skatingforums
On the Ice => Sitting on the Boards Rink Side => Topic started by: severina on December 09, 2012, 03:19:50 PM
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I'm just venting, but I want to hear other adults input where you guys skate to see if it's the same or if they're more lax with adults... I skated as a child and tested up to Junior .... I still have good figures and I can land almost all my doubles except for 2lutz and 2axel which I will be starting to work on after my overuse injury to my landing leg (almost stress fractured the femur bone).. I'm 35 and I decided to do moves in the field for the fun of it. Adults here seem to be getting tested just as strictly as the kids. I'm going to be taking my Silver moves a third time in January. They're SO strict here and the moves that I seem to be getting marked on are the dance ones (cross strokes). I feel they are fine and have looked and looked through youtube and I think I'm doing just fine, but the judges here are crazy.
I've seen adults here on their 8th and 9th silver / gold moves tries. That's ridiculous because the ones I've seen should have honestly passed their tests. We're doing this as a hobby now and not to become olympic champions.
How are adults doing in other parts of the country? Are there any from Utah here that can comment on the brutalness of the judging here when it comes to judging the adults pretty much the same as the kids?
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I have to ask the question, but what do the judges' comments say? Maybe focus on whatever those comments are.
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I don't think the judges are lax on moves tests here. Especially as you get higher up the test ladder.
I had a friend take intermediate a number of times, and she even brought in specialty coaches who were baffled why she again didn't pass. She got it eventually.
How about a testing vacation? Give it a try somewhere else?
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Since you are blessed with a ton of judges in your area, I would ask one of them for a critique or feedback. They really do want to pass you and will help if you ask.
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Since you are blessed with a ton of judges in your area, I would ask one of them for a critique or feedback. They really do want to pass you and will help if you ask.
I agree with this, and particularly since you specifically mention one move (the cross strokes) that should be one of the easier moves on the test as what is holding you back perhaps there is something about how you are doing them that just won't pass even if you feel you are doing the move adequately... maybe it's in the knee bend, or the pushes on the strokes, or in some other aspect and it may be something relatively simple to change. If you are not working with a coach, you definitely should be - there are so many things my coach has pointed out to me over the past 2 years that I would have remained blissfully unaware of, and I'm happy to have been able to make the changes I needed to make in my skating.
Personally I don't want to be judged as an adult and pass a test that shouldn't otherwise be passed - it's part of why I chose not to try during our last test session. I might have squeaked by with my silver moves if I skated exceptionally well, but I didn't want to pass that way - I want my moves to be at a place where I can have an iffy skate and still pass without problems.
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I have to ask the question, but what do the judges' comments say? Maybe focus on whatever those comments are.
See, that's the thing... the moves that I failed on were the cross strokes from one judge and they said "backwards cross strokes were all stepped" but I know for a fact they weren't because the other 2 judges said "back cross strokes were good" that was a 2.6, the rest of my marks that judge gave me were 2.7 so that basically made it so i didn't get to 16.2 ... then, the other move was the 8 step. 2 judges said I had great rhythm and cadence and the one that gave me the deduction said it that steps 5678 on the right side weren't marched enough. That judge also gave me 2.7 even though the one judge that did pass me gave me 2.8s on 2 elements.
I look at youtube and see passing moves tests on there that wouldn't have had a chance in hell here.
There is one adult skater I know that ended up going to another state to take his moves tests and he's passed everything and now is working on novice moves. He failed silver and gold multiple times and ended up passing them on the first try outside of here.
I've now had 2 judges see my moves (one is from out of state) and I was told that they were good and would pass.
I'm going to have another take a look and take a video and see what could be possibly going wrong, because I'm really at a loss.
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How about a testing vacation? Give it a try somewhere else?
I might have to try that. I'm also considering bringing in our resident dance coach to see what they expect on the moves that were taken from the dance side of things.
By the way thanks to all that replied! I'm going to see if I can get a hold of some of the judges and see if I can get a one on one with the stricter ones and have her point out exactly where the issue is.
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are you provo or slc/ ogden
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are you provo or slc/ ogden
SLC... I was going to test at Provo (and recently I heard people were passing more than usual at that session, hehe), but I had just changed from Harlick to Edea boots so I could take some weight off and didn't feel comfortable testing 3 weeks after I changed my boots. In hindsight I wish I would have tested that session, heh.
