Incredible Edger sharpening machine

[supersharp]

It would be great if everyone who sharpens could give an estimate of how long it takes to sharpen a pair of skates.

Skates in good condition requiring no cross-grinding and having no edge defects that require removing more metal (such as a long defect on one edge where they skated over something in the ice, leaving a big skiddy area that must be removed) take me about 45 minutes or pair now that I am not doing hand work.

If I add in cross-grinding, it can easily take an hour.

I always start by spraying the boots with a smell-reducer,  straightening the laces and lacing them all the way up to get the laces out of the way.  It's a good opportunity to inspect the laces and let the skater know if there are weak spots.

If the soles are leather, at the end I apply some Obernauf Boot Treatment to the soles and heels to keep the leather happy.  I also check for loose screws. If the boots are new and I'm mounting blades, I use SnoSeal on leather soles before I mount.

[Bill_S]

I'm probably spending 45 minutes per blade average. I spend much of the time setting up, and then checking edge level and sharpness between passes.

I spend much more time if someone gives me blades with badly uneven edges. I can't use the Sharpie mark in the hollow to setup in that case, and I have to take a lot of passes to get them level again, re-checking with each pass. For healthy blades without a ROH change, I try to get them sharp in less than 5 passes to preserve blade metal. It often takes at least 3 sharpening passes to show new metal edge-to-edge.

I check mounting screws on blades too. Instead of lacing the boots, I tie them together and tuck the extra length inside the boots to prevent them from getting caught on anything. Loose laces near a grinding wheel rotating at speed makes me nervous.

If someone gives me new blades to sharpen, I trace the blade profiles onto paper and file them away for future reference.

[Query]

Wow. How much of those times, were spent in the actual sharpening, rather than skate examination and preparation?

I'm guessing you two are talking about blades that haven't been sharpened in a long time, right? Presumably a touch-up sharpening, done within about 40 hours or less of the last sharpening wouldn't take nearly that long?

I realize there is a practice effect, and you shouldn't expect to go as fast as someone who spends hours sharpening day after day, year after year. And none of you have bought the $20,000 - $30,000 machines that busy pro shops buy, which might slow you down a little.

I've never seen any professional skate tech, including an acknowledged world class expert, take more than 10 minutes / pair just to sharpen - and rarely that long. Mostly they take several minutes / pair typical. The ones who IMO shouldn't be in business, sometimes go faster than that - but they often sacrifice edge quality.

Some techs might spend a couple extra minutes checking that the screws are all still tight, and they might check for warp.


I'm faster using Pro-Filer hand tools, on my own blades. I modified my tools to work efficiently with my blades, which are all now old style Ultima Matrix 1 runners, all of the same thickness. Matrix 1 runners were not warped. and on a short length hand tool, that wouldn't have mattered much anyway.

All I do (and mind you, have had over a decade of practice) is:

1. Wet the blades (several times during the process) to lubricate the hollow and edges. When I used oil, I only needed to do it once, but water makes less mess.

2. Feel the edge to decide whether the edges are still good but just knocked over. If so, it takes me a minute or so / blade to straighten the the edges.

3. If they need sharpening, I take about 10 - 15 strokes on the Pro-Filer / blade - and once in a while another 5-15 each to re-establish the sweet spots.
    (If it has been a while since my last sharpening I might take 20 or 30 strokes on the coarse stone first.)
    I reverse the orientation of the sharpener several times during the process to insure that the edges are even. It helps that I've modified the tool a little to get the centering and gap width right for my blades.   

4. I polish and straighten the edges with a flat hand stone.

5. I sometimes check screw and bolt tightness with a screwdriver.

This is usually all over in a few minutes / pair for touch-up sharpening, maybe 10 minutes otherwise, 15 very rarely on the outside.

On rare occasion, I take a few minutes to check the profile against my photocopied or traced profiles. Very Infrequent, because hand tools remove very little metal / sharpening.

Since all the Matrix I blades were of the same thickness, I don't need to re-adjust gap thickness or centering.

I always use the same ROH. Pro-filer abrasive cylinders are durable enough not to need redressing. Once in a while I wash them.

I don't need to check edge levelness any more, because the sharpener orientation reversal and the adjusted gap width, together with practice, guarantees they will be level. Since you guys presumably sharpen many different blades, perhaps you need to.

I don't need to untwist the laces, because I've switched to good quality round nylon parachute cord. It doesn't twist, and essentially never wears out (being of kernmantel design), though like anything else it can get dirty - so I've replaced them once. Once or twice I've re-melted the ends to be easy to pull through holes. But those things are so infrequent as not to count here.

Upon very rare occasion I use a micrometer or calipers purely out of curiosity to see how much metal I've lost, but that is completely unnecessary, and doesn't count.

On quite rare occasion I might re-wax the soles of the boots - but that has nothing to do with sharpening.

