skatingforums
On the Ice => Sitting on the Boards Rink Side => Topic started by: jumpingbeansmom on April 05, 2011, 01:23:41 PM
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It seems common around here that all the coaches who have the most successful competitive skaters are yellers. Is this JUST the way it is in figure skating? Many of these locally coaches are Russian, Ukaranian....etc.
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One of the best coaches I ever had (and I was never elite, but some of her other students were Provincial and National competitors at the Novice and Junior level...) was so soft-spoken you pretty much couldn't hear her over the general rink noise - you had to skate right up and listen intently. But lots of elite level coaches do seem to be yellers. Not necessarily angry or scary, but definitely loud enough to hear across the rink over the loud bits of a program and certainly not afraid to make themselves heard!
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One of the best coaches I ever had (and I was never elite, but some of her other students were Provincial and National competitors at the Novice and Junior level...) was so soft-spoken you pretty much couldn't hear her over the general rink noise - you had to skate right up and listen intently. But lots of elite level coaches do seem to be yellers. Not necessarily angry or scary, but definitely loud enough to hear across the rink over the loud bits of a program and certainly not afraid to make themselves heard!
I think what I am referring to seems at the very least angry...I can see some of the kids cringing a bit and sometimes they look like they might cry
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I too have problems hearing my soft-spoken coach sometimes, lol. Haven't quite heard coaches at my rink yelling at students, recreational or competitive.
The only exception is a guest coach who speaks quite loudly and even sometimes abusively to students of all ages. (Turn, d*** it turn!) He is a good technical coach but the noisy curses are hard on my ears.
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My Czech coach was a yeller and guard-thrower for many, many years before I started working with her. I started with her five years ago and I was told that she had mellowed considerably by then, but she still yelled more than any coach I had ever had. She was very sick this past fall and now that she has made a full recovery, she is almost always sugar and sunshine. I think perhaps she was in a lot of pain which made her more unpleasant. Now she still has some pain, but she is much more pleasant and so much fun.
I can sometimes be loud as a coach, especially if I am giving correction across the ice, but I do try not to be a scary yeller. I think there is a balance between being firm and effective and being scary. Also there may be a foreign accent requirement for angry yellers. I would expect Eastern European/Soviet coaches to be more "mean and scary" because fear is the culture in those countries.
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I have had several coaches since I started skating and I found out that actually I work better if someone shouts at me. It is hard to explain why; I would never believe it about myself until I tried. One of my past coaches was like that and before I had her I was really scared of her, when I saw her shouting at her students. Then on my first lesson I told her that it is not a good idea to raise her voice on me because I may freeze and not be able to do anything. At first she tried hard not to; then one day I was running through my program while preparing for competition and she skated the whole time behind me while shouting about things that were not to her liking (where are you looking, stretch the free leg, hold that longer etc) and it was my cleanest program ever. The natural respect (or fear???) made me skate so well!!! ;D Since then I was happy when she raised her voice, because I knew that it was working for me, although I still don't know why. I wasn't scared of that coach generally, but when someone is shouting at you, it helps to 'persuade you' to do what they are saying. You may think you would obey even without the shouting, but with the shouting your will is somehow much more determined to do what the coach says.
I know that when training in the army they encourage them by shouting, so there must be something to it.
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My coach told me that when she was coaching synchro her team new that shouting was normal and the "can I have a quiet word" meant you were in BIG trouble. She's moved rink and we don't have synchro, but when the kids put on a synchro routine for a group number, I heard a lot of complaints that she was "scary."
Most of them time with me she doesn't shout, but every now and then she does. The first time she did it, she apologised afterwards and said that she only did it to those skaters who she knew would respond. It was her way of saying that I was in the competitive group, which was nice given that I'm an adult.
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Yeller vs. non yeller is not an issue in my opinion. It's tone and how the words that said are.
Teresa
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It seems common around here that all the coaches who have the most successful competitive skaters are yellers. Is this JUST the way it is in figure skating? Many of these locally coaches are Russian, Ukaranian....etc.
Funny... at dd's rink the coach I hear yelling the most is American. :) Dd's jump coach is Czechoslovakian I haven't heard him yell. I've heard he has on occasion but honestly, I have yet to hear him do it. I understand being firm and I don't have a problem with a coach speaking loudly or firmly... but not to the point of upsetting my child. I also do not want my kid belittled. The yeller I referred to has drawn negative attention. Some parents get very offended by the behavior... these are parents of students who do not take from that coach. That type of coaching works well for some skaters, my skater would not do well. She would shut down! She's very shy and doesn't talk much to people she doesn't know. Her jump coach says he has to listen carefully to hear her talk. LOL! To answer your question, I do not think it is common, but it does happen.
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Either you temper your behavior as a coach or you accept the fact that only skaters can tolerate your behavior will choose you as a coach. Perhaps that's what we're seeing the end result of in this topic and assuming that the yelling coach makes the competitive skaters better at skating.
