skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: hellotwizzles on April 01, 2018, 03:14:33 PM
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Alright, noob question here!
So the blades have a “Recommended” ROH on the box, right? Is that he ROH I should ask for when I get my blades sharpened?
My pro shop (or at least the one I found for now!) has an online booking system where you just drop your skates off, they sharpen and pick them up and that is done on the basis of weight, skating frequency, elements, etc. I don’t think I’m high level enough for that so would I just put my weight and frequency and say basic or STAR 2? Will the ProShop then tell me what the hollow is in case I go somewhere else or do they just have a standard based on certain criteria and then they just expect you to come back?
I’m still shopping for a permanent coach and rink and so I’d like to have all my info in case I don’t keep coming back to the same people and place.
If you are a coach yourself or work in a pro shop your reccs would be so appreciated!
I’ve just started formal lessons and will skate twice a week (one public session just to skate/practice and enjoy myself, practice some skills, and one skating “club” session with a private coach I have contracted for eight lessons- the sessions are 75 mins and I have two 15 min lessons in each club session. Working on stroking/learning proper chasses , Mohawk/3-turns, spin entry and back spin/scratch and camel with the coach.
Weigh 120-125, and Not a jumper- maybe I’ll get over this soon when I feel more secure on the ice- maybe I’m just not a jumper.
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If you input your statistics and they provide the ROH based on that info, I would think that you could ask about what ROH they used. I would hope that they don't consider it a "trade secret"!
Keep in mind that experienced skaters may prefer a different ROH than the shop's formula dictates. Certainly there's a "comments" section for someone with strong personal preferences. Do you know what you have been skating with until now? Maybe you could ask for that somehow.
I sharpen my own skates and use a fairly aggressive 3/8" ROH hand-sharpening stone. That might be a bit "grabby" for someone starting on three-turns and other basics.
One-half inch or 7/16" inch ROH is more "relaxed", and those two are very common for both beginners and experienced skaters. I have skated in both of those, and liked them. In fact, I'm tempted to go back up to 1/2" again someday.
I do see that some of the new Eclipse blades have suggested ROH values up to an inch. These larger ROH values would be good for increased flow, but I don't have any experience with values that large.
With new blades, it's desirable to settle on one ROH and not dither too much making a decision on which you like best. Blade material gets ground away faster when switching between different ROH. Experimentation is OK and useful if not done excessively.
BTW, what blades did you get?
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My pro shop (or at least the one I found for now!) has an online booking system where you just drop your skates off, they sharpen and pick them up and that is done on the basis of weight, skating frequency, elements, etc.
That would make me very nervous. Before letting someone sharpen my blades, I would always want to TALK to the skate tech (the sharpener), and make sure it is always the main skate tech, because one bad sharpening can wreck your blades.
BTW, I hope you found a great skate tech.
What is the blade manufacturer's recommendation? 7/16" is usually pretty safe. 3/8" does grab the ice and help you track better, with less skidding, and may work better with some thinline Ice Dance blades (which I presume you don't have), but longer radii, like 7/16" or 1/2" glide faster and longer. I'm puzzled as to anyone would recommend 1" for figure skating - unless you were doing something like school figures, where you have to do very long glides from one push. But there is a lot of individual variation in what people want.
Like Bill I sharpen my own but that usually isn't ideal for beginners, because you need to be able to figure out whether you have made a mistake, and what it is that you want - and there is a learning curve.
If the blades come from Jackson Ultima or Paramount, they don't need to be re-sharpened, because the factory does a good job - you can probably stay with the factory sharpening at first. If from MK, Wilson or Riedell, you probably should get the blades sharpened by someone who really knows what they are doing. In any event, ask the seller whether they already resharpened them after getting them from the factory - many sellers do their own re-sharpening without being asked, even mail order places.
Anyway, since you have a coach, and you are relatively new to this, it probably makes sense to initially use that coach's recommendation, on the pro shop, the skate tech, and the ROH. However - Riedell blades aren't pre-sharpened at all, so if you have them, and the seller didn't resharpen, you can't wait until your next lesson. If you have MK or Wilson blades, you can try them, and see if you notice any problems in balance or skidding. Eventually you can decide for yourself whether you want more grab, or faster glide.
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Do you know what you have been skating with until now?