Also on quite rare occasion, I might modify or re-cut myself some insoles, if the old ones have gotten squished out of my desired shape - but again that has nothing to do with sharpening.

I've only twice spent anywhere the time you are talking about:

1. I once tried to give a pair of Ultima Dance runners the profile of MK Dance blades (a not very successful experiment, because profile isn't the only difference), using a basic bench grinder, completely killing the hollow and probably creating some unevenness, Basic bench grinders are very poor tools for that purpose, so I took a lot of time doing it, including many intermediate shape checks. I then took that pair to a pretty good tech. He complained that it took him 15 minutes to re-create a good hollow - but he always used a fine grit wheel (which is unusual, though I knew another tech who sometimes did an initial pass or two with a medium grit wheel, then switched to fine), and did a good careful job. But I assume that sort of major modification is not what you other folks are talking about.

2. I once tried to rescue blades that were badly rusted in a minor flood. I did a poor job, because too much metal needed to be removed. I forget whether I eventually threw them away, or took them to a professional shop with a powered sharpening tool.

So: help me understand what takes 45 minutes, on powered machines that are presumably designed to be a lot faster?

You must be doing things I don't.

Perhaps you two spend time talking to your customers, to see what they want changed, whereas I only do my own skates. Does that take a lot of time?

I assume you are switching between many different types of blade, which may be warped, and of different thickness from each other. So maybe you need to de-warp, and spend time centering and level checking.

You are perhaps not always using the same ROH (though I assume you know some professional techs set aside different wheels for different ROH?). Powered machine wheels are fairly soft, so they can be easily redressed, but the downside is they need to be redressed once in a while even if you keep the same ROH. But I assume that is fairly fast - a minute or so for an experienced tech?

Do you often have to clean out gunk from the grit? Once I switched from oil to water, the equivalent operation went away. I don't need to unclog the grit, because I use water rather than oil.  Does that take a lot of time and how frequent is it?

Some of you re-polish the sides of your blades. By doing things to make the gap of my tool smooth (e.g., tape - maybe I should have used wax), I don't need to re-polish the sides of the blade. Does that take a lot of time?

Or perhaps you are talking about initial sharpening, before a hollow has been established? Even so, I though that would be fairly fast using a coarse wheel or cross grinder? That does take me some time, and I once or twice took new runners to a professional tech with a machine.

Something else?

I really thought you would all be a lot faster with powered sharpening tools.

[Kaitsu]

At least 50% of my sharpening time includes measurements. I measure blades before I even go to the sharpening machine. I do also remove bad nicks, rust and burrs already before starting the machine. When I know the blades condition, I can paint the blade with marker and dress the wheel to ROH what I want to use. Then I try to level blade based on witness marks so that I would not remove unnecessary material from the blades.

Actual grinding process goes this way…1-2 passes, measure edges evenness. Adjust skate carriage (if and when needed), 1-2 passes, measure edges evenness, adjust skate carriage (if and when needed). Dress wheel enough often to ensure that wearing wheel does not mislead you to make wrong height compensation. This is repeated until edges are even and sharp. Then I still do last two final passes to ensure best possible surface finish. In both final passes wheel is dressed. Note that I use 120 grit wheel and machine which has much lower cutting speed than large wheel machines. For this reason I need more passes than example with Wissota. Also way too sensitive height adjustments on IE skate carriage requires often some extra passes before I am happy to the edges evenness.

After power grinding next step is deburring, final visual inspection, measurements so that I know what I have done for the skates and finally I apply sticker which tells when skates has been sharpened and which radius. Final polishing with towel and skates are ready.

Process would be same even I would have 20-30 000$ machine. Only difference compared to example Wissota would be that in double or triple head machine you have integrated vacuum, bigger table and nice hood with light which protect your eyes and perhaps your lungs. Double or triple head machines makes also possible to use different wheels simultaneously so you could have example skate carriage and wheel which works better for hockey, with hockey ROH and another wheel / carriage for figure skates. Or if you are making figure skates only, you could have two or three different wheels in use all the time. In that means they can save time and money. Wheel speed adjustment you may also get if you put so much money to the machine.

Even the skates would be in very good condition, I need to use nearly same amount of time for measurements and skate leveling to my machine. Most of the skates has been anyhow used about 3 months, 4-10 hours per week. They require therefore longer time to get sharp. As a average I use about 1 hour for one pair of skates.

During the weekend I got good example case from our local sport store which uses SSM-2 machine for skates sharpening. They are those whom use 5 minutes to sharpen skates. This skater had two pairs of skates which required sharpening. Parents went to this local sport shop to ask if they are specialized also to figure skates sharpening. They said, "yes, sure we sharpen also figure skates". They sharpened both skates, but when she went to ice, she could not skate with them. Coach said that she need to sharpen skates and girl said that they are just sharpened. Parents got my contact details from coach and they called me by asking, if I can sharpen their daughter skates. In that time they called, I didn't know that they have been just sharpened on other place. If you take a look linked picture, you can probably understand why she had problems.

