skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: sampaguita on October 29, 2013, 03:21:04 AM
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I know that freestyle blades are marketed based on how difficult the jumps are that they are made for, but what about blade glide? Is there a difference, and if so, do you have to be high-level to feel it?
If we gave a low-level skater a pair of Gold Seals and a high-level skater a pair of, say, Ultima Mirage blades, will they feel a difference in terms of blade run? Let's assume they have enough time to adjust to the new rocker/profile.
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Blade glide has mostly to do with rocker radius - an 8ft radius will have more glide than a 7ft radius, and generally with a 7ft radius turns should be easier, but turns and spins on a higher level blade regardless of rocker radius may be more difficult because the length of the spin rocker is shorter and the drag pick is larger - requiring better balance on the blade, which is usually more difficult for a beginning skater to achieve.
A higher level skater is more apt to be able to skate on anything (I've seen skaters do doubles on hockey skates and plastic rental skates). A lower level skater may find themselves constantly catching/tripping on the larger drag pick on a higher level freestyle blade, which is why they are generally not recommended - but a low/intermediate freestyle blade (like the Coro Ace or Professional) is usually fine for most skaters at any level.. from beginner right on up to triples.
Any blade choice beyond that is simply personal choice - but beyond the physical differences of the radius and spin rocker and pick configuration, some blades like the gold seals are often chosen because the sole plate simply has more screw holes, making it more secure with the repeated pounding of triple and quad jumps. Not every skater doing quads uses those though - basic boot care (drying off, allowing to dry out between sessions) can prevent most catastrophic mounting failures, or at least identify them prior to failure, so you still see lots of skaters in other top level freestyle blades. It seems like we've heard a lot of failures at competitions recently (Gracie Gold, Jeremy Abbot, etc), but generally those kinds of issues are caught in advance and repaired quickly - it's relatively rare for them to become emergency situations right before a competition.
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How low a level skater?
I got used Gold Seals when I was in Freestyle 2 or so. It took me quite awhile to get used to them and be able to spin at all, but compared to the Mirages it was like they did the turns for me. Once I got used to them my spins were also better.
And I've also had the experience of seeing a high level skater do jumps in rental skates- and hockey skates. The comfort on the ice of elite skaters is just astonishing to me. In a "playing" situation, nothing phases them.
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My coach is selling me the idea of getting better blades. In my opinion, I'm in good enough blades for my level, and my Mirages are in no way responsible for my lack of edge quality. However, I'm thinking of whether it would actually be wise to save some money for better freestyle blades, even if I'm doing dance.
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My upgrade from Mirages to Mk Pros was an impulse buy, but I really love the 7 foot rocker.
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I think a lot of coaches are biased against "stock" blades because in the past most were very poor quality blades... that isn't necessarily the case now. The blades on nearly all freeskate level boot sets are not the "beginner" blades most coaches are used to, they are in fact low level freeskating blades. Are they equivalent to the mid-range freeskate blades most coaches recommend? No, but they're not intended to be and that doesn't necessarily make them bad blades.
There is also a difference considering moving from the Mirage to something like a Coronation Ace (which I would put in the category of a "better" blade than the Mirage), compared to going from the Mirage to something like Gold Seals. I'm not sure what exactly you are asking in this thread, is your coach trying to sell you on the idea of getting something like gold seals? If so that's absolutely not necessary, but if the suggestion is just to move up to the next level from your stock blades, then that may be something to consider, or you could simply wait until your blades have no sharpening left and actually need to be replaced.
If you are committed to doing dance and wish to focus on that more than freeskating there are also a few lower level dance blades you could consider when you do choose another blade.
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My coach is selling me the idea of getting better blades. In my opinion, I'm in good enough blades for my level, and my Mirages are in no way responsible for my lack of edge quality. However, I'm thinking of whether it would actually be wise to save some money for better freestyle blades, even if I'm doing dance.
I disagree- the Mirage very well could be responsible for your lack of edge quality. The blades are not good.
Going to a very high level blade would be a waste of money, but something like an Ultima Legacy/Protege (I'm a huge fan of the Matrix Legacy, and they stay sharp for a long time which has saved me money and gas for sharpenings), a Coronation Ace, or the low level Paramounts would make a difference.