BTW, what blades did you get?
I got the Jerry’s Sterling Blade. Guy at the other pro-shop I went to said that they mount these to skates up to the Edea Chorus level and theyre pretty similar in profile to the Ace I was originally reccommended and far cheaper. I think if theyre terrible though- they were under $100 and so its not too costly a lesson if theyre really that bad.
i used to have my skates sharpened at SportChek/general sporting goods store so I think that I was skating on 5/8ths? the standard rec sharpening according to the internet. Could I get that on figure blades?
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... I think that I was skating on 5/8ths? the standard rec sharpening according to the internet. Could I get that on figure blades?
Yes, you could get that on just about any blade.
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Since you're working on spins, I'd suggest 7/16" ROH. For some reason, sharpeners are using that instead of the 1/2" roh that most coaches suggest for freestyle skating. I don't know why - it must make their job simpler because everyone I know who used to use 1/2" were switched to 7/16" by the sharpener. When I was doing doubles, I used 3/8" so that's what I stick with now. Even 1/2" makes me skate sideways on the blade. (Weight issue)
Some disgruntled skaters/parents have suggested a conspiracy theory: new blades hold their sharpenings longer, so the blades need fewer sharpenings and last longer. Therefore, the sharpeners reduce the ROH so blades need sharpening sooner. More sharpenings = new blades sooner, so pro shops sell blades at the same rate.
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Since you're working on spins, I'd suggest 7/16" ROH. For some reason, sharpeners are using that instead of the 1/2" roh that most coaches suggest for freestyle skating. I don't know why - it must make their job simpler because everyone I know who used to use 1/2" were switched to 7/16" by the sharpener. When I was doing doubles, I used 3/8" so that's what I stick with now. Even 1/2" makes me skate sideways on the blade. (Weight issue)
Some disgruntled skaters/parents have suggested a conspiracy theory: new blades hold their sharpenings longer, so the blades need fewer sharpenings and last longer. Therefore, the sharpeners reduce the ROH so blades need sharpening sooner. More sharpenings = new blades sooner, so pro shops sell blades at the same rate.
You raise some interesting points.
(a) Is there only one decent sharpener in your area? I'm surprised he's able to dictate what ROH he'll give to his customers, rather than his customers specifying the ROH they want. Unless he's the only game in town.
(b) The main advantage for a sharpener to supply a single ROH for every customer is that he doesn't have to redress the grinding wheel as often. Saves time if he's got a lot of skates to sharpen, and extends the service life of the grinding wheel.
(c) Not sure about the conspiracy theory though. There are some manufacturers that supply some models with high-grade stainless steel runners, and Jackson Ultima touts some models with their E-X-T hardened edges; these can extend time between sharpenings [I can personally vouch for extended edge life in the Eclipse Aurora and Paramount Freestyle 440C stainless steel blades; no personal experience with E-X-T]. But the bulk of the blades on the market (particularly Wilson and MK) is still fabricated from traditional carbon steel, so I'm not sure how much of a hit the sharpening business has taken.
The amount of extra metal removed going from 1/2" to 7/16" ROH is really small; and I don't think there's much difference (if at all) in the amount of metal removed maintaining a 7/16" vs a 1/2" ROH, once established. Also, not sure that a 7/16" ROH would require more frequent sharpening than a 1/2" ROH ... could work the other way actually.
At any rate, if an insidious tech wanted to sell more new blades, he wouldn't have to dictate a smaller ROH ... he could simply do more passes than needed, irrespective of the ROH, to intentionally remove excess metal.
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So the blades have a “Recommended” ROH on the box, right? Is that he ROH I should ask for when I get my blades sharpened?
My pro shop (or at least the one I found for now!) has an online booking system where you just drop your skates off, they sharpen and pick them up and that is done on the basis of weight, skating frequency, elements, etc. I don’t think I’m high level enough for that so would I just put my weight and frequency and say basic or STAR 2? Will the ProShop then tell me what the hollow is in case I go somewhere else or do they just have a standard based on certain criteria and then they just expect you to come back?
(a) Recommended ROH is just the manufacturer's initial estimate. Eclipse, e.g., gives a recommended value, but does not sharpen their blades at the factory ... they leave it to the customer to decide what he wants.
