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Author Topic: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE  (Read 3645 times)

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Offline Neverdull44

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Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« on: February 23, 2014, 07:07:46 PM »
Read this article.   

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/fivering_circus/2014/02/sochi_olympics_figure_skating_russia_s_adelina_sotnikova_won_figure_skating.html

I didn't realize that the Olympic judging threw out 2 of the judge's scores at total random, and then the highest and lowest of the remaining 7 scores are also thrown out.  It leaves too much to chance, and that doesn't reward the skater's work.  The judges are anonymous, and no one is held accountable. 

So, I guess figure skating isn't all that dead.  Over 2 million Americans have signed a petition to change figure skating's judging systems.   I can see a Congressional Hearing on this? 

https://www.change.org/petitions/international-skating-union-isu-open-transparent-scores-and-remove-anonymity-from-the-judging-decisions-of-women-s-figure-skating-at-the-sochi-olympics


Offline AgnesNitt

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2014, 09:56:23 AM »
From the Christian Science Monitor, a solid article on the controversy.
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Offline sk8time

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2014, 12:15:21 PM »
From the Christian Science Monitor, a solid article on the controversy.

Thanks for this link - this is the only clear and well written article on this "debate" I've seen so far.

Offline jbruced

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2014, 01:33:47 PM »
I had read another article which gave the complete breakdown of the scores each received. Now I can't remember were I read it online :blush:

Offline ONskater74

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2014, 04:42:32 PM »
I note that the linked article does not mention anything about discarding highest/lowest marks?? I don't understand that at all if it is true. You add up the technical points, right? Then you add in the others and tally it up for the number that scrolls onto the screen. Where is all this throwing out judges scores coming from. Why would they do that?

Offline jbruced

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2014, 05:09:19 PM »
Where is all this throwing out judges scores coming from. Why would they do that?
I think they remove the highest and lowest scores in an attempt to remove patently biased scores. Why an additional two scores would be randomly removed doesn't really make sense to me. Such a move could really help or hurt a contestant.

Offline Neverdull44

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2014, 05:20:30 PM »
http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/fivering_circus/2014/02/sochi_olympics_figure_skating_russia_s_adelina_sotnikova_won_figure_skating.html

"The supposed empiricism here is undermined by the fact that the scores are anonymous. This anonymity ostensibly takes the pressure off judges to vote in a nationalistic spirit, but it also erases any notion of public accountability. What’s more, two of the nine overall scores are discarded at random, and of the seven remaining, the high and low are also tossed out. Again, this sorting mechanism is double-edged: It may dilute the odds of bloc voting, but it also intensifies the odds of a skater being randomly boosted or penalized by the luck of the draw."




Offline 4711

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2014, 06:15:28 PM »
somewhere along the line one has to come to terms with the fact that figure skating is not a measurable constant but includes the object of subjectivity. Or it would be speed skating or High/long jump.
I liked the idea in the olden days that a fall disrupted the program enough to affect your artistic score. You had to put some work into the art aspect (the German term is Eiskunstlauf, with art as part of the name) and not just chase from jump to jump.

:blush: ~ I should be writing~ :blush:

Offline Schmeck

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2014, 04:29:24 PM »
Read this article.   

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/fivering_circus/2014/02/sochi_olympics_figure_skating_russia_s_adelina_sotnikova_won_figure_skating.html

I didn't realize that the Olympic judging threw out 2 of the judge's scores at total random, and then the highest and lowest of the remaining 7 scores are also thrown out.  It leaves too much to chance, and that doesn't reward the skater's work.  The judges are anonymous, and no one is held accountable. 

So, I guess figure skating isn't all that dead.  Over 2 million Americans have signed a petition to change figure skating's judging systems.   I can see a Congressional Hearing on this? 

https://www.change.org/petitions/international-skating-union-isu-open-transparent-scores-and-remove-anonymity-from-the-judging-decisions-of-women-s-figure-skating-at-the-sochi-olympics

Congressional Hearing, American signatures - nothing to do with the ISU. The ISU is an International organization, so the whackadooodles in congress have no say over what they do. They'd like to think they have that power, but they do not. I'm not even sure they can force the USFSA to do anything? They can suggest, they can not recognize (threaten) but that's about it. Think of how they fuss about steroids in sports. It's a big waste of time.

And why does the link only mention the women's figure skating (which is really ladies, or did that change?)

