Avanta ordering process

[icepixie]

Christy asked for some details on Avanta's ordering/skate-making process.  Mine is a little different because I had specific problems I wanted them to fix and because of who my skate tech is, but here's how it went for me.

In early January, I sent a paragraphs-long email describing my previous boot woes and included a bulleted list of all the ways in which my feet are unusual and what I thought needed to be done to make boots work for them.  I also sent pictures of the ways in which I'd had to modify previous boots (using sponges to create a channel down the tongue for a high/sensitive instep, skipping lace holes, building up the arch, padding the heels, punching the everloving crap out of the toe box).  I asked if they thought they could make something that would work for me.

Will called me very quickly (on his vacation!), and said he thought he could make me an "orthopedic" pair of boots.  He requested photos of my feet (both bare and in skates) and an STS cast of my feet.  He said the more information he could get, the better it would be.  So I sent about a hundred photos: Bare feet from front, back, left, and right, including standing on both feet, standing on each foot individually, and standing on both feet together and individually while bending the knee/leaning forward a bit (classic "being fitted for skates" posture); all of the above angles/positions in both the broken down pair of Jacksons that mostly fit and the SP-Teri customs that never fit; the Jackson insoles; and because I have a hip height discrepancy, I also sent a couple of full-body shots to demonstrate that.

Bill Fauver, who used to head up Avanta (or was involved in some high-level way) happens to be my skate tech and sometimes coach, and has been immensely helpful throughout this whole saga.  He had some STS casting socks, and we made casts of my feet.  I think if you don't have someone like that near you, Avanta will send you the socks and you can have a podiatrist do it.  The casting process is pretty cool; it's literally a gym sock that's been impregnated with what feels like papier mache, and the person doing it soaks it in water and then carefully rolls it up your foot/leg.  You wear plastic bags on your feet to keep the stuff off your skin.  Then you stand up on a piece of foam to be sure it captures the contours of your feet and not the floor, and they harden in about five minutes.  The person helping you cuts them off and you have a sculpture of your feet!

We also did the usual measurements and sent them along with the cast.  This was also the point where I got to choose things like low-cut back, the kind of finish on the soles, strength, etc.  At Bill's suggestion, I went to a local running store and got a 3D scan of my feet to send as well.  (This isn't mandatory, obviously.)

I sent in the casts around the middle of January, and received the boots on March 18.  Will said their turnaround time is usually a bit shorter than that, but because they were just getting back from the holidays when I ordered, and because my feet are "very, very unique," it took me longer.

Will was very helpful throughout the whole process; we spoke on the phone several times, and spent a long time discussing what exactly about my previous boots was causing problems, weird things about my feet that needed to be accommodated, my skating, etc.  I felt like he was really listening to what was wrong and thinking about ways to fix it.  I know he and Bill also spoke and emailed about me and my skates.  I was very pleased with everything.

P.S. The boots are all $1200, no matter what you get done to them.  I don't believe they sell stock boots anymore, just customs.

[Loops]

Wow! Curious as to how they feel on the ice. Have you had a chance to skate in them yet?

[icepixie]

Wow! Curious as to how they feel on the ice. Have you had a chance to skate in them yet?

Yes, I skated in them for an hour yesterday.  They feel magnificent.  Even brand new, I had basically no pain--the only issue was the top edge of the tongue on the right boot bit into my shin a little, but that was minor.  They feel almost like stiff sneakers--very padded and roomy inside.  (Not too big, but for example the toe box didn't crush my toes together.  I could actually wiggle them.)  I didn't try anything that required a ton of support, but they still seemed very supportive despite the cushiness.

This is the first time I've ever had no foot pain at all in a skate.  Even in my old broken in/broken down skates, I had some arch and instep pain most of the time.

