skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: Bill_S on November 27, 2019, 05:44:04 PM
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This will be a thread about the comparison between two John Wilson blades, the Pattern 99 and the Gold Seal. The purpose is to highlight differences between these two blades, and is not a contest to find the best one. I will skate on both of them in the coming weeks and report on my own impressions. Keep in mind that my skating skills and style may be different from yours, so I'm finding what works best for me. What works best for you may be different.
I purchased the Pattern 99 blades from the Ohio State University ice rink in Columbus, Ohio. They are new, fresh from the box.
I purchased the Gold Seal blades from an individual on eBay for a very reasonable $200. The ad stated that they were worn three times and sharpened once. While that may be mis-remembered a bit, they are in exceptional condition without even cosmetic skate guard chaffing along the sides. They look new, with the exception of some screw marks when they were mounted and an engraving (pro-shop?) on the right sole plate. I believe I got a great deal on this expensive blade.
Pattern 99:
I'll start with the Pattern 99, and describe its features, with pictures.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/pattern_99/pattern_99_blades-5-800px.jpg)
These blades, like all MK and Wilson blades I've purchased over the years, have a rubbery substance protecting their factory edges. The material is saturated with oil to prevent corrosion, so it can get a little messy on the fingers.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/pattern_99/pattern_99_blades-26-800px.jpg)
Unpacked and cleaned up, here is what a Pattern 99 blade looks like...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/pattern_99/pattern_99_blades-89-800px.jpg)
It's a flat-sided blade unlike the Gold Seal shown later in this comparison. Hand-sharpening tools, like the Pro-Filer, that ride on the sides of the blade will work well.
The markings that identify the blade are in a subdued tan color. I much prefer this to the distracting jet-black used for some blade logos and markings.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/pattern_99/pattern_99_blades-76-800px.jpg)
The straight-cut Pattern 99 toe picks are very distinctive. The top pick is large and has chiseled sides. This is substantially different from the Gold Seal picks.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/pattern_99/pattern_99_blades-69-800px.jpg) (http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/pattern_99/pattern_99_blades-97-800px.jpg)
Out of the box, the blade edges were quite sharp and could be skated upon without further work. While the front of the blades had level edges, I did find that the sharpening at the rear had slightly uneven edges on both blades.
Front:
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/pattern_99/pattern_99_blades-37-800px.jpg)
Rear:
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/pattern_99/pattern_99_blades-42-800px.jpg)
This is not major, but is a bit unexpected. When they need sharpening, I'll take care of that. In the meantime, I'll skate on them because it's not that severe.
The radius of hollow (ROH) from the factory was 7/16"...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/pattern_99/pattern_99_blades-32-800px.jpg)
[continued next post]
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Wilson Gold Seal:
The Wilson Gold Seal blade have a substantially higher list price. The reason is obviously because of the extra machining required for a side-honed runner plus a tapered blade. The front of the blade at the edge is slightly wider than the rear - 0.149 front, 0.135 back.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/gold_seal_blades-22-800px.jpg)
While it's a bit difficult to show side honing in a photo, this is my best attempt at how it looks on the side of the blade...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/gold_seal_blades-26-800px.jpg)
The "scooped out" area on the side represents an extra machining operation compared to the flat-sided Pattern 99. That would increase manufacturing cost. Its purpose is to provide a more aggressive edge for a deeper bite in the ice.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/side_hone_illust.gif)
Keep in mind that more bite might also produce higher friction, slowing the skater. But if you need grip on wonky landings, etc., it might be a worthwhile trade-off.
The toe picks are very similar to the Wilson Coronation Ace, with a prominent drag pick and top pick, but smaller middle picks. It has smaller but more numerous middle picks compared to the Ace. The middle picks are cross-cut, unlike the straight-cut picks on the Pattern 99.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/gold_seal_blades-35-800px.jpg)
Like the Pattern 99, the lettering on the side is a subtle tan color. Understated.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/gold_seal_blades-44-800px.jpg)
All Wilson blades I have seen these past couple of months have drop-dead gorgeous fit and finish. The brazing has very generous, perfectly formed fillets for strength, as you can see in the photos above and below.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/gold_seal_blades-50-800px.jpg)
These blades had been sharpened by someone after they left the factory. I checked for level edges, and that aspect was good. I couldn't use the reference piece of my blade level checker (see previous post) because the curved blade sides provided no flat reference surface for it to stick to. I used a very small square to press against the stanchions and sight along its top edge to the other half of the Wissota edge level checking kit. I saw an even slit of daylight on both the front and the back of the blades, so the sharpening was done evenly.
However, the blades had a very dull edge, of a different hue, as if the sharpener didn't grind deep enough to produce a sharp edge. I fixed that, and I now have sharp, level edges.
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(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/gold_seal_blades-6-800px.jpg)
Digging into the comparison
Blade weight
Gold Seal Pattern 99
370 grams 360 grams
The small difference surprised me a bit. The mounting plates on the Gold Seal have no central opening, plus the blade is slightly longer. Both are heavier blades compared to my current Eclipse Dance blades which are only 330 grams. Their extra heft in-hand is noticeable.
Stanchion Height
In the list below, I'll include other blades that I have experimented with lately.
Blade Front Rear
Gold Seal 1.832" 1.93"
Pattern 99 1.71" 1.84"
Eclipse
Dance 1.813" 1.953"
Ultima
Dance 1.93" 2.030"
Ace 1.876" 1.881"
MK Pro 1.856" 1.894"
The Pattern 99 has the lowest front stanchion of all the blades in the list. I'm hoping that it doesn't reduce boot clearance excessively when leaning in turns. The Gold Seal is higher in back than the Coronation Ace, another Wilson blade, but slightly lower in front.
Blade Length
These are both 10-1/4" (mounting) length blades, but the length of the blade itself is different. I measured from the root of the drag pick to the tail.
Gold Seal - 11.68"
Pattern 99 - 11.4"
The Pattern 99 is slightly over 1/4" shorter. Some skaters have felt that shorter blades contribute to backward falls, but I actually prefer shorter blades. Different strokes!
The stanchion thickness of the Pattern 99 blades measure around 0.165", and the Gold Seals measure 0.161"
These British blades are almost always around 0.160 or slightly more. Canadian-made Jackson and Eclipse blades are around 0.150" or slightly more. Curious.
The edge thickness of the Pattern 99 blades is around 0.162". The Gold Seals, being tapered blades, are 0.149" at the front, 0.141" in the middle, and 0.135" at the tail. The side honing and tapering reduce blade thickness, but not to the extent of a dance blade (typ. 0.125"). I'm curious to see how tapering and side-honing affect the on-ice feel.
