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On the Ice => Sitting on the Boards Rink Side => Topic started by: Jenna on October 04, 2011, 10:01:25 PM

Title: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Jenna on October 04, 2011, 10:01:25 PM
What does everyone think is the sticking point with Silver moves?  I had to wait until I was 25 to test the adult track, so I tested my Pre-Bronze the month after my birthday and my Bronze move 6 months later.  Fast forward 7 years and I still am working on Silver moves.  I guess I'm an anomaly because I like the spiral pattern.  Cross strokes are ok.  I don't like power pulls and I hate the 8 step mohawk and 3 turn pattens.  

I know that I can pass the test if I would really put in the time and effort and push myself to do it, but this test is the embodiment of all the things that I don't like.  It's hard to get the motivation to do all the things that I dislike so much, not to mention the fact that it is taking years to pass and I'm still not there.

I agree that judges have no idea what to do with adults and that you can't depend on bonus points to pass a test.  I don't know how much training will do in that regard.  Would it help to design unique patters for adult tests so the direct comparison isn't there?  I know there was a 3-turn pattern on the pre-bronze (?) test.  Would any committee want to put in the time and effort to overhaul the adult test structure?  

I never have felt like the adult skating committee has had much interest in skaters like me who started as adults and I think their focus is now on trying to keep skaters who have skated all their life to keep skating after they turn 21 and maybe to a lesser extent the adults who skated as kids, quit and came back after a gap of time.  Those groups have the most chance to get the elevation in skating quality of the adult skaters that USFS wants, which is sad.


Mod note: Split from Adult Committee Discussion
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: sarahspins on October 04, 2011, 10:41:21 PM
Jenna, the 3-turn pattern that was provided on pre-bronze as an "alternate" pattern for the alternating forward 3's on prelim (again, why take a move from a higher level and put it on the adult test at what should be a lower level?) was removed fairly quickly, and the spirals from pre-pre were added to pre-bronze in place of the 3's, with the spiral pattern from prelim taking the place of the pre-pre spirals that were in silver before.

For me, the "sticking point" on silver will be the FO-BI 3's.  I can't do them at speed, and in a large enough pattern.  The FI-BO are better, but I still fear it will be a while before I am ready to test either those.  The spiral pattern is improving quickly for me so I am not worried about it at this point.  The other things on the test I really don't have any problems with and could be ready to test anyt ime if it weren't for the other things. Silver seems to have more "hard" stuff packed into it than any of the standard track tests do.  Gold is sort of the same, borrowing two moves from intermediate - how does that make it easier for adults than standard track moves?  It's not!
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Jenna on October 04, 2011, 11:19:04 PM
sarahspins, I'm aware of all the changes that have been made, but I though the purpose of the redesigned 3-turn pattern was to keep the forward 3s in the level but make the pattern "easier" than the preliminary pattern.  I had the original preliminary 3 pattern when I tested, so I never skated the replacement pattern and don't know how it went over with judges.  What I was suggesting was that maybe the concept of keeping the same skill set, but creating different patterns would help with the comparison of standard track vs adult test standards.

I definitely agree with you that Silver has a lot of the hard moves pulled into it.  I think that's the most frustrating part.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: LilJen on October 05, 2011, 12:50:51 PM
Yep, plenty of people have trouble with the 8-step and the 3-turns. It does get problematic that you have moves from pre-juv AND juv on it. . . after well over 2 years with these I am FINALLY on the verge of being testable. It's been a LOT of work and frustration but oh MY am I a much better skater for it! I agree that it's a huge step up from bronze MITF.

WRT the pre-bronze 3-turn pattern: The problem was that the alternating 3s kind of require a certain amount of hip flexibility, which many adults do not have. Thus the revised pattern.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: icedancer on October 05, 2011, 01:00:29 PM
I skated as a kid but the longer I skate the more skills I have lost!! (This was not true in my 40s but the 50s have been... terrible!)

I stopped testing at Silver Moves.  I cannot do BI 3s anymore, period and definitely not with any speed, flow or consistency.

8-step mohawks - too slow, no flow

spirals - forget it

power pulls I could probably do if I worked on them for years - in fact I am working on them more consistently now than ever just to work on strength for all of my skating.

The only Move that I think I could pass (and maybe with extra points) would be the cross-strokes.  I find them quite easy as they are on the Pre-Gold and Gold Dances - the Paso Doble and the Argentine Tango.

Most of the skaters at my rink that tested up to Bronze have given up on Moves testing and many are no longer US Figure Skating members - I mean, why bother? (I have to be a member because I am a judge).

I do think that the Adults should have a different set of Moves than are on the Standard Moves test and it would be interesting to work with a group of like-minded skaters and (realistically-minded) coaches to come up with some different Moves.

As a judge it is hard to judge the Adults.  I try very hard to be kind and find something in the Moves that I like and give the skater the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their age, flexibility, etc. but find it hard especially on the Silver Moves.  We also don't see that many of them (for the above-stated reasons) - and actually I haven't seen that many Adult Bronze or Pre-Bronze lately either.

Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: PinkLaces on October 05, 2011, 01:04:16 PM
I passed through the Pre-Bronze Moves/FS and Bronze Moves/FS fairly quickly - 6 months for each of them.  I have been working on Silver Moves for a year and half.  I am nowhere near passing on any of them except maybe the cross strokes and on a good day the power pulls.  My 8 step mohawk is decent on my right side and crappy on the left side.  I struggle with the 3 turn patterns large enough. On a good day, I can get the spiral pattern and be stable, but need more extention/height on the spirals.

My opinion is that not only does the Silver Moves test have hard moves on it, but it is long. A lot of it when done properly is down in the knees which is also hard on adults.  I've said this before but I really think it needs to be split into 2 tests - Pre-Silver and Silver.  I can only afford 4-5 hours a week of ice time right now.  Splitting the tests in two parts would really help me in being able to focus my limited time.  It would also  help with the endurance of not having to take a long test.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Skittl1321 on October 05, 2011, 01:04:43 PM
I LOVED the pre-bronze 3-turn pattern.  I think it is sad they removed it, now inside 3s don't show up until silver, and at that point, you are expected to have mastery!  Where is the learning stage?



For Silver Moves, the kicker for me is the 8-step...absolutely terrifying.
The other moves I can do, but it depends on whether or not the judge is looking for the power expected from kids.  I think it is a mistake to have power pulls and cross rolls on the same test, because you really need to be able to do a strong back power pull to do a good back cross roll.

For the 3-turns, I had gotten pretty good at that move, but am no longer.  The only "tough" one is the back inside.


The NEW spirals are what made me give up on testing.  I am under 30, but have a hip injury that will not allow me to get my leg above my knee.  When it was straightline, I could get to mid thigh for just long enough.  But there is a big difference between one spiral and 5 or 6 of them.  (I had GREAT spirals when I started skating, but the fall on the Rhythm Blues took them away from me when I injured my hip.)

At least that means I don't have to bother with the 8-step anymore :)


Another consideration for ALL the moves tests, is that because you have to go around the rink in a certain direction I often have more difficulty in turning from forward to backward, while maintaining the power of the end pattern, to do the move down the other side of the rink than I do with the move itself (power pulls, cross rolls for example).  Now, with the pre-bronze crossovers done forward and backward in one pattern, I wouldn't be able to pass that test anymore- I cannot do a mohawk in that direction with that amount of power.  I really think you should be allowed to go either way around the rink to get rid of the bias toward Counter-clockwise skaters.  The move does not change at all.


Quote
Pre-Silver and Silver.  I can only afford 4-5 hours a week of ice time right now.  Splitting the tests in two parts would really help me in being able to focus my limited time.
This is a really good idea.  The Silver test is WAY too long.  (What's funny is the year before last all the changes were made with an eye towards making the tests shorter: hence combining the 8-step.  This year, the spirals lengthened the test quite a bit!)  And I think 4-5 hours is a luxury.  I trained for my bronze moves with 1 hour of ice a week.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: MimiG on October 05, 2011, 01:19:07 PM
I agree about splitting up the Silver test, and also that the skill progression needs some revision in the adult tests, overall. I'd actually make a pre-gold test too and revise and shorten each test to 4 patterns, since many (most?) adults don't have the same amount of ice time as the kids. I'd also be open to changing some of the patterns (especially "power" ones) to avoid the comparison with the kids - if a judge sees tons of kids each year, but only a few adults, it's got to be hard to get a real feel for what the adult standard should be, I think.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: PinkLaces on October 05, 2011, 01:28:15 PM
I agree about splitting up the Silver test, and also that the skill progression needs some revision in the adult tests, overall. I'd actually make a pre-gold test too and revise and shorten each test to 4 patterns, since many (most?) adults don't have the same amount of ice time as the kids. I'd also be open to changing some of the patterns (especially "power" ones) to avoid the comparison with the kids - if a judge sees tons of kids each year, but only a few adults, it's got to be hard to get a real feel for what the adult standard should be, I think.

I like changing up the power patterns, too.  I like that it would avoid the kid comparison.  The rule book would need to more specifically state what the standards are. 
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: icedancer on October 05, 2011, 01:32:52 PM
It's great that we are having this discussion actually - I think it may help MOVE things in a positive direction for all of us! :)
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Elsa on October 05, 2011, 02:53:42 PM
Another consideration for ALL the moves tests, is that because you have to go around the rink in a certain direction I often have more difficulty in turning from forward to backward, while maintaining the power of the end pattern, to do the move down the other side of the rink than I do with the move itself (power pulls, cross rolls for example).  Now, with the pre-bronze crossovers done forward and backward in one pattern, I wouldn't be able to pass that test anymore- I cannot do a mohawk in that direction with that amount of power.  I really think you should be allowed to go either way around the rink to get rid of the bias toward Counter-clockwise skaters.  The move does not change at all.

OMG, yes, please, please, PLEASE!  I can sort of, sometimes, do the mohawk, but I never know when it's going to work, and when it's not, and I'm SO scared of falling on it because when I do, I fall hard.  People keep telling me "it's good to learn things in your bad direction - you'll be a better skater for it."  Really?  Then I think CCW skaters should have to test it in their bad direction too.  That's fair, right?  They'll be better skaters for it.  ;)

I haven't tested it - I just moved on to bronze moves, and from there I'll go on to learn silver.  Testing is expensive, and I'm not going to bother with it if I'm not sure I'll pass. 
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: FigureSpins on October 05, 2011, 03:00:15 PM
Are you talking about the Forward and Backward Crossover pattern from Preliminary and Pre-Bronze Moves?  You can start the forward crossovers in either direction, so instead of doing the CCW forward crossovers first, do the CW ones, then your swingroll-edgechange-mohawk (sw-ec-mo) is done on your left foot instead of the right.

Quote from: USFSA Tests Rulebook 2011-2012
Forward and backward crossovers
The skater will perform forward crossovers in a figure eight pattern. It is expected that the skater will perform the transition between circles on one foot. Four to six crossovers per circle are recommended. Upon completing the forward figure eight, the skater will perform a swing roll and change of edge to an open mohawk in order to turn around and continue the figure eight pattern with four to six backward crossovers per circle. This move may start in either direction. Introductory steps are optional.
Focus: Continuous flow and strength

I just noticed that statement in the rulebook last week.  (I have one student who always wants to make her patterns "unique" by using any and all options, lol.)  I don't accept "I can't" from skaters, to be honest, but since you have some physical limitations, I would say to start on the other side.

