John Wilson Phoenix Blades (2020)

[FigureSpins]

John Wilson has a new blade called the Phoenix.   Looks like a carbon-fiber chassis with a stainless steel blade.

You spoke, and we listened. Designed with parallel side datum flats for ease of maintenance. No unique jig required.
'Phoenix' by John Wilson Blades. The lightest blade ever made.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CE1oH1uHgxu/?igshid=zxdpg5i268al

[Bill_S]

Interesting.

I wonder what rocker profile they will use? Will they copy an existing blade, or create a new one? I'm sure that these questions will be answered shortly.

[Query]

It has stainless steel blades. About time that JW understood some of us like stainless.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LCIKcnkQjM&feature=youtu.be

It looks like it is (partly?) held together by rivets?

They advertise it as easy to maintain (parallel sides, no special jig), but as people here have pointed out, stainless blades can't be sharpened by some sharpening wheels.

Interesting that JW puts ads on Instagram and Youtube before they list it on their own website.

[tstop4me]

Well, I'm glad to see Wilson consider ease of sharpening as an explicit design factor.  I'm also glad that they finally see the merits of stainless steel for blades.  But I'm really hoping they will have some options in stainless steel with the traditional construction (blade body with stanchions brazed to mounting plates), rather than the chassis plus attached runner construction.

[FigureSpins]

Interesting.

I wonder what rocker profile they will use? Will they copy an existing blade, or create a new one? I'm sure that these questions will be answered shortly.

They said (in an IG comment) that the blade was rated for triples/quads.  The image shows the words "Phoenix Gold" on the chassis, so maybe they'll offer Gold Seal.
Based on the image/video, I'm thinking that "hybrid" template they created a few years ago - a Pattern 99 blade w/ a Gold Seal rocker. 

[Christy]

John Wilson has a new blade called the Phoenix.   Looks like a carbon-fiber chassis with a stainless steel blade.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CE1oH1uHgxu/?igshid=zxdpg5i268al

Sorry to say it but I would never buy that blade as it looks so ugly. Hopefully it's better in "real life"

[Query]

I'm really hoping they will have some options in stainless steel with the traditional construction (blade body with stanchions brazed to mounting plates), rather than the chassis plus attached runner construction.

Why? Is the former mechanically superior? Or do you prefer the look?

As you know, Jackson Ultima's highest end (Matrix) blades, as well as (AFAIK) all Paramount blades use the latter construction technique.

BTW, I have no reason to believe Phoenix blades are solely held together by rivets. It may be they are held together partly by chemical bonds - e.g., by an adhesive.

I assume 9999 New Zealand dollars for Coronation Phoenix blades isn't the real price.

No one would pay that much to take off a few ounces - would they? 

[Christy]

Looking at these blades again I'm wondering if they are going to need the same sort of specialist jig that Jackson Matrix blades require?

[MCsAngel2]

Looking at these blades again I'm wondering if they are going to need the same sort of specialist jig that Jackson Matrix blades require?

From Reddit, I think the user was quoting from YouTube:

17 days ago
Ditto Ultima. Hope skaters who buy it know to make sure their sharpeners have the right equipment for it.


16 days ago
here's what I read from the comments so far:

soon we will be releasing more marketing material to distinguish between traditional, Revolution and Phoenix. Each category has it's own level of responsiveness and the Phoenix Gold will not be tapered and hollow ground. If you're willing to sacrifice these features, and want the lightest blade with the Gold Seal curve, then yes, this blade is probably best for you. Stay tuned as we have more informative content lined up!

I'm assuming they'll create a whole line of phoenix blades from their current lineup of traditional blades.

Someone asked if the blades need a unique sharpening equipment/jig like in matrix blades and here's their response:

nope! We’ve designed this to have parallel datum flats for ease of maintenance!

[Arwen17]

From Reddit, I think the user was quoting from YouTube:

17 days ago
Ditto Ultima. Hope skaters who buy it know to make sure their sharpeners have the right equipment for it.


16 days ago
here's what I read from the comments so far:

soon we will be releasing more marketing material to distinguish between traditional, Revolution and Phoenix. Each category has it's own level of responsiveness and the Phoenix Gold will not be tapered and hollow ground. If you're willing to sacrifice these features, and want the lightest blade with the Gold Seal curve, then yes, this blade is probably best for you. Stay tuned as we have more informative content lined up!