The traced rocker profiles of both blades are extremely similar. Even though the Gold Seals have been sharpened at least twice (possibly 4 times), they practically match the Pattern 99 blades along the entire shared length. You can see how the Pattern 99 blades are shorter in the tracing.
[click to make bigger]
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/pattern_99/pattern_99_gold_seal_tracing_comp.gif)
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Awesome Bill!!!!
Excited to see the graphs. Surprising that the profiles are so very consistent. I wasn't expecting that. Except they're both Wilson, so maybe it's not that surprising.
Also, how to those rocker tracings line up against the CorAce and Prof? Those are both 8ft rockers, as I recall, so I'd be mostly curious to see 1) how that actually looks along the length of the blade, and 2) the spin rockers. I am VERY curious to see how the spin rockers differ (especially with the Wilson CorAce).
Again, thanks for all the work you're putting into this!
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I have those comparisons to show, but the advertised rockers for MK Professional and Coronation Ace blades are 7", not 8'. That will be apparent in the illustrations below.
I also included a comparison with my old 10-1/2" worn down Aces from 2007. I perform well and spin best on them, probably from long-term familiarity. Their rocker has been flattened from 12 years of usage, plus they started out a different shape than the new Ace that I purchased recently.
Here goes, with the first comparison between new Coronation Aces and the Gold Seal blade. The difference between the 8' rocker of the Gold Seal vs. the 7' rocker of the Ace is apparent. I also see the pronounced forward "hump" at the spin rocker that I didn't adapt to. The "hump" is a design or manufacturing change from when I purchased Aces back in 2007. I still had tracings for it from when it was new that showed a different shape in the spin rocker. I detailed that difference in the Comparison between MK Pro vs. Ace thread http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8417.0 (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8417.0)
[click any picture to make it bigger]
Comparing the Gold Seal to a new Coronation Ace...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/blade_tracing_gold_seal_vs_ace_crop_label.gif)
Comparing the Gold Seal to the MK Professional, on which I was able to spin OK...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/blade_tracing_gold_seal_vs_mkpro_crop.gif)
And the Gold Seal compared to my old, beloved Aces, on which I can spin well...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/blade_tracing_gold_seal_vs_old_ace_crop.gif)
Please note that the size of blades between individual illustrations in not fixed to a particular scale.
Given the similarity between the Gold Seal vs my well-worn Ace rockers, I should feel at home on them. Because the Pattern 99 is so close to the Gold Seal rocker, I predict that I'll like it too.
The illustrations don't show all the detail in the full 400-dpi scan that I have here (too big for internet web graphics), so I do see a half pencil-line difference in a couple of places between the old Ace curve and the Gold Seal curve. I hope that isn't significant.
Oh, the Gold Seals are LONG blades as seen in the comparisons above, even longer than my old 10-1/2" Aces. With the exception of my old Aces, the other blades are all 10-1/4" mounting length.
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BTW, the tracings above are simply made by cutting a sheet of paper diagonally, and holding the blade down against the paper for tracing.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/tracing_gold_seal_blade-5-800px.jpg)
I scan them on a flat bed scanner at 400 pixels/inch, and then take them into Photoshop where I rotate the scan and combine it with others to compare.
I've been tracing my own blades since 2007, and have kept the original tracings in a cabinet. They have come in handy for comparing a worn blade to its former self, as well as other purposes.
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The day is getting late and I still want to mount one of these blades for skating tomorrow morning. I intend to compare the left and right Gold Seal blades to see if sharpenings have them asymmetrical, but that will have to wait.
For now, here are Gold Seal and Pattern 99 measurements using this sliding fixture. I have included details about it in other threads here.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/pattern_99/measuring_rocker_indicator-11-Edit-800px.jpg)
The underside of the blade plates are pressed against the mounting block, so any differences between front and rear stanchion heights will rotate the curves in the graph. The rocker shape between two blades could be identical, but with different stanchions, the graph will be different.
[click graph to make bigger to read the legend]
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/graph_rocker_gold_seal_p99.gif)
I'm please that the new spin rockers are a smoother transition than the new Coronation Ace blade, but now I'm wondering how I'll adapt to the differences in stanchion height. Skating will tell.
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I mounted the Gold Seals for skating tomorrow morning. With that done, I plotted the both left and right Gold Seal blades to compare them.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/graph_rocker_gold_seals_both.gif)
Hmm. The difference looks like a rotated graph caused by different stanchion heights. Measuring both of them, the front stanchions are the same, but the rear stanchions differ by 0.017". That would account for most of the mismatch. I doubt that this was caused by a sharpening because it's a fairly big change. It would have taken a LOT of passes on the sharpener to make that much difference. (Generally a sharpening session, done with a number of light passes, removes 0.003" to 0.004" of metal).
It's possible that I'm looking at a variation in manufacturing.
I'm not too worried about it. The thickness of a sock at the heel is roughly the difference, so it shouldn't matter much. I'll just pick a sock with a hole in the heel for the right blade with the taller stanchion. ;)
I should get back into the shop and measure the other Pattern 99 blade too, but not tonight. I'm bushed.
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I'm sure you know better than I do, but my first thought is definitely that the difference is due to sharpening, because it's the left blade that's shorter (most people are right handed and spinning on their left foot). But, you get what you get when you get a deal on used blades.
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I would have thought so too, except that the front stanchion height is the same on both blades. Most sharpenings take the approximately the same amount from the front and the back of the blade. Besides, if someone is spinning, it's going to be under the front stanchion where the most wear would accumulate.
But we'll never know for certain.
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Thanks for posting the profile comparisons! I was curious to see what 8' looked like compared to 7', but also how the spin rockers compared. The beginner blades are so much curvier at the sweetspot. Very interesting. I was predicting that the CorAce would have the same spin rocker, just get curvier along the length of the blade.
You gonna do the MK line next? Right after the money tree starts blooming in your yard, eh?
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Don't forget that one of the differences between the Ace shown in the top tracing and the other two Aces that I've owned is a pronounced curve at the spin rocker. That wasn't there in the two earlier samples I had between 2000 and 2007. Those old Aces were more like the MK Pro.
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Gold Seal Skating Impressions, Day 1:
I spent 1-1/2 hours on the blades this morning. I was curious to see if the side-honed and tapered blade would feel different. It did. I felt it mostly in edge changes. Changing from a flat to an edge, or from one edge to the other felt "boosted" or assisted somehow. Perhaps it's a change of drag manifesting itself. Edges felt like they had less drag than on a flat - I think. Anyway, it was different from all the straight sided, constant thickness blades that I've been on until now. It wasn't a gigantic difference, but I felt it. It took a little while to get used to it.
The taller heel stanchion was apparent today. I felt it, but it didn't cause much difficulty.