In this girl skates, one pair of skates had 3.4mm thick blades and another pair had 4.0mm blades. I am quite sure that both pairs were sharpened with same setup. I have seen in same sport shop how they did sharpen figure skates so that skate was not on skate holder at all. The guy was using only roller which is in front of the SSM-2 wheel as a guide and he kept the skate on his hands. After some passes he raised the skate and eyeballed the hollow. I think he thought they were well done as skates were given to the customer. Poor girl, I would say.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/94xyavsznbviz1l/5%20minutes%20sharpening.jpg?dl=0

[Query]

At least 50% of my sharpening time includes measurements.

Apparently you measure the ROH and the thickness of the blades.

With proper equipment, that could be over in 2 minutes. A few minutes more to adjust the machine accordingly, if you have optimal tools - e.g., the blade holders whose height you adjust for thickness in discrete clicks. I understand those holders cost a lot extra.

But you imply it takes about 30 minutes to do measurements.

So what else do you measure in that time? Do you recheck the rocker profile every time? Do you recheck the relationship between toe pick height and blade height every time? What else?

If a figure skater has significant nicks, they are probably doing something wrong. (Though they could get nicks if they skate outside on dirty ice.) On clean ice, there really isn't a normal way to get that, unless two blades collide, or if the skater handles the skates wrong before or after skating.

Rust also means they are not taking good care of their blades.

Maybe it makes sense to teach them how not to get those problems?

Most of the skates has been anyhow used about 3 months, 4-10 hours per week

Yes of coarse that increases time, at least for the 10 hour/week case. In such a case some skate techs start with a coarse wheel, and only finish with a fine grit wheel. And the ones who don't believe in super-sharp blades might only finish with a medium grit wheel. But no wonder you have to dress the wheel twice. If I waited that long between sharpenings, it would take me more time too - because the Pro-Filer "coarse" stone isn't very coarse. I suspect most people who sharpen their own blades with that kind of tool don't wait that long, because it is not much trouble to sharpen.

Maybe part of the reason you take more time is that you don't know what bad things have happened to the blade, because you aren't the skater. So you need to look for problems the skater could have caused.

Another case that would take extra time is if someone skates on "synthetic ice". By which I mean plastic, possibly covered with a lubricant. It is a lot harder on blades.I tried it, and felt I needed to sharpen again after 20 minutes, though a coach at the synthetic ice rink told me most people there skate for an hour before re-sharpening. They could spend a lot of money sharpening and replacing blades, though the coach said they use cheap blades for synthetic ice.

I try to give my blades a smooth finish on both the hollow and the sides, but I don't try to create a mirror finish. I wonder how much that affects skating. It would be hard to do with the tools I have.

Yes, some skate techs do a horrible job. Some of them would probably do a horrible job if they had the best machines and they took hours doing it. But as I said, some of the best techs in the world average about 5 minutes/2 blades. But they have had decades of practice, and all the best tools. Maybe if you get more practice, and get the right equipment, like the blade holder you can adjust in discrete steps, so you don't have to spend so much time centering, you will get faster.

You didn't mention de-warping the blade. Do you use the holder that straightens the blade while sharpening?

It would be nice if someone made blade holders and mechanisms that are self-centering. It sounds like you are spending a lot of your time centering. Maybe companies that make sharpening machines should be encouraged to do that. The best hand tools effectively are effectively self centering. So are some knife sharpeners. You shouldn't have to spend so much time on that.

BTW, I didn't mention that I also sometimes use a magic marker on the hollow before sharpening, so I can tell if when I have finished sharpening. It took me a long time to figure that out.

If I am not going to skate within a few minutes, I carefully dry and sometimes wipe my blades with an oiled cloth. So I get no rust - I do that after every time I skate too. That takes very little extra time, but I think it is a big deal, that everyone should learn. It also helps that my blades are stainless steel. I'm ashamed to admit it took me a long time to figure that out too. It should have been obvious.

[supersharp]

I skate with most of the skaters I sharpen for.  Most of them are kids, they all have known me their whole skating lives.  I can tell them about how to take care of their skates until I am blue in the face and it will make almost no difference...and I suspect this is pretty much a universal situation. Most nicks come from blades hitting the other blade on various moves and failed jump attempts, and that is not something that is going to change.    Adults take better care of their skates in general, because they paid for them and are more mentally equipped to pay attention.  Even with adults, though, they can be quite resistant to taking my advice about replacing hard guards that are damaging their blades and can be quite slow to replace blades that have been worn so long that the profile is flattening.  Most skaters at our rink put about 60 hours on their skates before they get resharpened, so I rarely am handed skates that are going to only need a few passes through the machine.