Offline Schmeck

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2014, 04:38:05 PM »
The petition lost me in the first paragraph - twits. What was up with the twits?

My goodness, people will sign just about anything.

Any argument that mentions Wagner's quote loses points as well. Someone please whack Wagner over the head with an ISU scoring rulebook?

Offline iomoon

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2014, 05:13:48 PM »
I am curious as to why people base this petition on Americans finding it unfair to Americans. She's a South Korean skater. We get no benefit from Yuna winning.  ??? The South Koreans sure are enraged, though.

Schmeck: I think they were calling it "twits" instead of "tweets."

Offline sarahspins

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2014, 07:22:21 PM »
Personally I think all of the outrage is a bunch of BS.  Were Adelina's scores a little inflated?  Sure, but I don't think it really changed the outcome of the competition.  Had Yuna put more technical content in her program and started out with a higher base value, then I could see people calling foul, but she skated an easier program - to some degree it doesn't matter if she skated it better than anyone else, it still just didn't have enough points to win.

I see Wagner as a whiny brat. Instead of being incredibly thankful and humble for being allowed to have her Olympic experience, from the outset she had a chip on her shoulder and acted like she was better than everyone, and rather than recognizing that she was being judged fairly for her underrotated jumps, started blaming the judging... it just makes us all look bad.

Offline Neverdull44

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2014, 08:07:12 PM »
Congressional Hearing, American signatures - nothing to do with the ISU. The ISU is an International organization, so the whackadooodles in congress have no say over what they do. They'd like to think they have that power, but they do not. I'm not even sure they can force the USFSA to do anything? They can suggest, they can not recognize (threaten) but that's about it. Think of how they fuss about steroids in sports. It's a big waste of time.

And why does the link only mention the women's figure skating (which is really ladies, or did that change?)

What can the US do?  Figure skating crosses state boundaries.  The skates you wear are likely made in another state, competitors travel interstate to compete & test . . . .  .so under the Commerce Clause ...Congress has broad powers to regulate it because figure skating is part of our national economy.  The USFSA can probably be regulated by laws passed by Congress to make competitions more fair.  Competitors are spending thousands, in not millions, to compete.  Think of baseball, Lance Armstrong, and NFL head injuries....congressional inquiries.  Private sports groups have to follow rules too.  (Lance Armstrong, if I remember right, was taking extra EES/erythropoitien, a natural hormone that everyone produces in their kidneys that tells their bones to make more hemoglobin/red blood cells.  More hemoglobin, more oxygen, better performance.)   So, if a figure skating competition is patently unfair, it will discourage others from joining it, it affects commerce, and Congress has an interest.   

Plus, if hearings can distract the population from more important things, Congress will do it.

Those 2+ million votes on President Obama's change.org page is a cause of concern to me.

Offline icedancer

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2014, 08:16:12 PM »
I'm sure Congress has better things to do with their time than the regulation of International Figure Skating competitions.

If 2 million people signed this petition then I would guess that at least 10 times that watched the competition and did not sign the petition. I would say that is good for skating.

I agree with sarahspins and Schmeck - I think the medal placement was fine - Adelina had the skate of her life and brought the house down.  Was it perfect? No - but then again who should have won? Yuna Kim's performance was kind of lackluster (and yes, I liked her fine in 2010) -

On seme level I'm glad this is happening though because it took the focus off all of the naysayers after the dance event - they just moved onto this topic (short attention spans) -

Thinking that reality TV and the social media have a lot of do with how this is turning out - reality TV telling us that our votes count - like in Dancing with the Stars - and the internet with everyone over-analyzing everything - it is all crazy!!


Offline iomoon

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2014, 09:11:53 PM »
Congress is not the right department to do this. They worry more about Russia itself than the IOC. :nvm:

Offline AgnesNitt

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2014, 10:42:17 PM »
I thought Yuna even admitted she wasn't skating at the top of her game.
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Offline sampaguita

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2014, 01:05:22 AM »
South Korea already filed a formal complaint: http://thediplomat.com/2014/02/yuna-kims-silver-medal-politics-or-poor-sportsmanship/

I'm pretty surprised Yuna Kim apparently thinks she was robbed. Otherwise, we'd hear a congratulatory messages from her.