I can spin on these blades. I had trouble with traveling, but I can hook the LFO edge into a spin nicely, just like my old Aces (not the new ones) and the new MK Pros that I have used lately. It wasn't hard to get up to 8-10 revs before I felt the spin deteriorating. Some were fast. The photo below shows a typical spin from this morning, traveling and all...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/tracings_spin_11-29-2019-5-800px.jpg)
I still have work to do to reduce traveling, but at least I'm getting revolutions.
One thing that was immediately apparent was the NOISE that these blades made. In just about any move where you put a little power or lean into them, they crunch, rip, and growl unlike any blade that I've been on. If judges need to hear a rip in, say, power-pulls, these will make you job easier. Just doing some fast alternating forward inside edges, doing about 8' radius lobes down the ice, I recorded the racket in a short sound clip.
[sound clip link] --> http://www.afterness.com/skating/audio/edges_rip_gold_seals.mp3 (http://www.afterness.com/skating/audio/edges_rip_gold_seals.mp3)
(Note that the wind noise is not me breathing into the phone, but is from the breeze as I traveled down the rink with the phone in my extended arm. )
If you want growling edges, this blade makes them without trying hard.
By the end of the session, I was comfortable doing all threes, some brackets, and counters. I can still do twizzles better using my old Aces than these, but I'm sure that will get better with familiarity.
Beside the constant growling, there were no bad habits exhibited by these blades. I'll blame the traveling spins on myself. I could see myself adapting to them for long term usage. Skating on them resembled meeting an old friend that I haven't seen in a while. Familiar, but with a little catching-up to do.
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I almost forgot - the long tails were noticeable. I managed a couple metal-on-metal "clicks" because the tails stick out so far.
I also felt them drag/snag on the ice as I did some sloppy three-turns from back to front while performing some unremembered moves today. I prefer somewhat shorter tails.
Personal preference, of course. YMMV
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I couldn't use the reference piece of my blade level checker (see previous post) because the curved blade sides provided no flat reference surface for it to stick to. I used a very small square to press against the stanchions and sight along its top edge to the other half of the Wissota edge level checking kit.
I don't know your tool, but maybe you can check that by measuring both sides, and seeing whether the deviation is the same. Likewise you should see the same amount and shape of daylight on both sides using the square.
Could you use a micrometer to determine how much side honing actually occurs? And whether it is symmetrical on both sides of the blade?
I'm not smart enough to know what tool is needed to see if the plating thickness, and the thickness of the chrome relief removal, are symmetric - which Mike C said sometimes isn't true. What tool would you use if you wanted to do that?
Does the side honing appear to be cylindrically shaped, like the hollow on the bottom of blades? That would make them "hollow ground" in knife lingo.
In theory, that type of side honing slightly increases the effective sharpness for a given ROH, by reducing the edge angle. If the thickness removal is as small as I've been told for some blades - on the order of .001 or .002" (though Mike C said that one model had about .007" if I remember right) - I don't understand how it has made such a difference as you have seen.
A potential problem is that if you don't remove the same amount of metal along the whole length when you sharpen, you could modulate the blade thickness and edge angle in a complex difficult-too-compensate-for fashion.
In any event your pictures answer a question I've had - the side honing affects the entire side of the runner, not just what Sid Broadbent calls the "chrome relief facet", so I think you would need to pad a Pro-Filer sharpener (e.g., with foam tape) to make it work - if there is room in the gap for such tape.
A tapered shape seems a lot like the streamlining of a raindrop. It should make the blade marginally faster, though I'm not sure if it is enough of a difference to notice. Unless it is too much of a difference, creating MORE drag.
The problem is that these are uncontrolled experiments, with many variables altered at once, and that there is no objective way to measure the change on how you skate, even if you could control it. You can't really tell how much the variation of each shape parameters affects your skating. In a USFSA sponsored study, Broadbent did once try to measure characteristics over the ice by fixing the blades or skates on a rotating machine, with some sort of sensors attached, but figure skating is obviously more complicated than that.
BTW, Mike C once told me that all the high end MK blades had the same profile shape at the factory, to the extent that they were consistent, but other people have said differently. Also, that was some time ago, and might be out of date.
I'm always amazed by just how similar the models of figure skate blade are. Even though the tricks figure skaters have used have evolved a lot over time, as have the boots, it seems like blade makers got it "right" pretty early on. Also that, somehow, incredibly small changes substantially affect how a blade feels. Which just makes it obvious how much harm a poorly trained skate tech, or one in a hurry, can do. (I'm not including you in that category.)
Why would they make more noise? Do you think it is the tapering? And why would it do that? I don't get the physics.
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In theory, that type of side honing slightly increases the effective sharpness for a given ROH, by reducing the edge angle. If the thickness removal is as small as I've been told for some blades - on the order of .001 or .002" (though Mike C said that one model had about .007" if I remember right) - I don't understand how it has made such a difference as you have seen.
I made some photos and a measurement to characterize the hollow. It's much more than 0.007" deep. To give you an idea, I held a straight edge against the side honing to get a visual feel for it...
[click pictures to enlarge]
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/measuring_side_hone-2-800px.jpg)
Then I rummaged around looking for something with which to measure it. The closest that I have is a depth micrometer, but it has a 1/8" diameter probe that is flat on the bottom, so the actual depth is more than indicated in the photo below. The probe's end would span part of the recess, and not reach completely to the low point.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/measuring_side_hone-18-800px.jpg)
I'd need a point or a round-end probe for a more accurate measurement, but since it shows 0.011" deep, you can safely assume that it's a bit deeper than that.
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In my last post, there was a photo that raised some questions. Here's a crop from that photo above...
[click photo to make bigger]
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/measuring_side_hone-2-crop800px.jpg)
It looks something like this, with the common chrome relief producing standard straight edges to the ice.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/gold_seal/side_hone_chrome_relief.gif)
Judging from this close-up photo, the side-honing is contributing nothing at all to the edge. The chrome relief was ground after side honing, and it appears that its side is perfectly parallel like any other blade. However, the tapered blade thickness along the blade length remains real.
Could it be that side-honing, if it doesn't reach the skating edge, is mostly a marketing ploy?
I wish that I could ask a Wilson engineer about this.
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Judging from this close-up, the side-honing is contributing nothing at all to the edge. The chrome relief was ground after side honing, and it appears that its side is perfectly parallel like any other blade. The taper along the blade length remains.
Could it be that side-honing, if it doesn't reach the skating edge, is mostly a marketing ploy?
I wish that I could ask a Wilson engineer about this.
As Wolfgang would say, "V-e-r-y interesting." Yet, you felt and heard a difference. Placebo effect?
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Perhaps it can all be attributed to the tapered blade, which is a real, measurable difference compared to my past blades.
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IIRC, side honing was intended to lighten the blade more than anything else. I might be thinking of "parabolic" blades, though. At the time, my snarky self felt it was a way to save on raw materials and charge more for a "feature."
