with pre-mounted blades.  Yet the Freestyle Fusion and Elle Fusion are both listed as being built on the Elite last (used on the top of the line Jacksons), not on the new Debut last that you discussed in a previous post for intermediate level boots.  Mr. Spock would say, "That's not logical."
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Sibelius on November 24, 2017, 12:26:09 PM
I posted on this a couple of days ago.  I'm not sure what they're doing.  2 different Debut stiffnesses, (the original Debut was deemed way too stiff for my skater).  The Debut std. firm is the same number as the Freestyle now.  They seem all over the map.  Not sure about the aesthetics of the Fusion sole, and that of the Freestyle/Elle Fusion boots.  My skater says they look clunky, whereas the Debut, except for that font issue someone mentioned, look nice.

We'll probably just go with the original Freestyle and swap out the blade.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: AgnesNitt on November 24, 2017, 12:47:39 PM
And aren't they microfiber?

How does that last with hard wear?
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Sibelius on November 24, 2017, 01:04:08 PM
I've yet to see them in the wild.  My daughter has the leather Elle, and it's pretty cut up as it is after 7 months.  Depending on what her coaches and her fitter say we might give it a go. I'm all in for the lighter weight if it's significant.  Maybe I can convince the fitter to order a sample boot in her size!  Except for that gray sole...
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on November 24, 2017, 02:06:37 PM
I would have liked the lighter stiffness. I can't really comment on how well the microfiber wears since I've only had them since August (regular sole) but they seem to be fairly cut resistant. The initial break-in was fast in terms of comfort but I would have liked if the tongue had softened up more.

I'm guessing this sole is what my fitter was talking about when he said they were coming out with an injection moulded sole.

I do think this will be successful for them at least in the short term. Because it mimics some of the aesthetic qualities of the Ice Fly but at a stiffness and price that is more appropriate for some of the lower level skaters that want them. Mainly talking about the young girls that are attracted to the rhinestones and silver heel.

I'm fairly happy with the fit and my skating has improved light years since I switched. I went from not being able to pass Pre-Alpha for about 18 months to be able to hold hip level spirals for the length of the rink as well as working on mohawks and 3 turns and stuff within 4 months. But that's because it fits rather than any magical boot quality. I feel much more of a connection to my blade.

Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Sibelius on November 24, 2017, 02:39:35 PM
I sent off an inquiry to Jackson about whether it's really closer to the Freestyle in stiffness.  That's where we should be next.  She hasn't broken her Elle's down yet, but they won't fit much longer.  She's little so the lighter weight would benefit.  Also don't really want to buy the Freestyle kit since she's moved on to an intermediate freestyle blade.

I suspect we'll have to order a Debut, a Freestyle (original) and Freestyle Fusion to see what fits best.  Unfortunately we'll have to pay restocking and shipping on all of them that don't work.  I really hope I can avoid that cost, might as well go with SP Teri or Harlick at that point.  We'll see what we can do when her fitter gets back.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: davincisop on November 24, 2017, 03:04:14 PM
RE: The font they used. My friend is friends with Mark Ladwig, I wonder if I could somehow get a memo to the higher ups and maybe see if they'd let me do some custom calligraphy for the boot so it doesn't have that ugly stock font and horrible spacing.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Sibelius on November 24, 2017, 03:47:59 PM
It's not too bad on the Fusion Freestyle or the Elle (the E is a little over the top), but yeah, that space between the D and e really jumps out.  I didn't pay attention to the actual boot when I saw it in the shop.  Kind of nit picky I suppose, but noticeable in the photos.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on November 24, 2017, 06:02:15 PM
RE: The font they used. My friend is friends with Mark Ladwig, I wonder if I could somehow get a memo to the higher ups and maybe see if they'd let me do some custom calligraphy for the boot so it doesn't have that ugly stock font and horrible spacing.
Do you think skaters will shy away from the Debut because they think, "Ewww!  That font stinks."?
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on November 24, 2017, 06:17:55 PM
And aren't they microfiber?

How does that last with hard wear?