That being said, I think Adelina deserves her gold. I watched the performances live, and she was on fire that night. Of course, having a Russian audience helped tremendously -- they are incredibly loyal to their countrymates to the point that they wouldn't clap for anyone else!.Yuna delivered fine, not her best performance, and though her artistry was superior to Adelina, I don't think it was that big of a difference to swap the standings. The difference in the technical score was huge.

Offline Loops

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2014, 02:22:04 AM »
Neither did I sign the petition- it's too reactionary.  I also think Adelina deserved her gold.  She was brilliant.  Yuna was also amazing, but it's a one-night (or 2) competiton and not a career evaluation.  Adelina might be unknown outside Europe, but she's been on the podium at Europeans before, and is Russia's own National Champion.  People need to dismount.

Out of curiosity, how many in the skating community are upset about it?  (and how do we know it's not a publicity stunt?)

Seems to me there are several articles popping up justifying the results- all seem to be from within the skating world.  Is this the general Olympics-only public crying foul?

Offline AgnesNitt

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2014, 02:58:39 AM »
I stumbled across this in a politics blog comments section and it reminded me of the 'controversy'.
Quote
We must no longer test whether something is true or false by asking whether it comports with external reality.
That is an archaic, bourgeois conception of 'truth'. Instead we must ask, "Does this utterance advance the interests of the Party? Does it support the Party in its leading role as Vanguard of the Revolution?"
If it does, then the statement possesses *revolutionary* truth, which subsumes, and transcends, mere bourgeois 'truth'
All correctly oriented cadres know this.
All power to the soviets of preachers and hedge-fund managers!

Now it becomes:
We must no longer test whether a program is good or bad by asking whether it comports with external reality.
That is an archaic, bourgeois conception of 'good'. Instead we must ask, "Does this program advance the interests of the media? Does it support the media in its leading role as Vanguard of the Casual Fan?"
If it does, then the statement possesses *casual fan* truth, which subsumes, and transcends, mere bourgeois 'truth'
All correctly oriented cadres know this.
All power to the soviets of casual fans and  know nothing journalists!
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Offline Schmeck

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2014, 07:05:07 PM »
What can the US do?  Figure skating crosses state boundaries.  The skates you wear are likely made in another state, competitors travel interstate to compete & test . . . .  .so under the Commerce Clause ...Congress has broad powers to regulate it because figure skating is part of our national economy.  The USFSA can probably be regulated by laws passed by Congress to make competitions more fair.  Competitors are spending thousands, in not millions, to compete.  Think of baseball, Lance Armstrong, and NFL head injuries....congressional inquiries.  Private sports groups have to follow rules too.  (Lance Armstrong, if I remember right, was taking extra EES/erythropoitien, a natural hormone that everyone produces in their kidneys that tells their bones to make more hemoglobin/red blood cells.  More hemoglobin, more oxygen, better performance.)   So, if a figure skating competition is patently unfair, it will discourage others from joining it, it affects commerce, and Congress has an interest.   

Plus, if hearings can distract the population from more important things, Congress will do it.

Those 2+ million votes on President Obama's change.org page is a cause of concern to me.

But doing most of the above would hurt US commerce, which would be a very unlikely thing for the Congress to do - and don't forget, USFSA is full of old money uppities (SCOB - oh my goodness) who want their skating clubs. If Congress tried to get USFSA to change, then the ISU would toss us out, and no Figure Skaters from the USA at the next Olympics. that would go over so well, not.

Offline Schmeck

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2014, 07:41:49 PM »
So, how's the petition going?

Offline Query

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2014, 06:42:26 PM »
International sports organizations really can't be expected to accept regulation by any one member country's legislature or legal system.

If the U.S. congress or other U.S. legal system entity were to get involved in an IOC/ISU judging controversy, perhaps the IOC and ISU could respond by dropping US organizations from the international organizations.   ::>)

They'd hate to do that, because the U.S. is a substantial part of international sports competition, both in terms of participation and the commercial market for televised coverage, but imagine a temporary suspension...  Congress might then have to get involved to keep the U.S. legal system out of international sports. Which would be a good thing.

Maybe it should go to the World Court?   :angel:  That would be even more crazy.

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Offline Schmeck

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Re: Change.org's Petition to Change FS Judging is HUGE
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2014, 05:54:36 AM »
Not from the change.org petition though - has that gone anywhere or is it just a 'click like' type movement?

I don't think South Korea has a chance for any change at this point, but it is a start to open up the judging process.