I will chase the skater and call out things loudly, like "turn the shoulders," "PUSH," "You're not turning enough," "You didn't PUSH!" lol. But I won't yell "Are you crazy?" or "Move your ***" as some coaches do. I don't think you discipline through embarrassment, although it's almost unavoidable in synchro or groups.
For me, it works better to stop the skater and address the issue quietly, one-on-one if the reminders aren't working, as my example shows.
I have several students on a synchro team, which I do not coach. Their coach last year was a college student who I thought was really sweet and nice. I couldn't believe the stories the girls told me after the season was over, about the coach mocking them, yelling at them, and berating them. I actually said "Nah, she was just trying to be heard above the other teams' music."
One of the parents told me that the girls weren't embellishing - they had listened several times after their kids complained and the coach was not only loud, but mean! Rather than say something to the coaches, they instead told their kids to just brush it off because (again, life lessons!) they felt it was important for the kids to learn how to deal with someone they didn't like who was in a position of authority. As one mom told me, "There will always be a teacher, a coach, or a boss that you won't like, but you have to accept and deal with." I learned a life lesson that day and my own kids have benefitted from their wisdom. I have THE BEST skating parents and students. But, they're recreational skaters, not the competitive skaters that the OP is admiring.
Raising your voice is always a cultural thing but it's also a learned behavior. I have a friend whose coach was a yeller and she (as a coach) is a yeller, but her family is so quiet, it's out of character. My coach was German and is still yelling after all these years. That's how her mother coached, that's how she coaches. Her father's quiet, but everyone else is loud, loud, loud. I fit right in! I don't think the yelling does anything for her coaching, but I always felt comfortable yelling back, lol. (When she was a Director, I taught groups for her one season. I told her to stop yelling at the instructors in front of the students because it undermined our authority. She hadn't even thought of that - she comes from a loud family.)
I think that the skaters who have the attitude to reach the top of the heap can deal with the yelling and the brow-beating. It's a chicken-and-egg scenario: which comes first? Is the yelling coach really the most talented coach or is s/he starting with skaters that have talent?
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I will chase the skater and call out things loudly, like "turn the shoulders," "PUSH," "You're not turning enough," "You didn't PUSH!" lol. But I won't yell "Are you crazy?" or "Move your ***" as some coaches do. I don't think you discipline through embarrassment, although it's almost unavoidable in synchro or groups.
Perhaps this is a cultural thing, but when you talk about yelling, I'm thinking shouting / calling things loudly and not that a coach would be shouting things that belittle the skater... But I also come from a rink where there's a policy of no swearing on the ice (there's children around), and am shocked at what passes as acceptable at other rinks (I've heard of a synchro coach swearing at her team which consisted of teenagers).
However, we do have loud coaches telling skaters to push and some of these skaters may be in tears. However are they upset at the coach or upset with themselves? Are the tears just frustration that they can't do something? I've also speculated that possibly given the age of some of the competitive skaters (I very rarely see tears from recreational skaters unless they have just had a nasty fall) that some of it may be hormonal.
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It could be a bit of everything you mentioned.
I like the "no cursing" rule. I also like it when coaches say "sweep the table" rather than "put your boobs on the table" for the camel entrance when they're teaching young girls. Especially when I'm teaching a pair of seven-year old hockey kids or a preschooler nearby.
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Perhaps this is a cultural thing, but when you talk about yelling, I'm thinking shouting / calling things loudly and not that a coach would be shouting things that belittle the skater... But I also come from a rink where there's a policy of no swearing on the ice (there's children around), and am shocked at what passes as acceptable at other rinks (I've heard of a synchro coach swearing at her team which consisted of teenagers).
However, we do have loud coaches telling skaters to push and some of these skaters may be in tears. However are they upset at the coach or upset with themselves? Are the tears just frustration that they can't do something? I've also speculated that possibly given the age of some of the competitive skaters (I very rarely see tears from recreational skaters unless they have just had a nasty fall) that some of it may be hormonal.
I am talking about things like abruptly stopping skaters music during run through and screaming across the rink "I said double flip DOUBLE loop, NOT single loop" to which skater says something like, I didn't feel I had enough momentum...and is abruptly cut off with.."I don't want to HEAR it".
OR
something like this "You are skating like one of the babies, stand up straight, stroke harder..." in a yelling voice.
I believe the skater (a kid) took these as demeaning.. It again, may be a cultural/language thing as well.
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THat's what I thought you meant.
I have taught skaters in groups or camps that make excuses constantly and never really give any real effort unless it comes easily to them. It's hard to motivate them, and sometimes you have to say "that's not a reason, it's an excuse." Still, I would prefer that the coach discipline on the side instead of announcing it across the entire rink. It's distracting and creates a very hostile environment.
If you speak to them about it, some people will get defensive and say "But that's my style." The Club or Rink has to set the tone at that point.
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THat's what I thought you meant.