Without knowing the composition of the microfiber, we can't tell what the wear characteristics are.  Not necessarily bad ... if it were Kevlar microfiber, e.g.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: davincisop on November 25, 2017, 09:40:34 AM
Do you think skaters will shy away from the Debut because they think, "Ewww!  That font stinks."?

no, but as someone that works with type for a living, it cheapens the look of the boot.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: AgnesNitt on November 25, 2017, 11:49:08 AM
Do you think skaters will shy away from the Debut because they think, "Ewww!  That font stinks."?

The problems with the AVATAR font (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVhlJNJopOQ)
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on November 25, 2017, 03:48:49 PM
no, but as someone that works with type for a living, it cheapens the look of the boot.
When I zoom in on the lettering [on the image on the Jackson website], I can see the outlines of impressions.  My guess is that a stamping operation is involved in the labelling, and any changes would involve retooling.  Unless they lose sales because of the aesthetics, I don't think they'll want to incur the costs.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: davincisop on November 25, 2017, 05:27:34 PM
From what it looked like on the website it’s embroidered. All the same it’s a minor thing in the grand scheme of things but bothers me because I look at type all day for a living and would never send a clients work out with such poor kerning.

Anyways, back to the discussion of the boot itself.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: eonice on December 14, 2017, 11:27:06 PM
Well, that was interesting. I ordered a pair online to replace my rotting Freestyles. I knew my size but decided not to take any chances and used the Jackson-specific charts which confirmed that my current size is correct. FAIL. So fail that my toes are being crushed in these things. At first I thought it was a difference in the padding...that maybe I need to heat mold them and break them in. But then I whipped out a tape measure and my mind was blown: the Debut sole is 1/4" shorter than the Freestyle at the same stamped boot size. Seriously? What the hell is this? I'll be making some calls tomorrow...
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Sibelius on December 15, 2017, 10:37:35 AM
I looked at the blade size chart yesterday and for the Debut Fusion the recommended blade size is 1/4" smaller than for the other boots.  My skater would be in a 3 with an 8 1/4" blade in the Debut, but in the Elle and Freestyle it's 8 1/2 for the same size.

https://skaterslanding.com/pages/jackson-blade-size-chart
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on December 15, 2017, 12:50:18 PM
I looked at the blade size chart yesterday and for the Debut Fusion the recommended blade size is 1/4" smaller than for the other boots.  My skater would be in a 3 with an 8 1/4" blade in the Debut, but in the Elle and Freestyle it's 8 1/2 for the same size.

https://skaterslanding.com/pages/jackson-blade-size-chart
I wonder if the Debut has a higher heel pitch.  For the same size, a higher heel pitch would result in a shorter sole length.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Sibelius on December 15, 2017, 01:20:02 PM
Just by looking at the photos on the Jackson site I think you're right, the heel on the Debut Fusion looks steeper, as well as the one on the Freestyle Fusion, compared to the old Freestyle model.  Could just be the angle of photo though.  The other difference is the width, R(A/B) and W(B/C) as opposed to the old A, B, C.  Too many variables to order a new style boot online I would think.  I'm glad we have a good fitter.  Unfortunately she doesn't stock much so we'd have to pay shipping and restocking fees.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on December 15, 2017, 02:04:19 PM
I wonder if the Debut has a higher heel pitch.  For the same size, a higher heel pitch would result in a shorter sole length.

It does. They aren't just the Freestyles with a new sole it's a different last. I'm still adjusting a little to the higher heel since I was in Riedells before

At one point I was in the Freestyle and it's a snugger fit around the arch. I also tried the Competitor and Debut side by side and the Debut is a snugger fit. Which is what I needed.

Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Sibelius on December 15, 2017, 02:38:57 PM
I don't skate, so what does the higher heel mean for a skater?  Is it a drastic adjustment? I don't want my skater to be too thrown off at this stage, she'll be starting her Axel about the same time as she needs new skates.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on December 15, 2017, 05:17:59 PM
I don't skate, so what does the higher heel mean for a skater?  Is it a drastic adjustment? I don't want my skater to be too thrown off at this stage, she'll be starting her Axel about the same time as she needs new skates.
Someone else can address the effects on jumps, since I don't jump.  About 3 yrs ago, I changed from an old pair of Riedell Royals to a new pair of Jackson Elites, which has a much higher heel pitch.  The biggest difference for me was in skating backwards.  I would pitch up forwards near the picks.  To compensate, I had to lean strongly backward.  I mentioned that to two techs at the shop (they're also skaters and coaches); and they told me that's common.  Couldn't figure out why it didn't affect my forward moves, though, just the backward ones.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: FigureSpins on December 17, 2017, 03:35:50 PM
On spins, a higher heel puts the skater further forward on the 3-entrance to hook the spin, once the skater gets used to the balance point.  It also makes holding the "sweet spot" easier since it does pitch weight forward more, as tstop4me mentioned.  The skater doesn't have to consciously lift their heel to stay on that spot.  On jumps, it allows for faster "roll ups" to the toepick for edge jumps, and landings are balanced on the toepick without consciously pointing-and-flexing.  My own kids went from Riedell Bronze Medallions to Jackson Freestyles and the difference was great - you could see the difference.  (They were around 7 years old at the time.)

