skatingforums
On the Ice => Sitting on the Boards Rink Side => Topic started by: AgnesNitt on February 25, 2011, 08:49:56 PM
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The other day, I had an exchange with my coach that indicated he was accustomed to skaters going to other coaches behind his back. I was able to reassure him that I "knew the rules". He is my coach and I always consult him first before going to another coach for a one off lesson. But a lot of skaters (even adults) and parents don't seem to know 'the rules'. I thought that maybe as a group effort we could put together a 'FAQ of good skater behavior' for dealing with coaches. I've been warned that this may be contentious, but below I'm going to lay out what I think are the basic rules. I hope that others will contribute, correcting me, or providing other suggestions so we can produce a FAQ.
Here is my draft:
1. Your coach is a professional. Professionals expect to be paid on time and promptly. Failure to pay your coach can damage your reputation in the skating community. Word gets around.
2. When setting up a professional relationship with a coach you should determine their policy on 'no shows'. Some coaches charge, others don't. If you don't show up, and the coach charges for no shows, you should expect to pay.
3. Your relationship with your coach is a professional one. You should be professional when working with them.
a.You should show up on time and ready to skate.
b. If you must miss a lesson , let your coach know immediately! (See rule #2)
c. If you are the skater, you should put your full effort into focusing on the coach during a lesson. No breaking off to chat with friends.
d. If your child is the skater, the parent and the coach should determine how long a lesson the child can focus. A young child may only be 15 minutes.
4. The coaching world is sensitive about 'poaching'. Poaching is a term used to indicate that a coach steals a student away from another coach. This is considered a serious breach of professional ethics. Skaters must be careful not to fall afoul of this issue.
a. If you are planning to see another coach, you should talk to your present coach *before* contacting the second coach.
b. Don't talk to other skaters who have a different coach and encourage them to come over to your coach.
c. Treat other coaches with respect, particularly regarding ice safety, but it's not their job to coach you. Don't ask them for tips.
d. If a coach other than your own, offers you skating tips, this may be in violation of PSA poaching rules. You should proceed very carefully as this can place you in the middle of two coaches.
e. If you are at a skating camp, group lessons, or other skating event with outside coaches, rule c and d above don't apply.
5. When to leave a coach:
a. A coach can 'fire' a skater. Perhaps the skater is not advancing, or fails to show up, or pay bills. If the skater shows promise but fails to practice or demonstrate self discipline, then the coach may feel it's time to part ways.
b. Sometimes the student outgrows the coach. This is tricky. There is a section on "breaking up is hard to do" below (para #8).
c. Sometimes the coach is not professional: is late, misses lessons, spends time on ice on the phone or chatting with friends. Sayonara.
e. You can't afford the lessons, you can't get to the rink on time, you're not happy with the rink and are switching rinks.
6. Social Networking
a. Friend a coach? Maybe. Some coaches use Facebook as a professional tool, others as a personal tool. A general recommendation is not to friend any professional you have a professional relationship with (doctor, lawyer, or coach) unless they indicate this is okay.
7. Picking a coach
a. Say you've seen a coach at the rink and you like their style. Perhaps other students have discussed their lessons with you, and you think you'd like to try that coach out. what do you do?
b. There are a lot of options. If you don't have a present coach, you can go to the prospective coach and ask about taking lessons. It's generally agreed that setting up a specific number of lessons, or a specific period of time is the best way to try out a new coach.
c. A coach can say 'no' to a prospective student. Perhaps there are not slots available, or the student isn't advanced enough, or is not testing, or not involved with some other aspect of skating the coach is focused on. Don't take this refusal personally. It's purely a professional decision on the coach's part.
d, Going to a new coach when you already have a coach. WARNING! Dangerous waters ahead. Generally, the etiquette is that you should tell your present coach that you are planning to leave. Set a date for the final lesson, pay all your bills. Then you are free to look for another coach.
e. The final option is to talk to your present coach and say you'd like to take lessons from both her and the new coach, perhaps on a particular issue (spins, jumps etc).
8. Breaking up is hard to do.
It's not working out. Maybe it's money, or time, or the rink, or you don't feel that you're advancing under the coach. How do you break up?
a. PAY YOUR BILLS. If you owe your coach money. Pay up.
b. Talk to the coach. Some people say 'be frank'. Others say 'be tactful' It's possible to be tactfully frank. It really depends on the issue. Money, time, and rink issues you can be frank. Everything else: be tactful. Remember, the rink is a small community. You don't want to damage your own reputation, or your coach's.
c. Separation pay. You don't owe a coach anything other than to pay bills. However, if you have to quit abruptly and without warning, a a cash equivalent to two lessons would be a gracious and thoughtful gift, especially if your relationship with the coach has been productive and successful
Christmas Gifts
a. There's no rule that you have to give your coach a gift for Christmas or a birthday. However, it is a custom that is widely honored.
b. Cash is good. Coaches like cash. Also gift cards, booze, and cookies.
c. Small children like to give actual gifts. Use your adult judgment in guiding them.
d. Don't expect a gift from your coach.
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Thank you so much for putting this together, it's great!!!
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Those are great! I think it covers just about everything except the extreme stuff like scamming or abusing.
I think it would be really awkward if I was friended with my coach. But that may just be because I'm a teenager.
So now we just need to make an instruction manual and have this as one of the pages. Then hand it out to anybody who buys an LTS session or freestyle ice. :D
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Agnes you rock the house!! Great work.
A few more things off the top of my head (all based on things I've observed):
Always inform your coach about your specific goals for competition and testing. Remember, when it comes to signing forms, it your coach who decides whether you test or not (i.e. not your Mom).
Trust your coach's advice and instruction. Just because Pro Y. teaches her students one method, doesn't mean that Pro X's different techniques are wrong.
Take some time to learn about the sport. Read the appropriate information on the USFS website; read the ISI Handbook or the USFS Rulebook; watch figure skating on TV. In short, try to have more than a passing acquaintance with what figure skating is all about. (If you have no clue and don't care to learn, then why the $#@!! are you on a figure skating club board?!?----er, did I just say that? 88))
Looking forward to the "versa" part of this FAQ!
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Thanks for this AgnesNitt. It's a very interesting and accurate representation of what the coaches would like to have happen, and complying with most of them will keep your relationship on a professional footing.
For me at least, however, as far as points 4 and 8 are concerned [*ducks behind flame-retardant cloth*], the thought of requiring the bill payer to formally sever relations with one coach before even enquiring availability with another, thus potentially leaving the skater without training, smacks to me of protectionism and patch-guarding. The coach doesn't "own" the skater, and should not be able to make it difficult for the skater to change coaches if the skater believe there is a better fit elsewhere. The involvement of any coach in the question of who coaches the skater is limited to his/her choice not to take the skater as a student.
Of course, the first coach's proper bills need to be paid, and common courtesy dictates that the skater or parent must have that "difficult discussion" with the first coach, but to my mind it shouldn't need to go further than that.
Put it this way: if I was to see a lawyer or a doctor or a [insert professional of choice], but for some reason their services weren't a good fit, there's no way I would sever relations until I had a replacement lined up. Why should coaching be any different?
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For me at least, however, as far as points 4 and 8 are concerned [*ducks behind flame-retardant cloth*], the thought of requiring the bill payer to formally sever relations with one coach before even enquiring availability with another, thus potentially leaving the skater without training, smacks to me of protectionism and patch-guarding. The coach doesn't "own" the skater, and should not be able to make it difficult for the skater to change coaches if the skater believe there is a better fit elsewhere. The involvement of any coach in the question of who coaches the skater is limited to his/her choice not to take the skater as a student.
I've only had one experience of breaking up with a coach. My coaches have retired, or left for other climes. My 'breakup' was due to rink issues, not the coach. I guess my writing was not detailed enough. I would be interested in hearing from coaches on this.
What about this approach?
Option A--the complete breakup
a. Have the difficult conversation--what's wrong, can we fix it?
b. If nothing works, tell the coach you'd like to finish up your lessons on such and such a date perhaps a few weeks in the future. You need to give to coach time to fill your slot.
c. Start looking for another coach.
Option B-the breakup two step
a. Tell the coach you'd like to take lessons with another coach as a secondary coach. Maybe you're having a problem with a particular element. Another coach's perspective can be useful.
b. Set up a series of lessons with the secondary coach. These lessons should have a definite end.
c. If you find the second coach more to your liking, go back to the primary coach, set a date for final lesson.
Looking forward to the "versa" part of this FAQ!
I think I overstepped myself there. PSA already has ethical guidelines. I'll just stick to the skater side.
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For me at least, however, as far as points 4 and 8 are concerned [*ducks behind flame-retardant cloth*], the thought of requiring the bill payer to formally sever relations with one coach before even enquiring availability with another, thus potentially leaving the skater without training, smacks to me of protectionism and patch-guarding. The coach doesn't "own" the skater, and should not be able to make it difficult for the skater to change coaches if the skater believe there is a better fit elsewhere. The involvement of any coach in the question of who coaches the skater is limited to his/her choice not to take the skater as a student.