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Seems like you've got two choices: either test somewhere else or fix the moves so that you give the judges what they're looking for.
It also seems to me that if a lot of skaters are having trouble passing the same tests, then the fault lies with the coaches, not the judges, especially if it's not always the same three judges doing all the tests.
As for judges giving adults a break: well, there's a lower passing average for adults and masters, if you specify that you're taking the alternate form. That is the "break" written into they system.
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there's a lower passing average for adults
That's not true until Intermediate.
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I misread the original poster and believed she was talking about Junior Moves, since she said she'd tested up to Junior as a child. I didn't realize that she'd started over with the Adult tests. But the Silver Adult Test has a lower passing stand than the Pre-Juv/Juv standard moves so the "break" is still there.
The point I was trying to make is that the judges don't change their stanard of proficiency according to the age of the tester; it's the marking standard that is adjusted to allow for lower skill level in older skaters.
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But the Silver Adult Test has a lower passing stand than the Pre-Juv/Juv standard moves so the "break" is still there.
Yes, and no. At least in theory.
8 step and cross strokes are on the standard Juv. test (2.9?) but need a 2.7 to pass Silver. A bit of a break there (in theory).
3's in the field and power pulls are at the same score as the kids (2.7). No break there. Spirals are a standard Prelim move (2.5), Silver needs a 2.7. Higher standard, again in theory.
The problem I have run into in my area is the numbers really don't appear to matter to the judges. There really isn't anything out there saying "this is what a 2.7 cross stroke should look like versus a 2.9 cross stroke" for example, and since the main point of reference they have is the kids, they pretty much expect the cross strokes to all look like what the kids do...if it looks "right" and it's an adult test, it gets a 2.7, if it looks "right" and it's a standard test, it gets a 2.9. After several tries (and "invitations to retry") of the Silver MITF I've pretty much given up on the adult MITF track. If I'm going to get judged on the kids' standard anyway I might as well work on those tests. At least there's some sense of consistency that has developed over the years from watching numerous tests...there just aren't that many people testing beyond Bronze here anymore that there's any real sense of what a passing Silver moves test "should" look like.
All of the above, JMO, based on my experiences in testing these.
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The problem I have run into in my area is the numbers really don't appear to matter to the judges. There really isn't anything out there saying "this is what a 2.7 cross stroke should look like versus a 2.9 cross stroke" for example, and since the main point of reference they have is the kids, they pretty much expect the cross strokes to all look like what the kids do...if it looks "right" and it's an adult test, it gets a 2.7, if it looks "right" and it's a standard test, it gets a 2.9. After several tries (and "invitations to retry") of the Silver MITF I've pretty much given up on the adult MITF track. If I'm going to get judged on the kids' standard anyway I might as well work on those tests. At least there's some sense of consistency that has developed over the years from watching numerous tests...there just aren't that many people testing beyond Bronze here anymore that there's any real sense of what a passing Silver moves test "should" look like.
All of the above, JMO, based on my experiences in testing these.
I have not tested Silver Moves (working on it), but my experience talking with other skaters - many whom have taken Silver Moves 4,5, or more times before passing is the same. I also was a test chair for about 5 years so have seen many test scores including Adult Silver Moves. If it looks "right" i.e. similar standard to the kids, it will get whatever the passing mark is. If it doesn't, it will be scored below the passing mark. There really is no break for adults. At least in my area, anyway.
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I am currently on an invitation to take my Senior moves for the 5th time. 3 of the previous 4 times I took the moves, have been clean, good run thrus that didn't necessarily require a retry (1 of those times, I screwed up twice). But there was something that the judges wanted that wasn't there. This past time Coach2 asked one of the judges for some additional feedback (they are friends) and the judge 1) said that they wanted more presentation and 2) had no clue that I am 32...she thought that I was early/mid-20s... At least I know that it's not because I am an adult that I keep failing. It has been super frustrating to see the "kids" pass this test with no problems when some of them truly do not have the refined presentation that the judges are looking for. I have been working on them for over 2 years now and am determined to pass them on the standard track. I have passed every other test at that standard, but that just means I need to work 3x's as hard as the kids to get it. And when I do get it, I will truly understand the moves and what it takes, while the kids who have flown through their moves, will be a little lost on how to teach them. My major hurtles are the LFI 2.5 twizzle in the serpentine and the Back Outside Double 3 power pulls to a rocker/rocker (I got a concussion doing these in August).