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Thanks for the replies!
I disagree- the Mirage very well could be responsible for your lack of edge quality. The blades are not good.
Going to a very high level blade would be a waste of money, but something like an Ultima Legacy/Protege (I'm a huge fan of the Matrix Legacy, and they stay sharp for a long time which has saved me money and gas for sharpenings), a Coronation Ace, or the low level Paramounts would make a difference.
Hi Skittl! Could you please give some more details on the Mirage? The only thing I know that are different about blades are the radii of the rocker/spin rocker, and the material (whether it rusts easily or not) -- I don't know what makes a blade "good" or not.
If you are committed to doing dance and wish to focus on that more than freeskating there are also a few lower level dance blades you could consider when you do choose another blade.
Would a low-level dance blade like the Ultima Finesse or the Coronation Dance be of the same "level" as the Legacy or Coronation Ace?
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Thanks for the replies!
Hi Skittl! Could you please give some more details on the Mirage? The only thing I know that are different about blades are the radii of the rocker/spin rocker, and the material (whether it rusts easily or not) -- I don't know what makes a blade "good" or not.
My evidence is anecdotal because I used Mirage for years. The steel they use is not as strong- it will not hold as sharp of an edge, which will effect your ability to skate on it. I can tell this from the sharpening life of these blades vs the other blades I've used. Additionally, while I have always used blades with an 8' rocker, that is an over simplification to say they are all the same shape, because there is a secondary rocker where you spin at. I can only say the blades are not all the same, I can't say what measurements are- but without a doubt, for me the spins on the other blades have been better; and that is directly comparing them, not because I've gotten better over time as I've gotten new blades. Even more than the spins, the quality of my turns are stronger on the other blades. (I also am really partial to the beautiful edge rip noises I get in the Matrix Legacy). For me, as an adult, I feel like my equipment makes a big difference- I don't adapt as well as a kid, so it really did help to get better blades. The Mirage is a $80 blade. They have to cut cost somewhere, and I really think it is in the quality of the steel.
And yes- a Coronation Dance blade will be the same "level" as a Coronation Ace. I don't know about the Finesse, but I imagine it would be the similar to Legacy/Protege. Dance blades are a specialty blade, so they don't make them for the low mass-market. Honestly, dance blades scare me though- the balance points are a bit different not having the tail of the blade back there. Yes, your feet are less apt to get tangled up, but I don't think I'd want to be in them as a beginning dancer. (I've learned dances through the swing dance.)
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And yes- a Coronation Dance blade will be the same "level" as a Coronation Ace. I don't know about the Finesse, but I imagine it would be the similar to Legacy/Protege.
I agree on both counts - the Coronation Dance is basically a shortened Coronation Ace, otherwise it's the same. Likewise the Finesse is very similar to the Legacy (maybe closer to the Protege since it has straight cut picks). I don't put the Legacy quite in the same category as the Coro Ace or Professional, even though it's marketed as equivalent, because costs are cut somewhere, and I think the steel is just not quite as good as what Wilson or MK offers (the Matrix Legacy being stainless falls into a different category). That said, I used to skate with someone who preferred the finesse over the coronation dance - the tail was just a smidge longer so it felt more comfortable to them, and any difference in quality was irrelevant based on how they felt on the ice.
There is also the Vision Synchro, which isn't quite on the same level as the original Vision but is still a very good blade - it seems to be the preference of most skaters I've seen on dance/synchro blades at my rink. Price wise it's right in between the Finesse and Coronation Dance.
That said, I don't think any of the lower level dance/synchro blades share the same issues common to a lot of the higher dance blades (the shifted balance point mainly - dance blades tend to keep you on the ball of your foot more) - they really are just shortened freestyle blades, and some are shorter than others.
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There is also the Vision Synchro, which isn't quite on the same level as the original Vision
SarahSpins, could you expand on this? I have been trying to work out why the Vision is priced so much higher than the Prof when it's in the same ability category. The only difference I can see is the straight teeth, vs the cross-cut.