I have taught skaters in groups or camps that make excuses constantly and never really give any real effort unless it comes easily to them. It's hard to motivate them, and sometimes you have to say "that's not a reason, it's an excuse." Still, I would prefer that the coach discipline on the side instead of announcing it across the entire rink. It's distracting and creates a very hostile environment.
If you speak to them about it, some people will get defensive and say "But that's my style." The Club or Rink has to set the tone at that point.
I just wonder, if once you start parsing out the coaches that really have the ability to bring along a talented competitive skater, if that is all you are left with-- here it seems all the coaches with very successful students are like this.
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Not a bad assessment, but it's one-sided: it means that the skaters can take the heat from the coach. Makes sense, right? They have to be tough to perfect their skills and fight through obstacles.
However, it doesn't say that the coach is any better or worse. There are plenty of good coaches who don't scream at students.
I don't think we have a single coach at our rink right now who screams or yells as the OP described. We had two skaters qualify for Nationals and the Intermediate Ladies roster at our upcoming competition is going to be exciting, with strong skaters from six different coaches. None of whom yell or scream, lol.
I don't think yelling and screaming makes the coaches any better, nor does it affect the skater - most tune out the yelling, so it affects the bystanders more. Is it a psychological strategy to accustom the skater to screaming, so they won't get distracted during a competition? *shrugs*
Sometimes, people are sheep: if they perceive the screaming coach to be better, or the Russian coach to be better, or the quiet coach to be better, that's who they'll seek out for their skater. If parents see that Janey is rocking the house in Intermediate and she takes from Yurij, only Yurij will do for their skater! They might overlook Mary, rocking the house two points below because she takes from Christina on a different day.
I think people who want to believe in a coach, will believe in him/her, and that in turn drives the coach to be better, which inspires the student. Nothing to do with screaming or yelling, though. It's entirely a personality issue.
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Yelling at a skater or any athlete (in a negative manner) is wrong! In the short term, it may get something out of the athlete b/c of fear, but in the long run it will likely cause burn out and a hatred of the sport. At the very least it will cause negative feelings towards the sport, self-esteem, confidence, and ultimately fear. There has been so much research done on coaching kids and the ways to do this so that the kids stay in their chosen sport for the long haul.
The soviets were notorious for producing exceptional athletes by inducing an amount of fear into them. So what if your little kid can do a triple lutz at 9 if they quit at 11 because they've had enough of being yelled at, humiliated, and are scared to death to enter the rink on lesson day!!! Does this happen?? Absolutely, in just about any sport imaginable!
Your top level coaches aren't yellers (negative yellers). When I say top, I mean TOP, not just a coach that can say he/she sent a few skaters to nationals. They may be "shouters", that's different! They also may be very disciplined and extremely strict but they aren't mean! For instance, there may be a TOP level coach that demands push-ups on the ice if you pop a jump. That's not mean.....that's helping the kid to realize they shouldn't pop a jump. There may be coaches that stop a skaters music b/c they see the kid isn't trying. If they aren't trying, what's the point of running through their program. However, like I said...."TOP" level coaches aren'y mean nor are they yellers (Negative yellers).
Here's an example that has nothing to do with athletics.....Would you ever keep your child in a math class at school if the teacher constantly yelled, humiliated or berated them in public when they made a mistake or got the wrong answer even if that teacher produced good math results??? I wouldn't - no way!
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In answer to the original question, as far as I can tell, yelling at skating students is very uncommon.
BTW, I've had 7 Russian or ex-Soviet block coaches in various sports, for various lengths of time. Stereotypes aside, none yelled or screamed in my presence, though some permanently dropped unpromising students.
The one genuinely abusive skating coach I have observed was banned by several rinks, and no longer teaches.
(But, a speed skating coach with Olympic connections, whom I never saw teach, accused of verbal and physical abuse, was banned from a local club and rink. I think ambitious parents formed another club at another rink, and took the coach with them. Poor kids.)
Some coaches use non-abusive ways to encourage students to work harder:
- gentle teasing
- pointing out a skater who does something better
- speaking in a strict manner, like a school teacher
- threatening to drop student from that day's lesson, and doing so if needed
In my personal opinion:
Yelling and screaming are pathological, except to warn of imminent danger.
Calm, polite, mature behavior is usually the best approach.
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Well, my kid's coach is a yeller, and a loud one: she is also tough as hell, demanding, and very critical. She yells a lot of those things that you guys have been commenting on.
She produces top skaters. She also produces polite, respectful, tough, and very resilient individuals-who-happen-to-be-skaters.
Her skaters still come back to see her to share life triumphs, celebrations, mourn over tragedies; invite her to their and their children's weddings; and send their own children to her to coach. Many are life-long skaters; some go back 30 years. She has been named as a positive influence in the lives of some - very famous - skaters. She has produced a line of strong, effective and well-regarded coaches - some of whom yell, and some of whom don't.
It's her style, it works for her, and that's just the way it is. The rink's skaters a) respect her and b) are absolutely ecstatic when they get a compliment, as she hands them out only when deserved.