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If it looks "right" i.e. similar standard to the kids, it will get whatever the passing mark is. If it doesn't, it will be scored below the passing mark. There really is no break for adults. At least in my area, anyway.
Must be difficult to transform test results to decimal points.
I am wondering if judges expect the same level of power and ice coverage from a very tiny young kid and a teenager, everything else being equal. If the answer is no, what about a very tiny young kid vs. an adult...
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No they don't have the same expectation of power and flow
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No they don't have the same expectation of power and flow
They do seem to have that expectation here, but maybe they think I'm younger than I really am.. I don't think a lot of them realize that I'm 35. One the coaches at my rink was talking to me today and out of the blue I mentioned that I'm 35 and she about flipped out. I do look like I'm in my 20s so maybe there's that.
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Some people may have misread my post. I did test up to Junior as a kid / teenager... but there was no such thing as moves in the field. I did figures and freestyle. I'm doing moves from the beginning solely because I never got to and I thought it would be a fun challenge.
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I wonder what would happen if you started at the beginning of the Standard Tests instead of the Adult Track?
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All I can say is that, having been test chair of my club for almost 20 years and having trial judged for several years as well (before my eyesight failed and I quit because I can't see clearly across the rink), my experience has been that the judges have developed clear visions of the elements "should" look like for each level. Individual judges may have slightly different components of those elements that they focus on. I know one judge who has a distaste for spins that travel because she thinks it indicates a lack of technique and another who looks for held landings on all jumps. I found that out by - gasp! - talking to them in general terms after test sessions I ran.
I've never heard one say that the age of the skater makes a difference to them.
So unless you're facing the same three judges every time you test and fail, then I'd tend to think that the fault lies with the test you're putting out there, rather than with all the judges in your area being too harsh with adults. But the only way you can know more is to talk to the judges and ask directly what you need to improve.
The only other factor I'd consider is how many adult tests the judges in your area actually see during a given year. If they're only seeing a handful a year, they might not be able to form their mental image of what a Silver test "should" look like and fall back on the standards they already have. In that case, going to an area where judges see a lot of adult tests might be beneficial.
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I had 2 of the same judges both times... the 2 that gave me the retry. They both failed me by .1 each. I hear they never give bonus marks so basically gave me 2.7 and then one gave me a 2.6 on my mowhawk and one gave me 2.6 on my cross strokes. the other judge that was the 3rd one that passed me was different Each time... gave me bonus points on the cross strokes and another element too . Same with the first one. Boggle.
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I think there may be different judges at the next test session.. I am going to record my moves sometime this week or next and post up for critique in the videos area...
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Are you working with a coach who regularly takes skaters thru moves tests? :)
Video is a great idea.
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I hear they never give bonus marks
This is an issue I have. My coach has basically told me I won't be able to pass Silver moves because I can't expect to make up the difference of a bad move with my good moves (I have a labral tear in my hip- I'm not getting surgery just so I can do spirals. That is pretty much the only thing in my life the tear affects).
He took his pre-bronze dances tests and was marked -just- over the passing average. He has his senior tests in 3 other disciplines. Since he thinks I am skating at passing standard for the pre-bronze test I know, I can guarantee he is full points above me, not a tenth or two. But the judges basically see "oh, that's passing" and write down whatever the passing score is. If it is phenomenal, they'll give it a tenth. But there is no "oh that was very good" to get bonus points. As far as I'm concerned, by the way they are judged, all the tests are pass/retry. Though I have heard that some people get to pass with one move marked down and the strength of another move, but it seems to be rare.
But seriously, I don't think it is just your area.
I found that out by - gasp! - talking to them in general terms after test sessions I ran.
But you could only do that because you were test chair. Skaters are discouraged from talking directly to judges at test sessions (because they would be mobbed). We don't have local judges so we can't ask for feedback on non-test days.