Higher heels rattle boys and men when they switch.  Some is just the stigma of "men wearing high heels is wrong." I'll not debate that-it's just superstition.

However, because human males have a higher center of gravity than females, changing to a higher heel affects their balance.  (That's also why boys struggle more with spirals and camels vs. girls.)  Balance exercises are critical for adult men to make the transition to a higher heel.  I don't know if the adjustment outweighs the heel benefits.  My suspicion is that men can just improve their balance and foot flex to get the same results the higher heel can bring.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on December 17, 2017, 05:35:24 PM
...

Higher heels rattle boys and men when they switch.  Some is just the stigma of "men wearing high heels is wrong." I'll not debate that-it's just superstition.

However, because human males have a higher center of gravity than females, changing to a higher heel affects their balance.  (That's also why boys struggle more with spirals and camels vs. girls.)  Balance exercises are critical for adult men to make the transition to a higher heel.  I don't know if the adjustment outweighs the heel benefits.  My suspicion is that men can just improve their balance and foot flex to get the same results the higher heel can bring.
Thanks for the more detailed explanation.  Do you have an explanation of why (at least for a guy) the higher-pitched heel initially has a pronounced effect on backward stroking, but not forward stroking?
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Query on December 17, 2017, 07:54:33 PM
Since people ask about high heels: When I, many, many moons ago, got high heels (about 2.25", if I recall right, but am not sure) on an Ice Dance boot (I was told by the dubiously competent fitter that Ice Dancers needed very high heels), it hurt so much it was virtually impossible to skate - had to send it back to the manufacturer to lower the heels. But I'm a guy, and my feet aren't very flexible. In particular, they can't point much. It also left me no flexibility room to point my foot even more, to initiate turns and such.

I've wondered whether I would be happier skating with a fully horizontal footbed. I love sandals like that, and I don't like much of a heel in shoes in general. But of course, walking isn't skating. Hockey and speed skaters often do it - but they aren't spinning, or doing the same types of jumps as figure skaters.

Phil of Harlick once told me that he had just custom fit a ballerina who wanted a flat horizintal footbed in her skates. She wanted them because that's the way most ballet slippers (excepting point shoes, I think) are designed. I have no idea whether the ballerina was pleased with her new skates.

Also, since people ask about men and balance: (Most) men have a substantially higher center of gravity than most women. I guess, that's because most men have wider and more massive shoulders than most women, and most women have wider hips than most men. (In addition, those of us who are heavier than we "should be" tend to have more of a "beer belly" if we are male, but put their fat a little lower, on average, if they are female.) That means that anything that pitches men's weight in one direction, is harder to compensate for. In particular, to be balanced if you are standing still ("static balance"), your center of gravity must be over your base of support. But that isn't completely true for a skater in motion, in part because the ice creates balancing forces on the boot.

There is a classic experiment: You stand about a foot (???) from a wall, legs straight, and lean against it with your forehead. Most women can come back to a standing pose without using their hands or arms, by using a little muscle. Most men physically can't. I may have the details a bit wrong. Also, it is going to depend a lot on your exact distribution of weight, and on the length of your feet (or shoes, I guess). But all the balance exercises in the world can't change the physics of that static balance problem.

What CAN change it is to bend your knees! That takes your center of gravity down, and back, until it is over part of your feet, and then you can be balanced again, with a little muscle use. As skaters, we are very often in better balance if we bend our knees fairly deeply.