I always try to stay as close as possible to the illustrated patterns, just to make it easier on the judges, but a lot of the pattern descriptions state that the pattern can be started in either foot/direction.   

Now, if the issue is that the sw-ec-mo is out of a skater's skill set on EITHER foot, sorry, I would say you weren't ready to test.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Skittl1321 on October 05, 2011, 03:21:58 PM
Oh, that is nice to know for that move, thank you for.fixing my misconception, but it is moot for because I am past that test.

The problem now is switching from the fwd side to the bwd side on power pulls and cross strokes. I can't do that mohawk (or a three turn.. ccw is the issue not the turn type) that fast. As was said above, yes, I should be able to and getting better on my bad side makes me a better skater, but why shouldn't ccw skaters be "challenged" in the same way?

This is a fear/adult issue. I have a very dominant then direction due to 20 years of dance. I don't know if kids really face this.sidedness to the same extent.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: FigureSpins on October 05, 2011, 03:38:44 PM
The Forward and backward power change of edge pulls and Forward and backward free skate cross strokes patterns in Adult Silver can start on either foot.  The intro and end patterns are optional, so you can do whatever you want to change from forward to backward.  Even if you started in the illustrated direction, you could turn in your comfortable direction and step over into a back crossover to traverse the end pattern with back crossovers.

Starting on the other foot would make the traffic pattern at a test session more difficult to manage, but it is allowed under the rules.  That's to accommodate the CW skaters.  I think changing the rules to have some of the patterns start on CW-skater preferred sides would result in everyone using the alternate starting foot, lol.

I think the forward edge spiral pattern is the only Silver move that doesn't allow for the skater to start on either foot.



Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: sarahspins on October 05, 2011, 04:48:01 PM
Can I ask the obvious?  WHY do so many find it hard to do turns in both directions?  Particularly mohawks?  I don't understand since I use both direction a lot when I am skating, particularly the inside mohawks, I use the RFI (CCW) to set up for most edge jumps, but then I use a LFI (CW) to set up for most forward spins (unless I'm doing the 3 entrance).  I don't find one harder than the other because I've worked on them a lot, and I do them a lot - they are almost second nature, as they honestly should be for anyone who is ready to test at any level.

I don't personally feel that being a CCW skater gives me any advantage on the moves.  End patterns are not where I struggle - if I struggle with a given move it's actually the move itself and not what happens in between each side, and I would presume I could actually do any of the moves CW and it wouldn't bother me.  If what happens in the end pattern was really that hard, I would put more energy into fixing whatever I was struggling with.  I don't really see the "bias" towards CCW skaters in the moves.

I know that some adult onset skaters like to point at a skater like me and say "well you learned as a kid, what you have to say doesn't matter" but let me make it clear - I stepped back on the ice two years ago after taking 10 years off, and nothing has come back to me easily.  Even stroking was challenging at first.. forget any turns, or skating backwards, or jumping, even spinning was really scary.  I've worked really hard to regain skills and often my progress is slower than I would like, but I still get out there and I try.  I sometimes fall and I often feel pretty stupid trying to do things that "used to be" easy that just aren't anymore.  Apart from teh fact that I have a fundamental understanding of the mechanics of many moves/jumps/spins whatever, that doesn't usually translate into being able to do them right away.  I've never once used the "well I'm an adult so I can't do ___" as an excuse.  Some days I get out on the ice and my body doesn't want to cooperate (maybe my knees hurt, maybe my back is sore, etc), so I work on what I can.. and some days that means I do nothing but moves and no jumps or spins, and sometimes I just work on figures.  Basically that means I avoid certain moves if I know they are going to hurt me, but I am still working on other things.  I don't get nearly as much time on the ice as I would like - if I get two days to skate about an hour each time I'm doing pretty good.  Some weeks I don't even get that much.

It's hard to make progress when you have limitations, I know and completely understand that, but I think when any skater sets themselves up with the mindset that they can't do something, then of course they're not going to be able to... that's your basic self-fulfilling prophecy.

Now, back on the topic of the adult track moves, I wish they could be broken apart more... the adult track really seems to try to pack "too much" into each test.  Compare Pre-pre to Pre-Bronze and Pre-B has an extra (harder) move.  How discouraging for an adult skater who is considering testing for the first time.  Why even bother testing adult track at that point?  Both tests are pass/fail but Pre-B is technically more difficult... really THAT makes no sense.  Bronze starts and ends with moves from Pre-Juv!

I am all for offering alternatives (such as if you can't do spirals, maybe an alternative step pattern or something?) and lower passing standards for adults if those numbers actually MEAN something in real-world testing, but the way it seems right now, the adult track is harder than it needs to be, and it's definitely not encouraging for new adult skaters... or even returning adult skaters who didn't test very high before (I had just passed pre-pre and got injured - and I never renewed my club membership after that, so I never tested again).  I have posted before but I'm 99% sure I am going to continue testing standard track moves and not worry about the adult track apart from the FS levels, where the changes they've made to those tests actually make sense compared to standard track.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Elsa on October 05, 2011, 04:52:21 PM
Ooh, thank you FigureSpins!  Did it say that in the 10-11 book too?  Our coach said we had to start off CCW - that the other direction wasn't an option.  Hmm, I guess I will have to pay closer attention to these things myself.  *blushes*
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: MimiG on October 05, 2011, 05:04:09 PM
I don't really see the "bias" towards CCW skaters in the moves.

I'm just going to go ahead and say you don't see the bias because you are a CCW skater (as am I) - I have an CW skating adult student that skated as a kid, but was off the ice a long time (longer than 10 years). She skates synchro, so she is very ambidextrous with her turns. MOST end patterns don't phase her in the slightest, but once in a while a combination of steps is a major challenge - not in the individual turn or steps, but just in getting everything coordinated and turning against her natural direction AND maintaining speed, flow and power. If it we do those same steps CW, they pose no problem and the extra practice we have to spend on them could go to improving the main exercise. (And, yes, in the end it makes her a stronger skater, but most CCW skaters never even try the end patterns in the other direction and never have to work on them that way at all...)
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: FigureSpins on October 05, 2011, 05:08:56 PM
Ooh, thank you FigureSpins!  Did it say that in the 10-11 book too?  Our coach said we had to start off CCW - that the other direction wasn't an option.  Hmm, I guess I will have to pay closer attention to these things myself.  *blushes*
It's easy to overlook the "either foot" notation because it's not on the page with the pattern.  I never check unless I think I'm wrong. 

The notations are in the pattern descriptions at the start of each test's section.  The tests rulebook have always noted when there is this type of "Start on Either Foot" flexibility, including 2010-2011: http://oregonskating.org/PDF/2010-11%20Tests%20Book.pdf

Caveat: the Prel edge spiral pattern was not included as part of Adult Silver Moves in 2010-2011.  Instead, the Pre-Prel spirals on flats were required last season, but they allowed the skater to start on either foot.


ETA: Hmmm...found this note in the Compulsory Figures pdf:

Quote
Unless previously announced, the starting foot "a" or "b" shall be drawn by the Referee or Assistant Referee and announced and posted at the first official practice session of the competition. Succeeding figures in the list shall be started on alternate feet.

I'd have screwed that up, for sure.


I don't that adults have real difficulties with opposite-direction turns initially due to a loss of strength and flexibility.  It takes a great deal of effort and exercise to build muscle control and joint flexibility, which many adults just can't find the time to do.  Time is the other issue: finding the time to skate extra hours each week while working full-time and/or caring for a family creates significant obstacles.  Most rinks don't offer figure skating times that are good for someone with a 9-5 job. 
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Skittl1321 on October 05, 2011, 05:20:49 PM
I don't personally feel that being a CCW skater gives me any advantage on the moves.  End patterns are not where I struggle - if I struggle with a given move it's actually the move itself and not what happens in between each side, and I would presume I could actually do any of the moves CW and it wouldn't bother me.  If what happens in the end pattern was really that hard, I would put more energy into fixing whatever I was struggling with.  I don't really see the "bias" towards CCW skaters in the moves.


Sure must be nice!  You clearly don't know how frustrating it is to be able to do really really nice cross rolls, forward and back, with lovely edge rip, but not be able to test them because you can't turn from forward to backward going around the rink in that direction.  And yet, going around the rink in the other direction: no problems at all, but that isn't allowed.  I don't have them anymore, but 2 years ago I could.  It was the END PATTERNS, not the moves that were preventing me from testing.  (Now, it is the moves- having to relearn everything post injury sucks).  You can't see bias because it doesn't affect you.  Maybe you have equally great mohawks, and that's fantastic.  I don't.  If the point of the move is to test my mohawks, why does it only test one of them?  

And don't imply I don't put energy into fixing them- that's just plain rude.  I've been working for years to improve my end patterns.  For me they are flat out harder than anything on the silver test other than the 8-step mohawk in my bad direction.   That cannot possibly be the intention.

Quote from: FigureSpins
Starting on the other foot would make the traffic pattern at a test session more difficult to manage, but it is allowed under the rules.
Starting on the other foot doesn't affect anything, I don't think. These moves go straight down the rink, and regardless of what foot you are on, you still have to get around the edge of the rink CCW.   If the end patterns are truly optional I don't know why coaches here won't let me do them counter directional, maybe there is judge bias?  I'll have to fight that harder.  Although, turning counter directional kind of messes up the flow (well compared to people who can do it the "right" way) because you step down on the wrong foot, but at least I can do it.  I always turned opposite the team in synchro.  I can do the mohawks at slow speed (like 5-step) but not at full power like you need for power pulls and cross rolls.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: FigureSpins on October 05, 2011, 05:24:19 PM
I was thinking of the double- or triple-paneled testing.  When I took Pre-Prel Moves, the three of us went follow-the-leader style with each skater giving the one before them a big head start.  We all did the patterns as shown in the book, so it wasn't a big deal.  If the middle skater wanted to start on the other foot/side, it would have been a different story.  If the session is run with "alternating starts," where each skater has to complete the move before the next skater begins, you're right: no big deal. 

Not to beat a dead horse, but the patterns do allow different starts for CW skaters - it's your test sessions or judges that are the obstacle here, not the rulebook.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Skittl1321 on October 05, 2011, 05:28:32 PM
I meant if the test was double- or triple-paneled, the skaters wouldn't all be going in the same direction.  I guess if they handle it one-at-a-time, it really isn't a big deal - you're right.

Yes, if they allowed skating in the opposite direction.  But couldn't they just double panel you with skaters who chose to do the same?

But if it is just a matter of starting on the other foot, it doesn't make any difference to the test at all - the move still goes the same way. (That's why starting on the other foot doesn't fix the problem... except in the case of the pre-bronze moves, in which case that is a very good thing they allow that.  Since mohawks didn't used to be on the PB test at all, I was shocked they were requiring it.  Like I said, I don't think I'd be able to do that now, although, of course my crossovers were MUCH slower when I actually took PB.)
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Elsa on October 05, 2011, 05:32:31 PM
Can I ask the obvious?  WHY do so many find it hard to do turns in both directions?  Particularly mohawks?  I don't understand since I use both direction a lot when I am skating, particularly the inside mohawks, I use the RFI (CCW) to set up for most edge jumps, but then I use a LFI (CW) to set up for most forward spins (unless I'm doing the 3 entrance).  I don't find one harder than the other because I've worked on them a lot, and I do them a lot - they are almost second nature, as they honestly should be for anyone who is ready to test at any level.