If I worked at a rink or a big pro shop, I would need to increase my productivity in order to make money, but that is not my situation.  I'm an engineer, I like to focus and find ways to optimize the final product, and I am willing to take some extra time to produce a really good product.  As Kaitsu said, I don't have $20K-$30K equipment in my shop, but I have a good machine that can create superb edges if you are willing to pay attention. I have been sharpening skates with this machine since 2006, so I am not slow because I have limited experience; in fact, I take longer to sharpen now than I did at first because I have learned more about how to produce edges that I am very happy to skate on myself.  It is a definite advantage to be able to experiment with changes on my own blades and test them before I try these things on someone else. 

Query--The figure skate holder for the IE compresses the blade into a straight line for sharpening. 
          http://www.iceskateology.com/Skateology/INCREDIBLE_EDGER_Fig..html         
I have received skates that have been mounted on a curve and not held flat for sharpening--the first few passes on the blade when it is compressed flat look very strange.  The pathway of the grinding wheel looks curved when you start sharpening, but it is actually the hollow itself that is curved.  When I see this, I know the blades need a mounting correction, because that degree of curvature is going to cause the skater to over-rotate one direction and fight to rotate the other direction.

Also, every time you remove and replace a grinding wheel, you are affecting the balance because it is impossible to get it perfectly recentered when you replace it.  I would much rather do 10 extra passes with a fine wheel than put a medium wheel on and then a fine wheel.  That would take far, far longer to do.  When you get a wheel balanced and mounted with low vibration--you will not want to remove that wheel until you have to. Just use it and rejoice in the beautiful finish.

I take less measurements of the blades than Kaitsu, but I take close to the same amount of time.  If I'm documenting a new technique, it could take a couple of hours since I am taking photos and writing things down.  I'm doing this for my own education, so I don't mind using the time.  I have an enormous amount of natural curiosity about things and I like to go down those little rabbit holes to see what makes things work.  Collaborating with others to see what works for them is also something I am willing to put a lot of time into, because it is so very interesting. 

Bruce Hurd, a sharpener who has "guru" status, shows sharpening an unmounted pair of blades on YouTube:https://youtu.be/69tWd_K5iBI

Bruce takes 13 minutes and he is at the top of his game.  He has no boots to mess with on this video, which I think makes the handling more nimble so the whole process takes less time.  I don't expect to be this fast, and I certainly don't expect to be faster.

I have seen many skates that have received a 3-minute sharpening and generally they are a mess.  Done by people who claim that they are so good that they can just see if the edges are level by "eyeballing it".  I am a person who has a pretty good eye, but why would I even bother to try to assess the edges with my eye to say "probably good enough" when there is this tool called a square that shows me exactly how level they are?

I have had coaches call and say "skater A had trouble in her lesson after you sharpened her skates" and I have been able to say "I am not surprised, because her skates were so off level that she actually does not know how to skate on level edges".  I'm pretty sure our rink sharpens all blades on the same holder settings, so every blade that is not the same thickness as the rental skates has unlevel edges.  I expect that it probably only takes 3-5 minutes to do so, since nothing is measured or even eyeballed.  They use a large wheel with a coarse stone and don't deburr the edges.  A few people have described it as feeling like they are skating through sand.  Pretty depressing.  I used to tell people to take rec-style blades to the rink for sharpening because it was less expensive, but when I discovered how off-level the edges were, I decided that I can no longer really make this recommendation.  It's just not fair to the skater.

I don't need sharpening to take 3 minutes.  I am not in a big hurry and I know that I am only charging money to help cover the cost of equipment. I already have a full-time engineering job and I am a skater, so I am not wasting any time, but I like to take good care of the skates.  If I see scrapes on the leather on white skates, I fill them in with some polish to protect the leather if I have time.  I remove the black marker from being student helpers if I have time.  I live in an isolated community with no skate shops, so one of my goals is to try to keep every pair of skates I handle in as good of shape as possible so they can be handed down to a new skater.  Do I get paid for taking this extra time to extend the life of skates?  No.  But I get the satisfaction of being able to get kids into new-for-them skates that are already right here in town, and I know the parents appreciate not having to buy expensive new skates when the kids are just getting started in skating.  I remember being a parent and dealing with all the expenses of kids being involved in sports that require equipment--when I was able to inherit used ski equipment for my kids when they were young, I was very grateful.  I enjoy being able to provide that same benefit to the next round of parents.

Having a ten-year-old skater run up to you and say "my blades feel amazing, thank you!"...this is what makes it feel worth the time to me.

[Query]

In the Bruce Hurd video, he spends most of his time working to get level edges.

When someone tried to teach me to use an old Blademaster machine that was true too - but he wasn't IMO competent, and the ancient blade holder was very hard to adjust. I assumed it would be much faster with better skill and equipment.

So I wonder why self-centering mechanisms aren't more common?