So what does that have to do with a Jackson Debut boot? Very little. Nonetheless, if your feet can't point much, you should be cautious about very high heels, when ordering new boots.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Isk8NYC on December 17, 2017, 08:39:06 PM
Thanks for the more detailed explanation.  Do you have an explanation of why (at least for a guy) the higher-pitched heel initially has a pronounced effect on backward stroking, but not forward stroking?

You're asking for yourself, right?  I haven't seen that happen to any of my male skaters, buuuuut, I drill all my skaters on being upright while doing back crossovers and setting up jumps.  My guess would be that (without your awareness) you tended to lean forward when skating backward in your Riedells, and the higher heel on the Jacksons pushed you even more forward.  As a result, you were skating more on the front of the blade than before, maybe even a little hunch-backed.  What felt like "drastically sitting back" might have been the original desired posture.  You could compare videos of your skating before/after the boot change to confirm my guess. 

Just out of curiosity: did you change blades at the same time?  If that's the case, you just have to get used to the new gear and adjust your skating accordingly.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on December 17, 2017, 10:30:44 PM
You're asking for yourself, right?  I haven't seen that happen to any of my male skaters, buuuuut, I drill all my skaters on being upright while doing back crossovers and setting up jumps.  My guess would be that (without your awareness) you tended to lean forward when skating backward in your Riedells, and the higher heel on the Jacksons pushed you even more forward.  As a result, you were skating more on the front of the blade than before, maybe even a little hunch-backed.  What felt like "drastically sitting back" might have been the original desired posture.  You could compare videos of your skating before/after the boot change to confirm my guess. 

Just out of curiosity: did you change blades at the same time?  If that's the case, you just have to get used to the new gear and adjust your skating accordingly.
Hi, thanks for the response.  The blades were the same (Coronation Ace), but 1/2" shorter on the Jacksons than on the Riedells, due to different boot sizings.  I talked to two male skate techs at my pro shop (both were former elite competitors and former pro skaters, now coaches), and they both told me they had the same experience when switching over to boots with higher heel pitch.  I understand that the higher heel pitch would pitch you more forward and that you would have to lean backward more to compensate.  But I would have expected this to be true when stroking forward as well as stroking backward.  Whereas, I distinctly remember when I first hit the ice with the Jacksons, I noticed very little change when stroking forwards, but, when going backwards, it was "Whoa!  What's going on? Why am I practically skating tippy-toe?"  So I thought something was seriously out of wack, and went back to the pro shop, where the guys told me that was typical until I adjusted to the new heel pitch.  But never got a good explanation of why backwards but not forwards.  I was fine after two weeks (10 sessions); I'm just curious about the mechanics.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: FigureSpins on December 18, 2017, 10:30:15 AM
I've never seen you skate, so I can't tell you what your problem is/was with going forwards, backwards or sideways.  You'd have to look at videos of your skating to see what changed. You might have been gliding way back on the blade while going forward (to prevent tripping) and the heel height change just corrected that error.  It could also be that the old blades were mounted a little too far forward, so the short-blade mounting was more comfortable because it repositioned the rocker.  Maybe one set of blades wasn't aligned correctly.  New skates are stiff - backwards requires more knee bend than forwards.  I will say that it sounds like it's your particular situation, not necessarily a gender-wide issue that can be explained over the internet.  I notice blade length changes - I switched from one length to a shorter length (same boots/same blade model) and found that the rocker was too far forward for my taste.  It took a while to get my turns back in control.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Sibelius on December 18, 2017, 12:13:33 PM
Well, it sounds like there might be more +'s than -'s to trying the Debut Fusion when the time comes.  I hope that with this model turnover that Jackson will keep the line consistent for awhile, at least until she's ready for the next level boots.  It all seemed simple just a few weeks ago, from Elle's to Freestyles.  Now it seems like a bigger change coming up for her.  I guess there's really no optimal time to change boots, just have to get used to them.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on December 18, 2017, 02:55:56 PM
Pointe shoes are also completely flat but you use the strength of your foot to change the shape of the shoe (plus some modification hacks. Not sure you'd want completely flat and stiff skates like that.