(b) I guess what your pro shop does is OK for a customer who has no clue what ROH he wants. But you should soon get in the habit of specifying what ROH you want. I agree with others; at your stage, 7/16" is a good value to start with. As you become more advanced, you can decide whether to go larger (flatter) or smaller (deeper).
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I do see that some of the new Eclipse blades have suggested ROH values up to an inch. These larger ROH values would be good for increased flow, but I don't have any experience with values that large.
I was surprised to see your post on this, so I checked the Eclipse website. The only blade with a recommended 1" ROH is their dance blade. I wonder if this is a typo. They do mention that their dance blade has a slimline profile. They don't specify the actual blade thickness, but I know that other dance blades have a smaller thickness than freestyle blades. Which makes this really surprising, since, for a fixed ROH, the amount of bite decreases as blade thickness decreases. So the amount of bite for a 1" ROH on a thin blade would be really reduced. Typically a large ROH is desired for skaters who value glide over bite. I'm not an ice dancer, but I thought ice dancers valued bite over glide. Could the ice dancers here confirm?
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I discussed the Eclipse factory ROH with a Riedell rep when the blades were first announced. IIRC, the gist of the convo was that Eclipse decided to not do substantial factory sharpenings because skaters/coaches had a variety of preferences. A competing rep said Riedell was saving money by not sharpening, plus there was less chance of the factory worker scratching the finish of the blade. (I do like the snark!)
http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=1165.0
Ice dancers typically do use a less-shallow ROH than freeskaters but I think the Eclipse Dance blade was targeted at moves, synchro and low-level freestyle skaters as well as dancers. I think they just picked a shallow number since Riedell has said from their first announcements that the Eclipse blades must be sharpened before use.
My Silver Test figure blade has a 1" ROH and I really have to press into the edges to hold the curves.
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I agree with the suggestion to try 7/16" for the OP's blades. That's what is typically given at the OSU rink in Columbus, OH, the closest pro shop to me with a good reputation. They will, of course, provide a different ROH if you ask for it.
Now a little thread drift: I'd love to try the 1" ROH just once to see/feel the difference. I'm sure that many here know this already, but speed skaters sharpen their blades flat (i.e. 90 degrees, infinite ROH) yet they manage to grip at extreme lean angles. Their sharpening routine is more meticulous than we are used to, always by hand, and the times between sharpenings are short.
http://www.sjspeedskaters.ca/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/sharpening-speed-skates-doc.-2014.pdf (http://www.sjspeedskaters.ca/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/sharpening-speed-skates-doc.-2014.pdf)
It would be fun to pick up a little speed or to maintain speed without tiring as much. However with the more curved rockers of figure skates, I wonder how much grip I'd forfeit?
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It would be fun to pick up a little speed or to maintain speed without tiring as much. However with the more curved rockers of figure skates, I wonder how much grip I'd forfeit?
Another way to accomplish this is to switch to a blade with a flatter (larger radius) main rocker. I believe you are skating with the Coronation Ace (7' radius main rocker). When I switched from a 7' to an 8' radius main rocker, I was pleasantly surprised at the substantially improved glide. Previously, I had to really push hard to complete full circles on my figure-8's; no longer a problem. And I actually had to tone it down on my back cross-overs: I started zipping at more speed than I was comfortable handling.
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I wanted to try an 8' rocker a few years back. I purchased some Jackson Synchro blades, and they were advertised to be an 8" rocker, with a 7/16" ROH.
First, they were NOT sharp from the factory. Although the factory sharpener took a pass at them, the blade edges are still visibly unsharp, even to the point of looking beveled about 0.010" in an area near the spin rocker. It would take forever for me to hand sharpen those.
Second, I measured the rocker on them (http://www.afterness.com/skating/blade_rocker_measurements.html (http://www.afterness.com/skating/blade_rocker_measurements.html)), and it was 7.5 feet, not the 8' advertised. This could be a by-product of the initial factory sharpening.
I ended up not mounting them. The reasons stated above contributed to my decision, but my main concern was getting used to new blades after all these years skating in Aces.
But I am still curious about how they'd feel.
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For the spectators, there's some thread drift happening in the last two posts.
The original post (OP) was about Radius of Hollow - basically, the depth of the curve between the blade edges.