That's perfectly normal in the figure skating world. The skater would be without training for maybe three minutes.
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Agnes you rock the house!! Great work.
A few more things off the top of my head (all based on things I've observed):
Always inform your coach about your specific goals for competition and testing. Remember, when it comes to signing forms, it your coach who decides whether you test or not (i.e. not your Mom).
Trust your coach's advice and instruction. Just because Pro Y. teaches her students one method, doesn't mean that Pro X's different techniques are wrong.
Take some time to learn about the sport. Read the appropriate information on the USFS website; read the ISI Handbook or the USFS Rulebook; watch figure skating on TV. In short, try to have more than a passing acquaintance with what figure skating is all about. (If you have no clue and don't care to learn, then why the $#@!! are you on a figure skating club board?!?----er, did I just say that? 88))
Looking forward to the "versa" part of this FAQ!
Could you write up a few short comments on this and I'll add them in. They're good points.
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Thanks for this AgnesNitt. It's a very interesting and accurate representation of what the coaches would like to have happen, and complying with most of them will keep your relationship on a professional footing.
For me at least, however, as far as points 4 and 8 are concerned [*ducks behind flame-retardant cloth*], the thought of requiring the bill payer to formally sever relations with one coach before even enquiring availability with another, thus potentially leaving the skater without training, smacks to me of protectionism and patch-guarding. The coach doesn't "own" the skater, and should not be able to make it difficult for the skater to change coaches if the skater believe there is a better fit elsewhere. The involvement of any coach in the question of who coaches the skater is limited to his/her choice not to take the skater as a student.
Of course, the first coach's proper bills need to be paid, and common courtesy dictates that the skater or parent must have that "difficult discussion" with the first coach, but to my mind it shouldn't need to go further than that.
Put it this way: if I was to see a lawyer or a doctor or a [insert professional of choice], but for some reason their services weren't a good fit, there's no way I would sever relations until I had a replacement lined up. Why should coaching be any different?
Skate Canada has in place in their coaching ethics regulations,which all coaches must follow, that coaches may not take on a student unless all bills are paid to previous coaches and that the previous coaches have confirmed this. They are able to confirm availability to a prospective student, but, may not take them on until the previous coach is notified and paid.
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That's perfectly normal in the figure skating world. The skater would be without training for maybe three minutes.
Not necessarily, it depends on the rink and the availability of other coaches to fit when the skater is available to train. I know at my rink it would be extremely difficult to get lessons with some of the coaches as they are fully booked when most skaters train. At other less popular times (when there's no freestyle or during school hours) they may have time, but even that's not guaranteed.
I've a two year plan to pick up an extra slot from my free coach, when some of the kids go to university. If I get lucky someone might change their schedule before then. I wouldn't want to go without lessons while looking for a new coach, so I would want to try to set something up before ending lessons with my current coaches if I were ever to want to switch.
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So, if you only take group lessons and not private ones, is the coach of your current group learn-to-skate/freestyle class "your" coach?
The reason I ask is I worry that I may have hurt some coaches' feelings at my old rink when I switched to a farther-away rink. I switched because the hours offered for adult group lessons at my current rink suited my schedule better than the first rink. I did send the head coach a note saying why before I signed up at the new place, but I still see my old group-lesson coaches around town when I practice locally.
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So, if you only take group lessons and not private ones, is the coach of your current group learn-to-skate/freestyle class "your" coach?
The reason I ask is I worry that I may have hurt some coaches' feelings at my old rink when I switched to a farther-away rink. I switched because the hours offered for adult group lessons at my current rink suited my schedule better than the first rink. I did send the head coach a note saying why before I signed up at the new place, but I still see my old group-lesson coaches around town when I practice locally.
You owe group coaches no loyalty. Rinks will sometimes switch group coaches around, so your relationship with the group coach is purely accidental, not something you arranged. Although I'm sure it would be a courtesy (but not essential) to mention to the coach that you've enjoyed taking lessons from them, but you're having to switch to another rink. You don't need to worry about group coaches, students drop in/drop out all the time.
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>4a. If you are planning to see another coach, you should talk to your present coach
>*before* contacting the second coach.
I ::>) love :angel to disagree...
I think discrete inquiries initiated by the skater are fine.
PSA rules are monopolistic protectionism. Think about it. In almost any other profession, as well as many other sports, breaking such rules isn't "poaching" - it is normal competitive business practice.
The best that can be said of anti-poaching rules is that they help protect skating kids from certain crazy parents who might otherwise be talked into switching coaches with radically different styles every few weeks. But crazy parents isn't a problem that is fixed that easily.
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>4a. If you are planning to see another coach, you should talk to your present coach
>*before* contacting the second coach.
I ::>) love :angel to disagree...
I think discrete inquiries initiated by the skater are fine.
PSA rules are monopolistic protectionism. Think about it. In almost any other profession, as well as many other sports, breaking such rules isn't "poaching" - it is normal competitive business practice.
The best that can be said of anti-poaching rules is that they help protect skating kids from certain crazy parents who might otherwise be talked into switching coaches with radically different styles every few weeks. But crazy parents isn't a problem that is fixed that easily.
And I disagree with your disagree.
You as an experienced skater no doubt have the breadth of experience to deal with this issue. As an adult you're perfectly free to manage your skating life as it suits you. Yours is not an approach I'd recommend to an inexperienced adult skater, a teenager, or a skating parent.
HOWEVER, as an older woman, older than some of my coaches, I have been the recipient of coach's confidences about cases of poaching. Coaches don't like the kind of behavior you describe, and believe me they talk about it. You can get a bad reputation, particularly if you're leaving a coach who is popular with the other coaches. If you are leaving a coach that other coaches dislike, not so much a problem. We don't skate in a bubble. We skate in a community. Coaches gossip. Breaking the 'poaching rules' causes a lot of unhappiness and disruption. Is it worth it? I don't think so. Why not coordinate with your coach first, and avoid the issue?
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Hmmmmm, don't know about this one, Q. What exactly is "discrete"? To some ears, that reads as "stab in the back." It's always better to be upfront, especially in the gossip-powered world of rink culture.
To the tell the truth, if I learned somebody was making discrete inquiries unbeknownst to his/her coach I would regard that person as a #@%!!. :)
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Just to be picayune, per Merriam-Webster:
Discrete: constituting a separate entity : individually distinct
Discreet: having or showing discernment or good judgment in conduct and especially in speech
I don't know which the poster meant; either could fit the situation, lol. Sorry, DH and I had a discussion about the use of these synonyms recently, so it was fresh in my mind. No criticism intended.
We've had this discussion on skatingforums several times about whether people can, or should, make their switching arrangements before showing their cards to the current coach. The PSA procedures state that any coach approached by a client must instruct them to first make contact with their current coach to discuss the situation. It's to open adult lines of communication between the client and the current coach. It's an opportunity to salvage the coaching arrangement with no hard feelings.
http://www.skatepsa.com/PDF%20Documents/Proper-changes.pdf
Whenever I'm approached by someone thinking about switching lessons, I ask them to first speak to their current coach, just to let them know. While I will answer "are you available on Tuesdays?", I preface it with a "talk to your current coach first." I'm blessed with excellent students and parents, so I wouldn't go out of my way to acquire a client who would maneuver behind my back at some point. A client who tells their coach up front about the switch? That's my kind of people - I'm honest/upfront and I like being treated that way myself. I have no problem with one of my skating students/parents saying "I'm thinking of taking lessons with ()." I just don't want to be the last to know because it smacks of underhanded backroom dealings. That's my opinion.
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So, if you only take group lessons and not private ones, is the coach of your current group learn-to-skate/freestyle class "your" coach?
Changing rinks is different than taking groups with one coach and then choosing another coach at that rink for privates, so you have no worries. In truth, group coaches rarely have any claim to a group student, except in ONE situation. IF Student A is in Coach Y's group and Student A goes to the skating director to ask for a private lesson coach recommendation, most skating directors will ask if Student A would consider taking from Coach Y first. It's just a courtesy, but the truth is that most people who are in groups and ask about privates from the Director probably aren't thrilled with the current instructor. Think about it: if you're spending 30 minutes with Coach Y, why wouldn't you ask him/her directly? So, it's just a formality, to make sure the skater knows that their group lesson instructor is also a private coach. Given schedules, some people are surprised at that revelation. (If Coach Y has most of his/her lessons in the mornings and leaves for another rink right after Saturday groups, for example. Other instructors may offer private lessons right after groups on the public session.)