A calm polite style wouldn't work with my kid as well. It works with my other kid and her coach is calm and polite. It's about picking the coach that suits your skater.
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Your top level coaches aren't yellers (negative yellers). When I say top, I mean TOP, not just a coach that can say he/she sent a few skaters to nationals. They may be "shouters", that's different!
I like this distinction!
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Well, my kid's coach is a yeller, and a loud one: she is also tough as hell, demanding, and very critical. She yells a lot of those things that you guys have been commenting on.
She produces top skaters. She also produces polite, respectful, tough, and very resilient individuals-who-happen-to-be-skaters.
It's her style, it works for her, and that's just the way it is. The rink's skaters a) respect her and b) are absolutely ecstatic when they get a compliment, as she hands them out only when deserved.
The best coach at our rink is similar to this. (He's had skaters all through the ranks and winning National Championships for other countries but, unfortunately, not so far in the Senior ranks in the US). The most interesting thing is if he sees effort (ie that you are trying to do what he asks), but just aren't quite getting it, he yells a lot less. In addition, the more talent you have, the more likely he is to be LOUD and CRITICAL.
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I wasn't going to say anything else...couldn't help myself. A coach can push a student without making a student feel badly about themself. A good coach knows their student and knows how best to push them. Sometimes this may be yelling but it should always be done with thought., "How best to push my skater." A good coach knows how to motivate and thus is rewarded by disiplined and motivated skaters. I've seen skaters come and go and the skaters who stay and love the sport feel good about themselves, skating and their coach.
Sucessful students are self motivated with or without a good coach. A good coach works hand and hand with this and makes a great student/coach team.
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Teresa, you're absolutely correct!! Our top level skaters may not have had the most success in the lower ranks but they were self -motivated enough to continue on in the sport, stick it out, and rise to the top. I really think kids that have been humiliated or berated, regardless of how good they are/were stop participating way before they get to the top! This topic has been researched more in gymnastics but the same statistics would apply in skating, I think.
I don't think successful athletes are coddled but I know they haven't been berated and humiliated over and over again by the very person that is responsible for teaching and coaching them! A successful partnership has gotten athletes to the top. Mutual respect, trust and a common goal is what makes superior athletes these days.
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What I love about my coach is she is a yeller when she needs to be, but not in a mean or degrading way. I tend to overthink when I jump and therefore screw them up frequently, and she can tell when I start to overthink so she will shout "DON'T THINK!" when I'm skating or when I was perfecting my bronze moves she'd shout "HOLD THE EDGE LONGER". I was afraid that yelling would upset me but it's not in a mean spirited way at all, it's just so I hear it and I skate better when she does it. :)
I had one Russian coach one time that was teaching our group number that yelled at me for being a half hour late to the practice. I was late because the lady in the office that was giving us the times told us the incorrect time, so I came at the time she told me.
The Russian coach later apologized and really did feel bad about making me cry (I was 13 and a very delicate person lol) and all was well. I made sure after that to double check the rehearsal times with her.
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I am talking about things like abruptly stopping skaters music during run through and screaming across the rink "I said double flip DOUBLE loop, NOT single loop" to which skater says something like, I didn't feel I had enough momentum...and is abruptly cut off with.."I don't want to HEAR it".
OR
something like this "You are skating like one of the babies, stand up straight, stroke harder..." in a yelling voice.
I believe the skater (a kid) took these as demeaning.. It again, may be a cultural/language thing as well.
I actually see nothing wrong with these quotes - Figure skating is a competitive SPORT, not a gym class, and if you want to compete (really compete, not just dabble recreationally, in nonqualifying levels, etc) then you have to be prepared to be pushed. It sounds like there's a lack of concentration and effort on the part of the skater, and if I was that skater's mom, I'd want her to be spoken to pretty firmly too.
It used to frustrate me to no end when some of the girls in synchro would be screwing around when they should have been working on elements, or doing a run through of a program with no effort put into it. That's a team sport though, and if you are on the team, you should be there to win.
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Thank you kssk8fan.
Schmeck,
Personally I like descriptive statements about what I'm doing wrong. "Your looking down."
I like descriptive statements to correct a skill. "Keep your free hip open."
"Your skating like a baby.", doesn't tell me what's wrong or how to fix it.
A coach can and should expect effort. A coach is a teacher and their job is to help their student be their best by information. If a coach does their job the skater knows best how to do theirs.
I believe to be the "best" you need to love the sport, feel good about yourself, know how to push yourself and learn from your mistakes. I just don't think feeling like crap fits into the equation. I can't believe this feeling breeds long term growth.
Just saying,
Teresa
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Personally I like descriptive statements about what I'm doing wrong. "Your looking down."
I like descriptive statements to correct a skill. "Keep your free hip open."
"Your skating like a baby.", doesn't tell me what's wrong or how to fix it.