Rocker Radius is created by the blade's curve from front to back. (Skaters spin/turn on the "Rocker" of the blade.)
Two very-different concepts. Rocker Radius is not an option on the OP's sharpening form, however. Stick with 7/16" and, as Bill points out, factory sharpenings are just to try out the alignment of the blades. Sharpen new blades as soon as you're sure they're okay.
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Yeah, I drifted. Sorry.
I know how talkative some of us can get.
I do have an infographic PDF describing these terms at http://www.afterness.com/skating/skate_blade_geometry.pdf (http://www.afterness.com/skating/skate_blade_geometry.pdf) to help the innocent bystanders.
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^ Excellent graphic, thank you! May I please share it with others?
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Of course! Share away.
I made it for a presentation requested by the local skating club, and it was meant to be shared.
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For the spectators, there's some thread drift happening in the last two posts.
The original post (OP) was about Radius of Hollow - basically, the depth of the curve between the blade edges.
Rocker Radius is created by the blade's curve from front to back. (Skaters spin/turn on the "Rocker" of the blade.)
Two very-different concepts. Rocker Radius is not an option on the OP's sharpening form, however. Stick with 7/16" and, as Bill points out, factory sharpenings are just to try out the alignment of the blades. Sharpen new blades as soon as you're sure they're okay.
Rocker given on the box is 7ft for me- to my knowledge they couldn’t be changed...is there a way to change rockers other than blade damage or use? Just asking for curiosity haha
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Rocker given on the box is 7ft for me- to my knowledge they couldn’t be changed...is there a way to change rockers other than blade damage or use? Just asking for curiosity haha
In principle, a sharpener could intentionally [or unintentionally] change the rocker. In practice, not worth it, because you have to consider the entire blade profile: main rocker, intermediate rocker [if present], spin rocker, and pick placement. Too much to adjust, and probably too much metal wasted in the process; remember, most blades have a limited zone that is hardened and tempered to the proper degree for the working edges.
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BTW, I apologize for using the term "beginner" in
Like Bill I sharpen my own but that usually isn't ideal for beginners
I meant a beginning sharpener, not a beginning skater!
Since you're working on spins, I'd suggest 7/16" ROH. For some reason, sharpeners are using that instead of the 1/2" roh that most coaches suggest for freestyle skating. I don't know why - it must make their job simpler because everyone I know who used to use 1/2" were switched to 7/16" by the sharpener.
Why do most coaches suggest 1/2" for freestyle skating, as opposed to 7/16"?
Does that mean that at freestyle level, glide is more important than push?
Or is it just assumed that freestyle skaters will take good care of their blades, and can therefore make do with a less sharp edge?
Or is it something else about the blades? E.g., many people recommend 3/8" for Ice Dance blades because the most common Dance blades (like MK Dance) are ground thinner than most freestyle blades near the bottom, so you need a smaller ROH to get a similar edge angle and sharpness. OTOH, SOME freestyle blades are side-honed with a dovetail cut, which gives the edge a thinner and sharper edge angle than the ROH alone would - but NOT low and intermediate level blades, like I assume the original poster is using.
And why would you want a smaller (and therefore sharper) ROH for spins? I would have thought that would slow down the spin too much. Is the idea to create a stronger initial push to stop travelling?
Freestyle skaters tend to prefer slightly warmer (and hence softer) ice than hockey players, so they wouldn't need as sharp blades for that - but most rinks don't vary temperature between hockey and freestyle sessions, except for extended time figure or hockey events, so that that mostly isn't relevant.
I'm basing what follows on what a variety of skate techs who sharpened blades have told me:
As to why a sharpener might push everyone to use the same ROH, it is certainly easier, faster, and cheaper, for a sharpener to use one ROH for everyone. Because on most powered machine sharpeners, you have to spend time "dressing" the sharpening wheel to a given ROH. That also wears out the sharpening wheel - you are taking a lot of material away from the wheel. Perhaps it also wears out the diamond dressing tip.
It also wears out the blades more. Because as you use a wheel sharpen, it slowly changes its ROH. If, over a period of months, you use the same wheel without redressing, you will gradually change the ROH of the blades it sharpens a very little bit, but not by a very significant amount, in terms of the way the blade performs. But when you redress the wheel frequently, you will probably change the ROH a lot - and take off more metal. I think this is partly because, at least on the dresser I looked at, you hand-adjust the ROH, so it isn't exact.
