Higher heel

[Hanca]

I am just ordering custom made boots. These will be my first dance boots, until now I have been skating on custom made freeskating boots. My coach advised me to ask for a higher heel. Now I am looking at the form and they want me to exactly specify how high the heel. 

Does anyone here have higher heel? When comparison with the standard height, how much higher should I go for? 

Do dance boots have generally higher heel in comparison with freeskating boots? (I don't want to ask for even higher heel if perhaps dance boots would have it higher than feeskating boots anyway).

[nicklaszlo]

I heard from the dance coaches here that when switching from freestyle blades to dance blades, a higher heel compensates for a shorter blade in the rear.  So I presume it depends on how much your blades are changing.  Maybe the height of your partner is also important.

[Hanca]

I am changing both boots and blades, so I don't need to worry about how long my blades will be and get boots according to the blade length. As the boots are custom made, my priority is to get the boots right and then buy the blades according to the length of the boots.

I think skaters are asking for higher heel for other reasons than to compensate for the blade length. Higher heel helps with the knee bend, make the sit spin easier...
(I have never had higher heel so I can't talk about its disadvantages).   

[fsk8r]

If you're switching regularly between dance and freestyle boots with different heel heights it's going to affect where your weight is when doing things like sit and camel spins. It will be a subtle difference but it still exists. I tend to learn spins in my free boots and when they are reliable and consistent I switch them over to the dance boots (slightly higher heels). I then test that I don't lose them in my free boots. If they lose consistency, I leave it slightly longer before working regularly with them in the dance boots.
If you're making a switch to a higher heel height and not switching back, then the adjustment will disappear in the "new boots and blades" adjustment process.

[Hanca]

There are people who switch regularly between figure skating boots and hockey boots and they are fine. (Not sure how high the heel is on the hockey boots, but I would imagine that they won't be exactly the same as figure skating boots.) It might be very individual and depends on whether the person is good at adjusting or not. Then again, they don't do figure skating elements in the hockey boots... and I have got a bad feelings that I am not naturally gifted to cope with any changes and any adjusting...

What is the height difference of your freeskating and dance heels?

[nicklaszlo]

my priority is to get the boots right and then buy the blades according to the length of the boots.

That was not the point.  For a fixed boot length, a dance blade will have a shorter heel than a freestyle blade.  If you plan on getting a shorter heeled blade, you should get a higher heeled boot to help you not flip over backwards.  In this case, the blade heel is the distance from the rear of the boot to the rear of the blade, while the boot heel is the distance from the bottom of the boot to the bottom of your foot.

Blade length and distance from boot toe to heel are a separate issue.

[Hanca]

That was not the point.  For a fixed boot length, a dance blade will have a shorter heel than a freestyle blade.  If you plan on getting a shorter heeled blade, you should get a higher heeled boot to help you not flip over backwards.  In this case, the blade heel is the distance from the rear of the boot to the rear of the blade, while the boot heel is the distance from the bottom of the boot to the bottom of your foot.

Blade length and distance from boot toe to heel are a separate issue.

Ups, I did not think about that. It's a very good point. Thank you for that.  Do you know how much higher I should go for? 1/2 inch? 1 inch? More? Less? I really don't know what I am doing.

[irenar5]

Does your coach have a suggestion how high to go?  I have seen a show ice dancer at my rink with an insanely high heel- I think it was at least 3.5  inches or maybe even higher. 

[Hanca]

No, my coach just said to go for higher heels, but she did not have any exact suggestions of how high. My coach is one of the people who could skate on anything, so she never needs it now, and at the time when she used to compete I don't think things like that were available (or they might have but it would be so expensive that she wouldn't be able to buy it).

[Hanca]

Can anyone please advise me how high is the heel on Riedell 4200 Dance boots? (If you measure the heel at the back of the boot.) Thank you very much.

[Query]

With my limited flexibility, a higher heel proved to be a problem, and made skating very difficult and uncomfortable. In addition, I felt more out of balance - it is harder not to roll onto my toe pick.

After they arrived, I sent the boots back to Klingbeil to get normal heel heights.

High heels are almost always made with more strongly bent foot beds at the balls of the feet, which remains uncomfortable for me. Klingbeil had no way to fix that.

A boot maker rep said the point of higher heels is to make your foot look more pointed than they actually are. Dance skaters are frequently expected to point their toes - or appear to.

But these issues may only affect people with limited flexibility.

Yes, raising the heel did shift my weight forwards. But with or without high heels, rolling off the back hasn't been a problem for me.

Do many people have trouble rolling off the back of dance blades? I was taught to keep my skating blade under my center, not in front of it. Perhaps it is mostly a problem if you are landing freestyle jumps in them?

[Hanca]

Query, I don't think I understand what you are trying to say. What has limited flexibility to do with having a higher heel? What exactly was the problem and how the problem is connected with being/not being flexible?

The higher heel is apparently supposed to help with knee bend. As a freeskater I thought I was bending my knees, but that's nowhere near enough bent for dance. If you make a simple test - stand on the floor and bend knees as much as you can while keeping the whole feet on the floor. If you do the same with doing this with a heel, it is easier and more comfortable to go lower. My freeskating boots allow me the bend comfortably to a certain level, after that it gets harder and more uncomfortable. If the heel was just a bit higher, it would be easier. The same with sit spin - it is apparently easier to get lower with higher heel (after all, most people when they do squats off ice and go completely down have to lift the heels off the floor). So actually, if someone has limited flexibility of the muscles at the back of your legs, they should (in theory) find it easier on the higher heel.

Though I can understand the bit where you are saying that it was uncomfortable because the foot beds was more bent. Women feel the same when they walk on higher heels. I think the solution is to raise the heel just a bit, but not too much to make it uncomfortable. How much higher did you have it? (Or what was the size of your heel when measured at the back of the boot?)