I'm assuming they'll create a whole line of phoenix blades from their current lineup of traditional blades.

Someone asked if the blades need a unique sharpening equipment/jig like in matrix blades and here's their response:

nope! We’ve designed this to have parallel datum flats for ease of maintenance!

Thank you for this description. I'm getting ready to probably buy Gold Seal Revolution and then I found out about these Phoenix blades coming soon and panic! I don't want to buy something only to regret it when something "better" gets released only a week later. Personally, I don't find the Phoenix blades as "pretty" lol, but I'm obsessed with lightness..... But how much weight difference is there really going to be between a Revolution and a Phoenix?

[tstop4me]

Thank you for this description. I'm getting ready to probably buy Gold Seal Revolution and then I found out about these Phoenix blades coming soon and panic! I don't want to buy something only to regret it when something "better" gets released only a week later. Personally, I don't find the Phoenix blades as "pretty" lol, but I'm obsessed with lightness..... But how much weight difference is there really going to be between a Revolution and a Phoenix?

Did you note the caveat:   "Each category has it's own level of responsiveness and the Phoenix Gold will not be tapered and hollow ground. If you're willing to sacrifice these features, and want the lightest blade with the Gold Seal curve, then yes, this blade is probably best for you."? 

Are you willing to forgo the tapered thickness and concave side honing?

[Arwen17]

Did you note the caveat:   "Each category has it's own level of responsiveness and the Phoenix Gold will not be tapered and hollow ground. If you're willing to sacrifice these features, and want the lightest blade with the Gold Seal curve, then yes, this blade is probably best for you."? 

Are you willing to forgo the tapered thickness and concave side honing?

I'm still planning on buying the Gold Seal Rev. My question was more rhetorical: how much is the weight difference really going to be between the GS Rev. and the Phoenix? 0.02 oz? I was just making the point that it would have sucked to buy GS Rev. and suddenly this FAR superior blade was released a month later, but this turned out to not be the case.

[Arwen17]

The thing that I remember most about my trial with Gold Seals was how easy it was to get a loud "rip" using just modest edges. They were noisy - something that I attribute to the tapered blade.

So you get to fake that you have better edges than you do with some added sound effects? XD That's awesome haha.

I'm coming from a Matrix Legacy blade, which is the first "real" blade I've ever really skated on. Before that, it was the super cheap crappy Mark IV. Granted I was doing underrotated axels and camel spins in Mark IV, so I can do a lot of stuff, even with subpar equipment. The Legacy toe pick was a big jump up for me and bothered me at first, but once I adjusted to the size of it, I fell in love with it. I didn't really notice any other difference since I've always made a point to skate on blades with a 8" rocker since the very beginning.
It will be interesting if GSRev feels any different to me or not. It may very well not have much of any difference to me, since like I said, I seem to be very non-sensitive to equipment changes and can skate on pretty much anything as long as it doesn't break down underneath the force of my jumps etc. I did literally destroy a recreational boot when I was first learning toe loop. oops!

[Bill_S]

I skated with a figure skating judge on morning ice. When I put on the Gold Seals and demonstrated the "growly" edges, she laughed. There are some moves tests where a rip sound is expected.

She said, in jest, that she'd have to start asking about skater's blades before a test.

[tstop4me]

I skated with a figure skating judge on morning ice. When I put on the Gold Seals and demonstrated the "growly" edges, she laughed. There are some moves tests where a rip sound is expected.

She said, in jest, that she'd have to start asking about skater's blades before a test.

That's interesting.  Paramounts have a reputation for being especially noisy.  Some coaches I know caution skaters to shy away from them because some judges consider the noise to be indicative of scraping the toepicks, leading to downgrades.  Just the opposite scenario of the one you describe:  noise possibly giving an advantage.

[Bill_S]

I would see that as a different kind of noise. Think of hockey skates and the way they amplify scraping sounds vs. a growling rip from pressed edges on figure skates.

[tstop4me]

I would see that as a different kind of noise. Think of hockey skates and the way they amplify scraping sounds vs. a growling rip from pressed edges on figure skates.