The old Berghmans hand tools did it well, because they could be clamped arbitrarily close to the sides of the runner, and I think it would have been easy to handle side-honed edges by adding compressible foam tape - though I've never had side-honed blades to try it with. The Pro-Filer hand tools were pretty good at it, because they touched the sides of the blade, at least if they had the right gap size - but if the upper runner had some types of side honing, I'm not sure how well they would do. It looks like the new Sparx machines do centering well too - as is appropriate for an automated machine sometimes used by people with little interest in training themselves to do it well. I don't see why other machines couldn't do something similar.

I'm not clear why Hurd had to remove chrome plating from the sides of the blade. All the chrome plated blades I have seen had a fair amount of chrome already removed, from the start. Unless he was sharpening blades past that.

It looks like the Incredible Edger is a well set-up machine in other respects. Nice that it has both cross-grind and along-blade wheels. The blade holder that straightens the skate is a big plus, and looks to be adjusted fairly easily, compared to the very poorly designed one I tried to use.

When I bought Broadbent's book, and talked and corresponded with him, he tried very hard to convince me I needed the Incredible Edger, even as a single skater. But I was trying to save money by sharpening my own blades, and it isn't all that cheap.

I have learned to avoid freestyle sessions because the kids assume I have faster reflexes than I do, and are less mindful of collisions in general, often vying for space aggressively - it was often easier to find mid-day public sessions with only several skaters on the ice, which isn't an option for everyone. So maybe my theory that there should be few nicks in figure skating blades is based on my limited experience. And you have a point that privileged kids who don't pay for their own stuff may be less motivated to take good care of it. I've seen such kids step off the ice in their blades onto dirty surfaces, and sometimes worse. To say nothing of what many people do in rental skates.

But I admit ice dancers sometimes accidentally click their blades together. Not on purpose, but I was taught the blades and torsos should come as close to each other as possible without touching. Normally such a collision only produces a small nick, though I suppose it could be larger after a lift - I wasn't advanced enough, or fit enough, for lifts. The same must be true for pairs skaters, and for Synchro, show and ice theater skaters because they are often close together too. I tried low level Synchro, with a couple of groups. I don't recall any blade collisions, but maybe they happen more often at higher levels.

And there are a few times I step on the back of my other blade.

So - I should take back my statement that figure skaters can be educated to fully avoid nicks. Perhaps that isn't always practical. I try hard to take good care of my equipment, but that isn't realistic for everyone, and I suppose some won't listen.

[supersharp]

In free dance, nicks happen here and there, laces get cut, boots get sliced, even the occasional shin gets nicked. Totally worth it.  If I get to fly across the ice upside down, I will happily deal with the equipment repair on both pairs of skates.

[Kaitsu]

Flat bottom grinding using Super Groover at Incredible Edger  => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VWuuupje7E

[supersharp]

Interesting video, Kaitsu!  I wish they had done a good closeup view of the finished flat-bottom groove. 

It seems like this type of sharpening is not very robust in terms of having the wheel alignment slightly off and making corrections, since it is removing material from inside the hollow in that V shape. 

I need to do more online reading--I remember people being very excited about this type of sharpening when it was new, but it does not seem to have taken over traditional ROH profiles as much as first expected. 

I'm curious--Has anyone seen the flat-bottom V in person or skated on it?

[Bill_S]

Not me.

[Kaitsu]

Tips how to detect worn spindle bearings from your IE?

Grinding traces are not straight lines. You will see tiny zic-zac chatter marks which are not in longitudinal direction. Like the wheel would jump up and down while you are grinding. There can be several other reasons why you have chatter marks, so this is not the most obvious sign of worn-out bearings.

You will notice that you will need very sharp diamond quill and you need to rotate it different angle quite often, other ways your diamond quill will start to vibrate and “sing”. Harder the wheel is more easily you will recognize this issue. Original white “Fine” and “Medium” wheels are too soft. Blade Master Ruby wheel is very hard. Before concluding that problem comes from the spindle bearings, ensure that you don’t have any clearances in the swing arm of the diamond quill.

Maybe the clearest sign of the worn spindle bearings is that grinded blade starts to “sing” while you grind it. This singing happens usually is same spot of the blade. In my IE it was close to back stanchion. In table top machines, like Wissota, I have seen how the “singing” happens in the middle section of the blade. At least in the hockey skates.

You may notice that you have difficulties to get sharp edges or one edge feels sharper than the other. This is a bit weird phenomena, but there was clear difference when I changed new cartridge.

You will notice that the way how you dress the wheel will affect where the wheel takes contact on blade. Its like your skate carries height adjustment would change even they dont. This you will notice if you try to get mirror finish with the final grinding pass and you can still see traces from the previous grinding pass in some areas of the blade. Typically in the tail in my machine. 