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With regards to poaching, we had an incident really where one coach felt his skater had been poached by another, and my two coaches were gossiping about it. And one of them said, that poaching only occurs where the parent/skater is already somwhat dissatisfied. The compliments from the other coach will be taken as just that, compliments if the parent is happy with the current arrangements. If they're unhappy, they're open to the concept of switching coaches, which means the current coaching relationship isn't working.
The most recent coaching switch i've heard of that some people would say is poaching, I've heard the parent's view point and there was a precipitating incident which caused unhappiness and the switch took several months to happen.
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>4a. If you are planning to see another coach, you should talk to your present coach
>*before* contacting the second coach.
I ::>) love :angel to disagree...
I think discrete inquiries initiated by the skater are fine.
PSA rules are monopolistic protectionism. Think about it. In almost any other profession, as well as many other sports, breaking such rules isn't "poaching" - it is normal competitive business practice.
The best that can be said of anti-poaching rules is that they help protect skating kids from certain crazy parents who might otherwise be talked into switching coaches with radically different styles every few weeks. But crazy parents isn't a problem that is fixed that easily.
I guess the only problem is whether the coach you want to switch to will accept you as a student...there are some coaches here who do NOT accept anyone who asks be it for room purposes or that they only teach certain profiles....so you are saying you should risk being coachless?
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I have always told my current coach I was talking to another coach first - except when I hadn't taken a lesson from them in a long while, so they weren't really my current coach. And I have told most of my private coaches that I might take group lessons from someone else at the same time. I like group lessons.
But that was just a courtesy. I can't see that it should be required.
I guess the only problem is whether the coach you want to switch to will accept you as a student...there are some coaches here who do NOT accept anyone who asks be it for room purposes or that they only teach certain profiles....so you are saying you should risk being coachless?
Huh? I'm not quite clear what you are saying. Could you reword that?
It is unfortunate if coaches hate students who consider switching. A mature coach should appreciate that their particular teaching style won't work for everyone.
It must be a fairly unusual part of the culture of figure skating that the the employee is considered to own the employer, and considers such ownership ethical.
When I was taking private whitewater kayak lessons, I was approached by another instructor about taking from him. I think that is pretty common in that world. I honestly don't know if there are many worlds where the figure skating attitude is common.
If you were contracting to have something built, and weren't happy, wouldn't you feel free to talk to others, without informing the current contractor you were doing so? If you were diagnosed with a medical illness, wouldn't you feel it reasonable to seek a second opinion without asking the current doctor? If your child took lessons in math from a private tutor, and the child didn't advance fast enough, wouldn't it be reasonable to try a lesson with another tutor before telling the first one? Wouldn't you feel OK switching to a new professor for your next college course, if it is also available from the current one?
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I do regret one situation.
I was taking from a private ice dance coach, who like me was a guy, so we couldn't partner. He was a very good coach, with a strong competitive background, who coached many strongly competitive dance couples. (He was new to the area. He no longer accepts non-competitive students.)
The rink made a deal with that coach. They created many Ice Dance sessions. He taught a group lesson, and would arrange for his nationally competitive students to teach 15 minute private lessons to the group lesson students, at $1/minute. This arrangement attracted many students to the group lesson who were already taking lessons from one private coach or another, but took the opportunity to take the short private lessons from his competitive students. He told his competitive students it would be good experience towards become coaches in their own right. I took the group lessons, while continuing the privates, and started taking lessons with one of his competitive students too, who was a gal, so she could dance with me.
I don't think I knew about anti-poaching standards at the time.
Some time later I became discouraged about skating, and quit taking lessons for a while. But I later took lessons with the student again, without consulting with the first coach. It only later occurred to me that that might have been awkward for both her and the original coach, who continued to be her coach.
The first coach wasn't bad. But it is very hard to learn low level ice dance from a coach you can't dance with. Plus her English was good enough to explain things to me, as his was not.
In retrospect the arrangement the rink pushed had the potential to create awkward situations, one of which I allowed to happen. I don't know whether or not the other group lessons students knew about anti-poaching standards either. A lot of skating students don't.
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Given anti-poaching standards, it is a good thing for students to know about them.
But I still can't see how such standards are good things. You should be able to take lessons from anyone you want who is willing to teach you.
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Very interesting comparisons.
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For the most part, I agree with Agnes' (and the PSA's) no-poaching rules. A mature adult--either parent or child--should be able to explain to their coach that they feel they need to try a new approach with a different coach. I had two secondary coaches--one for freestyle, and one for dance--already lined up when I split with my coach, partly since I could see the train wreck coming.
However, one issue that doesn't seem to get addressed is what happens when the COACH is the immature one. When I decided I wanted to switch coaches--and I thought my coach was ready for me to leave too--I emailed her twice and called and left numerous messages explaining, initially, that I wanted to talk to her, and (when I got no response) eventually that I was going to switch coaches and would need acknowledgment from her that she understood this so that I could approach another coach. She refused to answer me. Luckily, the other coach knew her, tracked her down, and got her acknowledgment. Not sure what I would have done otherwise. I suppose I would eventually have had to send her a certified letter or something!
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However, one issue that doesn't seem to get addressed is what happens when the COACH is the immature one. When I decided I wanted to switch coaches--and I thought my coach was ready for me to leave too--I emailed her twice and called and left numerous messages explaining, initially, that I wanted to talk to her, and (when I got no response) eventually that I was going to switch coaches and would need acknowledgment from her that she understood this so that I could approach another coach. She refused to answer me. Luckily, the other coach knew her, tracked her down, and got her acknowledgment. Not sure what I would have done otherwise. I suppose I would eventually have had to send her a certified letter or something!
I agree the certified letter has legal prededence behind it, but if I was in your shoes, I think I would have gone to the skating director.
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^ ^ ITA
If you left messages and sent emails, you did your part to notify him/her, but the letter is definitely a solid no-argument closer. After the second attempt, I would have asked to speak with the Skating Director or Head Pro/Club officer, to make it clear that you've tried to reach the coach and that you'd be switching shortly.
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Given anti-poaching standards, it is a good thing for students to know about them.
But I still can't see how such standards are good things. You should be able to take lessons from anyone you want who is willing to teach you.
Skaters are completely free to choose any coach they want and to leave a coach at any time. It is the new coach's responsibility to touch bases with the previous coach to make sure no fees are owed. Telling your current coach you are leaving, for whatever reason, is a matter of practicality and of courtesy. As has been said, word gets around, and no one wants to be treated poorly, so if the way you leave your coach is crude and rude, other coaches may be reluctant to take you on.
As far as poaching goes, that is a matter among coaches. The term used by the PSA is soliciting. It is against PSA ethics to solicit another coach's students. It has nothing to do with a skater's choice of coach. I have seen a coach skate out to talk to students in a lesson with another coach. Quite a few students have been unethically solicited at my rink, and it is generally not a happy place to work.
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Leaving a coach: Part Duh
When I was first learning to skate, I had a coach who took phone calls on the ice and talked to her other students. I liked this coach, she was good for me, but she didn't really want to be teaching me. I was a meal ticket, and it showed. Five to ten minutes of every lesson was spent on doing other stuff.
I was timid. Shocker. But I was in a new environment, and I didn't say anything. And I hadn't learned the lesson of signing up for a number of lessons, before signing on with a coach. In a way I could see her point. I was a slow beginner, not making fast progress. She probably could take a phone call in the time it would take me to make two back crossovers.
But I *hated* it.
Now, I would address it tactfully (or not). If there's no improvement, I'd get up my courage to say. "I don't think my skill levels are good enough for you, I'd like to discontinue our professional relationship."
And in the previous paragraph the "(or not)"? Now I'm old enough and cranky enough to eyeball the coach and say, "You giving me extra time on the lesson for that phone call?" But the matter's never come up again.
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I agree with the poster that said you can't take a student that doesn't want to go. (poaching)
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I agree with the poster that said you can't take a student that doesn't want to go. (poaching)
So do I. If the student is happy with the coach, they would never be persuaded to change.
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A belated thanks to AgnesNitt and Isk8NYC for answering my question.
I do get the impression the coaches from the group lessons at my old rink are disappointed with my move, but after your replies, I won't worry about it any further. :) They are still very friendly when I see them, so that's the good news.
Re the poaching thing, I've heard other coaches (not mine) say how hurt and confused they feel when students go to another coach and they don't know the reason but they are expected to fill in the new coach on the skater's history. I guess even if there is no official obligation to avoid hurt feelings, one should try as much as is reasonable to do so.
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I agree with the poster that said you can't take a student that doesn't want to go. (poaching)
My first experience (as a bystander) with a poaching accusation was a little different and eye-opening. It's the reason why I'm so committed to doing things ethically as a coach. (This story starts like a bar tale, lol. No booze was involved.)
Back in the day before cell phones and email, a coach was in a car accident and injured, unable to work for weeks and weeks. She taught at five different rinks each week and had students all over the place, literally. She arranged for a substitute at some of the rinks, but missed one that was too far away for anyone to cover her lessons. I'll guess that she didn't speak with each client personally. I think she left some of the notifications to the grapevine, especially those at the faraway rink. Her fault? You betcha! She lived alone and was on major painkillers, so I could see cutting her some slack.