Yeah, but the question is whether some judges' hearing is sufficiently discerning.  One coach I know prefers Paramounts.  She cautions skaters that judges should be able to tell the difference ... but don't count on it.  [ETA:  One pro shop I've gone to is run by a guy who is a coach, and previously a competitive and pro skater.  He gave me the same caution about Ultima Matrix blades as well.  I skate for fun, and don't do tests (though my coach keeps nudging me to); so noise is not a concern of mine.]

[tstop4me]

But these blades were advertised as being lighter than other similar blades, but were presumably still sufficiently strong and rigid. As best I understand it, one of the ways to do that is by removing the parts of the structure that take the least stress. Honeycombing the interior structure would be a lot harder to do, but a complicated side-honing pattern (i.e., uneven thicknesses) on the chassis (or whatever you want to call the structure that holds the "runner" that touches the ice), helps do that. Of course, most high end blades already have cut-out areas, which help with that too.

The point is, Will they allow skaters to perform better?  Assuming, for the sake of argument, that the lighter weight does allow at least a subset of elite skaters to perform better, performance will still depend on properly sharpened edges:  What good is having the world's lightest blade, if the edges are easy to screw up when they get sharpened (assuming you can find someone to sharpen them)?

[FigureSpins]

One of the younger skaters at our rink - around Intermediate Freeskate level - just got Phoenix Gold Seals, in black.  They look so unusual with the white skates on the white ice.  She's got great edging and turns - I could hear the rips, but it wasn't that much louder than she was doing on her previous blades.  You'll get used to them.

[Query]

She says there is no way I'll pass silver moves if I can't quiet them down.
I'm hoping it's just because they are super sharp???

Wouldn't super sharp blades would have less slide slip, and would therefore be quieter?

And if it is the chassis + runner construction, I can't think of a reason that would be noisier - unless the connection is not very good. That would worry me - if the connection isn't good, it could mean the blade might break, or even shift in use. The pictures appear to show them being riveted together. But there may also be glue between the, and if that isn't solid, that could be a bad sign for blade lifetime.

I haven't noticed my old-style Matrix blades (chassis and runner bolted together tight by me, by 5 bolts/blade, not screwed [and the screws glued] by just 3 tiny screws like the newer style) Matrix blades are especially noisy in terms of edge noise - except when I DO accidentally let the toe pick touch. However, they neglected to put something like sound-absorbing rubber between the blade and the top of the mount - so they would CLICK (especially when they were new) when my toe pick touched, and maybe when the back of the blade touched. I eventually glued in thin rubber or similar material buffer strips to stop that - but Ultima should have done that at the factory.

But maybe I am less picky about noise than some?

I have wondered about the physics of chassis+runner construction, when they aren't made of the same material. If the two materials have different thermal expansion characteristics, how can they stay together as you move between off-ice and on-ice?

I suppose one way to take care of that would be to be held by just bolts or screws, and to have extra space to give between the sides of the holder and the blade. The blade or the holder could then warp a little between the bolts or screws. But then the blade and holder could vibrate against each other, and make noise. That could be taken care of by using sound absorbing compressive material between the two - but AFAIK, none of those blades have that - though the glue could do that if it was formulated right. On old-style Matrix, the bolts pulled the sides of the holder against the blade, if you made them tight enough, so that didn't really happen. It would have been a great system - if they hadn't used soft aluminum bolts that sometimes stripped the threads and the very small hex key heads, and they had used rubber buffer.

I think Paramount blades have only glue, no bolts or screws - right?

Some hockey blades were made with replaceable edges - not the replaceable runners that almost all high end hockey blades now all have. I think you replaced the edge instead of re-sharpening them. I saw a complaint that they were very noisy, so much so that opponents could tell what you were doing with the edges. It's the same idea - if you have two pieces against each other, that aren't locked into place very tight, they can vibrate. I assume that problem doesn't occur in replaceable runner hockey blades, because they too use holder material that warps to fit when you tighten them in place?

[tstop4me]

I think Paramount blades have only glue, no bolts or screws - right?

Paramount does not use any separate mechanical fasteners, such as bolts, screws, or rivets.  Their website provides no details of how they attach the runner to the chassis.  But I looked up their patent; there they disclose that they use an adhesive.

