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Author Topic: Adult Moves Tests  (Read 13635 times)

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Offline aussieskater

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Re: Adult Moves Tests
« Reply #75 on: October 28, 2011, 06:58:02 PM »
As an outsider looking in, I've read this discussion about testing with interest.  We don't have the luxury of Adult vs standard track tests here, but we also don't have Moves test at all.  Except for 3 figure pattern tests, we have only dance or freeskate tests.  However, it's mooted that the system is finally introducing a Moves track next year, probably similar to the USFS one.  No word on an Adult track though  :(.

Why does the USFS system place so much emphasis on "flexibility"?  Granted, "figure skating" is no longer about tracing figures on the ice, but it's also not about hoicking your feet and knees up over your hips multiple times.  Why don't they give testing options - choose 1 of the following 2 moves; or choose one side only?  It seems to work OK in the freeskate tests.  Except for the first 2 freeskate tests, the Australian test system give element options in the freeskate tests - a "spin in one position"; a "double jump preceded by steps".  No requirement that it be a camel spin, or a loop jump rather than a flip jump.

Here's a quick options menu I created for the Adult Moves tests, using the moves I could think of:

Pre-bronze = straight-line spirals on both legs.
Bronze = a shoot-the duck (both legs?), plus either a lunge (choose leg) or a spreadeagle (choose leg and edge).
Silver = backwards shoot-the duck or a backward edge spiral.
Gold = an Ina Bauer  (maybe backwards?) or a COE spiral (maybe backwards?)

These choices mean that the skater is forced to learn the basic positions for camel spin and sit spin, but give an adult skater with injuries and basic wear-and-tear some wiggle room on what are supposed to be Adult tests.

If the regime insists on not giving element options in the Adult testing system but wants to test all the spirals as they do currently, maybe they could spread them out over the moves tests, by implement something like:

Pre-bronze = one straight-line spiral on each leg.
Bronze = one FO spiral and one FI spiral (choose the leg).
Silver = one BO and one BI spiral (choose the leg).
Gold = one forward COE spiral and one backward COE spiral (choose the leg).

Just some thoughts.  Sorry for the long post!

Offline nicklaszlo

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Re: Adult Moves Tests
« Reply #76 on: October 28, 2011, 09:32:05 PM »
Just some thoughts.  Sorry for the long post!

The design of the moves tests can't be considered in isolation from the design of the freeskate tests.  You would not let people get credit for a lunge in Bronze MITF because they probably already did it for Prebronze FS.  Learning shoot the duck in Silver doesn't prepare you for the sit spin in Bronze FS.

I think the purpose of moves is more to teach the skater to connect elements together than to teach the elements.  So while I agree that the number of spirals should be reduced, they should be embedded in some kind of pattern that covers the full surface.

Offline icedancer

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Re: Adult Moves Tests
« Reply #77 on: October 28, 2011, 10:09:52 PM »
I love that aussieskater is thinking outside the box in terms of the Moves, but the suggestions are more freestyle elements that Moves, which I think of as a variation of figures (faster ones) that teach the skater about skating itself and that means edges and turns and the movement of the body across the ice.

I agree that lunges and Ina bauers, etc., belong in the freestyle test stream as those are basically freestyle elements.

Plus asking an ice dancer to do a lunge, shoot-the-duck or a spiral for that matter, just is inappropriate IMHO.

But as I've stated before many times on this forum, I think it is time for those on the Adult committee to come up with some Moves that are more Adult-skater appropriate.

Offline aussieskater

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Re: Adult Moves Tests
« Reply #78 on: October 28, 2011, 11:08:23 PM »
Nicklaszlo and icedancer, I do see what you both mean.  Sorry for any inconsistencies and unfilled dependencies in my menu - I don't have a detailed knowledge of the USFS Adult freeskate system as I'm not in the US and I'm a dancer.  My suggestions were more based on whichever skills I could think of, which are not freeskate "elements" per se.

I love that aussieskater is thinking outside the box in terms of the Moves, but the suggestions are more freestyle elements that Moves, which I think of as a variation of figures (faster ones) that teach the skater about skating itself and that means edges and turns and the movement of the body across the ice.

Icedancer, I absolutely agree with your definition of "moves".  I'd strongly argue that if spreadeagles and lunges belong in the freeskate tests, then even more so do the spirals - at least spirals garner a TES score in the IJS system, like jumps and spins.

If a short "menu" was to be offered, what skills would people like to see tested at each level?


Offline nicklaszlo

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Re: Adult Moves Tests
« Reply #79 on: October 29, 2011, 12:05:29 AM »
What if they changed the rules so that the adult moves tests no longer had prerequisites?  So those who simply enjoy taking moves tests but cannot pass the silver spirals could continue to test.  Such a rule change would have no effect on competition since the free skate tests and dance tests would maintain their prerequisites.

