Blade upgrade? Coro Ace vs Eclipse Volant?

[mjebos86]

I’m currently on Ultima Mirages and my skating is progressing faster than I thought it would! I’ve been taking group lessons and I recently got my LFO and RFI 3 turns, and have started working on waltz jumps.

However, I’m really hitting a wall with spins. I can get a two foot spin going just fine, and I’ve been working on balance and body posture, but I cannot for the life of me find the sweet spot to turn these into one-foot spins.

I’m not normally a member of the “blame the equipment” club but I’ve talked to a couple other skaters who say they had a tough time spinning on Mirages - the consensus being that the Mirage is more of a “jumps and glides” blade.

I’m doing absolutely fine with my boots right now, so I’m wondering if getting a blade upgrade for now and then carrying the new blades over to my next pair of boots makes sense.

I’ve done a little shopping and it looks like for about the same money, right now I could either get a used pair of Coronation Aces that look to be in pretty decent shape, or a brand new pair of Eclipse Volants.

Would this be a good move? I know the Ace and the Volant have a shorter rocker that would take some getting used to, but if it’ll make spinning easier I wonder if it’s worth adjusting to the rocker while I’m still only working on basic jumps?

And what are your thoughts on buying used blades? The ones I’m looking at are on eBay and look to be in good shape, no obiovus rust or anything. I’ve asked the seller to measure the sharpenable area for me so that I get an idea of how much life is left in them. I know the Ace is a higher level blade than the Volant but I am sure that to an extent my money might be better spent on something brand new.

[alejeather]

If you're curious about the effect of equipment on spinning, an unknown used blade is probably not your best bet. I'm not familiar with the Eclipse Volant, but if it is a good price for a different rocker, it might be worth a shot if you're trying to satisfy your curiosity. A Mirage is a very low level blade, so at worst, you'd go from a low level blade with a flat rocker to a low level blade with a slightly rounder rocker. That's an assumption I'm making - I do not know ANYTHING about the Eclipse Volant.

All of that being said, spins are sooo hard. It took me ages to learn a scratch spin/one foot spin and I've been a relatively quick learner as a skater. I was on Mirage blades at the time and I went through this same thought process. I did eventually learn to spin on those blades and when I got new boots, I upgraded my blades. I changed to a rounder rocker at that time, and I do think it's a better choice for me. So overall, while it can make some difference for spinning, it's also still possible to learn to spin on a flatter rocker and spinning is just flat-out difficult so a rounder rocker may not be an instant fix.

Good luck!

[Bill_S]

Buying used blades is like Russian Roulette. You may get a good set, or you could end up with something completely trashed. It takes only one bad sharpening to ruin any blade regardless of cost or how new they are.

I'd consider either the Ace or the Eclipse Aurora (Ace equivalent). But I will guarantee you that you won't suddenly become an expert spinner with either blade. As alejeather says, spins are very hard to learn, especially as an adult. Been there done that. I was on a Majestic-level blade when learning scratch spins and switched to Aces, but that didn't help much at all. It still took another 5 years to even get halfway good at them.

There is no magic blade for spins, darn it.

[Sibelius]

Try looking for an Eclipse Mist.  It's a closed out model that was replaced by the Aurora.  It is available cheap if you can find the right size.  I bought 3 pairs for $89 each.  It retailed at $225 each, but wasn't distinguished from the original CA or MK Pro to warrant that price, so it was replaced with a model that is stainless steel.  My skater went from the Mirage to the Mist and spins were instantly improved.  She's now on her second pair, but unfortunately the last one won't be used because her boot size will go up too much for the blade size.  It was a great blade to move her from a beginner to an intermediate blade cheaply.  Warning, it's got a real toe pick, what we call a big girl toe pick.  It takes some getting used to and some falls.

Search for the blade, find someone who has it in stock and make them an offer no more than $100.  Get it mounted at a good shop and you'll be set for awhile.