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But you could only do that because you were test chair. Skaters are discouraged from talking directly to judges at test sessions (because they would be mobbed). We don't have local judges so we can't ask for feedback on non-test days.
That is really too bad. For our tests, the judges join the skaters for breakfast and they give comments to the skaters. They ALWAYS get a lecture about pushing with toe picks and how much they hate that sound. It's a lot of fun and informative. Our test people are from out of town (that is why everyone brings food for breakfast). It makes the judges feel reachable and less scary to the kids.
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That is really too bad. For our tests, the judges join the skaters for breakfast and they give comments to the skaters. They ALWAYS get a lecture about pushing with toe picks and how much they hate that sound. It's a lot of fun and informative. Our test people are from out of town (that is why everyone brings food for breakfast). It makes the judges feel reachable and less scary to the kids.
But, your situation sounds very, very, very rare. I have not heard of that happening anywhere in the areas around me. Granted, we have all local judges. Generally, only if a critique is set up in advance can you speak to the judges beyond the marks and comments you receive. Some are more open to coaches requesting clarification, but certainly you do not simply get to talk to the judges for the most part.
However, by testing in front of the same judges over and over, you do get to learn what they prefer and what type of skating they prefer to see. There are certain judges that want to see certain things - these don't always line up. So you very well may have one judge who focuses on not stepping cross strokes, but another who focuses on if three turns are placed exactly on the top of the lobe. The problem can occur when you get these two judges on the same panel, they may each not pass you on different moves, meaning that you don't pass that day. So even if you know what they want to see, but each wants different things, it can be difficult.
This is seen throughout the country though. I don't know that one area is worse than others, I think it just depends on the day and the judges. I too have seen youtube videos of tests that I don't think should have ever been passed. But it makes me a better skater knowing my judges are tougher and passing really means something.
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Things must be really strange in Utah. :)
All you have to do to speak to a judge is ask. Go or send your coach to the test chair and politely request to speak to the judges on your panel. The test chair will go to those judges and ask them to come out and speak with you - and your coach. Very few of them will refuse - educating skaters is part of their job. You'll probably have to wait until the end of the test schedule but it could be worth it to have a one-on-one discussion about how you can improve. If the test chair refuses to hear your request or if no one agrees to talk to you afterward, then I'll allow you grounds for complaint.
I don't get to talk to all these judges because I'm test chair. I'm test chair because when I was skating and testing myself, I took the time to get to know the judges who came to our local competitions and tests. I also went to seminars and schools and presentations to learn as much about the sport as I could. Do I like every judge I know? Of course not, but I do respect their collective knowledge and committement. The vast majority of judges are very nice people who judge because they love the sport - why else would they volunteer to spend hours of their free time in cold rinks? There's no glory in judging test sessions. It really bothers me to see all judges lumped together into some giant amorphous multi-headed creature with only one brain. All judges are not the same any more than all kid skaters are the same or all Adult skaters are the same.
One word of warning, though, should you decide to go elsewhere to test - word gets around among test chairs about skaters who go shopping for "easier" panels and it's not a positive reputation to have.
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I agree you don't need to be a test chair to talk to the judges. My skaters have tested with at least one judge she had, I don't know who she had that failed her. I know the judges in that area, just because if your skaters test or compete in a region long enough you see them a lot.. I feel confortable in asking them after a test session or emailing them. They don't bite lol
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This is an issue I have. My coach has basically told me I won't be able to pass Silver moves because I can't expect to make up the difference of a bad move with my good moves (I have a labral tear in my hip- I'm not getting surgery just so I can do spirals. That is pretty much the only thing in my life the tear affects).
Yeah i'm dealing with a stress reaction in my femoral neck on my landing leg from too many doubles without my muscles being strong enough to do them. The moment i started landing them, like an idiot, i didn't take my time and I decided i wanted to do 30 in one session, lol. Thankfully I can still do moves and spins but I can't jump for a month and a half now. All i have now is 100% practice time for my moves, hehehe...