I agree the comments should be descriptive on how to correct a skill, but between a coach and a skater a statement like "you're skating like a baby" might actually have that affect. My coach oftens tells me I'm walking, which is her way of saying "push." To someone else it might sound like she's just insulting me, but it actually tells me what I'm doing wrong and what I need to do to correct it.
It's sometimes difficult to judge coaches' comments unless you know the full context and skating relationship.
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Yes, skaters and coaches have cues that they use with each other. I'm loud and I'm proud, but I'm not abusive. I call out "don't pose!" to one skater whenever there are back crossovers on a Moves pattern. She tends to pause in a backward two-foot glide before every back crossover which looks weak and honestly, does make her c-cut weak because she doesn't turn the ankle to start the first push.
"You are skating like one of the babies, stand up straight, stroke harder..." in a yelling voice."
That first phrase belittles the skater publicly for everyone who hears the cue and it's not needed. All the coach had to say was "straighten up, stroke harder" but they chose an belittling sound bite to play before so as to embarrass the skater. It's a sign of desperation on the part of the coach because s/he can't verbalize the real issue and come up with a decent cue.
Again, I think that kids who are competitive, or come from abusive homes, will be able to tolerate the verbal abuse that these coaches spew forth.
I wonder how many bystander skaters stay away from competitive skating because they don't want to be treated that way?
It creates a poor environment for the rink. A good private lecture or a penalty would be better for everyone in the long run.
While some people excuse it with a "it's a competitive sport," that's really not a valid reason to scream in anger or belittle the skaters publicly. It shouldn't be tolerated and it demonstrates poor sportsmanship and self-control.
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harder..." in a yelling voice."[/b]
That first phrase belittles the skater publicly for everyone who hears the cue and it's not needed. All the coach had to say was "straighten up, stroke harder" but they chose an belittling sound bite to play before so as to embarrass the skater. It's a sign of desperation on the part of the coach because s/he can't verbalize the real issue and come up with a decent cue.
Again, I think that kids who are competitive, or come from abusive homes, will be able to tolerate the verbal abuse that these coaches spew forth.
I wonder how many bystander skaters stay away from competitive skating because they don't want to be treated that way?
It creates a poor environment for the rink. A good private lecture or a penalty would be better for everyone in the long run.
While some people excuse it with a "it's a competitive sport," that's really not a valid reason to scream in anger or belittle the skaters publicly. It shouldn't be tolerated and it demonstrates poor sportsmanship and self-control.
This is what I am wondering. Some of the most talented, hardworking girls in our area seem almost beaten down by these tactics. They are persevering because they must love the skating but I wonder if they wouldn't be even BETTER with a different approach.
I know that my girl (10) is a people pleaser type...she LOVES her coaches like family (not surprising I guess the amount of time they spend together), and she doesn't like to dissappoint people who are important to her, so if she is treated harshly, she ends up sort of withdrawing rather than stepping up.
One of the coaches was berating a little girl over her axel yesterday (it is the coming and going stage), and the girl was crying, and she actually seemed MORE afraid to try it than before the berating...I think THAT is how my dd would react-- perform worse because of fear of the ramifications of a mistake.
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A parent once told me that the "fear of loud voices" was a handicap to her child that they were trying to overcome, so they put her in group lessons to desensitize her. That's a different issue entirely, we're talking about insults, belittling, and so on.
I'm not a particularly touchy-feeling person and I don't care if someone's loud, but I object to ranting, insulting and belittling anyone. Again, it creates a hostile environment and that shouldn't be tolerated or allowed.
As someone else said, if they're so wonderful as coaches, why are they ranting? Sounds like they're not communicating well enough. Perhaps communications should be part of the CER compliance courses for top-level coaches.
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A parent once told me that the "fear of loud voices" was a handicap to her child that they were trying to overcome, so they put her in group lessons to densitize her. That's a different issue entirely, we're talking about insults, belittling, and so on.
I'm not a particularly touchy-feeling person and I don't care if someone's loud, but I object to ranting, insulting and belittling anyone. Again, it creates a hostile environment and that shouldn't be tolerated or allowed.
As someone else said, if they're so wonderful as coaches, why are they ranting? Sounds like they're not communicating well enough. Perhaps communications should be part of the CER compliance courses for top-level coaches.
English as second language? Culture?
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I'm talking about positive coaching communications.
If they need ESL, they should pursue it anyway. A director once told one of her coaches point-blank, that they had to start speaking english regularly instead of relying on others to translate.
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I'm talking about positive coaching communications.
If they need ESL, they should pursue it anyway. A director once told one of her coaches point-blank, that they had to start speaking english regularly instead of relying on others to translate.
What I mean is sometimes even though these coaches speak English, that the subtelties of communication is lost in translation.
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I've already addressed that: poor behavior and bullying by coaches isn't limited to people from other countries. I know perfectly nice people from the Ukraine and Russia who are wonderful coaches and don't berate their students publicly. I know US- and UK-born coaches who curse their heads off at their students.