Kinzies Closet for example: (not sure if the link will be right)

[url]https://www.shop.kinziescloset.com/Clearance-Eclipse-Mist-Figure-Skating-Blades-EclipseMist.htm/url]

I agree about caution re used blades, especially Wilson and MK.  They're hand made and our fitter says she rejects quite a few that are way out of spec brand new.

[lutefisk]

I've skated on Ultima Mirage blades.  They came pre-mounted on the first pair of Jackson freestyle boots I purchased.  Next Jackson boots came with Ultima Aspire blades.  Both of those blade models feature an 8 foot  rocker.  I've just swapped out the Aspires for Ultima Legacy 7 blades.  The 7 stands for a 7 foot rocker.  I did this not to improve spins, but in the hope that more rocker might help with turns in my weak direction--which which no amount of coaching has been able to improve.  So far that hasn't seemed to be the case, but it's still early days. I've had these blades less than a week and have used them only three times.  However, I have noticed that on the 7 foot rocker blades my turns, and also my back skating have become quieter and much less scratchy even if they're no tidier.  I think the extra rocker forces me a little further back on the blade and does a better job of keeping me off my toe picks.  I don't know enough about the  blades which you are considering to comment, but you may want to compare 8 foot rocker vs 7 foot rocker blades as you make you choice.

[Sibelius]

Try looking for an Eclipse Mist.  It's a closed out model that was replaced by the Aurora.  It is available cheap if you can find the right size.  I bought 3 pairs for $89 each.  It retailed at $225 each, but wasn't distinguished from the original CA or MK Pro to warrant that price, so it was replaced with a model that is stainless steel.  My skater went from the Mirage to the Mist and spins were instantly improved.  She's now on her second pair, but unfortunately the last one won't be used because her boot size will go up too much for the blade size.  It was a great blade to move her from a beginner to an intermediate blade cheaply.  Warning, it's got a real toe pick, what we call a big girl toe pick.  It takes some getting used to and some falls.

Search for the blade, find someone who has it in stock and make them an offer no more than $100.  Get it mounted at a good shop and you'll be set for awhile.

Kinzies Closet for example: (not sure if the link will be right)

[url]https://www.shop.kinziescloset.com/Clearance-Eclipse-Mist-Figure-Skating-Blades-EclipseMist.htm/url]

I agree about caution re used blades, especially Wilson and MK.  They're hand made and our fitter says she rejects quite a few that are way out of spec brand new.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that Eclipse offers a 60 day No Questions Asked return policy.  You could try either the Volant, Cosmos or the Aurora (but that's probably out of your budget) and if it doesn't work you can return them.  You can only use that option one time though, so we're saving it if we want to try the top of the line Eclipse blades, maybe sooner rather than later it turns out.  Can't use that option on a Mist if you find one though since it's a discontinued model.  Good luck, but do get out of that Mirage.

[tstop4me]

I’ve done a little shopping and it looks like for about the same money, right now I could either get a used pair of Coronation Aces that look to be in pretty decent shape, or a brand new pair of Eclipse Volants.

Would this be a good move? I know the Ace and the Volant have a shorter rocker that would take some getting used to, but if it’ll make spinning easier I wonder if it’s worth adjusting to the rocker while I’m still only working on basic jumps?

And what are your thoughts on buying used blades? The ones I’m looking at are on eBay and look to be in good shape, no obiovus rust or anything. I’ve asked the seller to measure the sharpenable area for me so that I get an idea of how much life is left in them. I know the Ace is a higher level blade than the Volant but I am sure that to an extent my money might be better spent on something brand new.

(1) I wouldn't buy used blades unless (a) they are from a trusted source (e.g., from a good skater I know who goes to a decent sharpener) and (b) I could inspect them.  One bad sharpening could ruin a pair of blades.  A frequent screwup is a flattened spin rocker, which would defeat your purpose in buying them.  Also, if the steel is burned during sharpening, the edge region gets softened.