I went with the Vision synchro primarily because of its length. And at it's price point, I feel like if I really hate it, I won't feel quite as guilty next season going to a traditional freestyle blade. But I've been trying to work out exactly how it's different from the original vision- if it's just a length issue, or if they changed something else. The shop didn't have any of either blade in stock, and when I called MK customer service to ask, the guy said "just length" based on a visual inspection.....
At this point it's mainly curiosity since I've ordered the blades. But I'd love your, or anyone's thoughts!
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The pick configuration isn't exactly the same between the two - if you could look at the two side by side you can see the difference. The original Vision has a slightly larger pick configuration (with a larger top pick), but the synchro version has a beveled drag pick than the regular vision doesn't have - generally that isn't a bad thing, I had a beveled drag pick on my phantom specials and I missed that initially on my Paramounts. It's a small difference, but it is a difference, and there's also the question of why the vision synchro is basically half the price of the regular vision - my gut feeling is that the steel used isn't the same, likely more on par with the Professional than MK's other top end blades.
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Ah, you know, I was wondering about the steel composition. I know all the competitive level (in which I include the Prof and CorAce) blades are made of good steel, but I am curious to know if the steel composition changes as you move in to the advanced and elite level blades. It seems to me that price jump has to account for something other than just toe rake/rocker design.
I wish they'd provide more clues on their website at least!
The beveled drag pick is definitely another plus for me- I'd forgotten about that. But I did scratch my head at the price differential- doesn't seem right, so I wonder if you might not be onto something with a lower quality steel composition.
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I've always thought that the price differential in the Synchro blades had more to do with marketing - trying to sell to entire teams and basically making a "price break" by selling them for less money.
My first dance blade was called "Wilson Dance" - I LOVED this blade but it was discontinued - I found out years later that it was a Wilson Majestic (low level cheap freestyle blade) with the backs cut off. That was the whole thing - no other rocker profile differences, etc. - it was an expensive blade (slightly less than MK Dance) because it was a DANCE BLADE (ooh) - so yeah, I think a lot of it is marketing and has nothing to do with materials.
I just took a brief look at the Kinzie's Closet website to check on some of these new blades - is it true that if you don't like the blades you can RETURN them? That would be so so awesome!!
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Regarding composition, I think the runners of all high level blades (over about $100 U.S. / pair) from the major brands use steel in the runners that is quite strong, and have fairly similar tempering and edge hardness.
Compositional and structural differences exist in the chassis to which those runners are attached, as well as in the metal plating and alloy components used to reduce rust. Also in the ways those runners are attached to their chassis.
But perhaps it makes more sense to worry about blade shape than composition, once you reach the $100+ price category. Shape has a lot more to do with how you skate.
There definitely does not exist consensus regarding what blade shapes are best for any purpose. But high level freestyle blades, as others have noted, have very prominent toe picks which get in the way of many lower level skaters.
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I wish they'd provide more clues on their website at least!
Now why would they do that... it would make too much sense :) What's worse is there are some lower level blades that are still in production that aren't even listed, and there are also some other blade models that aren't that old that turn up as new old stock every once in a while (such as MK's Gold Medal blade, which is not the same as their Gold Star, or even any of the Co-planar blades), and you'd be hard pressed to find much information about them now.
There used to be other differences between the lower and higher level blades, the highest level blades were brazed to the sole and heel plates rather than welded, which was very nice looking, and looked much stronger than today's blades do... but they stopped brazing about 25 years ago, so you really don't see too many of those any more.
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MK's Gold Medal blade
Is that the one that is actually gold (color, obviously, I wouldn't want to skate on actual gold)? I remember a couple of the higher level skaters (Novice+) in my area getting those as the '80's turned into the 90's - I thought the gold just looked weird. But I'm sure it was more of a status thing than anything else.
I'm even more curious now about my Vision synchro's. I don't even know if Vision was around back in the day- it seemed people went straight from Prof/CorAce to Phantom/Pattern 99. Or maybe it was just stupid to pay that price when for a few $$ more you get a Phantom/99.