The faraway skating rink/club needed a group instructor, so they brought in someone new to the area. The group students liked her. She started teaching privates to new students on Club freestyle and made a good impression on everyone. She also gave out free coaching tips, complimented the parents, suggested training drills and off-ice programs. (No one was a PSA member, but these are classic techniques of soliciting as the PSA defines them, as sk8dreams pointed out earlier.)
Several of the injured coach's parents asked if she could give lessons to their skaters. She said yes and never spoke to the injured coach. Parents never spoke to the injured coach. The injured coach never followed up with anyone to see what they were doing during her rehab. Major communications breakdown on everyone's part.
The scene upon the injured coach's unannounced return was so dramatic that the Club and rink owner had to mediate in a back room. I was just a bystander, but I personally thought they were all wrong. One family was asked to leave the rink/club because of their behavior during the meeting and a Head Pro was appointed to deal with all private lesson situations and coaching changes to keep it above board. (A paid position because no one would want to do that for free. It added onto the club costs, btw.)
Poaching doesn't mean accepting new students from other coaches. It means that the parents/students were solicited to switch coaches. Sending an email or flyer to other coaches' skaters about a program that you're coaching can be considered solicitation. It doesn't have to be the coach, either, it could be a well-meaning parent, a skating director/head pro, or a fellow coach telling someone "Your skater should take a few privates/try this group program with Coach A, she's excellent."
Save the drama - be an adult when wanting to switch coaches. One quick email or phone call won't hurt anyone.
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It doesn't have to be the coach, either, it could be a well-meaning parent, a skating director/head pro, or a fellow coach telling someone "Your skater should take a few privates/try this group program with Coach A, she's excellent."
"Group program with Coach A" here refers to a privately run program, not rink group lessons, right? I suppose skating director is in the position to recommend any group lesson to skaters, regardless who is teaching it?
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If it's a rink-managed program, that's one thing. If Coach A is holding a skating camp or clinic, that's a little trickier. The announcement can be sent to everyone, however all coaches should be included as well. Even better - tell the coaches first and ask them to forward it to their students.
However, if the skating director's sending a message about taking private lessons with Coach A, that's dicey unless it's an elite coach or skater for a special event. Even then, best to put the word out via the coaches.
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I agree the certified letter has legal prededence behind it, but if I was in your shoes, I think I would have gone to the skating director.
Actually, the succedaneum coach (i.e., my current coach) was the skating director both at the rink I regularly skate at and my former coach's rink, which was probably why she was able to get a response! ;)
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succedaneum
Okay I had to look it up. Two years of latin, and I couldn't figure it out.
I'm impressed that you stumped me.
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At first glance, I thought it was a play on latin words, like Harry Potter, for Day that Sucks, lol. Then I read the sentence and figured it out based on the context.
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Are anti-poaching rules purely a PSA thing, that only applies to the U.S. and Canada?
I guess there is a fairness issue. If some coaches obey such rules and some don't, the ones that obey them are at a competitive disadvantage.
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What if a coach teaches someone you know poorly, and they (or their parents) don't know enough to recognize the problem?
If a plumber messes up your neighbor's home, I hope you feel free to recommend your plumber. But PSA says
No member shall in any case solicit pupils of another member, directly or indirectly, or through third parties.
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Are anti-poaching rules purely a PSA thing, that only applies to the U.S. and Canada?
I guess there is a fairness issue. If some coaches obey such rules and some don't, the ones that obey them are at a competitive disadvantage.
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What if a coach teaches someone you know poorly, and they (or their parents) don't know enough to recognize the problem?
If a plumber messes up your neighbor's home, I hope you feel free to recommend your plumber. But PSA says
<snip>
That's the most asinine thing I've ever read. Try this one on for size: you're developing a system for a client. The client has lunch with a buddy who tells him: "Query's an ass. He's doing this all wrong. You should dump him and go with SuperStar, who'll do a much better job." The client didn't think anything was wrong, but the buddy was pretty emphatic. He should then just walk away from your development without telling you and hire SuperStar? You, working remotely, will continue building the system and head into the office the following week, only to find SuperStar sitting at your desk working on the project you thought was yours to complete. Oh, and the new modules you just coded can't be reused anywhere else.
Bad-mouthing others behind their back is wrong. Most people learn it in kindergarten.
Offering an opinion when one isn't requested is also wrong. Some people never learn to mind their own business.
Poaching and solicitation just create drama and stress.
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If a student leaves a coach it's something outside the "poacher". It's some other issue between the skater and coach. A student does not leave a coach if all is good. Saying that, ending a relationship is always hard and hurtful for both coach and student. The coach, student, fellow skaters and skating parents need to handle the situation with kindness and respect. To be honest it should involve ONLY the skater and coach. I also feel that the coach and student need the opportunity to work on things before throwing in the towel. No surprises.
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I personally think there should be a middle ground. I once watched a skater in group lesson with her mother, she worked on FS3 elements but was not able to do back crossovers on a circle. And when asked the skater actually had a private coach for years, much to my surprise. Now am I in the position to hint something is not right?
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I personally think there should be a middle ground. I once watched a skater in group lesson with her mother, she worked on FS3 elements but was not able to do back crossovers on a circle. And when asked the skater actually had a private coach for years, much to my surprise. Now am I in the position to hint something is not right?
I understand your ovewhelming temptation to help [the parent? the child?] but I beg you--hold your tongue. :P The parent has eyes, and presumably a brain and can figure out on her own IF something is wrong. If you don't know the full story, you more than likely to step in a pile of doo doo.
For some people, backward crossovers take a looooonnnnngggg time to learn. Maybe this kid never practices them. If she's actually in FS3, then she somehow managed the required "Beta" crossovers at some point, the only time crossovers are on an ISI test, a beginner test.
Believe me I know how you feel. When I skated in a different part of the country,I remember a "Glamour" coach who taught all her students to flutz their lutzes. I wasn't the only one to see it. The parents of these skates seemed clueless. Of course, I never said a peep (plus who would believe me?!). I didn't need to--the flutzes generated their own problems for these skaters at the appropriate competitions and tests.
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Isk8nyc - I don't quite see your story of the coach in the car accident as poaching. I'm sure on a certain level it is poaching and I really sympathise with that coach for losing her business because of a car accident.
But look at it from the parents and skaters point of view. You've said that they weren't informed that the coach was involved in an accident and unable to work. So the first they would have known about it was when they were stood up at the rink. I don't like being stood up by anyone, but I understand circumstances are beyond people's control and forgive the odd occasion. But from their point of view it sounds like they would have been stood up for several weeks. The parents would get worried about their childrens progress and possibly would be thinking that this coach isn't coming back. At this stage a new coach arrives and provides lessons. Of course they're going to make the switch.
I can understand the scenes getting ugly when the original coach returns, but disappearing and not providing an explanation to anyone, she's no right to walk in and expect everything to return to normal.
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I agree that they all failed to communicate properly, but the solicitation of parents/students by the new coach was wrong and led to the accusations of poaching. It was justified, imo.
I know it was a long story (sorry) but there were a lot of pieces to put together to see the whole picture, which is always true in any conflict. As you know, there are multiple sides to every story. The parents and skaters felt abandoned. The new coach saw a "marketing opportunity." The injured coach saw the overtures as poaching. The new coach should have minded her own business and either backed off, suggested the parents contact the injured coach or contacted the coach herself. Arrangements could have been made amicably to keep the skaters on lesson and prevent an "in your face" conflict at the rink. All the drama would have been avoided.
If a student leaves a coach it's something outside the "poacher". It's some other issue between the skater and coach. A student does not leave a coach if all is good. Saying that, ending a relationship is always hard and hurtful for both coach and student. The coach, student, fellow skaters and skating parents need to handle the situation with kindness and respect. To be honest it should involve ONLY the skater and coach. I also feel that the coach and student need the opportunity to work on things before throwing in the towel. No surprises.
ITA. Which is why I ask anyone who approaches me about switching to first speak with their coach. It could be a simple misunderstanding (like scheduling, focus or goals) and a compromise could salvage the relationship.
My kids have had coaches that were unreliable, which is why I like the "six trial lessons" approach - it makes moving on very easy. I switched my kids from a freestyle coach to someone I chose that had more ice dance experience because they were interested in dance. I explained why to the freestyle coach and she was fine with the switch. When they asked to do freeskating with the new coach, I mentioned it off-hand to the old coach so that she wouldn't feel slighted, even though they were no longer students. I didn't want her to be caught off-guard.