Incidentally shopping for ballet slippers and pointe shoes is even worse than shopping for skates because they change the models ALL.THE.TIME just as soon as you find the perfect pair they will be discontinued.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Sibelius on December 18, 2017, 04:05:51 PM
Good to know about ballet shoes and pointe shoes, let's buy 2!  I had one skate mom tell me a year or so ago to be glad I didn't have a ballet dancer, pointe was pricey.  Well, now my skater is in her first year of ballet, she's a long way from pointe, but I have no doubt she'll get there.  She was in her first Nutcracker on Saturday, an amazing performance by her ballet school, live professional orchestra included.  Those young ladies (and gentleman) were phenomenal.  Looking forward her 3 other performances!  Never thought I'd be a skate dad, much less a ballet one, but here I am.  :'( :o ;D
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Query on December 18, 2017, 06:04:24 PM
How odd. Despite all this free publicity, I don't see anyone in this thread expressing an immediate intention to buy Debut boots.

Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on December 18, 2017, 06:18:25 PM
How odd. Despite all this free publicity, I don't see anyone in this thread expressing an immediate intention to buy Debut boots.
? Two posters have indicated that they have already purchased the Debuts. 
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Sibelius on December 18, 2017, 06:55:25 PM
How odd. Despite all this free publicity, I don't see anyone in this thread expressing an immediate intention to buy Debut boots.

Probably order in the next couple of weeks once we see them in the flesh (they just arrived) and work out what sole we can get.  Fitter says they might be order-able with the LCF or LCL soles she prefers instead of the grey.  If it's grey so be it, not too many options for my skater and when she says she needs new skates she needs them NOW!  From what I see vendors are selling off the old models they have in stock.  I see only one on-line vendor with the Debut Fusion available so far, all still seem to have Competitor boots on closeout.

I am surprised I haven't seen many out there, but when we looked at the previous non-fusion Debut model they were not in the right slot to replace the softer Freestyle (boot only) model so we went with a different boot at the time.  I talked to several coaches who thought they were much stiffer (closer to the Competitor) than Jackson was marketing them as. Hopefully Jackson has corrected that with the softer Debut Standard which is supposed to be comparable to the Freestyle stiffness rating, but we shall see.  Just my observations.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Query on December 20, 2017, 02:01:14 PM
Good to know about ballet shoes and pointe shoes, let's buy 2!

Wikipedia says pointe shoes only last 10-20 hours on the floor, so I assume many serious dancers buy more than two pair at once. I gather not all ballet is en pointe, but I can see how the costs could build up, even though they cost less than skates per pair.

I'm glad good figure skates last longer.

BTW, when I create documents, I like simple fonts like Ariel, Ariel Black, and Consolas, because I find them easy to read, and it is easy to distinguish between similar glyphs like 0 and O, 1 and l, and 2 and Z, in all of those. But skate typography wouldn't stop me if I wanted the skates: most of us don't notice it much if at all when we watch a skating performance. I have no trouble reading the logo on the Debut boots. But... many kids now don't learn script in school. Could that make any script font in advertising media counterproductive?
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on December 20, 2017, 09:22:10 PM
? Two posters have indicated that they have already purchased the Debuts.

I've been skating in them since early August but with the original LCF sole since that's what it was offering at first. I am perfectly happy in them though I wish the slightly lighter rating had been available when I got them since they might be a little stiff for me.

Previously I'd broken down 2 Riedells in a year. The 229 and the 910LS so I'm surprised how stiff these still feel after nearly 5 months.

I will say this. The Debut is at about the price point where you really don't have to many options and you probably don't spend much time agonizing over which skates to get. You either get Jacksons or Riedells and many people probably still want the boot/blade package like the Freestyle/Competitor offered.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Sibelius on December 20, 2017, 11:12:35 PM
I've been skating in them since early August but with the original LCF sole since that's what it was offering at first. I am perfectly happy in them though I wish the slightly lighter rating had been available when I got them since they might be a little stiff for me.

Previously I'd broken down 2 Riedells in a year. The 229 and the 910LS so I'm surprised how stiff these still feel after nearly 5 months.

I will say this. The Debut is at about the price point where you really don't have to many options and you probably don't spend much time agonizing over which skates to get. You either get Jacksons or Riedells and many people probably still want the boot/blade package like the Freestyle/Competitor offered.