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IIRC, side honing was intended to lighten the blade more than anything else. I might be thinking of "parabolic" blades, though. At the time, my snarky self felt it was a way to save on raw materials and charge more for a "feature."
No, light weight is not a feature of the Gold Seal; on the contrary, it has solid sole plates, adding to weight. The side honing ostensibly is to alter the edge angles, giving more bite. Parabolic profile provides more bite near the toe and near the tail, and more glide near the center. There's no savings in raw material because they start with a uniformly thick sheet, and then grind away material to form the contours. Bill's results are indeed bizarre: all that sophisticated side honing, just to screw it up with the chrome relief. Next time I'm at a pro shop, I'll need to take a closer look. The Eclipse Pinnacle (comparable to Gold Seal) also has concave side honing. It'll be interesting to see whether they also negate the benefits by screwing up the chrome relief.
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The Eclipse Pinnacle, made from carbon steel, does have a relief. From their literature copy online " A side-honed runner and chrome free rakes bite into the ice..."
A side-honed stainless steel blade would not require a chrome relief. The more expensive Titanium Pinnacle with stainless runner is NOT side honed. That's the one that could have a side hone that actually provided more bite.
But I'm thinking just a smaller ROH would do the same.
I did do a quick and dirty approximation about how much weight would be saved per blade due to having both sides honed. I roughly calculated 0.06 lb, or 27 grams. That's a bit more than I expected. They could have saved even more if they have opened the sole plate in the center like almost every other blade on earth.
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Gold Seal Skating Impressions, Day 2:
I'm feeling completely at home on these blades now. I suspect that it's because of the similarity to the rocker of my old Ace blades. I still travel in spins though, so I'll have to keep working on that.
However, there were a couple of times when I entered a spin with a wonky attitude or with a blade skid, and was sure that I'd step out. But I didn't. I find spin entry very forgiving.
I am skidding a bit on spin entries, so I'm going down to a 3/8" ROH for a little more bite. It makes sense because these blades are thinner than my old Aces.
I might shorten Gold Seal testing a bit, and perhaps try the Pattern 99 blades early next week. There are few surprises or differences left to overcome, so it's time to move to the (hopefully) last blade in my testing before decision time.
Since September, I've skated on:
Old 2007 Coronation Aces
New Coronation Aces with a different spin rocker shape [http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8417.0 (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8417.0)]
MK Professionals [http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8417.0 (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8417.0)]
Ultima Protege [http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8431.0 (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8431.0)]
Eclipse Dance [http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8454.0 (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8454.0)]
Gold Seals
...and soon the Pattern 99s.
And I have measured Ultima Dance http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8447.0 (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8447.0) and Ultima Synchro blades, but not skated in them.
The journey's been enlightening.
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At this point, I wonder how you will ever be able to narrow your choices to two?
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Maybe dice. ;D
So far, in order of preference, I like the Gold Seal, the MK Professional, and the Eclipse Dance (if I don't have to spin in them).
If I do get into proper dance lessons, the order will certainly change. Having that short blade will be worth its weight in gold when skating with a partner.
Of course I still have the Pattern 99 to try. It has a somewhat shorter tail than the Gold Seal, and nearly the same rocker.
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Gold Seal Skating Impressions, Day 3:
This wasn't my best skating day for some reason. I felt rough and "thrashy" on the ice today. I pushed myself rather hard yesterday, so I suspect it was a case of stiff legs that caused me to skate less well. I did take an aspirin before I skated just to keep the aches away.
The blades performed well, and spins revolved. There were a couple spins that had improved centering. That made me happy. Only one fall on an attempted jump. My timing was very poor for that attempt.
I'm going to keep these blades on for another day or two before I switch off to the Pattern 99 blades. I couldn't fairly test them today.
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Gold Seal Skating Impressions, Day 4:
I believe that I need to slightly reposition the left blade. It's mounted too far to the outside, and if I skid, it's generally on a left outside edge. LBO threes are a bit more difficult too - at least I don't think that it's just me. That's my worst three-turn.
Even though the mounting position is not optimum, I have no way to do a minor adjustment easily. I'm using my old boots for mounting and testing all these blades, and the bottom is absolutely riddled with screw holes now. When I get my new boots going, I can fiddle with things like position much more easily, then place the permanent screws.
For now, it's a slight problem that I'll just deal with. It's all part of testing.
I had OK scratch spins today, fast stroking, good threes in all directions with the exception of an occasional scratchy LBO three. No unwanted surprises at all.
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I believe that I need to slightly reposition the left blade. It's mounted too far to the outside, and if I skid, it's generally on a left outside edge. LBO threes are a bit more difficult too - at least I don't think that it's just me. That's my worst three-turn.
Even though the mounting position is not optimum, I have no way to do a minor adjustment easily.
A small lateral shift produces essentially the same effect as putting a line of tape under the insole.
(A big lateral shift is somewhat different, because it affects your spin axis.)
But maybe you don't want to tape the insole, because you may want to remove it for the next blades. I've been known to put a strip of newspaper, or other material, under one side.
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I'm deeply puzzled by your measurements that say side-honing has no effect whatsoever on the edges.
However, it is somewhat consistent with the fact that either MK or Wilson at least once claimed that some of their blades were both parabolic and tapered, which didn't sound physically possible to me. If they don't require the modifications to have a significant effect on skating, it's easy - just apply it to different parts of the blade.
How certain are you of your measurements? I'm going to email Mike C to see if he ever took a similar measurement.
If anyone else feels comfortable asking a top notch skate tech about this issue, that would be great.
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I measured both left and right Pattern 99 blades, brand-new with the factory sharpening.
There was enough difference showing between the left and right blades that I set up the measuring fixture again and ran a second of numbers. It confirmed the previous measurements that left and right blades are slightly different by about 1/32" across most of the rocker. The plot below shows all four sets of data. I was pleased with the repeatability of the humbly constructed measuring rig.
[click to enlarge]
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/pattern_99/graph_pattern99_2_measurements.gif)
In this graph, the rocker's vertical scale is expanded. The left side represents the toe pick root. Different stanchion heights rotate the rocker in the graph, just as they do mounted to the boot.
The right blade shows a little glitch at the 9.5" mark back from the root of the drag pick in both measurements. I'll have to check into that, but it should be mostly removed by the first sharpening that I give it.
In metalworking, 1/32" deviation is considered a lot. However, it remains to be seen if it makes a persistent difference in skating feel.
I didn't get a chance to mount these today because of life's obligations, but I will soon.
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Wow, how many regular sharpenings would it take on the one to make them even? That would annoy me, even if I couldn't feel it.
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It would take about 10 sharpenings, but you would be about 1/4 of the way through the chrome relief depth by then.