Unexpected shock is what triggers outbursts from people in all walks of life. The volunteer who expected to work check in only to find herself assigned to be a runner. The office worker who finds her best client's file given to someone else. The consultant who is undermined by a co-worker. It causes self-doubt and puts them on the defensive. People don't like those kind of surprises and can usually deal with situations better if they have time to think before they speak. That lets anyone dissolve a relationship with less stress and anger.
Hopefully, we'll be able to increase lessons to add a jumps lesson. I'd start by talking to their current coach about it - who knows? She might have another coach in mind or she might recommend the old coach, who really is (imo) one of the best freeskating coaches in the area. Since we parted on very amicable terms, I'm sure that she'd agree if our schedules sync up.
I personally think there should be a middle ground. I once watched a skater in group lesson with her mother, she worked on FS3 elements but was not able to do back crossovers on a circle. And when asked the skater actually had a private coach for years, much to my surprise. Now am I in the position to hint something is not right?
Don't offer unless your advice is requested. It's possible that the skater has learning difficulties. I know of a few kids who take both groups and privates. Certain things elude them and take hours and hours of practice just to manage the element. It's not necessarily a mental issue - sometimes, it's a physical issue such as body control.
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I personally think there should be a middle ground. I once watched a skater in group lesson with her mother, she worked on FS3 elements but was not able to do back crossovers on a circle. And when asked the skater actually had a private coach for years, much to my surprise. Now am I in the position to hint something is not right?
Sorry, but I just cannot wrap my mind around how there can be any excuse for not having backward crossovers. I'd stay out of it if I were you though.
How badly injured was the coach? My coach was in a car accident once and called literally everybody within a day, though if this coach had worse injures I can see how it'd be more difficult to notify people.
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She was hospitalized with very bad injuries, couldn't walk/drive for several weeks, and had no regular support system of friends and family to care for her. She knocked on the door of a downstairs neighbor, whom she had never met, to ask for help getting up the stairs to her apartment when she came home alone from the hospital by cab. She lived hand-to-mouth money-wise, iirc, and it's possible she didn't even have her own phone. I remember her using the rink phones to make a lot of calls for her skaters.
Remember that it was back in the day before cell phones and email. Many people arranged ongoing lessons at Club sessions with just a handshake, often without even exchanging landline phone numbers. It was what many call "contract ice" where you agree to pay for ice time as part of your membership, so skaters usually came on time for every session. Coaches would come before and stay after to have discussions with parents and skaters. If you were running late, the coach just took their next student hoping you'd show up in time for the last lesson slot of the night. (Which no one really wanted because the ice was so chopped up from the ice dancers.)
If you had everyone's name in your little black book and you lost it, it would take many calls to third parties and/or Information (assuming you knew what town they lived in) to get those numbers again. Communication wasn't the injured coach's strong suit anyway. She was a little disorganized, to be frank. I could totally see her just being overwhelmed and depressed, unable to reach the families in the Faraway rink, and assuming someone else would relay the messages. I could also understand why the parents and other coach didn't reach out to her. You'd have to track her down and physically go there.
I'm not really faulting anyone in this setup, I think everyone could have done a better job of communicating and treating others as they would like to be treated. However, the free tips, compliments, etc. were inappropriate towards someone else's skating students. That's really what the core issue is in the story.
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I personally think there should be a middle ground. I once watched a skater in group lesson with her mother, she worked on FS3 elements but was not able to do back crossovers on a circle. And when asked the skater actually had a private coach for years, much to my surprise. Now am I in the position to hint something is not right?
I had the privilege of watching a high functioning autistic girl skate for a number of years at our old rink. You would have never known in a million years she was autistic unless her mother mentioned it in conversation. She had a very good private coach (maybe still does) the whole time. However, this girl could never skate backwards. The coach was extremely qualified and has taken students to Jr. and Sr. nationals. Unfortunately, if you only watched the coach with this skater and didn't know about her other students, you might jump to the conclusion that she wasn't a good coach - I mean, 6 years of privates and the child can't skate backwards???? However, if you knew the girl had autism your perspective changed and you would look, as I did, at the skater coach relationship and skills being learned as incredible!
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ISk8NYC, if I had a record of doing jobs badly, I would expect and deserve word to get around. If I sell something to someone, the buyer has a right to expect my work to meet competent professional standards, unless I warned them at the outset I might be unable to meet such standards. That is my concept of Professionalism.
If your student was harmed by ill fit boots, I'd hope you would tell the student, and not feel constrained to do so in the presence of the fitter. Likewise if a sharpener sharpens badly. If a student not your own risks serious injury because of poor boot fit, poor sharpening, or improper technique, PSA standards could make it impossible for you to say anything.
You have agreed to follow the PSA standards, and therefore have an ethical and legal obligation to do so, and perhaps an ethical obligation to report coaches who don't. But that doesn't guarantee those standards are always ideal, or are always in the best interests of the skater.
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I had the privilege of watching a high functioning autistic girl skate for a number of years at our old rink. You would have never known in a million years she was autistic unless her mother mentioned it in conversation. She had a very good private coach (maybe still does) the whole time. However, this girl could never skate backwards. The coach was extremely qualified and has taken students to Jr. and Sr. nationals. Unfortunately, if you only watched the coach with this skater and didn't know about her other students, you might jump to the conclusion that she wasn't a good coach - I mean, 6 years of privates and the child can't skate backwards???? However, if you knew the girl had autism your perspective changed and you would look, as I did, at the skater coach relationship and skills being learned as incredible!
I work with those on the Autism spectrum ... so glad to hear of the coach. There are many who are wonderful supports to students with physical and learning differences. For example, there is the hip problem that has prevented my tiniest from having proper backward crossovers after 6 years of private lessons - with coaches at the highest level of qualification who teach her for the joy of teaching skating - and who regularly take skaters to Nationals etc. You wouldn't know it to look at her ... however, the problem is there. She can jump, by the way, and has very nice edges! We've been blessed with the fact that the coaches don't make any apologies for her or to anyone for teaching her, they simply want her to love skating, and she does ... and that says a great deal about the coaches. It also says something about the people who point at her or laugh at her or don't understand her struggles, or have even had the audacity to ask the coach why they are "wasting their time" on her. Sigh. Why can't people mind their own business????
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Query, I want to reply to a few of your comments—
The neighbor most likely does not have an open ended contract with their plumber. Once the job's done and paid for, the contract is over. It's not the same in figure skating. Unless a specific number of lessons is arranged for at the start (or some other specific arrangement different from the norm) the expectation is that you will continue to take lessons from that same coach until such time as they are notified otherwise.
Of course a skater or their parents can choose whichever coach they want, and leave them whenever they want for any other coach they want. As a courtesy, they should let the first coach know before they begin lessons with the new coach, it's the right thing to do as a polite and mature adult. But, the new coach must talk to the first coach before that lesson both to make sure the first coach knows about the change and that all fees have been paid.
Similarly, if an ill-fitting boot has been already paid for, there are no further obligations to the fitter. But it would be pretty unprofessional of a competing fitter to walk around that pro-shop telling the clients to go elsewhere for a better fit or cheaper boots.
And if a coach has concerns about another coach's skater, they can (and should) bring it up with that coach and/or the skating director.
The PSA standards are designed to create a good working environment and ensure a certain level of professionalism among their members.
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Obviously there are cases like autism and hip problems. But shouldn't there be other things they can't do? That's what I don't really understand- how there can be only one thing a skater cannot do. The hip problem should be causing problems with some other elements that use the same muscles as backward crossovers, no? How high level are these skaters?
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jjane only mentioned back crossovers and three or four people gave valid reasons for a struggle. It doesn't matter how else a weakness or disability manifests. The situation would be the same if the skater had one or one hundred issues.
The question jjane asked was "Do you say anything to the parent?"
The answer was a resounding "No, MYOB."
To answer your question Sierra, of course a skater with difficulties will struggle with more than one element.
The knowledgeable people who answered appropriately (without condemning the coach) explained why the element in question (backward crossovers) might be so obviously unskilled in this situation.
sk8mum, kssk8fan, drskater: thank you all for responding with such compassion and knowledge. I only thought of a young boy I had taught last year who had motor function issues. Swizzles were difficult and painful for him.
Having taught Autism-spectrum skaters in the past, I agree that they do struggle with some skills more than others, backwards movement being a major issue. I had one delightful little girl, for whom skating lessons were a reward for good behavior in school and therapy. The mom warned me on the phone that I would probably have to hold the girl up for the lessons. HAH! She got on the ice like a pro, slipping, stroking and sliding with no fear. She could do one-foot glides by the end of her first lesson/time on the ice. Backward wiggles were enough to make her agitated, though. They were difficult, scary and frustrating to her. I used to time that part of the lesson/practice.
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Okay, so we add a new paragraph "When to mind your own business".