As far as the brazing vs soldering....are more people snapping blades than before? Those doing quads....I imagine they're getting their blades sharpened pretty frequently anyway, so perhaps they go through the runner before the attachment to the plates weakens much?
How cool would it be if MK/Wilson actually talked about all these nitnoidy details. I'm probably revealing myself as a total nerd, but I think this is very interesting. Shoot- we use them every day, and in some cases our lives (or physical health) depends on them. Even though I've only scratched the surface (heehee-see what I did there?!) I feel like I understand my boots much more than I do my blades.
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No, the gold medal was a dovetailed blade like the phantom special, but with picks more like the professional. Any of MK and Wilson's blades can be ordered gold plated.. now you can even get them laser engraved while you're at it too :)
The Vision used to be called the Vantage, and I definitely know they were around in the 90's because my best friend had a pair, and yes, people did tend to go from Coro Ace/Prof to Pattern 99/Phantom - only a few skaters at my rink used Gold Seals or Gold Stars, and more often than not they were coaches, anything else was unusual. The Vision/Vantage is generally equivalent to Wilson's Pattern 99 but without the weirdly flattened spin rocker and short stanchions, making the Vision a very popular blade choice at my rink.
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No, the gold medal was a dovetailed blade like the phantom special, but with picks more like the professional.
If I remember right, what is special about the Phantom Special is a combination of horizontal side hone (is it tapered or parabolic?), with a very strong vertical side hone.
What is a "dovetailed blade"? Does it refer to the vertical side hone? he vertical side hone is set so the blade is thinner at the bottom than just above it, which I guess vaguely resembles one of the pieces in a woodworkers' dovetail joint.
What do you believe the vertical side honing does, skating-wise?
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I have the same questions as Query.
...strong vertical side hone.
What would this look like? Skinnier on the top or bottom? I presume the bottom since otherwise you'd have a patch blade, but I gotta ask.
I'd assumed a dovetailed blade was wider only towards the heel, while a parabolic is wider at the toe and heel, skinny in the middle (presumably around the sweet spot)?
Again, this is something the blade manufacturers don't really illustrate, and I'd love to know.
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Wikipedia has good descriptions of the various options:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skate#Blade_types
"Dove tailed" or "tapered" means the blade is wider along the long edge at the toerake end, then the width narrows towards the heel.
"Parabolic" means the blade is wider along the long edge at both ends, more narrow in the mid-section.
"Side Honed" means the blade is thicker at the stanchions than the lower skating edge.
A "K-pick" option is essentially an extra-wide toerake - the mfg welds/brazes small pieces of metal alongside the toerake. The extra pieces have picks that augment/match the center one. It is intended to prevent slippage on toe jumps, so many skaters with picking problems find it helpful because it corrects their technique.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/MK-Gold-Star-K-Pick-Parabolic-Figure-Skating-Blade-BEST-Prices-on-MK-Blades-/00/s/MTI3NVgxNjAw/z/ai4AAOxye3BRvfY7/$T2eC16RHJHsFGlMr,jKCBRvfY7,rQQ~~60_35.JPG)
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thanks!
So then what benefits would the dovetailing and side-honing have for the skater? Several of the higher end blades are dovetailed, so it must be worth something.
If you're side-honing for a narrower runner, why not have an all out slimline blade like the MK Dance?
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It's mainly about making skates weigh less. When you side hone, use parabolic or a tapered design, less metal is used when compared to a comparable traditional blade where the upright portion is flat. Side honing provides the ability to grip the ice on deeper edges, as it says in the Wiki.
Dovetailing/tapering provides strength at the front of the blade for toe jumps and landings. The impact on landing is at the front of the blade, so dovetailing reinforces that area while providing a lighter back of the blade.
Many skaters are deluded into thinking that high end skates with these features will make them better skaters. The impact is miminal at the lower levels of skating. The high-end freestyle blades are designed for big multi-rev jumps and flying spins. Side honing for deeper edges on other disciplines only helps if the skater is capable of getting that angle with their body and technique.