In a related question, are there people who could pass silver freeskate but cannot pass silver moves?  Perhaps the reasoning on the adult committee is that making the moves easier would not help if people are just going to get stuck on the freeskate anyway.  Not that this reasoning makes sense for people who take only moves tests.  My experience is limited to prebronze, and I would say that many people could pass prebronze FS before prebronze moves.

Offline icedancer

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Re: Adult Moves Tests
« Reply #80 on: October 29, 2011, 11:33:57 AM »
What if they changed the rules so that the adult moves tests no longer had prerequisites?  So those who simply enjoy taking moves tests but cannot pass the silver spirals could continue to test.  Such a rule change would have no effect on competition since the free skate tests and dance tests would maintain their prerequisites.

Not sure what you mean - I think that you need to pass Silver Moves before you can take the Silver FS or compete at Silver.  It's true that the Moves tests have no impact on testing dance, but do impact competitive dance on the Standard level but not for Adult dance.


In a related question, are there people who could pass silver freeskate but cannot pass silver moves?  Perhaps the reasoning on the adult committee is that making the moves easier would not help if people are just going to get stuck on the freeskate anyway.  Not that this reasoning makes sense for people who take only moves tests.  My experience is limited to prebronze, and I would say that many people could pass prebronze FS before prebronze moves.

I think that there probably are those skaters that can pass the Silver FS test but not the Moves.

In response to aussieskater's question my general requirements for the Moves tests would be:

Pre-Bronze - some semblance of understanding of edges
Bronze - more understanding of edges and generation of power
Silver - still better edges, some turns and power generation with the addition of extension - you might call it style or presentation
Gold - strong edges, good turns, excellent extension, style and presentation

My 2 cents.

Offline AgnesNitt

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Re: Adult Moves Tests
« Reply #81 on: October 30, 2011, 09:11:41 AM »
In response to aussieskater's question my general requirements for the Moves tests would be:

Pre-Bronze - some semblance of understanding of edges
Bronze - more understanding of edges and generation of power
Silver - still better edges, some turns and power generation with the addition of extension - you might call it style or presentation
Gold - strong edges, good turns, excellent extension, style and presentation

My 2 cents.
I think you're on a good track.

I think the test should have pre-silver and silver moves, and pre-gold and gold. And with additional levels you could add some new stuff that's not tested now (more figurish like since that seems to be happening). But by breaking the tests up, no test would become the endurance contest that silver is today.

I would be happy with the present moves tests if they'd just put the flexibility elements in freestyle (where I logically think they belong). Maybe freestyle is so crowded they just shove spirals into moves to put it somewhere.
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Offline Nate

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Re: Re: Adult Moves Tests
« Reply #82 on: November 29, 2011, 03:24:44 AM »
Bad side mohawk are hard. Because many adults do not have two open hips. Also,  for someone just starting skating,  they are not used to stepping onto the weak side like that. Anyone who doesn't understand this simple fact... I really have no other way to explain it.

The fact that some other person does equally great mohawk on both sides doesn't matter.

It is really hard to do a mohawk when your hip is pulling something hard to close on you.

This is why it's typically easier for the young kids to get in bauers and spread eagles...

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Offline Sk8Dreams

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Re: Adult Moves Tests
« Reply #83 on: November 29, 2011, 07:16:34 PM »

Here's a quick options menu I created for the Adult Moves tests, using the moves I could think of:

Pre-bronze = straight-line spirals on both legs.
Bronze = a shoot-the duck (both legs?), plus either a lunge (choose leg) or a spreadeagle (choose leg and edge).
Silver = backwards shoot-the duck or a backward edge spiral.
Gold = an Ina Bauer  (maybe backwards?) or a COE spiral (maybe backwards?)

No one with closed hips will ever be able to do a decent spread eagle. It's just a physical fact of the way the hips are built.  This is why spread eagles are not required anywhere in the USFS test structure.  Even to allow it as an option in place of another move, is to give an unfair advantage to some over others.

I know quite a few adults who cannot now and will never be able to do either shoot the ducks or lunges because of knee issues.  Adults are typically given a lot of leeway in the freestyle tests when sit spins are required.  They are definitely not held to the standard of having the skating hip level with the skating knee.  I've seen very few adult skaters who can get that low safely (excepting those who started when they were kids.)

Ina Bauers are in the same category as spread eagles.

My glass is half full :)

Offline turnip

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Re: Adult Moves Tests
« Reply #84 on: November 30, 2011, 02:05:34 PM »
I can tell that you know that wikis aren't always complete or accurate.  Does the NISA rulebook (not the wiki) say anything about being allowed to reverse the pattern?