Did you mean the LCL sole?  From my daughters fitter I learned that you can choose LCL, LCF or other Fusion sole colors (sorry, colours!) on the Debut Fusion.  I confirmed with Jackson:

"We can make Debut with LCL, LCF or different coloured Fusion soles.  Completion timeframe and pricing can be confirmed through your retailer." 

Her Fitter said 4-6 weeks and $85 for different Fusion soles, not sure about LCL, or LCF costs.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: eonice on January 05, 2018, 10:52:19 AM
Just a quick update...

So I was finally able to get my foot in properly. Apparently I was being much too gentle with them. Anyway, the fit is great except for the heel, which is being crushed right above the sole where the padding is peculiarly minimal. These boots are ridiculously stiff, even though they are rated as being only marginally more so than the Freestyles which I'm accustomed to. The odd thing is, for all the discomfort, I am able to skate 5-6 hours at a time without any lasting damage to my feet even though it feels like they're causing bruises. I'm slowly recovering my ability to bend knees, but most of the time I just feel/hear a hard *clink* whenever I take a step--I don't feel any connection with the ice anymore. Hard to believe the higher end boots are twice as stiff as this one...
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Query on January 05, 2018, 12:36:06 PM
So I was finally able to get my foot in properly. Apparently I was being much too gentle with them. Anyway, the fit is great except for the heel, which is being crushed right above the sole where the padding is peculiarly minimal. These boots are ridiculously stiff, even though they are rated as being only marginally more so than the Freestyles which I'm accustomed to. The odd thing is, for all the discomfort, I am able to skate 5-6 hours at a time without any lasting damage to my feet even though it feels like they're causing bruises. I'm slowly recovering my ability to bend knees, but most of the time I just feel/hear a hard *clink* whenever I take a step--I don't feel any connection with the ice anymore. Hard to believe the higher end boots are twice as stiff as this one...

If fit right, it should not bruise your foot, and shouldn't hurt.

May I suggest a few things?

1. Push really really hard in the heel. Not just down so your foot touches the bottom of the boot, but also back so your foot pushes back and touches the back of the boot. People commonly need to kick on the floor with the back of the sole of the boot - especially if they have certain foot shapes.

2. Ask the fitter to do a heat mold. This site:

  http://www.jacksonultima.com/static/images/debut_boot_flyer.pdf

says that the Debut boots are heat-moldable.

This video

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhZLOEw7o5Q

says Jackson heat molding material now includes something in the heel counter, which should help.

Some of us have heat molded our own boots, but the dealer has the real equipment, and most of them will mold for free if you bought it there.

3. If that isn't sufficient, and your fitter has no other ideas, try contacting Jackson (not just the fitter or seller) to see if they have any, or have a fit warranty.

4. If that doesn't help, try taking out the insoles.

5. If none of those help, we can look for other ideas, like punching (stretching) the boots at the desired location.

BTW, pretty much all figure boots get less stiff with time. Expect them to need a break in period if that bothers you.

Also - very high end boots are really, really, stiff. Many of us can't bend new ones perceptively with our hands. If your shop hasn't any to look at, look at their high end hockey boots. Hard to believe that people can bend either at all with their feet, but somehow, they do. Also, some of the difference between a higher end boot and what you have (and Debuts ARE rated for competitive use), might possibly be how long the stiffness lasts before it begins to break down, rather than initial stiffness. (I'm basing that on a quote from a book on boat-building, not skates, so it might not apply.)

Others may disagree, but, AFAICT, the only figure boots that really need to bend perceptibly are ice dance boots - and only if you deliberately pronate and supinate to deepen edges. Especially if the boots have some padding.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Sibelius on January 05, 2018, 04:59:21 PM
I asked 2 sources about the fit, Jackson and Kinzie's Closet.  Both said the outer sole is shorter, but the fit guides are the same, based on the Elite last sizing.  My daughter is hopefully going to get fitted tomorrow.  We'll see what the recommendation is, if it's really that stiff (and the original Debut was way too stiff) we'll look at the other Jackson alternatives, an original Freestyle or another Elle (she HATES the look of the new Fusion models of those skates)

By the way, Kinzie's told me the original Debut is on closeout.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tstop4me on January 05, 2018, 05:35:18 PM
I asked 2 sources about the fit, Jackson and Kinzie's Closet.  Both said the outer sole is shorter, but the fit guides are the same, based on the Elite last sizing.  My daughter is hopefully going to get fitted tomorrow.  We'll see what the recommendation is, if it's really that stiff (and the original Debut was way too stiff) we'll look at the other Jackson alternatives, an original Freestyle or another Elle (she HATES the look of the new Fusion models of those skates)