If you have missed these all before and bearings are keeping noise already while idling, this is latest moment to do something for your machine. In Incredible Edger you can buy completely new spindle cartridge or reconditioned cartridge. One option is obviously change bearing by your selves, but you will need special tools like socket wrench for the groove nut. Finding the correct socket wrench is not so easy. Before opening the cartridge, check the belt groove condition. It should look like V and not like U.

[Kaitsu]

One weakness of the IE is bearing which are used in guide rails. They have pros and cons. Main problem is that each axis has 4 contact points. Guide rails should be super parallel; other ways there is always one bearing which is not contacting. This will increase sensitivity to vibrations etc. Check also your guide rails adjustments before concluding that problems come from the spindle bearings.

[AlbaNY]

Interesting video, Kaitsu!  I wish they had done a good closeup view of the finished flat-bottom groove. 

It seems like this type of sharpening is not very robust in terms of having the wheel alignment slightly off and making corrections, since it is removing material from inside the hollow in that V shape. 

I need to do more online reading--I remember people being very excited about this type of sharpening when it was new, but it does not seem to have taken over traditional ROH profiles as much as first expected. 

I'm curious--Has anyone seen the flat-bottom V in person or skated on it?

I'm still reading through this so haven't seen if anyone has, but we have this option at the rink.  I could try it on some rentals and report back.  I'll do normal 1/2" first to get the feel for the rentals since I didn't try figure rentals yet, and then I can try the flat bottom V.

[supersharp]

Alba--it would be great if you could experiment with the flab-bottom V and report back.  I have been curious about it but not curious enough to want to invest in the Super Groover attachment. When I am testing changes, I will often make the change on one blade only, then go skate on the mismatched sharpenings so I can have a side-by-side comparison of the differences.  If there is a big difference, it's a little strange, but it keeps me from wondering if the difference I feel is because of ice quality or just how energetic or aligned I am on that particular day.   

I understand the conceptual idea, but I have a hard time believing it would make a big difference in skating for most skaters.  Particularly when we are learning something new and different, we are usually creating some kind of imbalance due to incorrect alignment, making a lot of drag along the blade that could be eliminated with better technique.  I'm guessing that FBV sharpening is not going to make me suddenly good at back outside brackets    but I am willing to remain openminded. 

[Kaitsu]

Incredible edger users have probably wondered at some point if they could find cheaper grinding wheels than the originals or Blademaster´s. I tried today Chinese wheels, which are intended for sharpening chainsaw chains. They cost $3 each, when the previously mentioned wheels cost ten times as much.

The sharpening was successful, but it does require some handyman skills. First at all, you need to find some way to reduce the size of the disc from 100mm to 75mm. Since the disc is almost as thick as the blade, you have to find also suitable height with shimming. A suitable height can be found by trial and error method. In addition, the center hole of the sanding disc is bigger than machine shafts, so it also needs to be shimmed somehow.

The disc is about as hard as Blademster's Ruby grinding disc, but rougher. However, the surface quality was better than many pro shops. This even I didn't balance the wheel. Perhaps lighter wheel weight helps on this. Probably I am not going to use these discs regularly, so this was more of an interesting experiment. If I sharpen my own hockey skates or figure skates which requires massive material removal, I might use this wheel. A slightly coarser grinding wheel works better on stainless hockey skate blades than a very fine grinding wheel.

[Kaitsu]

This week I tested two different Blademaster wheels. 3-DR (Ruby) and 3DW (White). Both were brand new. I wanted to investigate which one of them provides better surface finish or is there any difference. Conclusion was that I cannot say that there would be significant difference in the surface finish. Either of the wheels were not 100% in balance, but white wheel had clearly more unbalance. When I look measured surface finish parameters, I cannot say if the differences comes from the measuring uncertainly or are they "real" differences. One measurement from each grinding is too less amount of data to conclude that. However, measured data was quite well in line with visual inspections.

Its hard to get it on photos or videos what you see eye balls, but here is anyhow some youtube video. I hope its helpful for Incredible Edger users.
https://youtu.be/evlAJ9HtPW8?si=xry2i-4hqpegDlTd

[tstop4me]

This week I tested two different Blademaster wheels. 3-DR (Ruby) and 3DW (White). Both were brand new. I wanted to investigate which one of them provides better surface finish or is there any difference. Conclusion was that I cannot say that there would be significant difference in the surface finish. Either of the wheels were not 100% in balance, but white wheel had clearly more unbalance. When I look measured surface finish parameters, I cannot say if the differences comes from the measuring uncertainly or are they "real" differences. One measurement from each grinding is too less amount of data to conclude that. However, measured data was quite well in line with visual inspections.

Its hard to get it on photos or videos what you see eye balls, but here is anyhow some youtube video. I hope its helpful for Incredible Edger users.
https://youtu.be/evlAJ9HtPW8?si=xry2i-4hqpegDlTd

How does the surface finish produced with the wheels supplied directly from Incredible Edger compare with that produced with the Blademaster wheels?