(2) The Coronation Ace would be an excellent choice, and a new pair might be worth saving up for. If you are considering Volant [I have no experience with them], I would first e-mail Eclipse and ask them what the spin rocker radius is.  Among the various blade manufacturers, I've found them to be the most responsive and forthcoming.  Wilson doesn't publish the specs for their spin rockers.  But according to measurements by Paramount, the Coronation Ace has a compound spin rocker, with a 12" radius primary spin rocker just behind the drag pick, and a 27" radius secondary spin rocker just behind the primary spin rocker.  The Aurora, Eclipse's version of the Coronation Ace, has a 23" radius spin rocker (I e-mailed Eclipse).  I've skated on both the Coronation Ace and the Aurora.  Except for the spin rocker, the Aurora is the better choice:  slightly more expensive, but fabricated from 440C stainless steel, with longer edge life (you'll recoup the extra cost with just one fewer sharpening).  But if you're primarily interested in spins, I would recommend sticking with the Coronation Ace.

(3) Note that the Mirage has an 8' radius main rocker, whereas the Coronation Ace, Volant, and Aurora all have a 7' radius main rocker.  If you want to maintain an 8' radius main rocker, but go to a smaller radius spin rocker in an intermediate blade, your choices are limited:  (a) the Ultima Legacy (original with 8' radius main rocker; the newly released Ultima Legacy 7 has a 7' radius main rocker, so be careful to go with the original) or (b) the Wilson Comet (no longer listed on the Wilson website, but still widely available; it has an 8.5' radius main rocker).  Note that the Ultima Legacy will give you a better spin rocker than the Mirage; but in general, Ultima blades tend to have a flatter spin rocker than their Wilson counterparts.   Other blades with a 8' radius main rocker and better spin rocker (such as Wilson Gold Seal or Pattern 99 and counterparts) are too advanced for you right now and way more expensive.

[rmsilva]

Your story sounds similar to mine. My first pair of skates were Riedell 133 Diamond with an entry-level Capri blade. When I started to work on 1 foot spins, I had a heck of a time finding the sweet spot. I was either on the main rocker or grinding the drag pick. A coach later explained that entry-level blades don't have much of a spin rocker, therefore have a very small sweet spot.

After upgrading to MK Professionals (equivalent to Coronation Ace), I've yet to hit that drag pick and finding the sweet spot is sooooooo much easier. No, new blades won't instantly make you a good spinner, but they will make learning spins a lot less painful.

I agree with others, don't waste your time on used blades. My new MK Pros were $220 - worth every penny.

[nicklaszlo]

However, I’m really hitting a wall with spins. I can get a two foot spin going just fine, and I’ve been working on balance and body posture, but I cannot for the life of me find the sweet spot to turn these into one-foot spins.

That's normal.  Spins are harder than they look.  Be patient.  I'm an adult gold test medalist in one country and adult national champion in another country, and I usually cannot find that sweet spot either.  I have bruises on my knee to prove it.

I was watching Brian Orser (one of the top coaches in the world) teach spins to a group of ~ 10 novice competitors, and only one of them did it right, according to him.

I probably make this post about once a month...

[tstop4me]

No, new blades won't instantly make you a good spinner, but they will make learning spins a lot less painful.

<<Emphasis added>>  Well put!

[mjebos86]

Thanks so much for all the helpful advice!

I should clarify - I’m definitely not expecting that I’ll suddenly get one-foot spins down pat with new blades, but I am wondering if the design of the Mirage might be getting in my way. I spent some time with my teacher  just trying to find the rocker at my last practice, standing at the boards and rolling through both blades, and I just couldn’t seem to find a spot between the main rocker and the drag pick. I also have some issues with the pick scratching during backwards swizzles, so I’m wondering if a 7’ main rocker and a more pronounced spin rocker might suit me better. And I know one of the advantages of an 8’ rocker is more stability for landing jumps, so my thought was that it might be easier to make the change now before I start learning jumps - especially because I can carry a good set of blades over to my next pair of boots (being an adult whose feet are done growing).

