Why do some people look down on the test track levels?

[isakswings]

It seems to me that some people look down on test track. I think test track is a great option for those who want to compete and move up levels but have a harder time doing it on the competitive track. I've thought about having my daughter move to TT but any time I mention it, she wants nothing to do with that idea. When I tossed the idea out at her this weekend, she told me she DID NOT want to skate test track. She has a couple of friends who skate TT and she thinks it is great for them, but she has no desire to skate it herself. She feels it is too easy. I agree that the lower levels of TT would be too easy for her, which is why she would test up through at least Juv  and then to Intermediate where she would be able to do doubles in her programs. The biggest issue I see with TT is the lack of competitors. Around here, we don't often see a lot of TT skaters, esp at the higher levels.  I was talking to one of the other mom's about this and she seems to think that a TT skater who skates at say, Juv has less "bragging rights" then a skater who skates well balanced. Personally, I think if any skater has passed up through any of the higher level tests, that skater owns the rights to be proud of his or her self. It is not easy to pass the higher level moves tests and I have heard the higher level freeskate tests are harder to pass too. This is not the first time I have heard people think less of TT skaters. IMO, they work just as hard and it doesn't mean you aren't good too!

I only wanted to toss the idea out for her to ponder. At this point, we will keep her on the well balanced track. She is the one who has to skate, not me... so we will keep her here for now. I honestly have no idea why she has it in her head that TT is "bad". The only thing I can think of is that she has not seen higher level TT skaters skate, so she assumes  it is all "easy"?

Anyway... have any of you heard of people with low opinions of the TT levels? Now if only I could get past my own stress levels when dd competes! I worry WAY too much about her freeskate program! By the time she stepped on the ice, I was a ball of nerves! She ended up skating fairly well and all that worry was for nothing. OY!

[Clarice]

I'm  not addressing the "look down" aspect at this point, but one reason a skater might want to stay on well-balanced is for IJS.  Test track events are judged 6.0.

[sarahspins]

I think for a lot of skaters it's viewed as less competitive as well... that there would be less reason to push yourself as a skater with test track than standard track.

[TreSk8sAZ]

I think a lot of kids think test track is "easy" because (let's take the Juv level) the requirements of a test track program is simply nowhere near as high as the requirements for a competitive well-balanced program.

For a skater to say they are at Juv, but they can only skate the elements on the Juv test (so up to single axel) is awesome. But usually when you hear someone is at Juv, you expect that they can do doubles and possibly a double axel. That is a huge difference. I think that some kids that I've seen at WB Juv level would almost be insulted that a TT Juv skater was also saying they were Juv - because it invokes an image of being much better than they really are. I guess it is kind of seen like someone who claims they can land a double, but really it's cheated and they haven't landed it at all.

Like you, I think that anyone who passes the higher level tests should be very proud of themselves. But there really is a difference in being an Intermediate TT skater and an Intermediate WB skater. Not that one is bad, just different.

[Skittl1321]

Because people like to have a reason to think they are superior.  It's not just test track- it's everything. 

[icedancer]

Because people like to have a reason to think they are superior.  It's not just test track- it's everything. 

Status. Pure and simple.  I agree.

It's the same with skaters who won't do ISI events.  There is less status attached than USFS.

[tazsk8s]

Status. Pure and simple.  I agree.

It's the same with skaters who won't do ISI events.  There is less status attached than USFS.

I also agree.  My daughter gave up skating before TT came along and it would have been perfect for her. As it was, we went through the same nonsense with people who looked down on Open Juvenile.

[jjane45]

IMHO the problem is with the well-balanced testing track, where the competitor's technical ability is WAAAAAY above the test requirement. It's almost like sandbagging recognized as the norm. If testing recognizes someone landing up to axel as juv skater, then s/he has every right to call herself / himself a juv skater.

Also how does MITF and dance factor into this? Say someone passed novice MITF yet competes at juv, can s/he be called a novice skater? What about novice dancers who don't even compete FS?

[hopskipjump]

I don't know of any test track skater who competes, but I would think that the biggest concern would be that they wouldn't be in eligible competitions.  They would have to 'give up" their dream of the Olympics or being a national skater.  That is a big let down for kids.

I don't think that it is sandbagging at all! They are skating to what they are tested.  Pre preliminary testing is single jumps, but in most comps it's clean axel that is required because that is what all the girls are doing.

[Skittl1321]

I don't know of any test track skater who competes, but I would think that the biggest concern would be that they wouldn't be in eligible competitions.  They would have to 'give up" their dream of the Olympics or being a national skater.  That is a big let down for kids.