[tstop4me]

And if it is the chassis + runner construction, I can't think of a reason that would be noisier - unless the connection is not very good. That would worry me - if the connection isn't good, it could mean the blade might break, or even shift in use. The pictures appear to show them being riveted together. But there may also be glue between the, and if that isn't solid, that could be a bad sign for blade lifetime.

Here's one possible mechanism that doesn't involve loose connections.  There is a strong discontinuity in materials at the boundary (interface) between the runner and the chassis.  Acoustic waves are generated in the runner through mechanical interaction with the ice.  Some of the acoustic waves are transmitted by the runner into the air (as they are in a traditional blade).  Other acoustic waves propagate through the runner to the boundary and are scattered at the boundary.  Some of the scattered waves are transmitted into the air (which does not happen in a traditional blade).  Some of the scattered waves are propagated into the chassis.  The chassis has more surface area than the corresponding region of a traditional blade.  The chassis then acts as a larger acoustic transmitter than the corresponding region of a traditional blade.  This would be an interesting problem to model and test.

[Query]

The H.D.I. doesn't measure rocker (by which I assume you mean the blade curvature along the longitudinal axis from toe to heel) at all.

Edge Specialties, that sells the H.D.I. says on their website

Troubleshoot:

    Check for accurate hollow depth
    Check for edge balance
    Check rocker radius

The H.D.I. is the only measuring tool that indicates the precise depth of hollow, the edge balance and rocker radius. This indication by the H.D.I. will totally remove the skate grinding guesswork and deliver confidence to the skate sharpening professional and skater.

Perhaps they mean ROH (radius of hollow) rather than rocker? But elsewhere on their site they use "hollow" and rocker the same way we do.

I couldn't figure out from the pictures how the HDI would measure rocker - I think you need at least three depth measurements along the length of the blade to do that. Did they make a mistake in their ad?

(Such a mistake would actually be consistent with the fact that the same page lists a table with the correspondence between hollow depth and ROH - though such a table can only be accurate if the blades are still sharp, but have been very lightly deburred, so there is no foil edge sticking above the hollow/side corner. On a dull blade, they would be in accurate.)


Also, as near as I can measure it without extreme skill, using my calipers (which read to .0005", but I'm not that consistent), Berghman sharpeners need a flat blade region at a height above the edge of

.3820" = 9.690 mm

I can carefully make it work with my old style Matrix blades (though I'm not sure the coarse crumbly old stone - possibly a natural "grindstone" - would work on stainless steel blades) - but I'm not actually clamping on the runner, or even the tilted surface next to the runner. But it was certainly easier on parallel sided MK Dance blades, and flat sided Coronation Ace blades. Of course, since old style Matrix runners were removable, I could do it more easily by removing the runners from the chassis - but that is inconvenient for a quick sharpen at the rink, and I tried to avoid demounting the runner as much as I could with those stupid soft aluminum bolts and nuts. New style Matrix runners are not removable, so doing it that way simply isn't an option anymore.

Also, all Berghman sharpeners were designed for .5" ROH. I once tried wrapping tape around a 3/8" radius stone from my Pro-Filer, and putting it in the Berghman holder, but the tape compressed a bit inconsistently, and I didn't like the results. So I bought a used 1/2" (Hockey) Pro-Filer on the web and used its stone instead - which worked, on rental skates - I didn't want that .5" ROH on my "real" blades.

So - unless the Phoenix blades have a flat surface at that height to clamp on to, all the way down the length of the blade, Berghman sharpeners would probably not do a great job on Phoenix Blades.

Help me to figure out why they don't create nice flat surfaces to clamp on to, on Phoenix blades?

P.S. I'm not sure there has to be significantly more sound-emitting surface area on Chassis+runner style blades, but your idea that noise is partly scattered out of the steel by a boundary layer effect sounds plausible. Could one theoretically use a sound-absorbing material between the chassis and runner without adverse effect?

[tstop4me]

Edge Specialties, that sells the H.D.I. says on their website

Perhaps they mean ROH (radius of hollow) rather than rocker? But elsewhere on their site they use "hollow" and rocker the same way we do.

I couldn't figure out from the pictures how the HDI would measure rocker - I think you need at least three depth measurements along the length of the blade to do that. Did they make a mistake in their ad?