As someone who went to high-end blades way too early (well-intended gift from my brother), I'll tell you that ego impacts skating more than anything else - your skating technique improves because you are more aware of the need to skate properly on the new blades. Once you get used to them, it's really hard to go back down to a lower-level blade, so you have to spend a lot more money in the long run unless you really make the effort . I'm on my 6th or 7th pair of Gold Seals; it adds up really quickly at $800 a pair. I've tried to downgrade blades twice and both were frustrating and time-consuming efforts.
High-end blades are made for specific purposes, so the tail length, rocker profile, rocker radius, toerake style are more important than the other options. Most people wouldn't use a dance blade to do freestyle. Serious ice dancers would use dance blades instead of freestyle blades.
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Dovetailing actually effects the cross section of the blade, and has nothing to do with front to back taper. A blade can be dovetailed without being tapered. Like a dance blade that has a "slimline" cut, making the part of the blade that is sharpened in narrower without compromising the strength of the entire blade, a dovetail blade has a similar change, but the cuts into the side of the blade are angled, hence the "dovetail" term. What it does (similarly to side honing, though side honing is at a shallower angle) is change the relationship between the depth of hollow and the resulting bite angle - which can increase glide (from using a shallower hollow) while still feeling very sharp/grabby on the ice.
Here's a lousy example I just made showing the "cross section" of a dovetailed blade.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5477/10744417975_fa4c51262a_o.jpg)
I don't have my old phantom specials at home right now, but my phantom profile paramounts are tapered, they measure 4mm wide at the toe, and a hair over 3.5mm at the tail. I also have a pair of gold seals and they taper from 4mm to just over 3mm. I seem to recall that visually my old Phantom Specials (which were also tapered in addition to the dovetailing) were thinner at the tail than the paramounts are.
Now, I will say that as much as I loved my Phantom Specials, they were VERY noisy blades. My coach has commented several times that I'm the only skater she knows who went to paramounts and found them less noisy than my previous blades.
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Oh, I get it now. I had read Mr. Edge's column and I thought it was the same as tapering. I wondered why there were two different names.
Thanks!
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Yeah, me too, I thought dovetailing and tapering were synonyms. SarahSpins- that was a useful diagram. I'm sure it took you a while to do it, too. Thanks.
So it's all about weight as opposed to edge control (parabolic's aside).
And I agree, at this point I personally wouldn't skate on the MK dance, even though dance/jumpless synchro is what I'm doing. The non-aggressive toe-pick scares me.......I was incoherently wondering why they didn't make a freestyle blade slimline like that. But I guess that would compromise too much in terms of strength. But then, am I misunderstanding slimline as well? I assumed the WHOLE blade (stanchions and runner) were thinner- or is it side honed?
Hmmm, maybe I outta check out that Mr. Edge article that FigureSpins found. When I read the wikipedia link FigureSpins posted I didn't see the effect on skating for anything other than parabolics. K-picks weren't even mentioned now that I think about it....weird- maybe it's because I'm accessing from another country.
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Only the lower 1/4" or so of the blade is thinner on a slimline blade, but the sides are still parallel in the thinner section. However, your question made me wonder, and since I happen to have both a dance blade and a digital caliper handy, the blade I have measures 3.5mm wide (and is the same front to back), with the slimline section (the thickness you are actually skating on) measuring 2.5mm. The one I have is an older (at least 25 years old) dance mode from back when they were still brazed.
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That said, I don't think any of the lower level dance/synchro blades share the same issues common to a lot of the higher dance blades (the shifted balance point mainly - dance blades tend to keep you on the ball of your foot more) - they really are just shortened freestyle blades, and some are shorter than others.
This is so interesting and explains why I have never felt comfortable in the MK dance with my relatively "new" dance boots - the balance point in the boot is further back I think than the balance point on the blade! I tried today thinking more about being on the ball of my foot and viola! EVERYTHING was better.
Now I am thinking it may behoove me to get a heel lift of some sort (internal? external?) to help keep my weight closer to the ball... hence the rocker - of course my coach is always working on this from the "bend the hip, knee and ankle" perspective. Now I think I know why she is doing this!!
That you sarahspins and skatingforums in general for providing answers to those endless "blade technical" questions - yea!
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Sarahspins, you have some cool, and useful toys.
Thank you!