Test track doesn't make you ineligible though, you could go back to eligible skating anytime you want.  Test track exists so kids can test up, and still compete.  It used to be that kids who weren't going to be "stars" either had to stay in low levels and not test, or test up and get creamed in competition.  Now kids can work through the tests, and still be able to compete at a level they are capable of.

Most of the kids who skate test track around here don't have any sort of Olympic dream (at least not any real one- they skate for fun). 


JJane- As for the tests being "wrong".  I disagree.  Getting a senior test is a realistic goal for many high school aged skaters.  Getting to senior nationals is a far away, very difficult to reach goal.  Making the tests so far out of reach would be incredibly discouraging, and many skaters wouldn't stay in the system.  USFS needs the money from the lower level skaters to support the elite levels.

The tests are a minimum standard to enter the level.  And when you enter the level, you aren't going to be competitive if you just have the minimum standard.

MITF tests have no basis on level.  You can't call yourself a novice skater if you've passed only MITF.  If you passed, singles, dance, or pairs you can (though most dance/pairs qualify it with "novice dance/pairs"; singles don't feel the need to qualify because they are the default).

[fsk8r]

IMHO the problem is with the well-balanced testing track, where the competitor's technical ability is WAAAAAY above the test requirement. It's almost like sandbagging recognized as the norm. If testing recognizes someone landing up to axel as juv skater, then s/he has every right to call herself / himself a juv skater.

Also how does MITF and dance factor into this? Say someone passed novice MITF yet competes at juv, can s/he be called a novice skater? What about novice dancers who don't even compete FS?

You're right. In the UK we've got 10 levels (+beginners) and while at each level there are one or two elements allowed from higher levels they prevent kids from sitting at the lower levels and not testing up. As you get up to the higher levels (Level 4+) the kids will have double jumps at different stages. The test requirements are for specific jumps, competitively, you may have different doubles at varying degrees of competency. It's only when you hit Novice that the competition requirements are really what you need to qualify for Nationals and not what the test system requires. The only age requirements are for Nationals, so anyone can enter a qualifying competition. They just don't qualify if they don't have the age requirement (Qualification is about points scores at an IJS competition).
It seems to work, as the kids have an incentive to test up as they want to go to Nationals, but equally there are enough categories that those not going to Nationals have an incentive to progress.

[sarahspins]

Getting a senior test is a realistic goal for many high school aged skaters.

I wouldn't necessarily say that.. not everyone gets all of their doubles - I never did, though I will freely admit that if I hadn't quit actively training as a teenager maybe it's a goal I could have reached, I stopped taking lessons somewhere between 17 and 18, and stopped skating shortly before I turned 20.  However, it is definitely a realistic goal for someone who *has* all of their doubles, even if that doesn't include a double axel (a single is fine). 

It seems at my rink anyways, most competitive skaters do get through senior moves, and top out in standard track freestyle around Intermediate or Novice - there are relatively few skaters who progress past that competitively.  Most skaters then test up through their last FS levels when they make the choice to stop competing and focus on coaching. 

[techskater]

Kids who realize that they aren't going to be competitive have something to continue skating for (Senior FS test).  Around here, kids also top out around Intermediate (when they age out of Juv but still don't have a 2A).  If the Senior FS test weren't achievable, many would just quit right there, but USFS sends a notification to schools for HS Seniors who have passed Senior FS for honors night.  It's been kicked around many times to change the criteria for the Senior FS test at GC every few years, but the fact of the matter is that supposedly of every skater who starts testing, only about 1% make it through their Senior FS test.

People always have to find a reason to feel superior.  It happens in every sport/class/job/etc.  For example, in my other sport, there are two categories - Proficient (P) and Skilled (S).  It requires the same number of points to achieve a Championship whether you run P or S but because P jumps 4 inches higher and has a tighter time standard, some of them look down on those that run S.  I think they just have an inferiority complex in general...

[jjane45]

What fsk8r described seems very reasonable, any disadvantages there? I am quite interested in how test level vs competition level works out for other skating federations at the recreational level below novice.

For skaters who enter the testing stream, I've always wondered which percentage is higher: someone who started at a young age to get the double axel, or someone who started as adult to get the single axel. Getting the "obstacle jump" is realistic, but not quite happening to everyone in reality due to lots of reasons.