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You mind your own business when it's none of your business. Skaters progress at their own rate; skaters and parents have different goals; people with learning and physical differences do NOT want people poking into their business with comments like, "oh, she can't do [insert here] yet?" or, "you know, if you just took her to [insert doctor, physio, coach here] she would do so much better." Unless you have a close personal relationship, and even then recognizing that many people are very private in terms of these things, stay out of personal territory. My older DD has had to hold her head high on many occasions when snotty brats [sorry, venting] and/or their parents make caustic comments about her inability to do certain things on the ice; she doesn't wear a sign around her neck that says SORRY I BROKE MY LEG REALLY BADLY AS A KID AND SO I CAN'T USE IT PROPERLY - and she doesnt want any pity. Note that she is also a Gold level (top level) skater in Canada, an evaluator, and a judge ... just not Gold in freeskate, yet, and maybe never, because that darned leg just won't do some things that she would really like it to do! You know the comments ... "I got my double in 3 months - how long have YOU been working on it? REALLY?" or "wow, I can't believe you took THAT long to do ", or, "but, everybody can do [insert here]."
Basically, if we want your advice, we'll ask for it. If, however, you see a coach or someone else doing something illegal, then come forward to the appropriate authorities - whether it be sexual, drug related, abusive, etc. Don't gossip behind the coaches' back, and don't drop snide comments about the coach ... if you think something is seriously wrong, be prepared to stand up and come forward about it.
And, as a Special Education teacher: most of my beloved kids want to fit in. They don't want your pity, or to be labelled, or criticized, or pointed at, or presented with "miracle cures" or "stories about their cousins' child who did [insert here] and everything was great" - particularly from people outside of their own circle. They want to do stuff without being made to feel uncomfortable or "failures", and they also don't want to be patronized or smarmed over. They're not freaks - they're people who are struggling with challelenges many of us can never comprehend, and God Bless those who let them succeed in their own way!
[as usual, putting soapbox back under the sink where it lives]
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Okay, so we add a new paragraph "When to mind your own business".
I didn't know you were keeping track!
If, however, you see a coach or someone else doing something illegal, then come forward to the appropriate authorities - whether it be sexual, drug related, abusive, etc. Don't gossip behind the coaches' back, and don't drop snide comments about the coach ... if you think something is seriously wrong, be prepared to stand up and come forward about it.
Agnes-Put this on the list, too, please!
Thanks Sk8tmum for the sensitivity lecture. It was accurate and clear.
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Yes, lots of interesting comments that deserve to be addressed. I never realized for example that 'group coach' versus 'private coach' needed to be clarified, or that such a strong 'Mind your own business' discussion would come out of poaching/soliciting. And the poaching / soliciting sub-thread revealed subtleties worth commenting on. And more.
And sk8mum, good call on the illegal activities issue. As my rink just lost a well thought of coach for kiddie porn (no one knew, he kept it out of the rink, it was a police sting) I'm aware of how disturbing it can be.
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I agree with the poster that said you can't take a student that doesn't want to go. (poaching)
Yes & No. I've had the unfortunate experience of seeing parents switch their kids, who were doing just fine, from one coach to another because of hype. This particular forum is public, so I can't go into details, but a concerted effort was made to solicit kids and it has worked in quite a few cases. I know all of the coaches & kids & parents involved (I'm not involved, just a witness), and what I saw was sneaky, underhanded, unethical, and hurtful both emotionally and financially. I have a lot of respect for the parents who were not blinded by the bling. There are times when figure skating totally disgusts me.
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Learn something new everyday! It's really helpful to hear different opinions and thank you very much for the information on special skaters and sensitivity analysis.
In the crossover example I mentioned, the skater's mother went into her concerns on lack of progress etc. and the talk about basic skills followed as group lesson coach made skaters do crossover circles.
MYOB, like skater-coach relationship, also has gray areas. Some things are subjective judgments (you've been skating for years and can't do a decent crossover?!) and some things are objective, widely accepted standards (crossovers are the basics of basics in figure skating). I will never have problems pointing out the importance of crossovers if the conversation warrants so. New skaters or parents are not stupid, but they could be in total darkness for a long time and the cost is huge. I am still fighting muscle memory on cheated crossovers and can't imagine how difficult it is to fix ingrained flutzes after finding it out the hard way.
I am grateful for my public skating buddies who showed me tons of mohawks when I struggled, pointed out I was practicing in a dangerous way, that my toe loop was cheated, that rink pro shop knows nothing about figure skate sharpening etc. etc. Okay giving skating tips to others is another sensitive topic, but I was obviously in need of help and appreciated every bit of information. They were not 100% correct yet gave helpful perspectives that I would not have known before.
To this day I help new skaters on publics IF he or she is clearly struggling, ask "are you OK" when there is a huge crash, or tell people about soakers if it's obvious they store skates in hard guards. Care and attention build community, and those who don't need the extra help smile and say "no, thanks".
Opinions vary, and I accept it =)
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OMG--re-reading this thread with new interest...
My husband and I just found out that we'll be moving to the Washington, DC area. It is a good move for us both in terms of jobs, but I'm terrified of the whole process of finding a new coach and rink!
When I told my current beloved Pro that I was moving I broke down in tears. :'( It feels like a death; not at all like a shift in a business relationship. Maybe this is an inaccurate comparison, but the transition feels like losing a darling pet--and then thinking about getting a new one while the wounds are still fresh. I know I will always be friends with my coach and that I will miss her terribly.
Skating is too important to us to give up, and we're actually going to figure in rink location in our decision where we'll live--most likely Northern Virginia but possibly MD. If anyone has experience and or strong opinions about particular rinks, could you please share? Please feel free to PM me. I guess I'm looking for some reassurance here...
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I've skated at a lot of excellent rinks and from what I'm told there are world class coaches in the DC area.
Why not take a two week vacation before you move and look for a house while checking out the rinks?
At least two (Mt Vernon is one) have weeknight adult sessions.
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OMG--re-reading this thread with new interest...
My husband and I just found out that we'll be moving to the Washington, DC area. It is a good move for us both in terms of jobs, but I'm terrified of the whole process of finding a new coach and rink!
When I told my current beloved Pro that I was moving I broke down in tears. :'( It feels like a death; not at all like a shift in a business relationship. Maybe this is an inaccurate comparison, but the transition feels like losing a darling pet--and then thinking about getting a new one while the wounds are still fresh. I know I will always be friends with my coach and that I will miss her terribly.
Skating is too important to us to give up, and we're actually going to figure in rink location in our decision where we'll live--most likely Northern Virginia but possibly MD. If anyone has experience and or strong opinions about particular rinks, could you please share? Please feel free to PM me. I guess I'm looking for some reassurance here...
You've got mail :)
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When I told my current beloved Pro that I was moving I broke down in tears. :'( It feels like a death; not at all like a shift in a business relationship. Maybe this is an inaccurate comparison, but the transition feels like losing a darling pet--and then thinking about getting a new one while the wounds are still fresh. I know I will always be friends with my coach and that I will miss her terribly.
When we moved, our kids lost their beloved LTS coach - sort of. Over the years, we've kept in touch with e-mail, pictures sent, updates; met up when we can; and generally included her in all of their successes. It means a lot to them that they've maintained that tie, and it's someone important to celebrate successes with. Every so often, they go back and "show off" what they've learnt, and everyone feels great about it.
We also asked for a reference/recommendation for a new coach and club before we left. The skating world is small on many fronts ... and coaches often know of someone, or know someone who WILL know, who can help out with choices. Just a thought; plus, it's nice for the current coach to be asked, as it makes them feel like they are important and their opinion is valued ... plus allowing them to contribute in a meaningful way.
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We also asked for a reference/recommendation for a new coach and club before we left. The skating world is small on many fronts ... and coaches often know of someone, or know someone who WILL know, who can help out with choices. Just a thought; plus, it's nice for the current coach to be asked, as it makes them feel like they are important and their opinion is valued ... plus allowing them to contribute in a meaningful way.
The skating world is very small. I managed to get a recommendation for a transatlantic coach, and I've got another one now transpacific (for when I decide to move to Australia). Bizarrely every free coach I've had can be traced back to the original one. There's a connection there, even if I didn't know it at the time.
It's worth asking for the recommendation, as it's really nice to have a connection when you first arrive and it helps maintain the relationship with the old.
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Actually, the succedaneum coach (i.e., my current coach) was the skating director both at the rink I regularly skate at and my former coach's rink, which was probably why she was able to get a response! ;)
It was a Natl. Spelling Bee championship word a few years ago and my husband didn't believe I could use it in everyday life.
First time I've used it in a forum but it's in my work reports fairly often!
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In the "A Series of Unfortunate Events" book series, the next-to-last book was "The Penultimate Peril." (Illiteration was in all the titles.) I had to look it up in a dictionary when I read the title on B&N's website, because I had never read/heard the word "penultimate," which means next-to-last.
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and so what does succedaneum or do I need to find a dictionary?
I wonder if penultimate is an English English word, rather like fortnight, rather than a American English word?
Thread drift...