By the way, Kinzie's told me the original Debut is on closeout.
Yeah, I just noticed that the original Debut is no longer listed on the Jackson website (only the Debut Fusion); and that Kinzie's Closet has the original Debuts on clearance as discontinued models.  A product lifecycle of ~6 months?
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Sibelius on January 05, 2018, 07:09:04 PM
Yeah, I just noticed that the original Debut is no longer listed on the Jackson website (only the Debut Fusion); and that Kinzie's Closet has the original Debuts on clearance as discontinued models.  A product lifecycle of ~6 months?

Must not have been selling. I never saw one on the ice at the 2 rinks mine skates.  Higher levels in Edea, or Harlick, lower in Riedell or Freestlye and Elle’s. Missed their mark on that one. Here’s hoping the Fusion is right for mine. Find out tomorrow.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Sibelius on January 08, 2018, 03:42:01 PM
For those interested, we ordered a pair of Debut Fusion Standards on Saturday.  None in stock to try on, hope they fit ok, she's about maxed out the Elle's. She did try on an Elle Fusion made on the same last for sizing, so that's something I guess. I learned I need to ask 2 questions now, are they tight? and are your toes curled?  They put the boots on the stretcher and maybe bought another week or two.  Tried taking the sock liners out and she said it didn't make a difference.  16 days until her Preliminary MITF test so not great timing.  Another item on these which seems odd since I read someone commenting about the shorter soles is the blade size is different.  The chart for the old Debut's has a 3 1/2 boot with an 8 1/2 blade, both the fitter and Jackson say Fusion is an 8 3/4 blade for the 3 1/2.  I've got both, but will be interested in why the difference when we get them.  Hated to order unseen or untried, but didn't have a choice.

Oh, and she started working on her Axel on Saturday. Again, not great timing for new boots.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on January 11, 2018, 01:59:39 PM
I think they are switching completely to the Debut Fusions which was always the plan. I was told they were in the works when I bought mine. I might pick up a second pair of the Debuts if they are on clearance to put PIC skate frames on.

They are a decent boot so far as Jackson's go. Better than the Freestyle in fit.

After nearly 6 months they are finally broken in but the tongue feels too stiff. They are changing the shape of my feet though so I'm not sure if long term I will stay but my foot feels more secure.

Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on January 11, 2018, 02:01:43 PM
I think they are switching completely to the Debut Fusions which was always the plan. I was told they were in the works when I bought mine. I might pick up a second pair of the Debuts if they are on clearance to put PIC skate frames on. Edit they are only offering a $20 discount so not a deep clearance price

They are a decent boot so far as Jackson's go. Better than the Freestyle in fit.

After nearly 6 months they are finally broken in but the tongue feels too stiff. They are changing the shape of my feet though so I'm not sure if long term I will stay but my foot feels more secure.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Sibelius on January 11, 2018, 03:25:51 PM
Can I ask you what size, sole length and blade length you have?  Hope it's not too personal  :-[.  The reason is that Jackson is telling me that for the Debut Fusion size 3 1/2 the sole measures 8 13/16, and the blade required is an 8 3/4, whereas the original Debut, with the same sole length calls for an 8 1/2.  The math on that just doesn't work if you leave a 1/4" gap as usual (I think), so somebodies chart is off (actually Jackson's is a mess).  Her fitter will put the proper blade size on (I have and 8 1/2 and an 8 3/4) but I'm curious about what the real world measurement is.
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: tothepointe on January 12, 2018, 09:49:33 PM
6.5 C/D with a 9.5" blade
Title: Re: Jackson Debut Boot
Post by: Sibelius on January 13, 2018, 03:09:58 PM
6.5 C/D with a 9.5" blade

Thanks, that's what shows on the chart for that size.  I think someone screwed up on the Debut chart, doesn't make sense that for a 3 1/2 to have the same sole length as the 4 1/2 but one size takes an 8 1/2 blade and the other an 8 3/4.  Boots arrive on Wednesday and will be measured, hope she's skating in them by next Saturday.