The ISI doesn't have it written on the patterns, but their Dance Step Sequences are reversible, although most of them have turns in both directions.


Bronze silver and gold are tested by your own coach. I know people whose coach insisted they did it both ways to standard before passing them. I'm sure a coach would allow it to be reversed for a CW skater, if they didn't want it both ways.

Offline techskater

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Re: Adult Moves Tests
« Reply #85 on: November 30, 2011, 06:25:27 PM »
I think you're on a good track.

I think the test should have pre-silver and silver moves, and pre-gold and gold. And with additional levels you could add some new stuff that's not tested now (more figurish like since that seems to be happening). But by breaking the tests up, no test would become the endurance contest that silver is today.
You don't have to stop testing once you pass your Gold MIF test - you can continue on with Intermediate and beyond.  Intermediate includes the forward twizzles, Novice includes the back twizzles and forward loops, Junior includes a slstseq and the back loops.  They also recently put the back 8's on Gold.

Offline sarahspins

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Re: Adult Moves Tests
« Reply #86 on: November 30, 2011, 07:02:20 PM »
I would be happy with the present moves tests if they'd just put the flexibility elements in freestyle (where I logically think they belong). Maybe freestyle is so crowded they just shove spirals into moves to put it somewhere.

Honestly, if they could just change the "spiral" position to just an attitude for the adult tests, and require the free foot to be only knee-height at minimum that would likely eliminate the flexibility/strength problem for a lot of skaters, and still show the edge control and balance that the move is actually meant to demonstrate.

I'm at the point where the outside spirals are easy, but I just can't keep the insides going before my back is screaming at me and I have to stop about halfway through that side.  In my case it's not a flexibility issue but a strength/endurance issue, and while I've been working on it, progress has only come slowly.  I've only made it through the whole pattern (all at once) a few times... I can't depend on being able to yet.  However, I still struggle with my back inside 3's so that part of the test still needs a lot of work before I'll be ready to test silver moves anyways (which ironic because I've been working on back rockers and counters and back twizzles don't have nearly as much trouble with those even though they're supposed to be "harder"). 

I actually figure by the time I'm ready to test Silver they'll have changed it again so I won't have to worry about the spiral pattern :)  I can hope, anyways...

Offline FigureSpins

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Re: Adult Moves Tests
« Reply #87 on: November 30, 2011, 07:21:29 PM »
I actually figure by the time I'm ready to test Silver they'll have changed it again so I won't have to worry about the spiral pattern :)  I can hope, anyways...
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Offline tazsk8s

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Re: Adult Moves Tests
« Reply #88 on: November 30, 2011, 10:14:27 PM »

I actually figure by the time I'm ready to test Silver they'll have changed it again so I won't have to worry about the spiral pattern :)  I can hope, anyways...

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Offline sarahspins

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Re: Adult Moves Tests
« Reply #89 on: November 30, 2011, 11:04:10 PM »
Ah, an optimist - I like it!

Of course :D

But when it comes down to it, it may be next fall before I test silver moves if they aren't ready to test this spring, and if they keep changing them every year like they have been.... I may be preparing for a test that will no longer exist in it's current form.  It's really hard to chase a moving target when they keep changing the rules :(  I spent a lot of time working on the pre-bronze forward 3's pattern (realizing now that I was doing it to a much higher standard in terms of speed and precision than was actually required to be passing standard) only for that one to get dropped, and quite honestly I was not thrilled.  Right when I was ready to test it, they changed it.

Offline drskater

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Re: Adult Moves Tests
« Reply #90 on: December 07, 2011, 01:00:04 PM »
I've read this thread with interest over the past few months.

FWIW: A USFS "insider" told my coach that they're not going to change MITF again anytime soon. But, who knows?

I wonder if a compelling argument to add a "pre-silver" level might be the current length of Silver moves. It's a long test! Long tests take up valuable ice time and "crowd" already heavily-booked test sessions. IMHO, the USFS pays a bit more attention to logitical concerns than, say, the limitations of the adult body.

Offline Skittl1321

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Re: Adult Moves Tests
« Reply #91 on: December 07, 2011, 01:09:12 PM »
IMHO, the USFS pays a bit more attention to logitical concerns than, say, the limitations of the adult body.

Last year's moves changes were designed to shorten the length of the tests (when they consolidated the 8-step mohawk for example).  The must have forgotten that when they changed the spirals this year to a move that take 3-4x as long as the previous one.

Offline sarahspins

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Re: Adult Moves Tests
« Reply #92 on: December 07, 2011, 04:32:07 PM »
The must have forgotten that when they changed the spirals this year to a move that take 3-4x as long as the previous one.

No kidding! 88)

That spiral sequence is killer.. it's longer than the one that shows up later on Intermediate.