(Such a mistake would actually be consistent with the fact that the same page lists a table with the correspondence between hollow depth and ROH - though such a table can only be accurate if the blades are still sharp, but have been very lightly deburred, so there is no foil edge sticking above the hollow/side corner. On a dull blade, they would be in accurate.)

The page you cited needs to be rewritten.  The H.D.I. definitely is not capable of measuring rocker radius; it takes measurements only transverse to the longitudinal axis.  Edge Specialties does sell rocker bar templates (http://pro-filer.com/rockerbars/), suitable for hockey, but not figure skates (their templates range from 9' to 28' radius, whereas figure skates typically are 7' or 8' radius for the main rocker). 

If you continue to the bottom of the page you cited for the H.D.I. description, you will find the following under the heading "Blade Condition--Is it Really Important?":

"Improperly conditioned blades, whether it be dull edges, inappropriate hollow, off center hollow or distorted hollow can greatly hinder a skater’s performance. Hollow depth, edge balance, edge sharpness and blade rockering are the four primary factors of "Blade Condition". Any deterioration of blade condition will negatively affect skater performance. The worse the condition, the more negative the impact.

The majority of skaters, both figure and hockey, are performing on faulty blades. Faulty blade conditions should be discovered when repair is easily performed. But, other than dull edges, it is difficult to evaluate blade condition without specific measuring tools.

The H.D.I. and Rocker Bars present an instant picture of blade condition. These tools will detect defects early and accurately so that you can make adjustments before skater performance is compromised. Poor blade conditions can easily be detected and consequently corrected if you have the proper tools and information. Where skate blades are concerned, what you don’t know definitely can hurt you!"  <<Emphasis Added>>

So some writer jumbled up the H.D.I. and Rocker Bars.  And no one at Edge Specialties proofread the copy, apparently.

[tstop4me]

Help me to figure out why they don't create nice flat surfaces to clamp on to, on Phoenix blades?

Previous discussions touched on this issue.

I wrote:

I was hoping that Wilson had learned from the mistakes that Ultima Matrix and Paramount made:  when you design a new blade, you need to take into consideration ease of sharpening and ease of checking the edges (preferably with existing equipment; not custom gear for each line).

To which you responded:

But these blades were advertised as being lighter than other similar blades, but were presumably still sufficiently strong and rigid. As best I understand it, one of the ways to do that is by removing the parts of the structure that take the least stress. Honeycombing the interior structure would be a lot harder to do, but a complicated side-honing pattern (i.e., uneven thicknesses) on the chassis (or whatever you want to call the structure that holds the "runner" that touches the ice), helps do that. Of course, most high end blades already have cut-out areas, which help with that too.

To which I in turn responded:

The point is, Will they allow skaters to perform better?  Assuming, for the sake of argument, that the lighter weight does allow at least a subset of elite skaters to perform better, performance will still depend on properly sharpened edges:  What good is having the world's lightest blade, if the edges are easy to screw up when they get sharpened (assuming you can find someone to sharpen them)?

If I understand your response correctly, even you were in favor of sacrificing ease of sharpening and edge checking for lighter weight.  Now consider the perspective of the Wilson marketing guys, who want the bragging rights to the "world's lightest blade".

A good chunk of my career was spent as a systems engineer writing requirements for design engineers.  A key issue that constantly arises is local optimization vs. global optimization; i.e., you need to consider the overall performance of the system, not just the performance of individual components and modules.  In our current context, we have blade manufacturers (as well as boot manufacturers) narrowly focussed on optimizing weight (i.e., achieving the lightest weight) without considering overall performance.  As I wrote before:  What good is having the world's lightest blade, if the edges are easy to screw up when they get sharpened (assuming you can find someone to sharpen them)?

Knife fanatics obsess over grades of steel and blade profiles.  One factor of concern to them is "sharpenability" :  not only do you need to consider which steel and which profile can achieve a sharp, durable edge, you also need to consider how easily you can form (sharpen) that edge in the first place and how easily you can maintain (resharpen) that edge afterwards.  Skate blade manufacturers need to adopt a similar philosophy.  E.g., Paramount brags about CNC grinders for sharpening at their factory.  OK, but how many skate techs have such equipment for subsequent sharpenings?  If I were writing requirements for a new blade design, I would include requirements addressing ease of sharpening and edge checking. Of course, the marketing guys would probably beat on me to delete them. As would the artistic designers, probably.