I can only speak for myself here, but the mohawk is really the only one that gives me A LOT of difficulty in my "wrong" direction, and it's not from lack of working on it (thanks for implying that it is though).  It has improved (though it continues to feel very awkward), and I'm sure it will continue to improve some, but falls now are a bit riskier and taking it with speed and power in that pattern pretty much guarantees a hard fall if I do go down.  I can't risk that. 

That said, like Mimi mentioned, I really do have to think harder about how to do turns when I do the opposite direction.  I do so much better when I start learning a pattern CW instead of CCW.  It makes more sense to me somehow and then I can flip it around and CCW is easier.  If I start learning the pattern CCW, it takes much longer. 


I don't personally feel that being a CCW skater gives me any advantage on the moves.  End patterns are not where I struggle - if I struggle with a given move it's actually the move itself and not what happens in between each side, and I would presume I could actually do any of the moves CW and it wouldn't bother me.  If what happens in the end pattern was really that hard, I would put more energy into fixing whatever I was struggling with.  I don't really see the "bias" towards CCW skaters in the moves.

Because the end patterns favor your natural direction.  Try flipping them around and see how that works for you.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Elsa on October 05, 2011, 05:38:16 PM
It's easy to overlook the "either foot" notation because it's not on the page with the pattern.  I never check unless I think I'm wrong. 

The notations are in the pattern descriptions at the start of each test's section.  The tests rulebook have always noted when there is this type of "Start on Either Foot" flexibility, including 2010-2011: http://oregonskating.org/PDF/2010-11%20Tests%20Book.pdf

Good to know - thank you!  :)
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: AgnesNitt on October 05, 2011, 05:45:43 PM
the Argentine Tango.

I do think that the Adults should have a different set of Moves than are on the Standard Moves test and it would be interesting to work with a group of like-minded skaters and (realistically-minded) coaches to come up with some different Moves.


I have some ideas. So include me in.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: FigureSpins on October 05, 2011, 06:09:26 PM
Democracy in action - I love it!  It doesn't hurt to talk about things, or even lay out some ideas.  Just be aware that the USFSA would need to be polled on their receptiveness to new ideas.  It seems to me that they're moving towards a "one size fits all" structure with varied levels of passing based on age.

One thing to consider, though: if the existing Adult-track moves tests were split apart, you'd have to pay for more test sessions.  That *might* be offset by a lower failure rate, saving time, money and discouragements.

Example: a skater fails Silver twice before finally passing on the third try. She or he could have pulled off Pre-Silver and Silver in one attempt each.  The Pre-Silver/Silver setup would save one test session and fee.  Not to mention the psychological benefit of passing on the first attempt.  However, a skater who can handle the current Silver setup would have to pay for an extra test if it were split in two.  Just pointing it out...
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: aussieskater on October 05, 2011, 06:10:17 PM
I'm pea-green with envy that the US has a system where adults have their own testing stream.  Downunder, we pass the same tests as the kids, to the same standard - no allowance made for geriatricity!!

I know that some adult onset skaters like to point at a skater like me and say "well you learned as a kid, what you have to say doesn't matter" but let me make it clear - I stepped back on the ice two years ago after taking 10 years off, and nothing has come back to me easily.

Sarahspins, I can see where you're coming from, but there is one thing you might be forgetting - skaters who learn as adults have likely never before done any form of exercise which forces bi-rotational ability.  The younger a person is when they start overcoming rotational bias, the less ingrained that bias will be in later life.

As a result an adult coming to skating for the first time (fresh meat!) will have to overcome a lifelong rotational bias, with likely no experience of turning the "other" way.

There does seem to be a strong bias to the CCW skater in testing.  No surprise I guess, when you consider that the majority of skaters are CCW.  I'm CW, but as a not-very-good-dancer and synchro skater, I'm having to learn all the turns we use CCW - pattern dance choreo is set, and there's no allowance made for us lefties in synchro.  (Try doing the European CW - it's fun!)

I'm interested in why I have difficulty turning CCW, so asked my dance teacher about floor dance.  She teaches ballet, contemp and flamenco, and has experience in tap, hip hop and ballroom, so she knows her stuff.  Her answer was that most floor dance choreo tends to focus more on one rotational direction than the other. Yes they do teach both directions in class, but the exams don't necessarily test both sides evenly, and if you watch a dance school show at the end of the year, most of the turns will be one direction only.

As far as I can tell, floor dance is really the only "rotational" activity out there apart from figure skating?  Maybe some of the other posters with direct experience in the various disciplines of floor dance might have some input here.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: icedancer on October 05, 2011, 07:07:53 PM

Example: a skater fails Silver twice before finally passing on the third try. She or he could have pulled off Pre-Silver and Silver in one attempt each.  The Pre-Silver/Silver setup would save one test session and fee.  Not to mention the psychological benefit of passing on the first attempt.  However, a skater who can handle the current Silver setup would have to pay for an extra test if it were split in two.  Just pointing it out...

Back in the "Figures" days you could take 1/2 of the upper tests or you could take the whole thing.  Maybe something like that could be instituted for the Moves.

I also think that choosing from a menu of Moves would be great - like substitue [xxx] for spirals or something...

Great topic.

I am disheartened by the one skater at our rink who has taken the Silver Moves at least 5 times - she will not give up which is great but I am sure she is frustrated.  The rest of us have just given up and are just enjoying skating for the sake of... skating!
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: sarahspins on October 05, 2011, 07:16:27 PM
Because the end patterns favor your natural direction.  Try flipping them around and see how that works for you.

Why do you assume that I never skate around the rink CW?  My coach has been working with me on some "full ice" patterns to build speed and confidence and the pattern for toe loops and flips has me going CW around the end of the rink (complete with two CW turns).  The beginning of that pattern (fw crossovers, mohawk, etc) is essentially the same as I would follow if I were to skate most of the moves patterns CW around the rink. I haven't had any problems skating that pattern - where I have problems is actually jumping since everything in me says "no, don't do it, you're going too fast!!" (though the more I do it, the easier that is getting though).

And don't imply I don't put energy into fixing them- that's just plain rude.  I've been working for years to improve my end patterns.  For me they are flat out harder than anything on the silver test other than the 8-step mohawk in my bad direction.   That cannot possibly be the intention.

I'm NOT trying to say that you (or anyone else) hasn't worked hard on them (or isn't still)... what I am saying is that if it were me, I'd keeping working on it until it got better.  I'm not suggesting that you aren't, I'm just stating that it is the obvious solution because the improvement isn't going to just happen magically, it does take time.  You say you struggle with the 8 step too, so clearly it isn't "just" an end-pattern thing for you, and it has to do with turning CCW.  

I can understand that turning is harder in the direction that isn't natural for you, but everyone deals with that - I still do, back 3's scare me more CW than CCW, though curiously I can do the backwards CW brackets easier than the 3's. CW twizzles make me super dizzy, while most of the more basic turns aren't a problem any more..  I know that the twizzles (in terms of being so disorienting) will only get better the more I work on them, so I work on my "bad" side more than the easy one.  I had never done any twizzles at all until a few months ago and it's going to be a looooong time before I test them, but it's the time I spend on them now that will make a difference later.  If I waited until intermediate to even think about twizzles, I'd sure be in a world of hurt by the time I got there because the CW ones would seem impossible and I'd probably be stuck on that test for a long time because they don't come that easily for me.  Hopefully when I get past prelim and pre-juv and juvenile moves, the twizzles will be easy, because by then I will have spent a *lot* of time working on them.  If they don't, then I will simply keep working on them until they are.

Sarahspins, I can see where you're coming from, but there is one thing you might be forgetting - skaters who learn as adults have likely never before done any form of exercise which forces bi-rotational ability.  The younger a person is when they start overcoming rotational bias, the less ingrained that bias will be in later life.

Okay, but reality is that I only started skating (as a teenager) a few years ahead of some of the skaters posting in this thread.  I didn't skate as a little kid and I never did anything that forced bi-rotational ability (I played tennis off and on in middle school, and that's pretty much it as far as sports went).  I knew right away when I started skating that I was a CCW skater.. spinning was just so much easier that direction.  That preference didn't stop me from working on turns in both directions because I think when I was first learning there was a LOT of emphasis put on being able to do them all both directions, and we weren't really given an opportunity to "favor" a side.  Maybe why I don't get it is because I skate with adult-onset skaters who don't seem to have as strong of a rotational bias for turns as I see being posted here.  What I mean is beyond simply preferring one direction, but flat out saying that they find the other direction almost impossible.  That's what I was asking about - I want to understand where that statement comes from, and I do think I understand it better now.  ;D

One thing to consider, though: if the existing Adult-track moves tests were split apart, you'd have to pay for more test sessions.  That *might* be offset by a lower failure rate, saving time, money and discouragements.

I agree, though if a shorter test (3 or 4 elements) carried a smaller test fee, it would probably work out better for most people than failing and retaking a test several times if they were hung up on ONE element and the others were fine.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Skittl1321 on October 05, 2011, 07:36:16 PM
You say you struggle with the 8 step too, so clearly it isn't "just" an end-pattern thing for you, and it has to do with turning CCW.  

Yes, it is clearly a CCW turning issue.  But the point is, the moves I have trouble with end patterns for are not designed to test turning, yet it it turning that is preventing me from being succcessful.   I spent weeks searching youtube for alternate entries to moves to find something that would work on my Bronze moves to allow me to be able to turn around to start the alternating back crossovers and the back outside edges- both moves that were very strong, but I couldn't turn to start them.  But even those got to start at a standstill- for power pulls and crossrolls, having the power of the entry is essential for the move, having a weak turn: which supposedly is not part of the move, puts me at a disadvantage for the tested part of the move.  This is CCW bias.


Like I said before- I have 20 years of CW turning in dance working against me.  Well trained ballerinas should be equal in both directions, I wasn't "well trained".  Most recreational dancers aren't.  For every 50 turns (spin) we did CW we would do 1 CCW.  That just wasn't the normal direction.  

It isn't that I don't practice.  I now practice 5:1 on CCW vs CW turns.  For every CW 8-step I do, I do 5 CCW.  For ever circle of inside mohawks I do CW, I do 5 of them CCW.  I practice heavily on that side - it doesn't seem to be helping.  My mohawks are pitiful at speed, okay slow.  But I can do all my half jumps in both directions and do 3 rotations of a CCW one foot spin and a respectable 2 foot spin.  It is mostly a mohawk issue (although my right inside 3 turn is pretty pathetic right now too- I don't know what happened to that.  I never seemed to get it back after the hip injury.  It used to be okay, except at synchro speeds.)  