I may still need to play with the blade placement.  On some things they felt perfect, and on others it felt like they could be moved just a bit.  Could be because I took three months off and everything felt weird.  I will say this is the first pair of boots where I haven't had to move the right blade significantly to the inside the first time I got on the ice.  Will made the boot in some way that cures my inability to get over on my right side without having to move the blade.

[Loops]

Yes, I skated in them for an hour yesterday.  They feel magnificent.  Even brand new, I had basically no pain--the only issue was the top edge of the tongue on the right boot bit into my shin a little, but that was minor.  They feel almost like stiff sneakers--very padded and roomy inside.  (Not too big, but for example the toe box didn't crush my toes together.  I could actually wiggle them.)  I didn't try anything that required a ton of support, but they still seemed very supportive despite the cushiness.

This is the first time I've ever had no foot pain at all in a skate.  Even in my old broken in/broken down skates, I had some arch and instep pain most of the time.

I may still need to play with the blade placement.  On some things they felt perfect, and on others it felt like they could be moved just a bit.  Could be because I took three months off and everything felt weird.  I will say this is the first pair of boots where I haven't had to move the right blade significantly to the inside the first time I got on the ice.  Will made the boot in some way that cures my inability to get over on my right side without having to move the blade.

Wow.  Just wow.  What an awesome experience for you!  I did my first foray into customs this past year.  I went with Jackson, because the fitting process for Avanta seemed a little too intense to do from Europe (where I don't have any decent skate fitters).  If I could have done it with my guy state side, I may have opted for it.  My custom Jacksons are definitely the best fitting skates I've ever had.  I am happy, but there are definitely things we can tweak for the next pair.  It's always a learning process, isn't it?  I am so very glad it worked for you!  Shows what properly trained/ attentive skate fitters can actually do.

[icepixie]

Thanks!  They certainly make up for the 18 months of hell that preceded them. 

To be honest, if you can find a podiatrist that has used these casting socks for orthotics, I think it would actually be easier to do without a fitter than other boot makers' custom fitting process.  You don't need to know anything about skates to do it.  Will was also willing to Facetime into the casting session to make sure everything went according to plan (although with time zones and international charges, that may be prohibitive for you).

[Christy]

Thanks so much for sharing the information. I was a bit concerned about using them after the Karen Chen incident, but it sounds like they really care.

[Casey]

Great information, encouraging to read, thank you for sharing!

[Query]

I think it's really great that they worked so hard to make the boots work for you!

What does the 3D scan give them that the cast doesn't?

[icepixie]

What does the 3D scan give them that the cast doesn't?

I honestly don't know.  Maybe the same reason he wanted photos as well as the cast?  I assume the photos were to check for pronation/supination and various arch or other deformities under different kinds of pressure, though, which the 3D thing wouldn't do.

[MCsAngel2]

So do you think Avantas are comparable to the old Klingbeils (since they have/had some of their old staff)? I am intrigued, I would like to know if anyone else has Avantas.

[Casey]

I had a brief chat with Will at Avanta yesterday.  He worked at Klingbeil since 1994, if I recall correctly.  He said they bought all the equipment and even custom lasts that Klingbeil had made for their customers - meaning they still have mine.  They do prefer to do casts now and meeting over FaceTime to assist with the casting process and ascertain all the details about your feet they deserve to know/see to make a proper fitting boot, as there are not many fitters who want to invest the learning and time into doing all they want (though interestingly, my former fitter in Portland is still doing fittings for their boots).  He said that they have improved upon the process that Klingbeil had, but the materials are all the same and the appearance is (obviously) almost the same.  I felt inspired by the chat and look forward to ordering a pair sometime later this year.