Let's say juvenile FS test is equivalent of high school diploma, senior FS test equivalent of Ph.D., and national senior title is the Nobel prize. A and B attend a prestigious high school together, A struggles to get passing grade from every class and B sails thru every single AP test and takes sophomore courses at Ivy League university. Assume test track is the regular exam in school and competition track is inter-school competition. Let the future Ph.D.s prepare for the Nobel prize, but don't force A pass exams on advanced calculus in high school. B should not be offended that A is also called a high school graduate after graduation, and A should not give up applying for any college because the Nobel prize is not in sight.

[sarahspins]

someone who started at a young age to get the double axel, or someone who started as adult to get the single axel.

I actually think it's more realistic for most adults (who want to be able to do it) to get the axel, simply because it's less of an obstacle than a 2A is for a younger skater.  Not many skaters ever have reliable double axels... some even have multiple triples before they get their 2A.

[Doubletoe]

In all honesty, the U.S. Figure Skating freestyle tests are the easiest among the top figure skating countries.  Skaters don't even need a double axel to pass the Senior FS test.  To most skaters, going "test track" means you've given up on being able to place well at competitions.  I think it's great that your daughter wants to stay in competitive track because it means she is not afraid of failure and she's not afraid to challenge herself.  That will be great preparation for real life, IMO.  And she can always just get all her FS tests out of the way and get her gold test medals if she hits a plateau and gets frustrated competing.

[PinkLaces]

We do have higher level TT skaters out here.  Usually they are the kids that are competitive until they age out of Juvenile and/or are not competitive at Intermediate.  They are usually about 14/15+ . Since they are not competitive in well balanced any longer, they decide to work on the rest of their tests.  They still like competing. In some smaller communities with limited ice time, that's just what they do - everyone skates TT. 


My own DD is a good skater but not a great one.  She skated TT.  Mostly because it took her 2+ years to get her axel.  She could land a double loop and a double toe loop, but that darn axel held her back.  So she tested up to Pre-Juv FS and did TT for awhile. She felt it was kind of limiting. She is testing her Juvenile FS in August.  People can look down on her if they like, but she worked extremely hard for that test and didn't give up. 

If your DD wants to keep doing well balanced, I'd let her.  She can always switch to test track later or not at all.

[fsk8r]

In all honesty, the U.S. Figure Skating freestyle tests are the easiest among the top figure skating countries.  Skaters don't even need a double axel to pass the Senior FS test.  To most skaters, going "test track" means you've given up on being able to place well at competitions.  I think it's great that your daughter wants to stay in competitive track because it means she is not afraid of failure and she's not afraid to challenge herself.  That will be great preparation for real life, IMO.  And she can always just get all her FS tests out of the way and get her gold test medals if she hits a plateau and gets frustrated competing.

I don't think many countries have double axel on their test systems.
One question about competitions on the WB system. Are there any limitations on what skaters can do at a given level? As soon as there are limitations on what is allowed at a level of competition, being competitive isn't about having the most "tricks" (jumps/spins) it's about how well you can actually skate. The incentive to test up is to be able to use those harder "tricks" which aren't allowed at the previous level. There's no reason why you can't bring the competitive system and the test system slightly closer into alignment. The better skaters will still rise to the top, but you'll have more people competing against each other at the slightly lower levels of competition as you keep the kids who've not managed to hit their jump requirements by a certain age.
 


 

[Skittl1321]

Are there any limitations on what skaters can do at a given level?

There are some limits.  The number of spins and jumps you can do is limited.  There are also arrangements of the elements that limits you, and you get more freedom as you move higher up (but also more requirements in other ways).

The elements are limited in this way:
Pre-pre: No double or triple jumps
Prelim: Only 2 doubles allowed, only from double toe, sal, loop, no triples
Pre-Juv: No double axel or triple jumps
Juv: No triple jumps
Above that there do not seem to be element limitations.  Adults are limited to no flying spins at low levels, but I didn't see that on any of the standard track tests, so they don't seem to have spin limitations.

[fsk8r]

There are some limits.  The number of spins and jumps you can do is limited.  There are also arrangements of the elements that limits you, and you get more freedom as you move higher up (but also more requirements in other ways).

The elements are limited in this way:
Pre-pre: No double or triple jumps
Prelim: Only 2 doubles allowed, only from double toe, sal, loop, no triples
Pre-Juv: No double axel or triple jumps
Juv: No triple jumps
Above that there do not seem to be element limitations.  Adults are limited to no flying spins at low levels, but I didn't see that on any of the standard track tests, so they don't seem to have spin limitations.