[Query]

Blademaster doesn't give much info on wheels!

They say

ruby: 120 grit; Ruby abrasive; Cool cutting; Less tendancy to burn the blade

white:     120 grit;  38a abrasive; general purpose wheel for figure blades

But an 8" ruby wheel is

Well suited to both carbon and stainless steel blades.

https://centreline.co.nz/technical-information-and-downloads/grinding-wheel-information/grinding-wheel-markings-explained.html says

38A White aluminum oxide, hard and brittle. Suitable for all kinds of steel grinding...

RA Ruby aluminum oxide, hand and less brittle than PA. Suitable for high alloy steel etc, in precision grinding.

https://www.nortonabrasives.com/sga-common/files/document/Norton_Industrial_technical_data_health_safety_1.pdf says

38A White fused aluminium oxide (99,8% pure). The most friable & cool cutting of the aluminium oxides.
This abrasive is supplied in all types of standard range wheels ideal for use on hard & heat sensitive steels
& alloys. It has traditionally been used for sharpening high-speed steel & cast alloy tools & cutters.
38A is used for cylindrical, surface & internal grinding of tools, dies & gauges.

[ruby] 86A Pink aluminium oxide is a highly refined form of alumina containing a small proportion of chromium oxide.
This addition makes 86A a little tougher than pure white, increasing the strength along the shear planes.
This abrasive is available in a range of mounted points & wheels

Do I understand correctly, that pink is tougher, so can be used at higher speeds or greater pressure, but should in theory create a less smooth surface? Or is that too simple?

What is your take on which should be better?

The Blademaster polishing wheel

  https://blademaster.com/web/en/2585-finishing-wheels-3-inch

Polishing wheel; Gives a high sheen to the hollow of the blade without disturbing the skate edges

can perhaps be used to create a smoother finish after sharpening...

I honestly don't understand how it can polish the hollow without dulling the edges. Maybe it is a little like deburring??

Perhaps Blademaster assumes prior machine shop knowledge and experience? Are you able to figure out what wheel is supposed to be used for what, under what conditions?

[Query]

https://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/32590/Small-Radius-Balanced-Wheels-for-Skate-Sharpening says

In my experience improper storage has led to wheels becoming unbalanced due to exposure to humidity, water, oils or orientation.

Is is plausible that such minor things could significantly unbalance a wheel or is worrying about that overkill?

I assume most people just leave their wheels mounted on the machine, and don't worry about such things.


BTW, how much money / sharpening do you spend on grinding wheels? Is it significant, compared to your time and the blade lifetime loss? Based on http://www.newenglandhockeybags.com/blademaster_pricelist.pdf ($12.22 - $15 / wheel) I wouldn't have thought so, though maybe shipping costs are significant where you are.

[Kaitsu]

How does the surface finish produced with the wheels supplied directly from Incredible Edger compare with that produced with the Blademaster wheels?

Surface finish of ICE FINE is comparable to the 3DW. Both are manufactured in Mexico and I cannot see any differences in their grits (just by eye). I would not be surprised if they would come from same manufacturer and would have identical "receipt". Thickness and labeling is different. To  compensate this thickness difference you need to use cardboard "shims/washers" which comes together with Blademaster wheels to lift it a bit higher in your machine. Alternatively you need to adjust Incredible Edger spindle cartridge. Other-ways the radius come unevenly to the wheel. It might be just visual issue, but I want blade contact be evenly in the middle of wheel.

If skates are in really bad condition I might use ICE MEDIUM or even ICE FINE. They remove material a bit faster than Ruby wheels. Or at least there is more sparks compared too the Ruby wheel. ICE MEDIUM definitely removes material faster as it is more coarse.
 
There are two reason why I use Blademaster wheels:

Blademaster wheels are sold in EU. IE Wheels I need to order from US. Delivery times of original wheels are much longer and I need to do customs duties when they are imported. In price wise there is not so much difference between these to brands. In both manufacturers wheels you can almost double the US prices when they are imported to the EU.

I feel that I can get slightly better surface finish with Ruby wheel than any other wheel. Its also more harder than any other wheel I have tried, so it holds its shape better than softer wheels.
There are several things which will also affect to the surface finish. To me it took several years to learn what I need to do to improve the surface finish in the level where I am now. In the first time when I tried Ruby wheels, I hated them. They do have much higher unbalance than original IE wheels, even Blademaster promotes them to be weight balanced. 6pc of wheels were several years in my stock before I tried them again. Since that I have mainly used Ruby wheels.

[Kaitsu]

Do I understand correctly, that pink is tougher, so can be used at higher speeds or greater pressure, but should in theory create a less smooth surface?

Yes and no. Ruby wheel is much harder/tougher than any other wheel I have tried. This means that is hold better the radius you have dressed to the wheel, but you might need to dress is more often because it wont wear => no new sharp grits unless you dress the wheel with diamond. As long as you cannot change speed of your sharpener, it does not matter if pink wheel would withstand higher rotation speeds.