I'm beginning to believe that each pair of blades had its own personality, and you just have to get used to them. In many ways, it's like learning to live with a spouse.
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I'm wondering, Bill, how it feels to go from the Pattern 99s and Gold Seal to the Eclipse Dance blades? I know that sometimes when people have been skating in dance blades for a long time going back to a freestyle blade feels like skis.
Is that your experience?
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I'd say that the "going to skis" is exaggerated, but remember I was on dance blades for only a couple weeks. You can feel the difference though.
On the first or second day of going back to freestyle blades I clicked the blade tails together. I think that happened just doing a Mohawk. Additionally, I'm now very cautious when doing backward cross strokes. The fear of "tangling tails" has always been there performing cross stokes. Perhaps it's something subconsciously remembered from a past incident? When using the extra-long Gold Seal blades, I did them carefully and mentally rehearsed reactions to any backward fall. By comparison, I could do them with abandon on the dance blades.
Sometimes doing "quick-n-sloppy" threes when my weight wasn't over the correct spot, I felt the tail scrape snow as I turn from backward to forward. So far, I haven't snagged the tail hard enough to cause a fall, but it's a matter of time.
I didn't use the dance blades skating with a partner. That's another place where short blades are worth their weight in gold.
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It would be interesting to hear your comments on going back and forth between any brand of free style or dance blades and hockey blades. There are kids (and at least one coach) at my rink that can go seamlessly back and forth between free style blades and/or synchro blades, used for practice sessions for up coming competitions and then go play hockey with their high school team. I, on the other hand, was a nervous Nelly just attempting to go back to my previous Jacksons with similar blades (Aspires) which I kept for pond skating and my new Jacksons (same boot) which initially had whatever the Aspire blade evolved to, both of those blades have 8' radii; (I now skate on Ultima Eclipse, 7 foot radius blades). Anyway, back when I was swapping between new and old equipment it would take me at least 20 minutes of skating before I felt comfortably trying anything beyond forward stroking. Kids! Bah! They make me green with envy.
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Frankly, I haven't had much trouble switching. There are differences, but it affects more advanced skills like three-turns - particularly switching between 7 and 8 foot rockers. Forward and backward stroking, doing Mohawks and simpler moves aren't causing any problem at all. In a couple of laps, I could skate at full speed regardless of blade. For me, spins are the biggest difference between blades. I just didn't adapt to some spin rockers in the week or two of testing of these blades.
Getting the blade in the same position, as much as possible, is important. That's why I marked lines on my soles and heels to guide blade placement when switching. The Gold Seal's solid plate didn't allow following the line. It got covered up by the plate. In addition, existing mounting holes made it difficult to position exactly where I want to the blade to be. That's why I'm doing some slight skidding on the LO edge with these blades. For a week, I'll put up with the slightly off mounting.
Here's a photo showing the marking of the blade position on the sole before I removed the old Coronation Ace blade. The heel got the same treatment. (The marking hand is temporarily holding the camera here! :))
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blade_change_ace-17-800px.jpg)
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One more thing - I was talking with one of the coaches here who has two pairs of boots. She recalls that when the blades got switched on one pair, she could barely tell the difference.
If you are feeling a big difference, I'd check blade mounting position.
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The measured mismatch between the left and right Pattern 99 blades troubled me. This is especially true since the stanchion height between the two blades matched. I couldn't imagine how stanchions could be the same, but the rocker placement on the graph was so different.
I also looked at the Gold Seal plots, then the Eclipse. In each case where I measured both blades, the left blade was positioned higher in the graph than the right. That seemed to be more than coincidence.
[click to enlarge any picture]
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/pattern_99/graph_l_vs_right_blades.gif)
The big AHA!
Then I had an AHA! moment last night in bed. It occurred to me that the Pattern 99, Gold Seal, and Eclipse blades have left and right sole plates. They are not symmetrical plates like the Jackson Ultima blades that I had previously reviewed.
Asymmetrical Pattern 99 sole plate (left side)...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/pattern_99/pattern_99_blades-84-800px.jpg)
The difference in the left and right plates made a difference how the blades registered against the measurement jig. Here's a shot showing a right sole plate registered against the back of the jig, and where it touches the upright. A left plate would have the large lobe down, touching at the blue line.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/pattern_99/blade_measurement_jig_registration-6-text_800px.jpg)
I sketched in some lines showing where the sole plate would touch, and where the other half would touch. Because skate blades are not co-planar (grumble), the plates are mounted at angles. That means that the touch point will change depending on whether the left or right plate is mounted.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/pattern_99/skate_blade_jig_registration.gif)
I think that's the problem. I'll have to think about another registration scheme that removes this left vs. right variation.
The upshot is that the curves still represent rockers accurately, but where they are placed on the graph varies.
It's time for more head scratching and more shop work to modify the jig. I'll try to re-measure the Eclipse Dance, Gold Seal, and Pattern 99 blades afterward. I doubt that I'll go back to do all blades because that would be a solid week's worth of labor. It takes several hours to measure, input numbers, and plot the results for each pair of blades, and frankly, I want to settle on a pair or two and just skate.
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Is it possible (I'm not sure) that the centers of the stanchions are supposed to bear the most weight, structurally, and should therefore lie more or less under the ball and heel of the foot, so those are the logical control points to match?
One could use the drag pick as a control point, but toe picks vary a lot by model in size and placement, so I don't think that is a great idea. Likewise, mounting hole positions, and end of the tail, also vary a lot.
(I thought about writing an automated program to take an optical scan of a blade and derive a list of rocker and toe pick characteristics for comparison, but I couldn't figure out a good way to derive such control points. Also, scanners don't always have accurate or consistent positioning, and they mess things up by using a colored mask combined with complex proprietary processing to derive the final image, and I'm not sure they have high enough resolution to get good rocker radii and sweet spot over short distances. With a little work I could do some noise reduction, Fourier domain interpolation, then edge enhancement & detection, with sub-pixel position estimation [ignore those words if they don't make any sense to you], but that too might would need to vary a bit by scanner characteristics. Also, an optical scan makes a mess of cross-picks, which are quite common. BTW, side honing, etc. would be essentially impossible to pick up, especially if I didn't want to scratch the scanner glass. Still, it would be cool if we could all scan our blades and enter them into a database.)
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Is it possible (I'm not sure) that the centers of the stanchions are supposed to bear the most weight, structurally, and should therefore lie more or less under the ball and heel of the foot, so those are the logical control points to match?
Agreed, but even then blade variability will come into play. The most obvious would be measuring blades of different sizes, although I've mostly settled on 10-1/4" to match my new boots. Also, the stanchion placement varies among manufacturers and blade type, so that's another issue. Finally, some stanchions are angled, so determining the center of it would be messy.
But thanks for the ideas.