Quote
I agree, though if a shorter test (3 or 4 elements) carried a smaller test fee, it would probably work out better for most people than failing and retaking a test several times if they were hung up on ONE element and the others were fine. 
It isn't just test fees though. It is ice and lesson time.  To get ready for a long test takes a lot more time than it does to get ready for a shorter one.  You have to upkeep ALL the moves, so even once they are 'ready' some time is spent on them.  I know you shouldn't drop moves after passing them, but they don't need lesson time.  So if the easier moves are passed, you can concentrate more of your ice time on the harder moves, rather than some on the harder moves, and some on making sure you don't lose the ones you already have.  Shorter tests would be much better, if only because silver is just insanely long.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: AgnesNitt on October 05, 2011, 07:45:03 PM
If part of the reason for 'toughening' up adult moves is to keep up the standards for the booziest that is Adult National, maybe USFSA could introduce a test sequence that is for people who want to have skating goals but don't want to go to AN.  This could in some ways be focused more on attractive footwork and style rather than zipping along at the speed of light.  Call it "Footwork Track".

Everything in Basic LTS should be covered in some form on Pre-bronze. The fact that FI3 doesn't show up until silver is weird, it should be on PB.
I'd like to see FO/I8 on pre-Bronze. Waltz 8 on Bronze, BO/I8 on Silver and Threes to center on gold.
I'd like to see brackets introduced at Bronze, rockers at Silver, counters at Gold. Why? because even if you're half crippled you should be able to do those turns. They're basic turns.
I'd take the power moves (e.g. power pulls) and tell the skater to do them at least halfway down the rink--extra points for the full length, but halfway is a pass.
Spirals should move to freestyle. If I could figure out a place to put in a choctaw (Gold?) I would. Even if you don't have a lot of power or flexibility due to injuries you should be able to do nice footwork with presence and style, and if it was carefully planned it could support both moves, freestyle and dance.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Skittl1321 on October 05, 2011, 07:51:29 PM
Agnes- these counters, rockers, and choctaws you are proposing, I'm assuming that is at a snails speed?  Because otherwise HAHAHAHA.  If we aren't even getting adults to do all the three turns until silver now, that is NEVER going to happen.  Choctaws are also pretty limited by closed hips, so lots of your "half crippled" skaters won't be able to do them.  I know I can't due to my hip injury. (I could do them at a standstill before it - never with speed.)

The power pulls are only half rink right now, then you switch feet.  Are you saying you'd do 1/4 rink on each foot?  That doesn't give you time to show power before changing...

I do think it is a travesty FI3 isn't until silver.  It used to be on PB in the special adult move pattern.

Also, if not held to figure standards, I think the Waltz 8 is much easier than the FO/I8.  I think the progression they have now of it on PB and the edges on bronze makes a lot more sense.  The circle 8 should come after the half lobe edges, not at the same time.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: AgnesNitt on October 05, 2011, 08:05:12 PM
Well Skittl I can see your points. I think FO/I8 is easier than Waltz 8, but that's just me. If I were queen we'd be doing patch.

Power pulls only half down the rink? Man I've gotta put my glasses on when I read those diagrams :( .

I was hesitant to mention choctaws, but i have closed hips and i think I can do them.

What we really need is a scheduled matrix of moves, so that you can advance up the levels as a training and goal setting tool. Skaters can test the moves up the schedule, and if you can't do something on one side, you just don't get a check in the box. There would be no requirement to pass all the moves at one time for any level. This means the levels could have a lot more moves in them, but you could break them down into sub-tests as you improve.






Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: aussieskater on October 05, 2011, 08:42:31 PM

Okay, but reality is that I only started skating (as a teenager) a few years ahead of some of the skaters posting in this thread.

Any period pre-adulthood is an advantage.  Many of us (me included) didn't start at all until well into our thirties and beyond.  I was almost 40.

I didn't skate as a little kid and I never did anything that forced bi-rotational ability (I played tennis off and on in middle school, and that's pretty much it as far as sports went).

Yes, that's exactly the type of rotational "experience" (or lack of it!) I mean.

I knew right away when I started skating that I was a CCW skater.. spinning was just so much easier that direction.  That preference didn't stop me from working on turns in both directions because I think when I was first learning there was a LOT of emphasis put on being able to do them all both directions, and we weren't really given an opportunity to "favor" a side.

My coach was and remains of the same view, and it's expected that my CCW rotation must be as good as my CW rotation.  Like you and Skittl, I have to spend lots more time practising my "bad" side!

AgnesNitt, I love your idea of a "footwork" track.  I'm with you on the whole figures thing, and actually wonder if the figures training of years gone by forced bi-direction rotation?  I wish we could still train and test figures, but there's no such testing stream down here any more.  There are only a few coaches left who can teach them, and probably very few judges left either.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: fsk8r on October 06, 2011, 05:13:34 AM
I'm another one green with envy about the adult testing stream. We equally have the one size fits all. It starts getting very difficult once power becomes the focus of all the tests. I'm an adult starting skater, but I've nearly got to the half way point.
However, I find all this talk about CW skaters not liking CCW turns weird. I'm left handed, the first thing I remember being told is that it's a right handed world, get over it (this from my left-handed grandfather). Most of the time people don't realise I'm left handed as I'll slice bread with whichever hand is free, etc. I'm also a CW skater (so I've not even made that easy for myself). Yes, it means I've got directional preference with my turns, but I've also discovered that once I work really hard to make the CCW ones better, they end up indistinguishable from the CW ones. Some of my preferences are also more to do with left and right foot and not even turn direction, sometimes it's to do with body positioning. I prefer stepping out of the circle to move from the backwards 8 to the forwards one doing figure of 8 crossovers, it doesn't actually matter which way around I go, I step out. However coach says it looks nicer when I step into the circle to change back to forwards. It's just something I work on, we're all peculiar in our own unique ways.

However, there's one thing in all this discussion which confuses me. There's a lot of fuss about end patterns on the moves tests. Are they actually written down anywhere or are they just things the coaches like to see and the judges aren't really marking? In the UK tests the end patterns aren't stipulated anywhere, and the tests clearly say "optional steps" to start. Yes the coaches feel it's the overall impression to the judges so they don't want sloppy skating anywhere, but you still have the flexibility to do funny end patterns/transitions to turn the way you want to turn. I've actually got one choreographed into my choctaw pattern so that I can start on the other foot as per the test description. It involves me coming around the end of the rink CCW and then looping back on myself so that I do a small CW circle to start the pattern. I'm sure things like that can be done for most of the exercises people are describing as having issues with (unless they are prescribed in the test).


Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: MadMac on October 06, 2011, 08:58:22 AM
fsk8r hit it on the nose. Very few of the moves specify an end pattern. They say "end pattern optional." The skater and coach are free to choreograph that piece as they see fit. Some coaches are reluctant to "rock the boat" by doing something a bit different, but here's where being an adult skater can really have its advantages. Yes, adult bodies have stubborn "issues" to manage, but adults also are gifted with more experience at the art of reasoning and persuasion. Convince your coach to help you design an end pattern that compliments your skills. It's not difficult to manipulate the end pattern to use a CW mohawk in place of a CCW mohawk.

One example: take  1 or 2 deep CCW fwd crossovers to turn the corner & angle your line of travel toward the top of the goalie crease, do your CW mohawk around the crease, then wide step(L). Now rotate the shoulders/head R and you are ready to look over your R side and step into Bk CCW crossovers to complete your end pattern. (Hope this makes sense -- much easier to show then to explain).

The coach should be happy to help adjust these things for you. Really, it IS allowed.
I once had a coach who insisted that I place the figure 8 crossovers pattern on the width of the rink on the two hockey circles "because that's how everyone does it." I wanted to turn the move lengthwise so my long legs could use bigger circles. Coach said no, even tho I pointed out where the rulebook said either was acceptable. On test day the judges made me reskate the move on the lengthwise pattern. Coach's jaw dropped - -

Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: fsk8r on October 06, 2011, 09:33:32 AM
The coach should be happy to help adjust these things for you. Really, it IS allowed.
I once had a coach who insisted that I place the figure 8 crossovers pattern on the width of the rink on the two hockey circles "because that's how everyone does it." I wanted to turn the move lengthwise so my long legs could use bigger circles. Coach said no, even tho I pointed out where the rulebook said either was acceptable. On test day the judges made me reskate the move on the lengthwise pattern. Coach's jaw dropped - -

I think I'm lucky. The optional nature of things is well emphasised in the test structure and the coaches understand what's requirement and what's fluff which makes it look nice overall. On one of the tests there is 3 turns around the circle. It clearly states that these may be joined in a figure 8 pattern or else as two separate circles. I learnt it as two separate circles (it's easier practicing on a hockey circle) and when coach wanted to move it onto a figure of 8 pattern, I queried it. Coach checked book and left it as it was. Judges didn't say anything about it. The text also said how many turns to expect around a hockey circle and state that it's to do with the size of the skater. Little kids with little legs may do more turns. Big tall adults might need less. There's a minimum number needed for the exercise so the big ones might need to do two circles worth to complete the minimum number.
And the judges tend to write their comments on the end patterns. There's nothing for them to watch.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Skate@Delaware on October 06, 2011, 01:44:41 PM
I'm working on Silver moves (when I can)...some confusion about the mohawk on the 8-step mohawk sequence. My coach says it's an outside mohawk. The "educational video" shows the guy stepping really wide (I know these just demo the move). So, how should I do it (and how to keep from killing myself on these?)

also, any tips for the BI 3-turn? Or the backward cross strokes? What seems to make these work better? (I know I need lots of practice on these)

I'm thinking it will take me about 2-3 years before I can even THINK about testing these moves. :o
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Skittl1321 on October 06, 2011, 02:01:37 PM
The 8 step mohawk is DEFINITELY outside mohawks.  If you look at the diagram, it is very clearly marked as a mohawk going from LFO to RBO or RFO to LBO depending on the side you are on.  I just watched the video, and he is pretty clearly doing a mohawk to me.  Maybe you are used to seeing a more closed one that sets down at the instep?  Do it the way your hips allow you. I like mine more open like the video shows.

For back cross strokes (which before I changed my blade was my strongest move) for me it was all about getting a strong back power pull (just the pull, you don't need the ability to power them all the way down the rink to transfer the skill), and then learning how to Schaeffer push (that push off the back outside edge, apparently it is a figure thing).  But you have to have the power pulls first, IMO.  (Probably why they are on the previous test in the standard stream.)

BI3- uh... yeah. Those.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: aussieskater on October 06, 2011, 04:36:02 PM
If wiki is to be believed (always a risk!  ;)), here's a classic example of CCW bias in the testing stream:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ice_Skating_Association#Skate_UK_Star_Levels_.28formerly_known_as_Passport.29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ice_Skating_Association#Skate_UK_Star_Levels_.28formerly_known_as_Passport.29)

Check out the prescribed step sequence elements in the Silver and Gold UK Star levels in ice dancing.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Isk8NYC on October 06, 2011, 08:22:35 PM
If wiki is to be believed (always a risk!  ;)), here's a classic example of CCW bias in the testing stream:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ice_Skating_Association#Skate_UK_Star_Levels_.28formerly_known_as_Passport.29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ice_Skating_Association#Skate_UK_Star_Levels_.28formerly_known_as_Passport.29)

Check out the prescribed step sequence elements in the Silver and Gold UK Star levels in ice dancing.
I can tell that you know that wikis aren't always complete or accurate.  Does the NISA rulebook (not the wiki) say anything about being allowed to reverse the pattern?