[tstop4me]

Thanks so much for all the helpful advice!

I should clarify - I’m definitely not expecting that I’ll suddenly get one-foot spins down pat with new blades, but I am wondering if the design of the Mirage might be getting in my way. I spent some time with my teacher  just trying to find the rocker at my last practice, standing at the boards and rolling through both blades, and I just couldn’t seem to find a spot between the main rocker and the drag pick. I also have some issues with the pick scratching during backwards swizzles, so I’m wondering if a 7’ main rocker and a more pronounced spin rocker might suit me better. And I know one of the advantages of an 8’ rocker is more stability for landing jumps, so my thought was that it might be easier to make the change now before I start learning jumps - especially because I can carry a good set of blades over to my next pair of boots (being an adult whose feet are done growing).

Given that your current blade is giving you such problems, it would make sense to upgrade.  I think it makes more sense to save up enough to upgrade to an intermediate blade in the ~$200 range than a beginner blade in the ~$100 range.  Caveat:  Even though you're an adult and your feet have stopped growing, your next pair of boots may (and I emphasize may) require a different length blade.  When you switch to different brands or even a different model boot within the same brand, you may end up with a different size boot.  And even if the nominal size is the same, the length of the sole-heel may be different.

[rmsilva]

I spent some time with my teacher  just trying to find the rocker at my last practice, standing at the boards and rolling through both blades, and I just couldn’t seem to find a spot between the main rocker and the drag pick.

To illustrate the difference in spin rockers, one of the coaches at my local rink had me put the the blade of my old skates on a table so I could see the spin rocker at eye level. We also did this with her blade.

The coach's blade had a very pronounced spin rocker, with room to spin without hitting the drag pick. When I put my blade on the table, my "spin rocker" was basically a point on the blade. The difference in blades was striking - if I didn't it it perfectly, I would hit the drag pick and grind to a halt. It was super frustrating, and I was so happy to ditch those old blades.

Entry-level blades are more flat to help beginning skaters with stability. When upgrading my blades, I felt like I was I was falling or tripping forward because the spin rocker was so pronounced - I was even convinced that my blades were mounted incorrectly! It took me around a month to get used to the new blade profile - I only skate 2-3 times a week.

Just my two cents.

[mjebos86]

Thanks again for all the advice!! To loop back around - I got a sweet deal on a brand new pair of MK Professionals (only $75) - they were on closeout from a skate shop that was going out of business. I figure that’s a relatively sound investment, and I can get used to a different rocker profile so that when I eventually need new boots I can either keep the MKs if they have life in them and fit my new boots, or at least be in a better position to know what I want in my next set of blades.

[tstop4me]

Thanks again for all the advice!! To loop back around - I got a sweet deal on a brand new pair of MK Professionals (only $75) - they were on closeout from a skate shop that was going out of business. I figure that’s a relatively sound investment, and I can get used to a different rocker profile so that when I eventually need new boots I can either keep the MKs if they have life in them and fit my new boots, or at least be in a better position to know what I want in my next set of blades.

Good luck with those.  Wow, $75 for new MK Pros is a fantastic price.

[Bill_S]

That was a steal!

[mjebos86]

I’ve been out on the MK Pros twice now. I’m definitely finding my two-foot spins and turns move faster - I feel a lot less resistance from the blades themselves. Still working on maintaining balance when picking up one foot during a spin but I can actually feel a spin rocker on these blades, which I couldn’t with the Mirages, so that’s a plus!

One interesting point - I didn’t realize until I got the blades that they have K-picks, which I hadn’t heard of before. Guess they aren’t very common now, and explains why the blades were so cheap. They aren’t getting in my way at all at this point, but my group teacher made a face when she saw them...guess they aren’t well-loved?

[Bill_S]

Thanks for reporting back.

It sounds like they are suiting you well, and a step up from your old ones.

I never heard anything bad about K picks, although there were some who viewed them as a marketing move. They must not have many positive comments either or we'd still be seeing them.