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This is so interesting and explains why I have never felt comfortable in the MK dance with my relatively "new" dance boots - the balance point in the boot is further back I think than the balance point on the blade! I tried today thinking more about being on the ball of my foot and viola! EVERYTHING was better.
It's possible, but more importantly than that is that we're all unique - both in terms of skating technique and anatomy, and what you just described is a perfect example of something just not working well for you, despite having been designed (presumably) to work well together for many skaters. A heel lift may help, but it may also negatively impact the fit of your skate (relating to the shape of your heel and how it fits into the heel counter). It is however, an easy thing to try out :)
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I do believe the Phantom Special is ground THICKER at the bottom, not thinner at the bottom like MK Dance. I'm not sure about the Gold Star. (Of course, the side honing isn't done up the whole height of the runner - just the bottom portion that might be used to skate. I think they take a swipe on each side with some sort of cutting or grinding tool, centered something like .1 - .2 inches above the bottom.)
Incidentally, a skating manual from about 1920 talked about parabolic, tapered and vertically side honed blades too - and didn't come to any conclusions about whether there was a benefit. People have been arguing about these things for at least that long.
One thing that is clear - if a skate blade has any type of side honing that affects the bottom of the blade, it becomes a lot harder to sharpen well. Unless your sharpening pro is very, very good, it doesn't make sense to try blades with any type of side honing that affects the bottom of the blade.
And as far as the structural forms of side honing that don't affect the bottom of the blade, which shave off a few grams of weight, the Ultima Lite blades, in which the less important parts of the blade from a structural perspective are completely cut away, are probably even lighter.
The best sharpening pros around here say that it is good business practice to give customers whatever they want. If a customer requests side honed blades, that's what the customer gets.
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Incidentally, a skating manual from about 1920 talked about parabolic, tapered and vertically side honed blades too - and didn't come to any conclusions about whether there was a benefit. People have been arguing about these things for at least that long.
I noticed that, too with the discussion on parabolics- I was wondering if it would be worth it (assuming my sharpener could handle them). But it seems either one noticed a marked improvement, or doesn't notice anything at all. In any case they don't seem to be detrimental.
we're all unique - both in terms of skating technique and anatomy
I wonder how much of the potential benefits are more related to this ^ than what any physics prof might say.
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on parabolics- I was wondering if it would be worth it (assuming my sharpener could handle them). But it seems either one noticed a marked improvement, or doesn't notice anything at all. In any case they don't seem to be detrimental.
Not sure about that - because some blades are shaped in the exact opposite manner.
Some people claim that parabolics make it easier to turn, and harder to track. Some people claim the opposite, that parabolics are harder to turn, but easier to track, and easier to "center", whatever that means.
MK and Wilson sell some skate blades that they say are supposed to be both parabolic (they use a different trademarked word for their patented form) and tapered - I have no idea what that means.
It makes a lot of sense that blade manufacturers don't explain exactly how blades are shaped. They don't want other manufacturers to copy them. Plus, it's harder to claim they did a bad job shaping a particular blade, if there is no published shape.
Oh, and to clarify: MK Dance blades and other slim-line blades are cut or ground uniformly thin near the bottom of the blade, so they keep the same width with successive sharpenings. Phantom Specials and some others are cut or ground at a slant or slight curve, so they get thinner with successive sharpenings.
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Once you get used to them, it's really hard to go back down to a lower-level blade, so you have to spend a lot more money in the long run unless you really make the effort . I'm on my 6th or 7th pair of Gold Seals; it adds up really quickly at $800 a pair. I've tried to downgrade blades twice and both were frustrating and time-consuming efforts.
Why is it so difficult to downgrade? Does a blade downgrade affect technique?
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Why is it so difficult to downgrade? Does a blade downgrade affect technique?
Effect technique, probably not, but there there are a number of differences a skater will pick up on, however they are subtle. It's not as much of an issue of being unable to skate, as much as just generally being unhappy with a lower quality blade. Some people experience the same thing just switching to a different blade model at the same level. I would equate it more to being used to skating at a particular ROH, then having that change - it doesn't exactly make you completely unable to skate, but it may effect your performance and perception of how the skate feels.