The ISI doesn't have it written on the patterns, but their Dance Step Sequences are reversible, although most of them have turns in both directions.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Skate@Delaware on October 06, 2011, 10:28:12 PM
The 8 step mohawk is DEFINITELY outside mohawks.  If you look at the diagram, it is very clearly marked as a mohawk going from LFO to RBO or RFO to LBO depending on the side you are on.  I just watched the video, and he is pretty clearly doing a mohawk to me.  Maybe you are used to seeing a more closed one that sets down at the instep?  Do it the way your hips allow you. I like mine more open like the video shows.

For back cross strokes (which before I changed my blade was my strongest move) for me it was all about getting a strong back power pull (just the pull, you don't need the ability to power them all the way down the rink to transfer the skill), and then learning how to Schaeffer push (that push off the back outside edge, apparently it is a figure thing).  But you have to have the power pulls first, IMO.  (Probably why they are on the previous test in the standard stream.)

BI3- uh... yeah. Those.
Thanks, um I think lol! Schaeffer push, ugh I haven't done that in a few years!!!! Guess it would help if I had power pulls under my belt....which I don't. Argh!  :sweat
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: sarahspins on October 07, 2011, 12:26:07 AM
Thanks, um I think lol! Schaeffer push, ugh I haven't done that in a few years!!!!

Knee bend helps a lot too - my coach had me doing lots of those pushes from a stand still when I was having trouble doing them correctly at speed.  Both knees need to bend, just like a plié.  Getting the cross/push is only part of it, the other is 'pulling' that BO edge to gain more power before the next one (which is where knowing how to do the power pulls helps, but in think it can be learned without having those yet). Do either of those things without the other and the move doesn't work very well.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: fsk8r on October 07, 2011, 07:57:38 AM
If wiki is to be believed (always a risk!  ;)), here's a classic example of CCW bias in the testing stream:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ice_Skating_Association#Skate_UK_Star_Levels_.28formerly_known_as_Passport.29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ice_Skating_Association#Skate_UK_Star_Levels_.28formerly_known_as_Passport.29)

Check out the prescribed step sequence elements in the Silver and Gold UK Star levels in ice dancing.

Check out all Ice Dances! They all go CCW around the rink. None go CW.
The prescribed step sequences on the Star Levels are all parts of different dances.
Although I can't really comment beyond all that as I was ready for my first NISA level (this is the last section of LTS) when I was signed off for these tests ,and passed all 3 free levels in 15mins. Coach didn't really care, as I'd have to get everything sorted out properly for the real tests.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: aussieskater on October 07, 2011, 07:23:34 PM
I can tell that you know that wikis aren't always complete or accurate.  Does the NISA rulebook (not the wiki) say anything about being allowed to reverse the pattern?

You are right - I should provided the link to the direct document - here it is:  http://www.iceskating.org.uk/skateuk/aboutstar (http://www.iceskating.org.uk/skateuk/aboutstar)

I was unable to find anything on the NISA site which permits patterns to be reversed.  Maybe one of our UK skaters can answer this?

If the Skate UK Star pattern can't be reversed, I find it interesting that the CCW bias starts so early in testing - it seems that the Skate UK Star levels are the approximate equivalent of our Aussie Skate bridge program.  I would much prefer to see that skaters be required to test (and pass!) both sides of any pattern or sequence from the earliest stages; however, if this is not to be required, then skaters should be permitted to choose their side/starting foot/end pattern/whatever.  To require only one direction advantages one set of skaters and disadvantages the other.

Check out all Ice Dances! They all go CCW around the rink. None go CW.

Very true!  As a dancer, I've had no choice but to learn things the "wrong" way.  I think it's made me a better skater though.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: fsk8r on October 08, 2011, 06:07:59 AM
I can't say how all the coaches teach the dance side of the UK Star program but the ones at my rink would emphasise practicing the turns on both feet and in both directions.
The program isn't prescriptive as testing isn't formal, so it's up to the coach as to whether they pass the skater or not. Some will probably insist on things being done in both directions (the moves in the field certainly emphasises both directions) and I'm sure there will be other coaches who will let skaters move on without doing it.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: icedancer on October 08, 2011, 07:51:27 PM

As far as the Adult MIF, originally there were some standard track moves left off (like the outside/inside spirals, waltz 8, power pulls, back power 3's) and some placed on the adult track in a different sequence (Pre-Prelim spirals on Silver and not Pre-Bronze). I assume that created some gaps so they took moves from the next level up. I also think there was the desire to give adults the advanced moves it was deemed (by who I wonder) they could handle in order to let them do some higher-level skills - originally the Int slide chasses were on Silver and the Novice move with the back perim stroking and running BI-FI 3's was on Gold. I'm not sure what the rationale was for putting the Prelim alt 3's on Pre-Bronze (b/c as techskater pointed out, it doesn't fit with what's on the first standard track test - all the forward 3's are not tested until Prelim).

So that's how the Adult MIF tests got all jumbled. After a few years, the Adult Committe responded to the many complaints about the alt 3's on Pre-B, an Int move being on Silver, and a Novice move being on the Adult track at all. So the tests were adjusted a bit, with the Novice move taken off and the slide chasses going to Gold, which created a hole on the Silver test where the power pulls were added. The alt 3's were taken off the Adult track and someone (judges? athletes on Adult Comm?) created a new 3-turn pattern which to me was bizarre and ridiculous and didn't prepare adult skaters for power 3's or 3's in the field. And the waltz 8 was also added to Pre-B, which seemed repetitive. I watched the 3-turn pattern being tested and quite frankly, based on the judging standards used, adults would have been better off if it had been added to Bronze in place of the power 3's (or alt BO edges), with a higher standard then being applied. But now the 3-turn pattern has been removed in favor of the spirals and there is almost nothing on FO and FI 3's until Silver.


Wow, Deb - this is a great "history of Adult MITF!"  Love it!  It does seem jumbled.

So now there are FO 3s on pre-Bronze in the form of a Waltz 8 and then on Bronze in the form of Power 3s but in both of those cases you step down backwards (progressively) rather than stepping forward which is required in alternating 3s and also in that "new Pre-Bronze pattern"... I find stepping forward from back to front almost harder than any other turns and now you don't see that until well, on the 5-step mohawk on the Bronze and then on the Silver on the 8-step Mohawk sequence - but is there anywhere to learn how to both check the 3-turn and then step forward?  I guess not.

Interesting musings.
Explains a lot actually and also explains why several coaches in my area encourage adults to do the Standard tests (which can be judged at an "Adult" standard I think) rather than doing the Adult track.

I chose Adult track because I didn't ever want to do spirals and figured if I ever got to test Silver I could learn the straight-line ones.  Forget about doing them on edges (despite my friend who thinks that they would be easier on edges since really it is easier to create any kind of flow on edges than on flats but I digress).

I like the idea of choosing between two moves for things like spirals.  This would also help the closed hip boys (especially) who really have a problem with the spirals on the Intermediate test.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: sarahspins on October 08, 2011, 08:29:51 PM
I like the idea of choosing between two moves for things like spirals.  This would also help the closed hip boys (especially) who really have a problem with the spirals on the Intermediate test.

While I don't disagree with having an optional move for skaters to do instead of the spirals (I am not a fan of the spirals and I find the prelim pattern pretty punishing physically - the intermediate one is much easier IMO), I don't understand the logic here at all - spirals do require a certain amount of flexibility, but they do not require open hips.  An open hip spiral position is more of a cheat to get the free leg higher and it's often not very attractive.

I think if the prelim/silver spiral pattern could be altered for adults so that a skater was only expected to demonstrate one good spiral on each edge/foot (so only 4 total) instead of such a long sequence it wouldn't be viewed with such dread, and it would make the move more easily passable by most skaters, and it would still satisfy the requirements of demonstrating spirals on edges.

someone (judges? athletes on Adult Comm?) created a new 3-turn pattern which to me was bizarre and ridiculous and didn't prepare adult skaters for power 3's or 3's in the field.

I agree, it was a weird pattern, and I found it much harder than just doing the power 3's.  By the time I finally had the strange forward 3's pattern down (at a level I now realize was VERY much above passing standard!) they pulled the test and I couldn't get myself organized well enough this summer (I didn't even skate at all from july-august) to even think about testing before the changes went into effect.  Oops :)  I should have just tested them in April because I was ready then, but I didn't want to "waste" a year's worth of USFSA membership fee.. if I join now and test in November (strongly leaning towards this), I will still have several opportunities to test higher levels or if I am invited to retest, to try again.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Skittl1321 on October 08, 2011, 10:00:52 PM
I LOVED the weird 3 turn move.  It was my favorite of the PB moves.  Oddly enough- now I can't do RFI3s...but when I was working on that, they came pretty well.  They are about equal to the power 3s in my mind, but MUCH easier than the alternating three turns they were designed to replace.

I don't think I'll ever be able to do spirals on my left leg without surgery again, but I'd be much more supportive of "one on each edge" if we have to have those stupid things on silver (seems like that would be easier to "make up" the points for 2 bad spirals rather than 5!).  That at least makes sense in terms of "progression of necessary skating moves" (although the importance of spirals is really being diminished by IJS).  Doing 5 on each side though just doesn't seem necessary.

Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Debbie S on October 08, 2011, 10:13:30 PM
Explains a lot actually and also explains why several coaches in my area encourage adults to do the Standard tests (which can be judged at an "Adult" standard I think) rather than doing the Adult track.

Only Intermediate and higher MIF tests have the Adult (and Masters, for those age 50+) option. Pre-Prelim through Juv have one standard.


As for the 3-turn pattern added (and now removed) on Pre-B, I thought there was too much going on (2 turns per lobe instead of just 1) and b/c each turn only took up half a lobe, there was no emphasis on doing turns at the top of the lobe. I would see adults test this and do the turn almost immediately after stepping on the FI/FO edge. Plus, their lobes were always tiny and weren't always a true half-circle. The big problem with the alt 3's was that transition at the line from BI to FO on the FO turns. It's too bad an alternate pattern couldn't have been developed where the 3-turns took up the whole lobe.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: nicklaszlo on October 08, 2011, 11:14:55 PM
I would see adults test this and do the turn almost immediately after stepping on the FI/FO edge.

Interesting, because my impression from test videos has been that skaters often make the edge after the turn too short, which suggests that they have not really checked it.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: icedancer on October 09, 2011, 12:55:38 AM
Only Intermediate and higher MIF tests have the Adult (and Masters, for those age 50+) option. Pre-Prelim through Juv have one standard.

Thanks.  I knew when I was writing that it wasn't quite right - but I do know of at least one coach in our area that encourages his adult students to take the Standard tests because of the progression of the Moves.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Clarice on October 09, 2011, 02:33:31 AM
Thanks.  I knew when I was writing that it wasn't quite right - but I do know of at least one coach in our area that encourages his adult students to take the Standard tests because of the progression of the Moves.