If blades were co-planar, a LOT of difficulties like this would vanish, and blades could be made cheaper, with more precision. We're stuck with an ancient model of how blades should attach to walking boots.
Keep the ideas coming.
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I believe that I have a plan to make the jig accommodate asymmetrical left vs. right blade mounting plates. It's going to take a bit of work, so I'll put it on the list as a future project. I had to think about how to do it evenly, plus not make it difficult to mount a blade on the jig.
I mounted the Pattern 99 blades today. Here's what the boot bottom looked like before I mounted the Pattern 99 blades. Lots of holes!
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/boots_holes_testing-3-800px.jpg) (http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/boots_holes_testing-6-800px.jpg)
Thankfully, I could re-use some mounting holes from another blade - perhaps the Ace tested a couple months ago. That spared my poor test boots being drilled once again. The blade alignment was right on the money using the inked blade location marks from my old Coronation Ace blades...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/boot_blade_alignment-4-800px.jpg)
I plan for a trial tomorrow morning. I'm on the factory sharpening to give it a whirl first. The edges are a smidge uneven, but I want to see if I can tell a difference after I sharpen them later.
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Pattern 99 Skating Impressions, Day 1:
Hmm. I don't know what to think. These blades have "personality". They do feel substantially different from the Gold Seals that I've been on for the past week.
Quietness: There's a BIG difference in ice rip between the Gold Seals and these blades. I enjoyed the stealthy quietness of these blades. The Gold Seals were growling with even minor applications of power or a modest edge. It took more oomph to get these (and frankly, any other flat-side blade) to make the ripping sound. I can still do it, but it takes a stronger effort. Personally, I like the quietness of the Pattern 99.
Forward stroking and crossovers: Mild stroking produced no major difference in feel. However when I put more power into an extended push-under on crossovers, the push-under skate tended to steer itself away on the push. Because it was gliding away quicker, I couldn't push as hard as I could with the Gold Seals until I adjusted the push. If I angled my skate to make it feel like I was pushing with my heel on the cross-under, I could steer it inward to have something to push against. I found this a bit off-putting, and I don't know if it was because of the stanchion height difference (medium rear + low front stanchion) or because of the contrast between these and the tapered blade of the Gold Seal. I can see how the GS taper could influence skate direction when on one edge, and I had been adapting to them for a week. The net result is that I didn't feel that power stroking was as natural as on the GS blades.
Backward stroking and crossovers: Stroking in backwards patterns felt more familiar than in forward patterns. I had no trouble here, except that I scratched the toe picks a couple of times. It seems to be easier to do with these blades. It was easy to put power down as long as you didn't scrub it off with pick scratching. I think I could adapt to the feel of these going backwards very easily once I learn its "personality".
Three turns: Very straightforward and familiar feeling. No major change in feel, and I felt at home here.
Spins: These left me confused. The very first attempt went very well, with about 6 revs but with some travel (my normal nemesis). After the easy initial spin, I thought that adapting to these blades would be a cinch like the Gold Seals on spins. However, I had very mixed results on subsequent spins. I had some decent ones like this...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/practice/tracings_ice_12-6-2019-10-Edit-800px.jpg)
However things went mostly downhill over the session. I couldn't enter the spin sometimes, I couldn't hold the spin at other times. The ice was filled with lots of loops with the exception of a handful of them. I got frustrated trying.
Other: I didn't have any trouble with the low front stanchion limiting deep-edge turns. I didn't push them to the limit though, but in normal skating it shouldn't be an issue. Here's a photo of a medium-aggressive hockey turn with the Pattern 99s. It kicked snow about 4 inches outside of the tracing. I can live with that amount of lean in everyday skating. I was pleased that I didn't boot-out at this level of turn, so it's adequate.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/practice/tracings_ice_12-6-2019-2-Edit-800px.jpg)
I did some forward inside brackets. They felt good like before. The RFI bracket, my best, could be done at speed easily without any blade issue.
I attempted a couple of miserable attempts at a toe loop, but I'm jumping very little anymore. I've become a lousy jumper. My attempts were just plain ugly, stabbing, toe-waltzes. That's completely my bad. It's too bad that I didn't get to test all these blades when I was younger and a jumper.
Wrap-up, Day 1: This morning, the push-under glide-away on stroking, and the trouble with establishing/holding spins frustrated me. I am left with the question of "Should I live with these long term?" I'm sure that I'd adapt over time, but is it worth learning this "new language"? However, as they say, YMMV,
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Pattern 99 Skating Impressions, Day 2:
Well, well, well, I was able to spin on these today. Perhaps Friday was just one of those "off" days where the harder I tried, the worse I got. Spins were decent today, with some nicely centered spins in the mix. I didn't spin for more than ~8 revs max though, so that aspect still needs work. The GS blade is still easier to spin in, for me.
The skate glide-away when trying to do strong under-pushes on crossovers is still a bit unsettling. The skate just steers away leaving nothing to push against. Getting a workout with strong pushes during crossovers is something that I am good at - until now. As the session wore on, I was better able to do pushes in the CCW direction, but the CW remained a bit frustrating. I could bend my knees more to help, and I could pretend that I was pushing with my heel which helped too. But it requires conscious effort. I don't want to think about technique doing basic things.
Threes remained straightforward to do without any trouble. I noticed that my traveling threes were easier to do on these blades than on the GS blades. It required less "three-turn pumping" and the smoother turns more resembled a twizzle.
The blades feel "slippery" on the ice, and I'm trying to understand why. It could be that when I'm gliding with light stroking and crossovers, that I'm further back on the blade where the rocker is flatter. I would hope that I'm on the rear-center part of any blade, and not on the spin rocker with any of them. The rocker is close to that of the GS, but these blades feel faster. I probably should mount my old Aces, another flat-side blade worn to about the same rocker, to re-calibrate my perceptions.
So today went better, but these still have a "personality" to master. I was ready to un-mount them this morning before the session and put on something else, but I'm glad that I kept them on. What a difference a day makes.
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Pattern 99 Skating Impressions, Day 3:
I have mostly adapted to the push-under glide-away issue on forward crossovers. It is GONE now on CCW crossovers, and I can get a good, strong push-under of the inside foot going that direction...
[fuzzy screen grab from a cell phone video]
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/practice/practice_crossover_left_push.jpg)
The inside foot here is tracking well here and I'm pushing against it nicely as the outside foot starts to cross over. I can get it to rip on even stronger crossovers. So, no problem with CCW crossovers, but there's still a bit of an issue on my weaker direction (CW). But even that direction has improved. There's light at the end of the tunnel, and it's just a matter of adjusting to the blade.
Spins were OK, but nothing to write home about.
I practiced lots of three turns today, especially in the weaker directions. They feel very good very little difference from the Gold Seal blades.