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Regarding arranging critiques with judges: Instead of asking the critique on the testing day when the test chair is likely burnt out, maybe try emailing the test chair beforehand, allowing more room to make arrangements. When I tested this summer, my judges knew in advance that I requested critique - they graciously agreed to it and took additional notes on the testing form. It was quite constructive ;)
Skaters are discouraged from talking directly to judges at test sessions (because they would be mobbed). We don't have local judges so we can't ask for feedback on non-test days.
Is it because the tests are so rare and the judges are "maxed out", not leaving them much time to stay afterwards?
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Is it because the tests are so rare and the judges are "maxed out", not leaving them much time to stay afterwards?
We only do tests in conjunction with competitions, since we need to bring all the judges in from out of town. They often need a bit of a break between the end of the test session and the beginning of the competition. We make arrangements for skaters to request critiques of their free skates, but don't generally do the same for tests.
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Severina, I think your idea to work with a dance coach is a good one, especially since you're getting comments about the cross strokes. In my region at least, moves judges tend to want those done the way a dancer would do them--and they're very picky about it. If you're stepping them, especially the back ones, they would most certainly fail here.
I'd love to see a video & will be happy to give you any input I can. :)
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I find that cross strokes are definitely one of the things judges are particular on. My coach works cross strokes with me nearly every lesson (and lesson time is hard to come by, so I know it's important!). She tells me I'm too kicky and swing-y, and she's right. I warm up with them every session, but I still have a long way to go.
I like that my coach has had a lot of students go through their moves, and so she knows in general what the judges like to see. We are lucky that the local judges here are nice and very willing to talk to coaches about things students can improve on.
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I have not tested Silver Moves (working on it), but my experience talking with other skaters - many whom have taken Silver Moves 4,5, or more times before passing is the same. I also was a test chair for about 5 years so have seen many test scores including Adult Silver Moves. If it looks "right" i.e. similar standard to the kids, it will get whatever the passing mark is. If it doesn't, it will be scored below the passing mark. There really is no break for adults. At least in my area, anyway.
That is what I have seen in my area, too. I have noticed that any 'break' given to adults is on power and quickness (like on the 8-step mohawk), but for the most part, they have an idea of what passing looks like and that's what they expect. The judges who are known to be a bit more lenient are consistent no matter the age of the tester. Judges who are tougher are equally tougher. I spoke with a local judge about how they equated standard and adult track expectations, specifically on the Gold Moves (what I'm working on), and was told that they expected the same level of skating on the power circles and forward double 3's as they would for a kid testing Juv, since the passing standard is the same. Which is not what the rulebook says, at least about power - about 7 years ago, "power" was changed to "continuous flow and strength" on the adult moves where power was a focus.
For the most part, I have found that judges understand the physical challenges adult skaters face. And most are willing to give a 'break' in accordance with the rules. But I think most have a specific idea in their head about what a move should look like and there isn't a lot of leeway. And particularly at the higher adult levels - Silver and Gold - the judges just don't see a lot of those tests, so they don't have much of a reference point.
ETA: I took Silver MIF 4 times. The first 2 times I deserved a retry - first time the test was iffy and 2nd time I just didn't skate well - and the 3rd time, one judge passed me and my coach thought I deserved to pass. The 4th time, I actually skated worse than the 3rd but 2 judges passed me - it was just an easier panel. I expect to have to take Gold MIF at least 3 times.
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The only other factor I'd consider is how many adult tests the judges in your area actually see during a given year. If they're only seeing a handful a year, they might not be able to form their mental image of what a Silver test "should" look like and fall back on the standards they already have. In that case, going to an area where judges see a lot of adult tests might be beneficial.
Agreed, and I feel for those adult skaters in areas without a lot of adult skaters! I am very fortunate to have taken all of my adult MIF tests in Southern California, where there are plenty of adult skaters and judges are used to the standards. I was even asked to help demonstrate adult MIF at a judges' seminar once, along with several other adults. I appreciated that they were trying to give local judges an idea of what is and isn't passing for adults, and how adults might have different problems on the moves than the kids. I know the judges here use different standards for the adult track and standard track because I passed the Gold MIF on the first try but it took me 5 or 6 tries to pass Intermediate MIF, which was only one move different at the time!