I did standard MIF, although it really was because I started Moves before there were adult MIF.  My coach thought it was important for skill development, so I did MIF right along with the kids and passed through Pre-Juv.  I had already passed Silver Free when the adult Moves became mandatory, so Adult Gold is the only adult MIF test I've ever taken.  I wonder whether it would have been even harder had I come to it through the adult structure instead of the standard one?
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Skate@Delaware on October 09, 2011, 11:43:42 AM
After just beginning to learn Silver Moves, I can honestly say that it will take at least 2 years to get anywhere close to THINKING about testing these moves!!! I can't do power pulls at all right now, so far I can manage the spiral pattern and the mohawk sequence. Everything else is so extremely challenging to the point of not happening. I might be stuck at Bronze for a long time.  :o

I wish some of these had been introduced at a lower level, I'm not sure when everyone else learns power-pulls or the rest.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: davincisop on October 09, 2011, 12:18:26 PM
I can't say that silver moves have been easy for me, I started them right before I got my new skates in April/May-ish so it stopped my progression for a while. Coach says that I have almost everything to passing standard, but we want it to be above passing so there are no worries. The toughest thing for my have been the back cross strokes and the back 3's. My spirals are stronger now and I get all but the very last lobe on all because I run out of steam (it's also 8 am when we work on these so I'm tired, too) and I just have to increase the speed on the 8-step mohawk sequence. But I have power pulls going forward and my back ones are almost there, just need to stay on a straight line and it's moreso just getting enough speed to push through them, and the forward cross strokes are probably my strongest element right now on the entire test.

I feel very blessed to be progressing as much as I have since I really can't get to the rink much to practice right now. My goal is to test them by January/February next year. The biggest nemesis I have right now is Bronze Free. I just can't get a low enough sit and a strong back spin.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Skate@Delaware on October 09, 2011, 12:39:34 PM
I'm also struggling with the sit-spin and the backspin...On a good day my backspin is there, usually it isn't.  We moved it to the front of my program so I can take my time with it...as for the sit....hahaha! :o
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Debbie S on October 09, 2011, 03:56:39 PM
Interesting, because my impression from test videos has been that skaters often make the edge after the turn too short, which suggests that they have not really checked it.

I guess there are a variety of 'common errors' on that test. Another issue with that pattern is that it was never clearly defined whether the cross (in the non-turn lobe) was a crossover (a la power 3's) or just a cross front. I saw both ways being done, the judges seemed fine with either way.


Quote from: Clarice
I wonder whether it would have been even harder had I come to it through the adult structure instead of the standard one?

I don't think so. By the time you get to Gold, you'll have mastered the same skills tested on the standard track through Pre-Juv. Although by going from Pre-Juv to Gold, you do miss the 8-step and cross strokes b/c they are on Juv, but I don't know if that made your Gold test harder. Right now, I see issues with going from Bronze to Silver and trying to learn the 3's in the field having never done either FO or FI 3's on that type of pattern, and having to learn that along with the back 3's. Plus master the spirals. I think a lot of adults are going to end up quitting MIF after Bronze, which not only means they'll never learn 3-turns on a lobe (I could see the quality of footwork in competitive programs suffering), they'll also never develop advanced stroking skills (from cross strokes, power pulls, power circles).
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Skate@Delaware on October 09, 2011, 04:18:31 PM
Right now, I see issues with going from Bronze to Silver and trying to learn the 3's in the field having never done either FO or FI 3's on that type of pattern, and having to learn that along with the back 3's. Plus master the spirals. I think a lot of adults are going to end up quitting MIF after Bronze, which not only means they'll never learn 3-turns on a lobe (I could see the quality of footwork in competitive programs suffering), they'll also never develop advanced stroking skills (from cross strokes, power pulls, power circles).
Silver moves are extremely frustrating, and if you are learning many of these for the first time ever, that just adds to the amount of time between passing Bronze and Silver. I just started learning cross strokes, power pulls, and BI3's (had already started learning BO3's but they were put on the back-burner so I could work on Bronze moves).  Some of the adults in my rink that recently started testing Standard Track are staying there. They say the progression of moves makes more sense...right now I agree.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: davincisop on October 09, 2011, 05:00:12 PM
I'm also struggling with the sit-spin and the backspin...On a good day my backspin is there, usually it isn't.  We moved it to the front of my program so I can take my time with it...as for the sit....hahaha! :o

That's EXACTLY what my coach is going to do, too! She's putting it at the very front of the program so it's out of the way and done!
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: tazsk8s on October 09, 2011, 06:44:45 PM
Quote
I see issues with going from Bronze to Silver and trying to learn the 3's in the field having never done either FO or FI 3's on that type of pattern, and having to learn that along with the back 3's. Plus master the spirals.

And power pulls, which aren't the most "adult friendly" move either.

I actually feel better reading some of this...I figured my struggles with Silver MITF were just because I'd never done *any* moves and was getting bitten in the rear end by being grandfathered through Bronze.  I'm now wondering if it would have really been that much better if I'd gone through Pre-Bronze and Bronze moves, in any of their incarnations.  Add me as another person who is doing standard MITF now (coach and I decided prelim might actually be testable "in this lifetime" this week, which is a huge step up from last year when I figured "ain't no way"), because the progression of skills makes more sense than the adult track.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Jenna on October 09, 2011, 06:51:38 PM
I used to do standard and adult track and I was having the same issues in pre-juv.  Aside from the 8 step mohawk, all my trouble moves are from the pre-juv test.  I finally decided to focus just on the adult tests until I pass my gold moves.

I'm fortunate to have a coach now who is more proactive on making me work on skills that will help my moves now, work on higher skills to prepare me when I get to those moves and still work on the patterns in the test that I'm working on now.  The coach that I had for my bronze test never worked on back 3s, power pulls or cross strokes with me.  I passed bronze and was missing skills for two-thirds of the silver test (which is part of the reasons for me taking eons to pass silver).  In contrast, I've worked on all the skills for gold moves.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: nicklaszlo on October 09, 2011, 09:13:05 PM
power pulls, which aren't the most "adult friendly" move either.

They're my favorite move!  

(I am still working on "boring bronze")
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: jjane45 on October 11, 2011, 11:55:42 PM
Cross posting FigureSpins' drill from practice thread for alternating spiral pattern:

Four or more lobes are allowed for this pattern.  However, since the focii for this move are extension and edge quality, you have to improve your edges.  The size of your lobes are probably caused by the flats - you're heading straight down the rink instead of riding the edge and letting the blade create the arc.

I'm coaching four Prelim testers now and the best exercise is to do the spirals on a circle with everything lined up over the circle.  We can say "stay over the tracing" all we want, but to non-Figures skaters, it's a suggestion, not a requirement.  "Keep everything over the circle" works better because they can SEE the circle and understand the tracing concept better.  You want the head/shoulders leading the way, balanced over the skating foot and leg and the free leg extended behind over the circle.  Everything lined up, like an arrow.  The edge of the blade will create the curve and do the work of turning.

While I know some people believe holding the free leg inside/outside the circle makes it easier, I have yet to see it really improve this spiral pattern.  More often, it pulls them off the edge to do a "stomp-swing-through" or a "stamp-two-foot-glide" at the transitions, which demonstrates a lack of control.

Another drill I use is to have the skaters do "double spirals" around the circle.  They start out with a clean push into the spiral, then bend the knee, lower the free leg and glide on the same skating foot before going back into the exact same spiral with no push or change of foot/edge.  It's really strengthened their transitions because it increases their body control and strength.

I practiced tracing hockey circles with all forward spirals today, usually get 3/4 of the circle except for RFO. Combination of weak side and weak direction, but still shocked by how shaky it was, as RFO edge seemed alright so far in other drills. The circle really helped body alignment, too. Excellent drill, thank you again FigureSpins!
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: LilJen on October 13, 2011, 03:57:53 PM
I plan to test these next month. I got started on the revised spirals as soon as I heard they'd changed, and yes, the inside spirals are still a wee bit wobbly but I think they'll be OK. The move that I struggle with the most? Fwd power pulls. Somehow I figured out the back ones so I can rip, rip, rip down the ice, but the forward ones? My coach described them as "too nice." Edges are there but I'm not digging into them or yanking out of them like I should. I can't figure out what to do. All other moves, though, are passing as far as I know, so I'm hoping this won't be a problem.

wrt BI3s, one thing that helped me is working with coaches who KNOW figures!! The idea to go pigeon-toed has helped a lot. ie, your free foot can be right over your skating foot and sort of pigeon-toed before the turn.

And my coach is always asking for more knee bend in the back cross-strokes. More bending, and actually more leaning backward helped me here, too--I finally noticed that my toepicks were scratching a bit and slowing me down towards the end of each stroke (not that I was toepicking in to begin the stroke, but pulling up to the toepick to end). I've gotten some more flow with much deeper knee bend and allowing myself to lean backwards a bit more.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Doubletoe on October 27, 2011, 05:57:00 PM
I think USFS thinks they took care of the Master's level skater by lowering the standard even further.
I think they think they already addressed young adults by making a seperate test track.
What seems to actually be needed is judges training.  Quantifying what these standards mean. 

In my area, I find that the judges seem to be pretty clear on the difference between the passing standard in Adult MIF tests vs. standard MIF tests (as evidenced by the fact that I passed every move on the Adult Gold MIF test on the first try, but got 5 retries before I passed the Intermediate MIF test, which was the same test except for one move!).  However, it is quite possible that in other parts of the country there are fewer adult skaters or the judges just aren't as well educated when it comes to adult skaters. 
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Skate@Delaware on October 28, 2011, 08:29:52 AM
In my area, I find that the judges seem to be pretty clear on the difference between the passing standard in Adult MIF tests vs. standard MIF tests (as evidenced by the fact that I passed every move on the Adult Gold MIF test on the first try, but got 5 retries before I passed the Intermediate MIF test, which was the same test except for one move!).  However, it is quite possible that in other parts of the country there are fewer adult skaters or the judges just aren't as well educated when it comes to adult skaters. 
You know, even some occupations or activities require that you self-declare if you have any injuries that might inhibit your ability to perform at a certain level. I know that this is a sport, but even sports require this self-declaration in order to prevent further injuries. An understanding that Skater X has severely arthritic knees and can't do certain moves or can't straighten the leg completely or spinal stenosis due to age or another reason perhaps might not be able to arch the back in a spiral.  These are declarations to allow some reasonable accommodations due to injury.  I am not asking for "handicap points" or anything like that but an understanding that my injuries prevent me from doing things perfectly would be nice.

And no, I won't accept "stop skating" as an answer so don't even offer that up.  I can still skate and my skating is still at a passing level it just isn't "pretty" like you see at the younger levels. I'm older. I've had multiple injuries. My body can't do certain things. If I'm taking a test after a 12-year-old that has the same moves I would HOPE that my moves are NOT compared to theirs. Because even though we might have been skating for the same amount of time, my body just isn't the same as theirs, at all.

I did get the benefit of explanation before my last moves test, when the judge did ask me how long I had been skating and when did I start. So from the get-go she knew (and I believe she understood) that my moves would not be the same as the others.