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Since you still have a coach for the moment, as per the subject of this thread, we aren't allowed to give you recommendations on a new coach! Students aren't allowed to solicit for their coaches - the coach can get in trouble with the PSA if we do.
Once that ends, I would be happy to send you the names of some good coaches I know - but it depends a lot on where you will live and work. And, as I sent in my message, clubs and rinks often list coach bios.
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Since you still have a coach for the moment, as per the subject of this thread, we aren't allowed to give you recommendations on a new coach! Students aren't allowed to solicit for their coaches - the coach can get in trouble with the PSA if we do.
Query, she's already informed her coach she's leaving.
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Since you still have a coach for the moment, as per the subject of this thread, we aren't allowed to give you recommendations on a new coach! Students aren't allowed to solicit for their coaches - the coach can get in trouble with the PSA if we do.
Once that ends, I would be happy to send you the names of some good coaches I know - but it depends a lot on where you will live and work. And, as I sent in my message, clubs and rinks often list coach bios.
It's amazing - three pages of posts explaining the rules and why they exist but you still don't get it, do you?
Perhaps instead of writing snarky little jibes at the PSA rules and those who follow the rules, you should buy a clue.
Giving out invalid information and advice isn't the way to establish yourself as a knowledgeable expert.
She's already informed her coach that she's moving, and she ASKED for recommendations from knowledgeable people.
That covers the two main rules - 1) Tell the coach first and 2) MYOB unless asked.
All she has to do is evaluate and take a few trial lessons with the coaches that are recommended, and she's all set with no drama.
See what happens when you follow the rules? It's so easy to switch coaches without anything more than sadness (in this case)
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Since you still have a coach for the moment, as per the subject of this thread, we aren't allowed to give you recommendations on a new coach! Students aren't allowed to solicit for their coaches - the coach can get in trouble with the PSA if we do.
Once that ends, I would be happy to send you the names of some good coaches I know - but it depends a lot on where you will live and work. And, as I sent in my message, clubs and rinks often list coach bios.
Yikes!I do NOT want to hijack this thread! Thanks to everyone who sent me info about DC area rinks. There are only two rinks where I live--you don't know how lucky you are!
To clarify: I never asked for coach recommendations! I can handle that situation in the appropriate way at the appropriate time. I never would've announced I was "leaving" my Pro without first telling her. In fact, I asked her to move with me, but (alas) she declined (ha ha).
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I know with my coach she helps all her students outside of lessons (she seems to help me a lot, she says I'm catching onto moves very quickly (working on silver and just started training with her back in August) and will come over and say "Let me see how this looks". She's wonderful and probably my number 1 reason (next to being very close to my family) that I didn't pursue up and leaving and moving to Chicago or somewhere after I graduated college in December. I couldn't bear the thought of trying to find another coach that is as attentive as she is. On publics on Saturdays after we both teach LTS we just go to the center and play around and she's got 2 other students (one in LTS who is SO eager to learn and one that just switched to privates) and we all practice and she helps us fix things and we just have fun. We also look out for the kids that have no idea to watch out for someone spinning.
We all help each other outside of class, too. One of my friends is working on three turns, and she's scared to get on her edge, so I will do one that maps out where the turn should be and then offer a hand on one end, and then after she turns her arm has to touch the other hand (it's a trick my coach YEARS ago back when I first started would have me do just so I had some sort of support behind me). I always worry a little bit about helping her but my coach has seen me helping her in those ways and has never said anything about it. She's someone who would tell me if I shouldn't. I never overstep my boundaries by teaching new moves though. I've passed all of the moves this girl is working on and I just lend her a hand because she is very scared to do things sometimes, and I just offer encouragement when she does them well. :) My friends (who are also students of hers) have given me tips on backspins as well (just showing me how they do theirs and their methods of entry so I could try them all) and helped me find the sweet spot for that. Five months in to learning that I'm just now finding it lol.
But I have such a supportive coach who pushes me and encourages me to the point that I can't imagine myself with another one. Heck she even corralled little kids into a corner during my testing so I didn't worry about having to dodge them. :)
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But I have such a supportive coach who pushes me and encourages me to the point that I can't imagine myself with another one.
I feel the same way, davincisoprano. I think the most important thing about the coach is not the technical, written-in-a-rule things, but your actual, personal connection with them. Sometimes I wonder if I would still be skating if my coach hadn't been around.
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I feel the same way, davincisoprano. I think the most important thing about the coach is not the technical, written-in-a-rule things, but your actual, personal connection with them. Sometimes I wonder if I would still be skating if my coach hadn't been around.
Well I know for me when I was younger I had a very nice supportive coach who had to stop coaching because her job was getting in the way. But I remembered seeing other children get yelled at by some of the other coaches (one of them scared the absolute living daylights out of me) and so when I came to my current rink I was looking at some of the coaches there knowing I wanted to find one I could get along with and not be scared of or yell at me lol. I was working on spins and my current coach came up, offered some pointers and gave me her business card. Actually I got her business card about 5 times between the first one and when I was finally able to afford taking lessons lol. :) She knew though once I went into LTS as a refresher that I was planning on taking lessons from her, I just had to get my job at the rink first and earn some money. She was very patient and it paid off. :)
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I was working on spins and my current coach came up, offered some pointers and gave me her business card. Actually I got her business card about 5 times between the first one and when I was finally able to afford taking lessons lol. :)
I'm glad she's so great for you. Good coaches are like good coffee - sometimes hard to find!
Not being in the US so I'm genuinely not sure: does davinci's experience count as "soliciting" per the US PSA rules? I'm not sure whether it would be allowed here in relation to skaters who don't have a coach - AFAIK, it's prohibited by APSA (the Australian PSA) rules if there's already a coach in place.
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Yes, if the skater has obviously had lessons before, as in this case, offering tips and giving her a business card for private lessons is soliciting. You have to assume that the skater already has a coach. You can always ask if you're not certain. However, it sounds like davincisoprano had made it clear that she didn't already have a coach and that she welcomed the free lessons, so no harm, no foul.
Not being in the US so I'm not sure: does this count as "soliciting" per the PSA rules?
BTW, the Australian Professional Skater's Association Incorporated (APSA) has a code of ethics that's very similar to the PSA's. That includes the 'no soliciting' and 'new coach asks old coach first' rules.
http://www.apsa.net.au/Documents/APSA/2011/APSA%20Inc%20%20Code%20of%20Ethics.pdf
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Thanks Isk8NYC - I had just pressed send on an edit (to add notes re Aust rules) when your response came in.
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Was this link posted yet? http://www.skatepsa.com/PDF%20Documents/What%20are%20Solicitation,Promotion%20and%20Tampering.pdf
I stand corrected - Query's being undermined by another is really tampering, not solicitation. Still wrong, just has a different label.
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To clear it up I was a new face around there (moved so it was a new rink) and she asked if id had lessons before and I had told her yes but that I quit for a few years and was coming back into it. :)
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The skating world is very small. I managed to get a recommendation for a transatlantic coach, and I've got another one now transpacific (for when I decide to move to Australia). Bizarrely every free coach I've had can be traced back to the original one. There's a connection there, even if I didn't know it at the time.
It's worth asking for the recommendation, as it's really nice to have a connection when you first arrive and it helps maintain the relationship with the old.
I agree with this! Most coaches know coaches all over and they may even be able to recommend a coach that has a similar teaching style. And if that coach has a waiting list or limited availability, you may have a better chance of getting a spot if you are referred by a colleague.
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I always talk to dd's primary coach whenever we are considering adding in extra lessons with a different coach. I do NOT want to upset dd's coach in any way. Nor do I want to get a reputation for going behind her back. Dd has been with her coach for over 3 years and I don't plan on changing primary coaches unless her coach moves or we move. I also want to make sure she thinks adding the extra lessons would be helpful to dd's training. We are on a tight budget. I value dd's coaches opinion and I do not want to add anything to dd's training that isn't going to benefit her. Plus, if we add coaching, I want dd's primary coach to be comfortable with other coaches I add into the mix. I can't imagine it being a good fit if dd's coach and the secondary coach didn't get along!
Being a figure skating parent is confusing. There is so much to learn and just when you think you understand it all, you learn something new. Skating etiquitte(sp?) is something you learn as you go. I wish it wasn't that way, but around here it seems to be the nature of the beast.
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Here's something I always wonder about. We have about 8 skaters who routinely come to a daytime rink-sponsored figure skating hour. 4 of us are adults and we often show each other our latest trick or success and then we all try to do it. There are also several home-schooled kids on the ice. Recently they saw me doing two things they wanted to learn how to do, a hydroblade and a fan spiral. I showed them how they were done then freaked because I wondered if I was soliciting. I then repeatedly told the mom, who was on the ice, to get their coach to show them how to do it. Is that soliciting or some variation, even though the adult skaters on the ice all do this routinely since we're all friends and are often goofing around like this?