I think another reason for raising heel, as nicklaszlo pointed out, was that in freeskating the blade is longer at the back (and I am currently used to have the tail there). So when skating backwards, I would be at the back of my blade - possibly using the tail of the blade.  If I get now dance blade who doesn't have the tail and try to put my weight as far back when skating backwards, I will keep ending up on my bottom. I don't think I have a problem with rolling off the back of the blade now, but changing from freeskating blade to a dance blade may cause the problem. If you say you don't have the problem, is it because you started straight on the dance blade? Or after being several years on freeskating blades did you swap to dance blades?

       

[Query]

Hanca: Having a high heel forces you to point your foot more. So if pointing your foot much is a flexibility problem, high heels are bad.

OTOH, I know someone with short Achilles Tendons, who needs high heels to be healthy. She also needs to have her feet bend downwards, like a Ballet Pointe, inside her boots. I guess flexibility issues can work both ways.

I learned at first on Coronation Ace - sort-of-freestyle blades, after switching from beginner blades. They were on skates I bought cheap from a used sporting goods store - which were too big. I kept crossing my tails. So as soon as I switched to Dance boots and Dance blades of the proper length, I loved the blades. Plus I had a coach who insisted I skate faster, and the local skate tech said MK Dance were fastest.

Maybe the rolling-off-the-back thing is a matter of how you were taught to skate.

I was mostly taught to keep my weight near the center most of the time. Specifically, I was taught to lean forwards when skating forwards, and back when skating back, to the amount needed so the weight is centered. The look that lean creates is a large part part of what I was taught to consider a proper Ice Dance look. With center weighting, rolling off the back of your blades isn't a problem. (Except - I am skating this summer on a very bumpy rink. Suddenly skating backwards is scary!)

The opposite lean is common among freestyle skaters. Many keep their weight and lean backwards when skating forwards, and forwards when skating backwards. Which makes it easier to accidentally roll off the back. If that is you, maybe Dance, Synchro and Hockey blades can't make you happy.

[AgnesNitt]

Problem with 'high' heels in skates for the older skaters.

Hallux Limitus or Rigidus.

If anything, I want lower heels. But I don't think I'm good enough for it to make a difference.

[Query]

I didn't want to give a mis-impression. Most Ice Dancers use higher heels. It's usually part of the look, and Phil of Harlick says that there is an optical illusion that makes high heeled boots look more pointed.

Incidentally, it seems irrational, but if you go to a Ballroom Dance place, and watch the ladies who have obviously put a lot money into dressing fancy, many wear stiletto heel shoes. Maybe ice dancing ladies want to look like ballroom dancers. But that can't explain why ice dancing men should want them.

[Hanca]

Maybe the rolling-off-the-back thing is a matter of how you were taught to skate.

I was mostly taught to keep my weight near the center most of the time. Specifically, I was taught to lean forwards when skating forwards, and back when skating back, to the amount needed so the weight is centered. The look that lean creates is a large part part of what I was taught to consider a proper Ice Dance look. With center weighting, rolling off the back of your blades isn't a problem. (Except - I am skating this summer on a very bumpy rink. Suddenly skating backwards is scary!)

So was I. That's why I am wondering whether on short blades when skating backward, when I put my weight back I will fall backwards on my bottom.

[Hanca]

Problem with 'high' heels in skates for the older skaters.

Hallux Limitus or Rigidus.

If anything, I want lower heels. But I don't think I'm good enough for it to make a difference.

       OMG, I hope this isn't that common. One could argue that you are more likely to get it from wearing daily high heals rather than from wearing ice skating boots...

[AgnesNitt]

      OMG, I hope this isn't that common. One could argue that you are more likely to get it from wearing daily high heals rather than from wearing ice skating boots...

Hallux Rigidus is extremely common. Most women over 50 probably, and maybe half over 40.

[Query]

If most women over 50 have it, it can't be due to ice dance boots...

>>I was taught to lean forwards when skating forwards, and back when skating
>>back, to the amount needed so the weight is centered.

>So was I. That's why I am wondering whether on short blades when skating backward,
>when I put my weight back I will fall backwards on my bottom.

If you always center your weight on the blade, you won't be on the part of the blade that would cause you to fall backwards. But if you sometimes center your weight behind the place the tail ends on Dance boots (say, on back 3-turns or counters, or back twizzles), and you feel you can't adapt to the change, you could fall. Maybe you could have someone watch while you skate backwards and do back turns, to see how far back you normally roll.

For whatever reasons, ice dancers place usually more importance on "neat feet" than freestyle skaters, which means the feet should often be close to each other. Having shorter tails makes that easier. That said, many ice dancers do use freestyle blades, yet do well.

But if you are switching from freestyle to dance boots, maybe it makes sense to keep your old blades if they are still OK, and see how they do? Maybe it is easier to change one thing at a time.

But it's your choice. We can't decide for you.

[aussieskater]

For whatever reasons, ice dancers place usually more importance on "neat feet" than freestyle skaters, which means the feet should often be close to each other.

Not ice dancers only; their partners have a strongly vested interest in neat feet!!

[Hanca]

Not ice dancers only; their partners have a strongly vested interest in neat feet!!

 

[Hanca]

But if you are switching from freestyle to dance boots, maybe it makes sense to keep your old blades if they are still OK, and see how they do? Maybe it is easier to change one thing at a time.

But it's your choice. We can't decide for you.

I actually thought about it. I love the current blades (Phantom Special) and it would make sense to adjust first to boots and perhaps a year later change the blades. One change at a time. BUT My coach recommended to go for higher heels. So if I do that, I will need a smaller size blade, so my current freeskating blades won't fit. And if I am going to spend the money on blades, I may as well buy the dance blades.