Finally, it is harder to make a mistake if the sharpener uses the same ROH with everyone.
BUT pushing all figure skaters to use 7/16" would make no sense for the sharpener - most (but not all!) good hockey skaters want 1/2". So, unless the sharpener groups the skates as he sharpens - sharpens a bunch of hockey skates, then a bunch of figure skates (which, by the way, many sharpeners do), they waste time and money switching between ROH for hockey and figure skates, if the sharpen one pair at a time, as customers come in.
Incidentally, some sharpeners switch between wheels instead of redressing, for different ROH. Either by demounting and remounting wheels, or by having a more expensive sharpening machine with multiple wheels ["stations"]. In addition, some sharpeners have multiple wheels of different coarseness for different purposes.
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And why would you want a smaller (and therefore sharper) ROH for spins? I would have thought that would slow down the spin too much.?
Oops, I wasn't thinking clearly.
1/2" is larger, and therefore less sharp. So of course it makes it easier to spin.
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Oops, I wasn't thinking clearly.
1/2" is larger, and therefore less sharp. So of course it makes it easier to spin.
Actually, you got it right the first time. FigureSpins recommended 7/16", not 1/2", ROH for spins:
Since you're working on spins, I'd suggest 7/16" ROH. For some reason, sharpeners are using that instead of the 1/2" roh that most coaches suggest for freestyle skating.
I haven't thought about the effect of ROH during the spin itself, but I find that a deep hollow (3/8") helps me with the entry to a forward scratch spin.
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It's not really "sharpness," it's "depth" as in shallow or deep.
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It's not really "sharpness," it's "depth" as in shallow or deep.
From your experience, does a deeper hollow (smaller ROH) make it easier to enter the spin, easier to maintain the spin once established, or both?
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1/2 " is too glidey.
7/16" is too grippy.
I'm now at 15/32". Yes, you can tell.
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Liked 7/16" as a beginner, and hated 1/2" (wouldn't grip at all!). Took ice dance, was recommended 3/8", and never looked back. Holding an edge became a breeze.
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Mine was ½" (default; no real thought went into it) until I switched techs about two years ago. He asked some questions about my skating (specifically, whether I had trouble stopping right after a sharpening) and decided to move me to ⅝". Now I'm wondering whether I should reevaluate that now.
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It's not really "sharpness," it's "depth" as in shallow or deep.
If you think about it, it's even more complicated. Because many (most?) sharpeners deliberate dull (round off) the tip of the edge, to make it more durable and less prone to being bent over, and so people don't notice as much the change in sharpness after sharpening. Rounding affects the depth of the hollow associated with a given ROH too. And it definitely affects effective sharpness.
The hollow creates a fairly specific "edge angle" - though if the blade is side honed (e.g., with a dovetail shape, widest at the bottom), that alters the edge angle that a given ROH generates. Edge angle is a big component of effective sharpness.
I prefer to repoint and polish the sharpening burrs into thin foil edges, which act very, very sharp - but are not very durable at all. But, while I worked at a rink, I sometimes gave up on foil edges, and dulled my edges instead, because I didn't always have time to put on blade guards, so the edges took a beating.
On top of that, the grit of the grinding wheel (or sharpening stone, if you do it by hand) has a profound effect on effective sharpness. Fine grit makes blades feel a lot sharper. I'm not certain I completely understand why.
But the o.p. may not have a lot of control over all these other factors, especially if they don't let him/her interact directly with the sharpener, to specify degree of rounding, deburring vs creating a foil edge, grit size, etc. So while ROH alone does not determine effective sharpness, it sounds like the only way the o.p. can affect effective sharpness may be to specify ROH.
One could argue that unless the prior blades were significantly thinner or thicker, the ROH on the prior blades might be a good starting point, because that is what he/she is used to - unless he/she wants to adjust ROH to make spin entry stronger (lower ROH) or to make the spinning friction less (higher ROH).
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From your experience, does a deeper hollow (smaller ROH) make it easier to enter the spin, easier to maintain the spin once established, or both?