Your prejudice against foreign-born coaches isn't mine, maybe because I've coached at, or skated at, many rinks so I have a broader view. Creating a rink atmosphere of fear and intimidation isn't acceptable to my way of thinking. Communications are critical.
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I've already addressed that: poor behavior and bullying by coaches isn't limited to people from other countries. I know perfectly nice people from the Ukraine and Russia who are wonderful coaches and don't berate their students publicly. I know US- and UK-born coaches who curse their heads off at their students.
Your prejudice against foreign-born coaches isn't mine, maybe because I've coached at, or skated at, many rinks so I have a broader view. Creating a rink atmosphere of fear and intimidation isn't acceptable to my way of thinking. Communications are critical.
I don't mean to convey a predjudice against foreign born coaches, I am simply conveying the pattern I see locally and I wonder if it is somewhat culturally driven (the coaching style). You are saying you don't think that is necessarily so....correct?
My last post was meant to not so much talk about yelling and berating (and I realize I wasn't clear), but that also sometimes the words don't come out as tactfully when you are speaking a language that is not your first.-- separate issue really
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Do you know that ESL courses also teach people about the colloquialisms that exist / don't exist in english? I can't understand why immigrants don't seek out that assistance to improve their language and communications skills. If you think that's the issue, help them instead of gossiping or excusing them.
You have three choices:
1) write it off as ignorance of english;
2) mention it to the skating director or the coaches themselves and hope they change; or
3) don't take lessons from that coach or at that rink if it's pervasive.
If no one ever challenges them on what they say, or corrects them, people with language barriers will continue to make the same mistakes over and over. Plus, they think it's acceptable because "no one said anything."
It's your choice: either overlook it or have it addressed. Rather than whispering in the corner, speak up if it bugs you!
Many immigrants want coaches who can speak their native language, so they will choose them over an english-speaking coach. If they're accustomed to be spoken to in an (US) abusive way, they'll hire that coach regardless of what they say.
If you're so certain that a coach is so superior with these flaws intact, do what you want. I would be concerned about what the kids are learning about motivation and communications from someone who's obviously challenged. It's your money and your family.
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Emotion is universal. Happiness, sadness, disappointment, fear, excitement, etc..... isn't relegated to specific cultures.
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one more thing......Is winning a competition or acquiring a skating skill worth risking your child's value, and self-worth? Can you sit quietly on the sidelines and watch your child being bullied into submissiveness by another adult? If you think that is what it takes to become a top level skater, is it worth it??
Fast forward 10 years from now and maybe that coach did take your skater to the olympics, battered, bruised, and "beaten down" and she/he won gold. Was it worth it? If it was, for whom was it worth it? You or your skater or your coach? Once you leave that competition, what's left. What type of child will you have if the authority figures in his/her life emotionally abused him/her along the way? What type of person will she be? What type of parent will she be?
I'd have a serious conversation with myself if I subscribed to the thought that the only way to produce a champion is through emotional abuse!
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I agree with your statement 100%.
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Do you know that ESL courses also teach people about the colloquialisms that exist / don't exist in english? I can't understand why immigrants don't seek out that assistance to improve their language and communications skills. If you think that's the issue, help them instead of gossiping or excusing them.
You have three choices:
1) write it off as ignorance of english;
2) mention it to the skating director or the coaches themselves and hope they change; or
3) don't take lessons from that coach or at that rink if it's pervasive.
If no one ever challenges them on what they say, or corrects them, people with language barriers will continue to make the same mistakes over and over. Plus, they think it's acceptable because "no one said anything."
It's your choice: either overlook it or have it addressed. Rather than whispering in the corner, speak up if it bugs you!
Many immigrants want coaches who can speak their native language, so they will choose them over an english-speaking coach. If they're accustomed to be spoken to in an (US) abusive way, they'll hire that coach regardless of what they say.
If you're so certain that a coach is so superior with these flaws intact, do what you want. I would be concerned about what the kids are learning about motivation and communications from someone who's obviously challenged. It's your money and your family.
It isn't my kids coach and I am not whispering in a corner....I am discussing an issue with others in the skating community on a forum. It isn't really my place to address it in this instance.
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one more thing......Is winning a competition or acquiring a skating skill worth risking your child's value, and self-worth? Can you sit quietly on the sidelines and watch your child being bullied into submissiveness by another adult? If you think that is what it takes to become a top level skater, is it worth it??
Fast forward 10 years from now and maybe that coach did take your skater to the olympics, battered, bruised, and "beaten down" and she/he won gold. Was it worth it? If it was, for whom was it worth it? You or your skater or your coach? Once you leave that competition, what's left. What type of child will you have if the authority figures in his/her life emotionally abused him/her along the way? What type of person will she be? What type of parent will she be?
I'd have a serious conversation with myself if I subscribed to the thought that the only way to produce a champion is through emotional abuse!