It was a gloomy, rainy Monday, I was tired, my left knee ached, and I was the only person there for the whole time. Even with new blades to experiment with, I was un-motivated to skate beyond 1-1/4 hours.
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The growling Gold Seals: were those with the edge that they were shipped with, or did you re-sharpen them?
The way I see it, growling is composed of short side-skids, which are greatly affected by how sharp the edge is, as well as ice conditions, and your skating technique (which in turn might be affected by the blades, among other things).
I ask about whether you resharpened them, because the precise way in which they are sharpened (how ragged/clean the edge is, how sudden the transition between hollow and side, whether there is a foil edge, it's exact direction, and how long it is...) have a potentially large effect on how sharp the edge effectively is, and whether there are opportunities to have those short skids.
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I resharpened the Gold Seals - twice. The first sharpening at 7/16 ROH was too shallow for their thinner blades. I encountered skidding. I then sharpened them almost to 3/8" to eliminate it.
I think that the sound of a rip is the ice deforming under the blade, not skidding. Skidding makes a higher-pitched sound, and scrapes the ice surface. A rip leaves a jagged channel where the blade tracked through. Think of hockey skate grooves, but it doesn't have to be to that extent.
The tapered blade of the Gold Seal presents a more aggressive edge at the front of the blade where it is thickest, but becomes progressively less aggressive toward the thin rear.
I haven't heard ripping like this on any of the previous blades that I've tested lately, including those that I've power-sharpened (old Aces, Eclipse Dance).
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Pattern 99 Skating Impressions, Day 4:
I'm about 90% used to these blades now. Spins are progressing very nicely. Here's a tracing from this morning...
[click to enlarge]
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/practice/tracings_spin_12-11-2019_pattern99-2-Edit-800px.jpg)
I can say that I have adapted completely to spinning on Pattern 99 blades. I can spin on them as well as on the Gold Seals now. That doesn't surprise me because of the similar rocker. I just had to adapt to the difference in stanchion height, and that has taken 4 days of practice with them.
Stroking and crossovers are very natural now, with the exception of a remaining slight glide-out of the left blade on crossover under-pushes. However it's MUCH better than on Day 1. I'm still 'in therapy' for that.
I continue to feel that the traveling threes down the ice or on a circle seem to be closer to real twizzles using these blades compared to the Gold Seals. There's less three-turn knee "rise and fall" action needed, and they are more continuous and smoother.
It's going to be a close comparison. I could live with either blade.
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Bill, if you have some down time, I'd be interested in sliding window fits of the rocker radius for the P99 and the GS. The P99 would at least be worthwhile since it's factory fresh. From your descriptions so far, though, I have a suspicion that the spin rocker on the GS was flattened by previous sharpenings. Thanks.
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Given time, I'll make an effort. It's one of my least favorite things to do.
If you need answers more quickly and want to calculate your own, I can provide spreadsheets of measurements, which look like this...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/pattern_99/spreadsheet_blade_measurements.gif)
Just let me know.
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I had another couple of days on the Pattern 99 blades, and I am 100% used to them. Spins are going about as well as I can muster, there is no problem left with glide-out of the under-pushing foot, and I feel about like I did on my old 2007 Aces.
I think that I'm ready to choose two blades to mount onto my two new pairs of boots. I believe the Eclipse Dance are going onto the Riedell Fusions. To me, that boot will be the one that I can point my toes in best because of the low-cut back stay, and dance is where that feature will be valued the most.
I'll probably mount the Gold Seals onto the Silver Star boots mostly because of the way that deep edges are more forgiving. The GS blades are thinner, which helps, and I suspect that the taper has a lot to do with it too. With those blades are the max edge angle, the limit arrives in a more controlled manner than all the straight blades that I've used lately. While it's a long blade, longer than the Pattern 99, the extra length of the GS can be dealt with in the shop. I'm going to have to suck it up and live with the extra noise that blade makes.
That's my current thinking right now. I have been known to change my mind though! ;D
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While it's a long blade, longer than the Pattern 99, the extra length of the GS can be dealt with in the shop.
If you're considering shortening the tail, you might want to hit the pause button, since it would not be an easily reversible operation. My coach loves the GS for two main reasons: the pronounced spin rocker (which I'm not sure you have on your used blades) and the longer tail. The longer tail allows you to lean back more during backward strokes, allowing deeper edges and more power. You might want to play around with that.
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Thanks for the concern. I consider myself to have strong backward crossovers, and have not had trouble with them using much shorter dance blades. My bigger fear is that I could tangle tails doing backward cross strokes and take a backward tumble. The long tails on the GS blades had already caused a couple of near-misses after they "clicked" together.
If shortening them does prove to be a problem, I could buy another pair.
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I too would personally hesitate to shorten blades. It seems like you haven't had enough time to get used to your new blades, might therefore still change your mind, and like the previous poster said, it is a non-reversible operation.
An interesting footnote to long vs short tails: Most freestyle skaters lean backwards while skating forwards, and vice versa. Many but not all ice dancers do the exact reverse, perhaps to look more like ballroom dance. Also, freestyle skaters tend to push directly sideways during forward and backwards strokes, whereas the ice dance style is quite different. I think ice dancers typically push about 45 degrees diagonally back during forwards strokes. Partly a "look" thing rather than an efficiency thing, but it also helps avoid running into your partners skates. And during backwards strokes, they typically using a very different style, in which the pushing foot is turned, sometimes at right angles, across the gliding foot. Again, I think it is partly "look", and partly to avoid running into your partners blades.
Those things might affect how much of the blade you use while skating forwards and backwards, and, done right, might eliminate the need to shorten your blades.
I've met a lot of ice dancers who skate on standard freestyle blades, and some people in this forum do so. With the "right" style perhaps you don't need to shorten your blades.
Just a thought. You would be better off discussing it with a better skater than me, like a coach.
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I had a convo on social media with someone who bought/acquired Pattern 99 Revolutions with a Gold Seal rocker. It's a special-order item from Wilson. One of the elite ISU finalists has them as well.
I like the longer tails on the Gold Seals - with the Patt99's, I rocked off the shorter tails several times, but I usually wear GS's, so it was probably an adjustment thing.
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Interesting about the special order rockers. I'll bet that's pricey.
I remember your stated preference for the longer GS blades over the 1/4" shorter Pattern 99 from another thread. That's when I realized that blade length can be a personal preference. I never had that feeling of sliding off the back of the blade, even on the very short dance blades that I tried.
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A longer blade should be faster, and give longer glides, because each stroke (or sideways push) can generate push over a longer roll. It can also make use of a larger portion of your muscles, because different stages in the push make use of different portions of your muscles. Some of my ice dance coaches advocated a full length roll for that reason. The people who taught me a little about speed skating said they did that too - and those blades are much longer.