Looking at that list, I would say that Pre-Pre competitively compares to Level 3 in the UK (first competition allowed an axel although it's tested at Level 4). Although by test requirements it's lower than our Level 1 (entry test). I suppose because of this, our kids don't feel any stigma about getting to say level 5 or 6 (which is probably Pre-Juv or Juv competitively) because there's quite a few levels of competition below them. They're still not high enough to qualify for Nationals, but they're not that lowly.

[TreSk8sAZ]

Looking at that list, I would say that Pre-Pre competitively compares to Level 3 in the UK (first competition allowed an axel although it's tested at Level 4). Although by test requirements it's lower than our Level 1 (entry test). I suppose because of this, our kids don't feel any stigma about getting to say level 5 or 6 (which is probably Pre-Juv or Juv competitively) because there's quite a few levels of competition below them. They're still not high enough to qualify for Nationals, but they're not that lowly.

The thing is, though, that list is what is limited for Well Balanced programs in competition. For tests, the single axel doesn't even show up until Juvenile. But obviously the competitive kids are doing much higher jumps than simply an axel (many that qualify for Nationals have a 2A). The first double jump doesn't show up until the Intermediate test, but kids are competing doubles in Preliminary. And while Juv and Intermediate don't qualify for Senior Nationals, they are high enough to qualify for Junior Nationals (held at a different time than Sr. Nationals which has Novice through Senior levels).

It sounds like in your system, the tests are somewhat closer to what is actually being competed at each level. This is what TT here tries to do. But someone competing TT Juvenile can only do up to an axel (I believe, as that's the highest jump on the test) while a WB Juvenile skater is doing doubles and maybe a 2A. That's a huge discrepancy between competition and test, and why many skaters get discouraged around those levels.

[fsk8r]

The thing is, though, that list is what is limited for Well Balanced programs in competition. For tests, the single axel doesn't even show up until Juvenile. But obviously the competitive kids are doing much higher jumps than simply an axel (many that qualify for Nationals have a 2A). The first double jump doesn't show up until the Intermediate test, but kids are competing doubles in Preliminary. And while Juv and Intermediate don't qualify for Senior Nationals, they are high enough to qualify for Junior Nationals (held at a different time than Sr. Nationals which has Novice through Senior levels).

It sounds like in your system, the tests are somewhat closer to what is actually being competed at each level. This is what TT here tries to do. But someone competing TT Juvenile can only do up to an axel (I believe, as that's the highest jump on the test) while a WB Juvenile skater is doing doubles and maybe a 2A. That's a huge discrepancy between competition and test, and why many skaters get discouraged around those levels.

Yes, they've specifically restricted the competition requirements to keep them close to the test requirements. To be competitive you do generally need a few things from higher tests which haven't been restricted, but you can still place well with being close to the test standard.
It's only when you hit Novice that the restrictions get lifted and anything goes. But equally we do have problems with kids trying to compete Junior without a double axel. So they've brought in requirements that mean that to get the competitive test (ie passport to Nationals) you need to have attempted the double axel in your short program. Achieving the qualifying score is no longer the only requirement. But those kids who don't have one at Junior can still compete at Level 9 in the Opens. They're just not going to Nationals.
It just means the disconnect between the competitive and test track levels doesn't happen for us until you are competing at ISU level.
And while this is better for the kids competing in the opens, it doesn't necessarily help our competitiveness on the international scene.

[techskater]

And while Juv and Intermediate don't qualify for Senior Nationals, they are high enough to qualify for Junior Nationals (held at a different time than Sr. Nationals which has Novice through Senior levels).

Actually, as of this year, qualifying is all the same from Juv+

[isakswings]

Thank you for the replies! At this point in time, my daughter has zero interest in switching over to TT. For now, she will stay WB. I still believe that there is nothing wrong with TT and while it is true that skaters skating WB have more difficult elements and the competition is stiffer then in TT, I feel that ANY skater who takes a test and successfully passes said test, deserves to feel proud of what he or she has accomplished! The test track and WB skaters have to pass the same tests. Yes, competition wise, it is like comparing apples and oranges but each skater still owns those passed tests and nothing should take that accomplishment away. In my mind, it is like comparing olympic level senior skaters to standard WB track senior level skaters. Most of them would not hold a candle to the olympic level skater. That does not mean that the WB skater should feel any less accomplished then the olympic skater, it just means they are DIFFERENT. They train differently, they compete differently and have a different set of skills and it is OK. YES the olympic level skater is likely a stronger and more skilled skater, but that still does not take away the accomplishments that the regular WB skater has earned.

I am glad the TT levels exist and I hope that some day, there will be more skaters who use these levels to achieve their skating goals and enjoy the sport. Again, thank you for your opinions.