My Klingbeils have held up exceptionally well, and I really don’t need to replace them for years to come (versus Graf Edmontons which were destroyed in six months).  My current pair is my second, as my first pair was stolen - if they hadn’t been I’d probably still be happy with the first pair.  However, I would like a second pair.  Because I got Paramount blades, I didn’t think a brown sole would look good with them, and opted to get black soles on this pair.  I strongly prefer the appearance of brown soles and classic blades.  Even though maintaining waterproofing and shine on raw leather soles is a lot more work, it’s enjoyable to me.  I believe I could just sand down the black paint and wax the soles to get them brown again, but it wouldn’t look the same on the bottom.  My current boots have been through a lot, though they still look pretty great.  Having a second pair is an appealing idea so that I have one pair I skate more carefully with and work on form more to break in, while keeping free of damage (hopefully; maybe I should look into boot covers too), and another that I can go wild with and attempt new things on without stressing about boot damage.  I usually don’t damage my boots but one of my current ones has a couple cuts from the other blade on the toe.  I also want to experiment with a couple other blades, which may require different holes in the soles...I’d prefer to do that experimentation with the current pair - with proper plugging of course, keeping the other pair more pristine.  I also just want to get some firsthand experience with Avanta.

I did a lot of research before deciding on Klingbeil before, and while Harlick is the other obvious choice, I preferred the overall appearance of Klingbeil as well as their reputation.  Avanta preserves the appearance well.  As a newer company the reputation isn’t that clear yet.  The criticisms I’ve read have nothing to do with boot fit and quality, which is all that really matters in my opinion.  I’m sure that before ordering I’ll come up with more questions to discuss first, but I have a good feeling about Avanta boots and am excited to oder some.

[Casey]

Skate porn - still have pictures of my first pair of Klingbeils.



The stitching has an updated pattern on Avantas and they imprint branding on the heel, otherwise they still look the same:

[Query]

In principle, though I doubt they go this far, a 3D scan could more easily be used to guide a CNC router to shape full custom lasts. But that would cost time (including time on the CNC router), and therefore money, so I don't know if they go that far.

You could also use a cast, if it was done right (do they lose information about how the cast halves fit together, when they cut it open, as I assume they do to get your feet out?), as a negative mold to make a positive foot cast, which would become the full custom last - again time-consuming, so I don't know if they do that.

Also, ideally, you want to put hinges in the lasts where your foot joints are, to imitate the motions of the foot - and also to make it easier to pull the last out of the boot after the boot is made, without harming either. I don't know if Klingbeil/Avanta lasts did/do that.

I didn't realize Avanta continues to use Klingbeil-style leather construction. In the early days, they talked about considering modern composite construction, like good hockey boots - I wonder if do they do that too. Or maybe there are good reasons why they don't. Don Klingbeil once told me that leather, properly used, can last a long time.

I'm tempted to ask Avanta why they want 3D scans - but it would be a waste of their valuable time. My Klingbeils, about 15 years old, are broken down, and have had a few thousand hours on the ice, despite being ill fit by a non-factory fitter, but I'm still using them. If I did much jumping, I would want new boots, but as it stands, there is no reason to pay all that money.

[Casey]

I didn't realize Avanta continues to use Klingbeil-style leather construction. In the early days, they talked about considering modern composite construction, like good hockey boots - I wonder if do they do that too. Or maybe there are good reasons why they don't. Don Klingbeil once told me that leather, properly used, can last a long time.

Ahh, I dimly remember hearing about that - I believe the rationale was to make the boots lighter.  I would personally prefer an all-leather construction though - I never felt skate weight was an issue and perhaps helped me build stronger muscles.  I’ll have to ask about it sometime.

[icepixie]

So do you think Avantas are comparable to the old Klingbeils (since they have/had some of their old staff)? I am intrigued, I would like to know if anyone else has Avantas.

I've never had a pair of Klingbeils, so I can't say, but someone at my rink who went from Klingbeil to Avanta was very happy.  I know a couple other people with Avantas who love them as well.

Query, Will didn't specifically ask for the 3D scan--it was just something Bill Fauver suggested when I was ordering.  I don't know how or if they actually used it.  And yes, you do have to cut the casts off your feet, so they are cut down the front from the top to about the ball of the foot.  They fit back together pretty well since it's just one cut and the cast is still whole on the other side.  I don't know if Avanta uses them as a negative mold or just for measuring.