YMMV, but to me, the deeper hollow makes it easier to hold the FO edge on the entrance and hook the spin more quickly. Staying on the sweet spot and proper body alignment maintains the spin moreso than the ROH. I can maintain spins on 1/2" but they're easier on 3/8" because the entry is more controlled. Sharp skates with any ROH for good camels and laybacks.
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YMMV, but to me, the deeper hollow makes it easier to hold the FO edge on the entrance and hook the spin more quickly. Staying on the sweet spot and proper body alignment maintains the spin moreso than the ROH. I can maintain spins on 1/2" but they're easier on 3/8" because the entry is more controlled. Sharp skates with any ROH for good camels and laybacks.
Thanks. Those are the premises I've been going by as well for scratch spins.
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OK, I think I'm confused... if a deeper hollow/smaller ROH makes it easier to hold edges, why are patch blades usually sharpened with a bigger ROH??
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Patch blades need flow, so the push takes you around further. A larger ROH helps with that.
The edges talked about are much deeper edges (more leaning into the curve) than you find in patch.
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Patch blades need flow, so the push takes you around further. A larger ROH helps with that.
The edges talked about are much deeper edges (more leaning into the curve) than you find in patch.
That makes sense. Thanks!
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Patch blades need flow, so the push takes you around further. A larger ROH helps with that.
The edges talked about are much deeper edges (more leaning into the curve) than you find in patch.
Also, patch blades are wider than freestyle blades. So a 1" or 1.5"(like I have on mine) don't translate to a 1"or 1.5"on a freestyle blade.
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Now I have to go look at my Silver Test blades.
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Just some data FWIW,
My current Coronation Ace blades - 0.162" thick blade
My old Coronation Aces circa 2003 - 0.161" thick blade
Jackson Ultima Synchro blades - 0.157" thick blade
Measured with a Starrett 1" micrometer with the circular anvil flush with the skating edge.
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Original sharpener was a 1/2 kind of guy. Worked for me.
The sharpener at my new rink did a mystery ROH on me, was super grippy. I was afraid of just getting stuck in the ice. Rink owner toned it down for me. Not sure what he took it to.
Rink owner is a 7/16 kind of guy. Wanted me to try it. Tried it. No bueno. Too grippy.
Back to 1/2. For my plus-size pre-bronze self on coronation ace blades, it works.
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In what I tried of patch, I couldn't glide long enough. No doubt my pushes aren't strong enough, and my balance isn't good enough, to glide forever. But flatter blades (longer rocker and hollow radius) than I used should let you glide longer.
But why are patch blades thicker?
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But why are patch blades thicker?
I also wonder why hockey blades are thinner (I believe). Is it speed vs. control kinda thing?
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I also wonder why hockey blades are thinner (I believe). Is it speed vs. control kinda thing?
I'm not an expert on this. But here is some speculation:
I'd be willing to bet the biggest reasons is weight. Good hockey players sprint up to speed very quickly, and they take a lot of strokes doing so, so the energy required to lift the leg (and the boot with it) might be more important. In professional hockey, players often only stay on the ice about 45 seconds or so, because sprinting literally tires them out that fast. So every little fractional ounce matters. You see this in the boots too - modern hockey skates are very light, compared to most figure skates. That said, hockey players wear heavy padding.
Thinner blades seem to be faster. I can't tell you why, but speed skating blades are very thin.
It might have something to do with durability. I think figure skating blades are expected to last a lot longer than hockey blades, because hockey sharpeners remove a lot more metal with each sharpening, to get rid of nicks, and because many hockey players sharpen blades once/game or more - though that isn't universal. But there may be something wrong with my theory here - if you watch aggressive hockey play, they put extraordinary sideways stress on blades, especially when they stop and change directions. You might think that would mean they would need stronger and therefore thicker blades... OTOH, hockey blades are shorter, so that reduces the stress somewhat, whereas the toe picks on figure blades have more of a lever arm to increase the torsional stress.
It used to be true (and still is in school figures = "patch") that figure skating judges would look at the ice tracings in detail. A thicker blade should make required edge changes a little bit more obvious. But I don't know how much that usually matters, especially outside school figures.
A thinner blade can change edges a more quickly. I believe that is one of the main reasons ice dance blades are ground a bit thinner than freestyle blades - there are a lot of fast edge changes in ice dance. Aggressive hockey play also involves very rapid edge changes, as part of direction changing.