I guess I was hoping people would assure me it isn't and either/or-- that there ARE top level coaches out there than don't use fear and intimidation to get more out of their students
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Frankly, I'll take my kid's screaming, ranting, jumping up and down coach - who is equally passionate with the hugs, and the yelled "YES!" when it goes well - but who I have other parents look askance at :) over the coaches who are quiet, refined, apparently civil, nice people - and then quietly and without others "overhearing" rip the kid to shreds with their feedback, often wearing a nice smile - and who don't jump up and down with passion and glee when the kid does do it right. The ones who are masters of the snarky putdown with a pleasant smile, or who withhold warmth and caring or positive feedback as a way to manipulate the skater. Fear and intimidation can be silent as much as it can be loud and noisy. Plus, after skaters have worked long enough with the coach - they get the body language - that can make a silent presence as upsetting and terrifying as a loud noisy one yelling across the rink.
I've been around top level coaches for long enough to have seen every variant of abusive relationships; and it's not just at the top level, it also happens at the low level and the test track.
You can't judge a relationship from the outside. That's why you have to research a coach by doing more than just watching the coach before you hire on with them.
BTW: my yelling, ranting, passionate coach? A small town lady whose family would have emigrated from England about ... hmm .. 6 generations ago. And is one of those "top level" competitive coaches.
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I guess I was hoping people would assure me it isn't and either/or-- that there ARE top level coaches out there than don't use fear and intimidation to get more out of their students
But many people said just that, so I'm not sure why you're still pressing the issue.
As an aside, I met a charming, polite and soft-spoken coach today who was originally from the Ukraine. When I said I recognized the accent, which I like, he said that he was trying to get rid of it. I laughed. I have such a thick NYC accent, lol.
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It's the parent's job to make sure the child has enough confidence and self-worth not to be put down by anyone else, be it the school bully, a coach, a teacher, etc. My kids have been in competitive situations since they were 6 or so years old, and neither took it personally when the coach got emotional. They have been known to laugh at the person getting upset, actually, which doesn't always go over too well either. My younger daughter tells me she likes it when her dance instructor yells at her, it means she's trying to push her to become a better dancer, and that she sees potential there for improvement. I must point out that both of my daughters have an extremely high level of self confidence.
About the "skating like a baby" - doesn't that put an image in your head about how the skater was skating? Comparing her to the beginner skaters? She would know how she looked, so much more than a list of 'get your back up, extend your free leg, do this, don't do that', as long as she knew the difference between a beginner and a more experienced skater. When I skated, I had that image in my head, of the beginner adults, and our awkward, stiff posture. I'd try to channel an image of Michelle Kwan, to get that glide, the arch in the back, the shoulder and arm position that was so much more pleasant. Whenever my coach would try to correct me with a list of dos and don'ts, I'd forget what I was even working on.
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About the "skating like a baby" - doesn't that put an image in your head about how the skater was skating? Comparing her to the beginner skaters?
But even if the skater now knows she looks like a beginner and can picture what "skating like a baby" looks like, she still doesn't know how to fix it. It's just belittling. An occasional comment, I think isn't a big deal, but I don't think anyone can last for long in a culture of extreme negativity.
I know yesterday after my sit spin my coach said "hold on, let me think where to start" and I said "I look like an adult trying to do a sit spin?" and he said, "No, it just looks like a bad sit spin. Not an adult sit spin. D.'s an adult too- and he has a fantastic sit spin." Then he gave me ONE thing that might make it better and had me try it. After that try, I got two other things to fix. So I don't get the laundry list all at once, but if my coach agreed with my negative-nelly views of "no point in trying, adults can't do this well anyway" I don't know how long I would last with him, even though I'm pretty negative about my own skating.
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But even if the skater now knows she looks like a beginner and can picture what "skating like a baby" looks like, she still doesn't know how to fix it.
I guess different people see things differently, because I can picture in my head exactly what needs to be fixed by an image, but can never get things fixed by a coach telling me to do this or that. She always had to show me. I learned sign language the same way - I have to see someone do it, I can't follow the descriptions in a textbook at all. So, if a coach told me I was skating like a baby, I'd realize I was being sloppy and tentative, and needed to work on my posture, speed, and extension.
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Pair a skating student who makes lots of noise during lessons with an equally noisy coach!
;D
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It's the parent's job to make sure the child has enough confidence and self-worth not to be put down by anyone else, be it the school bully, a coach, a teacher, etc. My kids have been in competitive situations since they were 6 or so years old, and neither took it personally when the coach got emotional. They have been known to laugh at the person getting upset, actually, which doesn't always go over too well either. My younger daughter tells me she likes it when her dance instructor yells at her, it means she's trying to push her to become a better dancer, and that she sees potential there for improvement. I must point out that both of my daughters have an extremely high level of self confidence.