The Blademaster polishing wheel https://blademaster.com/web/en/2585-finishing-wheels-3-inch
I honestly don't understand how it can polish the hollow without dulling the edges.

I don't understand either. This is what Blademaster replied to me year ago...
How do you get the same radius on the 3BW as the radius on the blade? The purpose of the BW is for buffing only it is not changing or affecting the radius
3BW buffing wheel seems to be quite hard/tough and I think it can be dressed to certain radius. I have never tried them as they should be ordered 6pc sets or from US. I know Supersharp has one of these wheels.

All wheels  does have less or more unbalance even they are new See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqh8rVBGG8A
Balance changes when wheel is getting smaller (looses mass), so re-balancing is needed from time to time.

[Query]

But could humidity actually affect balance significantly? E.g., if someone leaves it on their machine, or take it off and store it carelessly, and humidity varies, is that really a possible issue?

I notice that www.iceskateology.com, Broadbent's website, does not list sharpening wheels for sale. Maybe he doesn't sell them any more? If so, maybe he would advise you on alternate wheel suppliers.


I love the things you try to improve the results. That's exactly what your customers should want, and I wish more skate techs did the same, and that their managements allowed them to spend enough time/skate to do a good job.

But saving costs on wheels, and trying the cheap chain saw sharpening wheels? https://wissota.com/support/instructions/frequently-asked-questions estimates 200 pairs of skates / wheel. If you pay about $15/wheel (14.17 Euro), that's only $0.075 / sharpening (about .071 Euro). If one brand does a better job of balancing their wheels than another, or they are more durable, or they are easier to mount on your machine, it would seem like the time savings of using that brand would be well worth it. Am I missing something?

Perhaps you only looked for cheap suppliers because you have an engineering background - and engineers are trained to optimize everything, so you simply can't resist. Or are you looking because Broadbent did stop supplying wheels?

[Kaitsu]

But could humidity actually affect balance significantly? E.g., if someone leaves it on their machine, or take it off and store it carelessly, and humidity varies, is that really a possible issue?

Sure, if we go to the atom level. What I have noted in practice, is that "gas fumes" causes vibrations to my hands and hallucinations when I sharpen very stinky skates. Its hard to see clearly what you are doing under the all tears. 

I notice that www.iceskateology.com, Broadbent's website, does not list sharpening wheels for sale. Maybe he doesn't sell them any more? If so, maybe he would advise you on alternate wheel suppliers.

You was sharing in other thread instructions how to use Google search tool. Thanks for valuable lesson. However sometimes all information are not found with the Google. I propose you try to check following web page: http://www.iceskateology.com/Skateology/Price_List.html 

I am not sure if the problem is my English skills, but I have tried to explain already couple times that Blademaster 3" wheels are alternatives to the original Incredible Edger wheels. Or was your proposal to ask from Sid Broadbent, if he would advice some third supplier which would compete against his own business?

[Kaitsu]

But saving costs on wheels, and trying the cheap chain saw sharpening wheels? https://wissota.com/support/instructions/frequently-asked-questions estimates 200 pairs of skates / wheel. If you pay about $15/wheel (14.17 Euro), that's only $0.075 / sharpening (about .071 Euro).

You was calculating wheel cost per one sharpening, but you did miss few things in your calculation
* Most likely 99% of the skate techs need to order "genuine" wheels. They are not sold in local tool shops like chainsaw sharpening wheels. If you order genuine wheel(s) over the seas, it increases the costs even more. Shipping costs should be included in the wheel calculation.
* Wissota´s wheels costs 36$ in US, not 15$. https://wissota.com/product-category/replacement-parts/
* Your calculation was based on to the Wissota´s 7" (177mm) wheel and Wissota estimation how many skate pairs you can sharpen with one wheel. However this thread is focusing to the Incredible Edger which uses 3" (75mm) wheel.

However if we use some math, you will start to see also some other things what you are missing:
* As said, new Wissota wheel is 177mm when it is new. When it is worn-out, its diameter is ~130mm. Incredible Edger wheel is 75mm when it is new and ~50mm when it is worn-out. If we transfer these diameter reductions to the volume (mm³), you will see that Incredible Edger wheels has 4.5 times less material what can be use for sharpening. Means that IE wheel costs per skate pair is higher than Wissota´s.
* Wissota´s bigger wheel diameter means also that its circumferential length is much longer than in IE wheels. Even the machines different spinning speeds are taking in account, bigger wheel removes material ~30% faster than smaller wheel. In theory you need less sharpening passes to remove same amount of material. Ones again IE sharpening is more expensive.
* Chinese chainsaw sharpening wheel costs 5€/pc, including shipping costs. Blademaster 3" wheel costs ~25€/pc + ~15€ shipping costs