[Query]

and we made casts of my feet.  I think if you don't have someone like that near you, Avanta will send you the socks and you can have a podiatrist do it.  The casting process is pretty cool; it's literally a gym sock that's been impregnated with what feels like papier mache, and the person doing it soaks it in water and then carefully rolls it up your foot/leg.  You wear plastic bags on your feet to keep the stuff off your skin.  Then you stand up on a piece of foam to be sure it captures the contours of your feet and not the floor, and they harden in about five minutes.  The person helping you cuts them off and you have a sculpture of your feet!

I wonder why a podiatrist is needed. That can be expensive. Sounds fairly simple to do it yourself. Unless they are worried someone will mess up and get the casting socks stuck to their skin.

When my Klingbeils were fit (by a non-factory fitter whose work I was not happy with), the fitter had me stand, in both feet, with the feet spread apart, on impressible foam to get the shape of the bottoms of my feet. Problem is, that meant that the legs and feet were tilted in a way quite different from the way they have to be when standing on one foot, and they messed up the tilt of the bottoms of my feet. But I suppose some people may be happier with a two foot fit, because it doesn't distort the feet as much, which might be more comfortable for some people. I know another fitter who compromises and has people sit down while doing impressible foam fits.

I hadn't heard of the Karen Chen incident. However, if her breakdown issues were indeed caused by excess sweat - if I understand that article correctly - that is be one area in which a synthetic boot could work better than leather. E.g., the type of construction I understand to be used by the ultralight boots made by some of the other companies, using the same type of materials, like carbon fiber and a plastic resin, that are in many ultralight boats and aircraft. However, I don't know the details, and don't know all her needs.

Of course, I don't know if it was the liner that was the root of Chen's problem with Avantas.  She has now moved to Jackson skates. I've admired the plush linings on Jackson Skates. I wonder if those linings are made of polyester fleece or other synthetic that doesn't rot easily.  (I love polyester fleece in coats and other outerwear. It has a nice feel, it's light, it stays fairly warm when wet, and it washes well in machines, provided I put the drier on low heat.) If so - maybe Jackson is a fairly good brand for her, and not just as a financial sponsor. That is, if they did a good job of fitting her. Considering the free publicity surrounding the incident, I bet Jackson worked very hard to do so.

It makes sense sports equipment manufacturers to try to avoid saying bad things about high profile athletes. When Avanta publicly criticized Chen, it further publicized Chen's problems with her Avanta boots - effectively giving free publicity to Chen's switch to Jackson. If they were annoyed, they could have quietly withdrawn their sponsorship, without making a public fuss.

But I wonder - if Avanta boots do break down with excessive sweat, does that mean that other skaters whose feet sweat a lot should avoid Avanta? (See, Avanta? I wouldn't have wondered that without the publicity you generated.)

[tstop4me]

I wonder why a podiatrist is needed. That can be expensive. Sounds fairly simple to do it yourself. Unless they are worried someone will mess up and get the casting socks stuck to their skin.

When my Klingbeils were fit (by a non-factory fitter whose work I was not happy with), the fitter had me stand, in both feet, with the feet spread apart, on impressible foam to get the shape of the bottoms of my feet. Problem is, that meant that the legs and feet were tilted in a way quite different from the way they have to be when standing on one foot, and they messed up the tilt of the bottoms of my feet. But I suppose some people may be happier with a two foot fit, because it doesn't distort the feet as much, which might be more comfortable for some people. I know another fitter who compromises and has people sit down while doing impressible foam fits.

<<Emphasis added.>>  Your second paragraph pretty much answers your first question.  If the casting is not done right, the fit can be substantially off.  I've had casts made on several instances for orthotics (for street and running shoes, not skate boots).  There are a lot of variables in getting proper casts.  Needs a skilled tech supervised by a podiatrist who knows what to do.