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I'm an adult skate in Utah (Salt Lake Figure Skating club) and tested for the first time in August Pre-Bronze MITF and FS. I passed both but had to do my one footed spin over because I didn't get enough rotations the first time.
A woman that skates at Steiner (home rink) just passed her Silver Moves a week or so ago at the Cottonwood Heights testing sessions. One coach said she might not be ready for Silver Moves, the other said she was. Like I said, she passed.
Take the above FWIW. That's the extent of what I know about testing in Utah. :-)
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I passed my silver moves today. All 3 judges gave me passing scores. No more back pain induced by spirals til intermediate. Woohoo!
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I passed my silver moves today. All 3 judges gave me passing scores. No more back pain induced by spirals til intermediate. Woohoo!
YAY! I'm so glad you passed :) JMO but I think as long as you can generate the speed required for the intermediate spirals that pattern is so much easier to do.
I'm at the point with my silver moves where the only iffy thing is the 3 turns, and that varies from day to day. Some days they are perfectly fine, I go through them with no trouble at all, then the very next session it's almost like I have a mental block and it's hopeless. My coach wants me to try testing them in just over a month and I am terrified... I am going to sign up to do it, but I do not expect to pass mostly because the test session is in an arena I've skated at only once, and I know the ice feels so different from what I am used to. If I pass on the first try it will be a miracle.
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I passed my silver moves today. All 3 judges gave me passing scores. No more back pain induced by spirals til intermediate. Woohoo!
Congratulations!! How did the test go? Did you get different judges?
Would totally LOVE to see a video too if you don't mind sharing :D
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Didn't get a video of it. :( I had 3 different judges and all 3 passed me. I got bonus marks on my cross strokes and 8 step.
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I passed my silver moves today. All 3 judges gave me passing scores. No more back pain induced by spirals til intermediate. Woohoo!
Woohoo indeed! Congrats!
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I passed my silver moves today. All 3 judges gave me passing scores. No more back pain induced by spirals til intermediate. Woohoo!
Congrats!
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I'm just venting, but I want to hear other adults input where you guys skate to see if it's the same or if they're more lax with adults... I skated as a child and tested up to Junior .... I still have good figures and I can land almost all my doubles except for 2lutz and 2axel which I will be starting to work on after my overuse injury to my landing leg (almost stress fractured the femur bone).. I'm 35 and I decided to do moves in the field for the fun of it. Adults here seem to be getting tested just as strictly as the kids. I'm going to be taking my Silver moves a third time in January. They're SO strict here and the moves that I seem to be getting marked on are the dance ones (cross strokes). I feel they are fine and have looked and looked through youtube and I think I'm doing just fine, but the judges here are crazy.
I've seen adults here on their 8th and 9th silver / gold moves tries. That's ridiculous because the ones I've seen should have honestly passed their tests. We're doing this as a hobby now and not to become olympic champions.
How are adults doing in other parts of the country? Are there any from Utah here that can comment on the brutalness of the judging here when it comes to judging the adults pretty much the same as the kids?
Where in Utah are you? I am in UT as well.
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Since you are blessed with a ton of judges in your area, I would ask one of them for a critique or feedback. They really do want to pass you and will help if you ask.
I also agree. Living in the area, many of the judges are more then willing to offer a critique. Ask your coach and your club test chair about setting one up.
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I had 2 of the same judges both times... the 2 that gave me the retry. They both failed me by .1 each. I hear they never give bonus marks so basically gave me 2.7 and then one gave me a 2.6 on my mowhawk and one gave me 2.6 on my cross strokes. the other judge that was the 3rd one that passed me was different Each time... gave me bonus points on the cross strokes and another element too . Same with the first one. Boggle.
I realize this is old but honestly, they are just as hard on the kids. Took my daughter 3 times to pass her pre juv moves. And even with her pass, one judge was still incredibly hard on her. We are in UT too.
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I passed my silver moves today. All 3 judges gave me passing scores. No more back pain induced by spirals til intermediate. Woohoo!
Congratulations!! That is fabulous. Are you competing at all? I like to watch the adults skate! We will be in PC for Winter Games in 2 weeks.
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I am of the belief that adult skaters should not get a break if they are on the regular track. That said, maybe go to a test session elsewhere.