(off rant/soap-box now, thanks for your attention ;D)
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: davincisop on October 28, 2011, 09:25:06 AM
You know, even some occupations or activities require that you self-declare if you have any injuries that might inhibit your ability to perform at a certain level. I know that this is a sport, but even sports require this self-declaration in order to prevent further injuries. An understanding that Skater X has severely arthritic knees and can't do certain moves or can't straighten the leg completely or spinal stenosis due to age or another reason perhaps might not be able to arch the back in a spiral.  These are declarations to allow some reasonable accommodations due to injury.  I am not asking for "handicap points" or anything like that but an understanding that my injuries prevent me from doing things perfectly would be nice.

And no, I won't accept "stop skating" as an answer so don't even offer that up.  I can still skate and my skating is still at a passing level it just isn't "pretty" like you see at the younger levels. I'm older. I've had multiple injuries. My body can't do certain things. If I'm taking a test after a 12-year-old that has the same moves I would HOPE that my moves are NOT compared to theirs. Because even though we might have been skating for the same amount of time, my body just isn't the same as theirs, at all.

I did get the benefit of explanation before my last moves test, when the judge did ask me how long I had been skating and when did I start. So from the get-go she knew (and I believe she understood) that my moves would not be the same as the others.

(off rant/soap-box now, thanks for your attention ;D)

I'm not sure if this has been offered before, but I know with adult nationals you are separated into age categories. What if they did that for MIF?  A 23 year old and a 53 year old can't be compared at all on a MIF OR Freestyle test. They expect the same standards for everyone.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Skittl1321 on October 28, 2011, 09:30:28 AM
They have age categories, but just two.  Adult and Master's.

The problem is, it is not well defined what the difference in the standard is, just that the passing total is lower.

In a competition, you are judged against the others in the competition.  In a test, you are supposed to be judged against a test standard.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: davincisop on October 28, 2011, 09:35:58 AM
They have age categories, but just two.  Adult and Master's.

The problem is, it is not well defined what the difference in the standard is, just that the passing total is lower.

In a competition, you are judged against the others in the competition.  In a test, you are supposed to be judged against a test standard.

Ah fair enough. Sometimes I wish I was tested against the standard but I also know that I would probably not pass my moves or freestyle then.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: tazsk8s on October 28, 2011, 10:07:55 AM
In my area, I find that the judges seem to be pretty clear on the difference between the passing standard in Adult MIF tests vs. standard MIF tests (as evidenced by the fact that I passed every move on the Adult Gold MIF test on the first try, but got 5 retries before I passed the Intermediate MIF test, which was the same test except for one move!).  However, it is quite possible that in other parts of the country there are fewer adult skaters or the judges just aren't as well educated when it comes to adult skaters.  

That is definitely what the adult skaters in my area are running into.  Basically, there IS no difference here.  So if I'm going to be judged on the same standards as the kids anyway, I might as well take the same test and save everyone some confusion.  My coach has put plenty of people through the standard moves tests so I know I can rely on her to accurately decide when they're test-ready.

We also used to have a lot of adult skaters in the area and those numbers have dimished severely in the last 8-10 years for whaterver reason (bad economy?  injuries?  lack of adult-friendly ice time? giving up due to the frustration of hitting a brick wall due to moves?  Don't know).  We usually have a couple people in adult LTS every session, but I haven't really seen any of them stick with it beyond skating forwards and stopping.  And I'm not knocking that if that's all they wanted to learn...it's just an observation.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Skate@Delaware on October 28, 2011, 10:36:50 AM
That is definitely what the adult skaters in my are are running into.  Basically, there IS no difference here.  So if I'm going to be judged on the same standards as the kids anyway, I might as well take the same test and save everyone some confusion.  My coach has put plenty of people through the standard moves tests so I know I can rely on her to accurately decide when they're test-ready.

We also used to have a lot of adult skaters in the area and those numbers have dimished severely in the last 8-10 years for whaterver reason (bad economy?  injuries?  lack of adult-friendly ice time? giving up due to the frustration of hitting a brick wall due to moves?  Don't know).  We usually have a couple people in adult LTS every session, but I haven't really seen any of them stick with it beyond skating forwards and stopping.  And I'm not knocking that if that's all they wanted to learn...it's just an observation.
Some of the adults at my rink said they won't test after this upcoming test session because the next set of moves are ones they can't do. They are "stuck" and can't progress. We are all 50+ and getting "creaky" and just can't do certain things. The MIF tests don't allow for your age like the competitions do. So it might be pre-bronze forever for a lot of us. Which also means a lot of us will never get to compete at Adult Nationals, and with the slowly dwindling amount of adult competitions, the switch over to ISI competitions seems more likely.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Skittl1321 on October 28, 2011, 10:47:40 AM
I just don't like the emphasis on age.  There is a 73 year old woman in my freestyle class on Saturdays.  I skate faster than she does (I'm just about 30), but she does all the same elements that I do.

AND- she has never had a major injury in her life.  I have had several, one life threatening.   

Age break downs just don't solve the problem.  And to solve the problem, there would need to be individualized testing...

I would just like to see clearly defined what the standards are.  What does it mean to have a 2.7 vs a 2.8? 

Sure, I might never be able to reach the standard, but at least I know what I'm working towards! Right now it is just a mystery line. 

(I've also stopped bothering with MITF.  As long as the spirals on the silver test stay there, I'm out.  I can maybe learn to get over the fear of 8-step mohawk, and practice my 3-turns until they are strong enough.  Without surgery, my hip will never allow the spiral to happen.)

Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: icedancer on October 28, 2011, 12:20:45 PM
I just don't like the emphasis on age.  There is a 73 year old woman in my freestyle class on Saturdays.  I skate faster than she does (I'm just about 30), but she does all the same elements that I do.

AND- she has never had a major injury in her life.  I have had several, one life threatening.   

Age break downs just don't solve the problem.  And to solve the problem, there would need to be individualized testing...


I think that a 30-year old has no idea what it is like to be 50+ .  I say this as a person who was once 30 and wondered why all of the 50+ skaters were so slow.  They would say things to me like, "I used to do this... or that..." - while I was out there skating fast, doing all of the dances solo at speed and tempo, had decent technique, wasn't afraid to fall, etc.

I have now joined the ranks of the 50+ skater - have had a lot of injuries (many from skating but other things) - and don't want to hurt myself.  Moves that were once easy (Blues choctaw, 14-step mohawk, Fox-Trot Mohawk, etc.,) I have to do next to a wall if I can do it at all because the timing on my left knee is just not there! 

I think that for the Master's level one should be given a choice of Moves to do - or maybe just do the side you are comfortable with.  If you can't do a spiral maybe there could be some other edge-related Move - our coaches are always coming up with New Moves that could be done well by an adult with restrictions...

In the meantime I continue to practice, work on strengthening my knees and my body, working on getting down into my sore ankles and hope that some day some of these skills will come back.

But I am quite sure I will never test Silver Moves.

Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Skittl1321 on October 28, 2011, 12:45:36 PM
I think that a 30-year old has no idea what it is like to be 50+ . 

I never said I knew what it was like to be 50. I just said that age isn't a perfect indicator of ability.  I see a woman who is 40 years older than me doing the exact same elements I'm doing.  Age clearly isn't holding her back, but injury history is clearly holding me back. 

I don't think anyone has any idea what it can be like to be someone else.  You may have been fast and fearless at 30.  I am not (though, as I said, I'm faster than the 73 year old woman).  Until you (general you) have laid paralyzed with a broken neck, you can't understand where my fear of injury comes from.  This is the reason I'm scared of falling.  I was so incredibly lucky the paraylsis was temporary, but having to learn how to walk again was real.  I never want to have to do that again- I know what it means to really be hurt.  The broken rib and broken tailbone that I've gotten while skating is not wear my fear and hesitation come from.  My knees don't work like they did 10 years ago.  I have tendinitis in just about every joint.  I can't turn my head all the way left to look over my shoulder due to a multi-level fusion.  This is the first year in many that I haven't been to the PT yet.

I'm sure it will be even worse when I'm 50 (by then I'll have a minimum of 5 bones in my neck fused, possibly all 7.  And I'm guessing if that happens, skating is over, as I won't be able to turn my head at all).  I have many friends who are 20 to 30 years older than me who are much healthier than I am in terms of body condition.  My age does not indicate that about me.  I don't think age is the only way to divide people, because everyone has completely different experiences.  There are 50 year olds who have much more attack than I do, I know 50 year olds with better knees, better hips, better ankles, and better shoulders than mine.  My neck problems are exceptional, so I won't even mention those again.   I think age is an okay place to start- but they already did that. There is already a Master's standard.   It isn't the perfect dividing line though.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: MimiG on October 28, 2011, 01:38:19 PM
What about an adjusted test stream? Something where you would fill out a form listing any limitations for the judges to take into consideration. If you pass the test, you could say you have an "adjusted bronze freestyle" or whatever and I don't see why you couldn't go on to test the next test as normal, if possible. I think it would have to qualify you for the same competition groups, though, since fields can already be pretty small (not add a new category... but I could be convinced otherwise) and competition programs can be worked around limitations on specific elements.

I could see this being very difficult on the judges though, since now they have to consider medical restrictions that they may not be familiar with or really understand, but it's just an idea bouncing around in my head... thoughts?

(Running out to a Halloween thing with my preschooler... back to think on this some more later!)
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: MimiG on October 28, 2011, 01:44:05 PM
And very quickly before I head out the door: I used to be one of those 20-somethings that started with a dance and athletic background that flew through a bunch of standard tests and didn't understand the need for an adult stream at all. And then I got older, met more adult skaters, stopped skating when work got crazy and again when I moved, had a kid... skating again now, but no more doubles, and those gold dances sure seem a whole lot tougher! Ah, life.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: aussieskater on October 28, 2011, 07:58:02 PM
As an outsider looking in, I've read this discussion about testing with interest.  We don't have the luxury of Adult vs standard track tests here, but we also don't have Moves test at all.  Except for 3 figure pattern tests, we have only dance or freeskate tests.  However, it's mooted that the system is finally introducing a Moves track next year, probably similar to the USFS one.  No word on an Adult track though  :(.

Why does the USFS system place so much emphasis on "flexibility"?  Granted, "figure skating" is no longer about tracing figures on the ice, but it's also not about hoicking your feet and knees up over your hips multiple times.  Why don't they give testing options - choose 1 of the following 2 moves; or choose one side only?  It seems to work OK in the freeskate tests.  Except for the first 2 freeskate tests, the Australian test system give element options in the freeskate tests - a "spin in one position"; a "double jump preceded by steps".  No requirement that it be a camel spin, or a loop jump rather than a flip jump.

Here's a quick options menu I created for the Adult Moves tests, using the moves I could think of:

Pre-bronze = straight-line spirals on both legs.
Bronze = a shoot-the duck (both legs?), plus either a lunge (choose leg) or a spreadeagle (choose leg and edge).
Silver = backwards shoot-the duck or a backward edge spiral.
Gold = an Ina Bauer  (maybe backwards?) or a COE spiral (maybe backwards?)

These choices mean that the skater is forced to learn the basic positions for camel spin and sit spin, but give an adult skater with injuries and basic wear-and-tear some wiggle room on what are supposed to be Adult tests.