Yes, parents should do all they can to ensure their child has confidence and self worth, but to be honest, all kids are different. You are lucky that you have confident daughters. I have a very confident 15 y/o son, yet my daughter is not anywhere near as confident. They are both raised in the same environment... my son just has a different personality then my daughter does. My daughter is more of an introvert where as my son is an extrovert. My daughter internalizes and worries about things, much more then my older son does. I don't think how a child reacts to being "bullied" is always about how they are raised. I've seen very confident kids knocked down by someone else and their abusive tactics. It really is so individual.
Edited to add: I also think it is a parents responsibility to make sure their child isin an environment they can adequately learn in. My daughter would not do well with a coach who is extra loud or harsh. My daughter;s coach isn't a church mouse and pushes her, but it is a rare day to hear her put her down. I perfer that approach to yelling at my kid.
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Edited to add: I also think it is a parents responsibility to make sure their child isin an environment they can adequately learn in.
That can do more harm than good - we will not be there for our children every second of their lives. How will they ever learn to function in an environment that is not tailor-made to their needs, if we as parents always make sure they are in an adequate environment? I believe kids need to learn to adapt to every environment they can possibly experience, not the other way around. My kids know how to respond to all kinds of situations, be it a person yelling in their faces, a drunk stumbling up to them in the subway, how to find a safe place if they are lost, etc. One of their prized posessions is the worst-case scenario series, which is always a really fun read.
I've tried my hardest to keep my kids from experiencing a sheltered life, because I've seen those kids who have mommies and daddies that do everything for them, and keep everything running in a bubble, and they are the most helpless young adults I've ever met.
So, if the coach is a screamer, or says things that a parent believes are a put-down, there are three things that could be done - 1) the skater could speak up for herself 2) the parent could speak up for the skater 3) they could leave that coach. I go for option 1.
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Yes, kids should try and stand up for themselves and I DO encourage my children to do that. My older son does this very well. My daughter struggles with this. I do not coddle my daughter but I do watch out for her interests. I tell her to stand up for herself and she tries, but being assertive does not come easy for her. Unless she is home! LOL! She's coming around, but it isn't an easy thing for her.
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That's awesome though that she has your support, and is starting to stand up for herself. So many kids just learn to look to mom and/or dad to fix things for them. There are some pretty sad college stories out there, like the one where the parent followed her daughter to classes the first week, even sat in the classes to make sure they were 'right' for her daughter!
Since most skaters are not going to be Olympic material (we send 18 skaters maximum to Worlds each year) the skating experience is more of a life-lesson one. You don't always win, you learn to share space and to look where you are going, you have to get along with all kinds of people. You get 1 1/2 to 4+ minutes to show the judges what you are made of, and that's a great skill to have.
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That's awesome though that she has your support, and is starting to stand up for herself. So many kids just learn to look to mom and/or dad to fix things for them. There are some pretty sad college stories out there, like the one where the parent followed her daughter to classes the first week, even sat in the classes to make sure they were 'right' for her daughter!
Since most skaters are not going to be Olympic material (we send 18 skaters maximum to Worlds each year) the skating experience is more of a life-lesson one. You don't always win, you learn to share space and to look where you are going, you have to get along with all kinds of people. You get 1 1/2 to 4+ minutes to show the judges what you are made of, and that's a great skill to have.
I agree, it is hard for some of them, but I make mine stand up for themselves, and ask their own questions too.
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That's awesome though that she has your support, and is starting to stand up for herself. So many kids just learn to look to mom and/or dad to fix things for them. There are some pretty sad college stories out there, like the one where the parent followed her daughter to classes the first week, even sat in the classes to make sure they were 'right' for her daughter!
Since most skaters are not going to be Olympic material (we send 18 skaters maximum to Worlds each year) the skating experience is more of a life-lesson one. You don't always win, you learn to share space and to look where you are going, you have to get along with all kinds of people. You get 1 1/2 to 4+ minutes to show the judges what you are made of, and that's a great skill to have.
Oh dear... no. Following her to college is not what I would do. LOL! What I am talking about is completely different then that. I don't fix things for her at all and she very much understands how to win and how to lose. She's done it all. She definately has to make decisions for herself. In fact, I have asked that she and her coach discuss goals among themselves and decide what competitions and events she wants to do. of coarse, I have the final say, since I pay for a large percentage of her skating. The point is, I want dd to feel more in control of her skating. That is how it should be. I have to push this child to be more assertive. She has a difficult time asking the staff at the rink for help and she has been skating at this rink for years. I have to force her to do it. it is our of her comfort zone. That said, her coach is not a push over. Her coach does get one her and does use descriptive words to help her understand what she looks like. She tells her when she is being sloppy and she tells her when she is doing it right! She just isn't over the top. Some kids do better with the over the top type coach, my child would melt into the side boards. I am not one to immediately pull my child from what looks to be an uncomfortale situation...unless I can clearly see she is distressed. In 3 years of coaching, my daughter has come off the ice in tears twice. Once because of something her coach said and another time because SHE was upset wtih herself. She tends to be harder on herself then her coach is.
Anyway, this is an interesting discussion!