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I think you're fine with the adults. I'm not sure about the kiddies, though, since they take lessons with someone else.
Make sure you don't bad-mouth their coaches, though.
Approach the skaters' coach(es) and clue them in, asking if they object to your explaining your tricks.
The worst thing that could happen is that they say "please don't." You'll be honest and upfront, which is really what it's all about.
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Here's something I always wonder about. We have about 8 skaters who routinely come to a daytime rink-sponsored figure skating hour. 4 of us are adults and we often show each other our latest trick or success and then we all try to do it. There are also several home-schooled kids on the ice. Recently they saw me doing two things they wanted to learn how to do, a hydroblade and a fan spiral. I showed them how they were done then freaked because I wondered if I was soliciting. I then repeatedly told the mom, who was on the ice, to get their coach to show them how to do it. Is that soliciting or some variation, even though the adult skaters on the ice all do this routinely since we're all friends and are often goofing around like this?
In my opinion, I would say no. I do not see the harm in what you did. My daughter's coach would be thrilled to see her trying a new move. I don't see how that is any different then trying to copy-cat what someone else is doing. You did not give them lessons, you just showed them how to do something after they asked you how to do it. You also said to have their coach show them too. Nothing wrong with that. JMO... of coarse.
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Here's something I always wonder about. We have about 8 skaters who routinely come to a daytime rink-sponsored figure skating hour. 4 of us are adults and we often show each other our latest trick or success and then we all try to do it. There are also several home-schooled kids on the ice. Recently they saw me doing two things they wanted to learn how to do, a hydroblade and a fan spiral. I showed them how they were done then freaked because I wondered if I was soliciting. I then repeatedly told the mom, who was on the ice, to get their coach to show them how to do it. Is that soliciting or some variation, even though the adult skaters on the ice all do this routinely since we're all friends and are often goofing around like this?
I think the kids would probably try the hydro and fan spiral anyway. The 'trick elements'- for lack of better term- hydroblades, spirals of all variations, shoot the ducks, lunge tricks, etc. all get passed around between kids- I don't think my coach has ever actually taught me a 'trick element,' I just see friends do it and we all try it together.
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FWIW, I do teach "tricks" because it's safer for the skaters and it gives them something fun to work on for programs. I try to spread out the different moves among my students, so they have some variety to show each other.
I always feel bad for the "leader" when one of the copycats can do a trick better on the first try.
I think that sharing small things like that is fine and actually keeps skaters invested in the sport. It's a way to share friendship on the ice, as long as it's not something complicated. I hate it when someone "teaches" a student something too advanced, like a layback for a skater who can't center a scratch spin yet. Before I know they're playing around with it, they've already self-taught themselves bad technique and habits.
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I actually talked to the kids' coach a few days ago, before I was able to remember where I put this post (flake, flake...). She's okay with me showing them the tricks although she'd rather the youngest one worked more on her basics. Funny, the kid isn't in a screaming hurry to imitate me when I spend 30 minutes working on my silver FO-BI 3 pattern!! ;)
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I hate it when someone "teaches" a student something too advanced, like a layback for a skater who can't center a scratch spin yet. Before I know they're playing around with it, they've already self-taught themselves bad technique and habits.
ITA. I've seen so many dreadful "Bielmanns" "Y-Spirals" and "laybacks" and "Hair-cutters" that have resulted from skaters who are so focussed on doing the "fun stuff" (and often impressing their friends by being able to say they are able to do thus-and-so) - that they don't work on the basics; or skaters who are determined to do their doubles and don't realize that they should be working on making sure their singles are correctly done. Skaters trying to do donut spins who can't do a proper camel ... etc etc etc. Then, when the coach is ready to teach an element to the skater, there is the poor technique to be unlearned, and the time spent doing these "cool" tricks means that it takes longer for the basic positions to be mastered. And, often, they are learning these "tricks" from someone who has taught themselves to do it - and probably doesn't have good technique themselves (particularly kids; adults are more likely to be sensible about these things, in terms of showing it to another and knowing their own limitations).
And, of course, there is the risk of injury: a "Bielmann" and some of the others can cause significant injury to a skater if it is trained and/or done improperly.
Skaters need to listen to their coaches and ask about doing more complicated elements; I do know that our coaches, who are hyper-aware of EVERYTHING that goes on on the ice, will have serious conversations with a skater who is working on "tricks" with incorrect technique and/or neglecting what they are supposed to be working on. Challenging oneself is one thing ... playing about with 'stuff' is another.
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ITA. I've seen so many dreadful "Bielmanns" "Y-Spirals" and "laybacks" and "Hair-cutters" that have resulted from skaters who are so focussed on doing the "fun stuff"
Yup, I can't stand the ugly Biells and other contortionist positions. One coach here actually has this kid doing a Biellmann spin in her program (no-test/pre pre) and the kid is in no way flexible enough, nor can she get past a half revolution before tipping out of the spin. I haven't even tried a Biell on the ice yet (spiral, not spin) because it takes me a half hour to stretch out enough to do one that's not ugly, and I'm certainly not about to go 'show off' an underextended one after stretching for two minutes at the boards.
A great way to force a kid into practicing the basics is to put them in nice, stiff new boots with blades much more advanced than their old ones. The first few times I skated in my new skates, all I did was practice my three turns and crossovers, because that's all I could do. 3turns got quite a lot of benefit from that, and bad-side crossovers improved greatly too. :D
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I started working with a new skater a few months ago that has some gymnastics and roller skating (no jumping) experience. She is 12 and when I started with her she was placed in Basic 4 because she couldn't do forward crossovers. On our first lesson she told me that she could do jumps after watching some guy on a public session. To humor her, I asked her to show me and she did a sour cow. I asked her not to do anymore jumps until I taught them to her so she would learn the technique properly and to make sure she had developed her basic skating skills first. Happily she obliged and last week she just learned a waltz jump after finishing all of the other skills in Basic Skills.
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sour cow.
:D :D :D
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sour cow
I'm totally boosting this for a post count group. You're the first member!
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That's perfectly normal in the figure skating world. The skater would be without training for maybe three minutes.
3 minutes is a pipe dream, especially at smaller rinks.
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3 minutes is a pipe dream, especially at smaller rinks.
She was exaggerating, of course, but it really is the preferred method to first notify the current coach before approaching other coaches about availability. On the other hand, if you start interviewing coaches first, they won't want to accept a student whose family doesn't show consideration for the current coaching situation. "You can be replaced" is the attitude that communicates and no one wants to feel disposable. At a smaller rink, you might never find a coach willing to accept you as a new student, as you know.
Is it uncomfortable to say "I think we're going to try another coach - just letting you know in advance."? Sure, it's uncomfortable, but it opens a dialogue and allows the opportunity to either salvage the current relationship, augment it, or to part company without burning bridges. All PSA coaches know what to do when a client says "I'd like to talk to you about this..." If a coach makes a fuss, barring unpaid bills, they have bigger issues than losing a student. If you're old enough to spend the money, be mature enough to treat people the way you'd want to be treated.
To address someone's else criticism: this has nothing to do with "ownership" of students. It's courtesy and professionalism.
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I have a question, what is the protocol for switching clubs and therefore, coaches? Out of necessity, I am thinking about switching clubs after the close of our spring session. I would like to approach coaches at the new club and find out who would be willing or have time for my DDs. I would definitely let my current coach know about our plans at the end of the session and pay all bills but would approaching coaches at the new club before finishing with the current one be wrong? The reason I am waiting until the end of the session is that my DDs both have tests and competitions coming up in the next month and I wouldn't want to jeapordize their results.
The reason for the change of club is a combination of having outgrown our current coach and availability of a wider variety of sessions in a larger club with more options. I know we will see our current coach at events and I would hate for their to be bad feelings.
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Talk to your current coach before you approach a new one at the new club. Word of mouth travels faster than the speed of light. ;)
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The most important thing will be to talk to your current coach before switching and make sure he or she knows why you are switching.
I don't know of any specific protocol for changing clubs. Unless your current skating club has been fantastic to your family, you don't owe them anything, but you should still be polite to that club's members. The main issue I have seen with switching clubs (especially from a smaller club to a "better" one) is that the skaters and their families sometimes pretend not to know members of their former club like they are too good to be associated with them.
Tests and competitions often use judges that are not associated with the host club, so that shouldn't be an issue. Even if they are members of your current club, judging ethics requires that they judge impartially.
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Alright, thanks for the good advice. Mostly, I am planning to switch because our current club only offers Freeskate two days a week while the other club has it six and my DD wants to skate more. The two days a week offered are also a direct conflict with my work schedule and though we tried it last year, it wasn't very successful or productive. I don't think our current coach will be very receptive to the change but I have to do what will be in our best interest. I will definitely let her know before moving ahead though.
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The May 18 post on Xanboni (http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/) has an excellent discussion on Private coach vs Group coach.