If the regime insists on not giving element options in the Adult testing system but wants to test all the spirals as they do currently, maybe they could spread them out over the moves tests, by implement something like:

Pre-bronze = one straight-line spiral on each leg.
Bronze = one FO spiral and one FI spiral (choose the leg).
Silver = one BO and one BI spiral (choose the leg).
Gold = one forward COE spiral and one backward COE spiral (choose the leg).

Just some thoughts.  Sorry for the long post!
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: nicklaszlo on October 28, 2011, 10:32:05 PM
Just some thoughts.  Sorry for the long post!

The design of the moves tests can't be considered in isolation from the design of the freeskate tests.  You would not let people get credit for a lunge in Bronze MITF because they probably already did it for Prebronze FS.  Learning shoot the duck in Silver doesn't prepare you for the sit spin in Bronze FS.

I think the purpose of moves is more to teach the skater to connect elements together than to teach the elements.  So while I agree that the number of spirals should be reduced, they should be embedded in some kind of pattern that covers the full surface.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: icedancer on October 28, 2011, 11:09:52 PM
I love that aussieskater is thinking outside the box in terms of the Moves, but the suggestions are more freestyle elements that Moves, which I think of as a variation of figures (faster ones) that teach the skater about skating itself and that means edges and turns and the movement of the body across the ice.

I agree that lunges and Ina bauers, etc., belong in the freestyle test stream as those are basically freestyle elements.

Plus asking an ice dancer to do a lunge, shoot-the-duck or a spiral for that matter, just is inappropriate IMHO.

But as I've stated before many times on this forum, I think it is time for those on the Adult committee to come up with some Moves that are more Adult-skater appropriate.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: aussieskater on October 29, 2011, 12:08:23 AM
Nicklaszlo and icedancer, I do see what you both mean.  Sorry for any inconsistencies and unfilled dependencies in my menu - I don't have a detailed knowledge of the USFS Adult freeskate system as I'm not in the US and I'm a dancer.  My suggestions were more based on whichever skills I could think of, which are not freeskate "elements" per se.

I love that aussieskater is thinking outside the box in terms of the Moves, but the suggestions are more freestyle elements that Moves, which I think of as a variation of figures (faster ones) that teach the skater about skating itself and that means edges and turns and the movement of the body across the ice.

Icedancer, I absolutely agree with your definition of "moves".  I'd strongly argue that if spreadeagles and lunges belong in the freeskate tests, then even more so do the spirals - at least spirals garner a TES score in the IJS system, like jumps and spins.

If a short "menu" was to be offered, what skills would people like to see tested at each level?

Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: nicklaszlo on October 29, 2011, 01:05:29 AM
What if they changed the rules so that the adult moves tests no longer had prerequisites?  So those who simply enjoy taking moves tests but cannot pass the silver spirals could continue to test.  Such a rule change would have no effect on competition since the free skate tests and dance tests would maintain their prerequisites.

In a related question, are there people who could pass silver freeskate but cannot pass silver moves?  Perhaps the reasoning on the adult committee is that making the moves easier would not help if people are just going to get stuck on the freeskate anyway.  Not that this reasoning makes sense for people who take only moves tests.  My experience is limited to prebronze, and I would say that many people could pass prebronze FS before prebronze moves.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: icedancer on October 29, 2011, 12:33:57 PM
What if they changed the rules so that the adult moves tests no longer had prerequisites?  So those who simply enjoy taking moves tests but cannot pass the silver spirals could continue to test.  Such a rule change would have no effect on competition since the free skate tests and dance tests would maintain their prerequisites.

Not sure what you mean - I think that you need to pass Silver Moves before you can take the Silver FS or compete at Silver.  It's true that the Moves tests have no impact on testing dance, but do impact competitive dance on the Standard level but not for Adult dance.


In a related question, are there people who could pass silver freeskate but cannot pass silver moves?  Perhaps the reasoning on the adult committee is that making the moves easier would not help if people are just going to get stuck on the freeskate anyway.  Not that this reasoning makes sense for people who take only moves tests.  My experience is limited to prebronze, and I would say that many people could pass prebronze FS before prebronze moves.

I think that there probably are those skaters that can pass the Silver FS test but not the Moves.

In response to aussieskater's question my general requirements for the Moves tests would be:

Pre-Bronze - some semblance of understanding of edges
Bronze - more understanding of edges and generation of power
Silver - still better edges, some turns and power generation with the addition of extension - you might call it style or presentation
Gold - strong edges, good turns, excellent extension, style and presentation

My 2 cents.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: AgnesNitt on October 30, 2011, 10:11:41 AM
In response to aussieskater's question my general requirements for the Moves tests would be:

Pre-Bronze - some semblance of understanding of edges
Bronze - more understanding of edges and generation of power
Silver - still better edges, some turns and power generation with the addition of extension - you might call it style or presentation
Gold - strong edges, good turns, excellent extension, style and presentation

My 2 cents.
I think you're on a good track.

I think the test should have pre-silver and silver moves, and pre-gold and gold. And with additional levels you could add some new stuff that's not tested now (more figurish like since that seems to be happening). But by breaking the tests up, no test would become the endurance contest that silver is today.

I would be happy with the present moves tests if they'd just put the flexibility elements in freestyle (where I logically think they belong). Maybe freestyle is so crowded they just shove spirals into moves to put it somewhere.
Title: Re: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Nate on November 29, 2011, 03:24:44 AM
Bad side mohawk are hard. Because many adults do not have two open hips. Also,  for someone just starting skating,  they are not used to stepping onto the weak side like that. Anyone who doesn't understand this simple fact... I really have no other way to explain it.

The fact that some other person does equally great mohawk on both sides doesn't matter.

It is really hard to do a mohawk when your hip is pulling something hard to close on you.

This is why it's typically easier for the young kids to get in bauers and spread eagles...

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Sk8Dreams on November 29, 2011, 07:16:34 PM

Here's a quick options menu I created for the Adult Moves tests, using the moves I could think of:

Pre-bronze = straight-line spirals on both legs.
Bronze = a shoot-the duck (both legs?), plus either a lunge (choose leg) or a spreadeagle (choose leg and edge).
Silver = backwards shoot-the duck or a backward edge spiral.
Gold = an Ina Bauer  (maybe backwards?) or a COE spiral (maybe backwards?)

No one with closed hips will ever be able to do a decent spread eagle. It's just a physical fact of the way the hips are built.  This is why spread eagles are not required anywhere in the USFS test structure.  Even to allow it as an option in place of another move, is to give an unfair advantage to some over others.

I know quite a few adults who cannot now and will never be able to do either shoot the ducks or lunges because of knee issues.  Adults are typically given a lot of leeway in the freestyle tests when sit spins are required.  They are definitely not held to the standard of having the skating hip level with the skating knee.  I've seen very few adult skaters who can get that low safely (excepting those who started when they were kids.)

Ina Bauers are in the same category as spread eagles.

Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: turnip on November 30, 2011, 02:05:34 PM
I can tell that you know that wikis aren't always complete or accurate.  Does the NISA rulebook (not the wiki) say anything about being allowed to reverse the pattern?

The ISI doesn't have it written on the patterns, but their Dance Step Sequences are reversible, although most of them have turns in both directions.


Bronze silver and gold are tested by your own coach. I know people whose coach insisted they did it both ways to standard before passing them. I'm sure a coach would allow it to be reversed for a CW skater, if they didn't want it both ways.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: techskater on November 30, 2011, 06:25:27 PM
I think you're on a good track.

I think the test should have pre-silver and silver moves, and pre-gold and gold. And with additional levels you could add some new stuff that's not tested now (more figurish like since that seems to be happening). But by breaking the tests up, no test would become the endurance contest that silver is today.
You don't have to stop testing once you pass your Gold MIF test - you can continue on with Intermediate and beyond.  Intermediate includes the forward twizzles, Novice includes the back twizzles and forward loops, Junior includes a slstseq and the back loops.  They also recently put the back 8's on Gold.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: sarahspins on November 30, 2011, 07:02:20 PM
I would be happy with the present moves tests if they'd just put the flexibility elements in freestyle (where I logically think they belong). Maybe freestyle is so crowded they just shove spirals into moves to put it somewhere.

Honestly, if they could just change the "spiral" position to just an attitude for the adult tests, and require the free foot to be only knee-height at minimum that would likely eliminate the flexibility/strength problem for a lot of skaters, and still show the edge control and balance that the move is actually meant to demonstrate.

I'm at the point where the outside spirals are easy, but I just can't keep the insides going before my back is screaming at me and I have to stop about halfway through that side.  In my case it's not a flexibility issue but a strength/endurance issue, and while I've been working on it, progress has only come slowly.  I've only made it through the whole pattern (all at once) a few times... I can't depend on being able to yet.  However, I still struggle with my back inside 3's so that part of the test still needs a lot of work before I'll be ready to test silver moves anyways (which ironic because I've been working on back rockers and counters and back twizzles don't have nearly as much trouble with those even though they're supposed to be "harder"). 

I actually figure by the time I'm ready to test Silver they'll have changed it again so I won't have to worry about the spiral pattern :)  I can hope, anyways...
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: FigureSpins on November 30, 2011, 07:21:29 PM
I actually figure by the time I'm ready to test Silver they'll have changed it again so I won't have to worry about the spiral pattern :)  I can hope, anyways...
Ah, an optimist - I like it!
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: tazsk8s on November 30, 2011, 10:14:27 PM

I actually figure by the time I'm ready to test Silver they'll have changed it again so I won't have to worry about the spiral pattern :)  I can hope, anyways...

You and me both!
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: sarahspins on November 30, 2011, 11:04:10 PM
Ah, an optimist - I like it!

Of course :D

But when it comes down to it, it may be next fall before I test silver moves if they aren't ready to test this spring, and if they keep changing them every year like they have been.... I may be preparing for a test that will no longer exist in it's current form.  It's really hard to chase a moving target when they keep changing the rules :(  I spent a lot of time working on the pre-bronze forward 3's pattern (realizing now that I was doing it to a much higher standard in terms of speed and precision than was actually required to be passing standard) only for that one to get dropped, and quite honestly I was not thrilled.  Right when I was ready to test it, they changed it.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: drskater on December 07, 2011, 01:00:04 PM
I've read this thread with interest over the past few months.

FWIW: A USFS "insider" told my coach that they're not going to change MITF again anytime soon. But, who knows?

I wonder if a compelling argument to add a "pre-silver" level might be the current length of Silver moves. It's a long test! Long tests take up valuable ice time and "crowd" already heavily-booked test sessions. IMHO, the USFS pays a bit more attention to logitical concerns than, say, the limitations of the adult body.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: Skittl1321 on December 07, 2011, 01:09:12 PM
IMHO, the USFS pays a bit more attention to logitical concerns than, say, the limitations of the adult body.

Last year's moves changes were designed to shorten the length of the tests (when they consolidated the 8-step mohawk for example).  The must have forgotten that when they changed the spirals this year to a move that take 3-4x as long as the previous one.
Title: Re: Adult Moves Tests
Post by: sarahspins on December 07, 2011, 04:32:07 PM
The must have forgotten that when they changed the spirals this year to a move that take 3-4x as long as the previous one.

No kidding! 88)

That spiral sequence is killer.. it's longer than the one that shows up later on Intermediate.