I don't often fall backwards on figure, but I've sometimes fall backwards off hockey blades, which are also much shorter.
That said, I am sufficiently clumsy that short tails on figure skate mostly benefit me. I've stepped on my other blade during a simple Mohawk. And I once accidentally tripped an ice dance partner (Very, very bad form! And she could have been hurt.), though I don't recall any more whether the back of the blade played a roll.
All I'm saying is that you might wish to give those expensive blades a couple months of practice before butchering them.
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For anyone who is interested, I have placed spreadsheets of my rocker measurements on my web site. I have sheets for all blades in one folder, including those from other threads on this forum.
To see them all and to download one or more of them for your own purposes (i.e. calculating rocker radii at different locations or using different points), go to...
http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/rocker_spreadsheets/ (http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/rocker_spreadsheets/)
When I click on a filename in Firefox, I'm offered a choice to download it. In other browsers, it might take a right-click.
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Thanks. Got them OK.
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That's when I realized that blade length can be a personal preference.
Definitely a wide variation in personal preference. My last blade switch was from the Eclipse Aurora (nominal copy of Wilson Coronation Ace) to the Paramount Freestyle 12" (nominal copy of the Wilson Gold Seal). The longer tail on the Paramount has helped my backward skating a lot; but that's mainly due to my coach's instructional style: she shouts out to me, "Lean back more! You've got a longer blade now! Don't be afraid to use all of it!"
I didn't have any problems clacking tails on back cross-overs. My one substantial adjustment was on T-Stops. The first time I tried on the Paramount, I brought the edge of my rear (stopping) blade onto the top of the tail of my front (gliding) blade, instead of onto the ice. Fortunately, I was doing a gentle stop; no fall. The 8' rocker and the longer tail helped keep my gliding blade stable and averted a nasty backwards fall. Also, since the chassis of the Paramount is a relatively soft aluminum alloy, there was no damage (not even a minor nick) to the 440C SS edge on the rear blade; only an inconsequential nick to the chassis. I quickly re-adjusted my T-Stop technique to keep that contact from happening again.
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I didn't have any problems clacking tails on back cross-overs.
Just to clarify, I didn't have any problem with back cross-overs either. It was the back cross-strokes (alternating back outside edges where the transitional free foot crosses behind the skater onto a new outside edge) where I had the concern. I also clicked blades on tight Mohawks.
BTW, I've looked at another skater's Eclipse Mist blades which were compared by Riedell to Aces, and they have much thinner blades. I'm guessing blade thickness is around 0.140". While Riedell compared Mists to Wilson Coronation Ace blades, I suspect that it's an original design and not a knock-off copy of the Ace. It's being sold in the same performance range as the Ace, hence Riedell's chart comparing the two blades' features. The adult skater who skates in them loves them. When she needs a sharpening, I'll examine them more closely for rocker differences.
Mists are discontinued now, but some sizes are still available from a handful of online sellers. I went to the Wayback Machine site to find the old Riedell information for it from 2015....
https://web.archive.org/web/20150216035530/http://ice.riedellskates.com/products/blades/mist/ (https://web.archive.org/web/20150216035530/http://ice.riedellskates.com/products/blades/mist/)
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I shortened the tails of the Gold Seal blades to ready them for mounting. See this thread http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8487.0 (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8487.0)
However I'm still torn about which blade to mount. I really like the Pattern 99 now, but I said that about the Gold Seal previously. Maybe I'll just flip a coin.
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The biggest difference I feel between these two types of blades is not the length of the blade, but the height of the blade. Gold Seals have higher stanchions than Pattern 99s, and this changes everything, for me. Jump Takeoffs (ESP. Toe Jumps), Spin Entrances, Crossovers, Turns, Edges, etc. Even basic skating.
Depending on your skill level and how often you skate, you might want to give yourself a few weeks to acclimate them.
Best thing to do is have two boots and just mount one blade on each. That's what I did. Now, I just swap whenever I see fit. It takes me 10 minutes to adjust to any different boots/blades now, since I've been through so many :-P
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I shortened the tails of the Gold Seal blades to ready them for mounting. See this thread http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8487.0 (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8487.0)
However I'm still torn about which blade to mount. I really like the Pattern 99 now, but I said that about the Gold Seal previously. Maybe I'll just flip a coin.
<<Emphasis added>> Now that's a surprise. I thought you would have decided on the GS before you shortened the tails. But perhaps subconsciously you already have made your decision: You can still readily sell your P99 if you wish; probably a lot harder to sell your shortened GS; so rather than let the shortened GS lie idle, you'll mount them and skate on them.
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Best thing to do is have two boots and just mount one blade on each. That's what I did. Now, I just swap whenever I see fit. It takes me 10 minutes to adjust to any different boots/blades now, since I've been through so many :-P
He DOES have two pairs of new boots!! He just tried out so many blades that he still has to decide between them all. I think he said he was putting dance blades on the other boots.
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To tell you the truth, I did it because it might force a decision.
I was grumpy with myself for being on the fence between the two blades. In a fit of frustration, I thought that this would help me decide.
Now I'm thinking that instead of mounting the Eclipse Dance blades on the 2010 Fusion boots, that I might further shorten the Gold Seals to dance blade length and use those instead. I'd still have the Pattern 99 blades on the Silver Stars.
However grinding off another inch or so from each blade will take an awfully long time to do, and I wouldn't look forward to doing that. Even at the current length, the blade's rear mounting plate was starting to interfere with the tool rest. It will limit my ability to grind more unless I modify the grinder.
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However grinding off another inch or so from each blade will take an awfully long time to do, and I wouldn't look forward to doing that. Even at the current length, the blade's rear mounting plate was starting to interfere with the tool rest. It will limit my ability to grind more unless I modify the grinder.
That would be an awful lot of grinding (X2). Is one of your grinders equipped with a continuous water cooling tray? If so, you could check whether it could be outfitted with a thin abrasive cutoff wheel, instead of a standard grinder wheel; i.e., convert the grinder to a temporary abrasive chop saw. Rather than grinding off an inch or so, cut off a bit less than an inch, and then do a finish grind as before.
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I do have a water-bath grinder, but it runs at a very slow speed (90 RPM). If I could find a wheel to fit, it might take a while to cut.
I was also wondering about a wet tile or masonry cutter. I'll bet the abrasive wheels would take a beating doing hardened steel though.
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I was also wondering about a wet tile or masonry cutter. I'll bet the abrasive wheels would take a beating doing hardened steel though.
That should work. A variety of blades are available for ceramic tile, which vary a lot in hardness and density. The blades designed for hard, dense ceramic (such as fired porcelain) should work on hardened steel (especially since you're doing relatively short cuts). I assume you want to avoid buying a blade specifically for hardened steel since this is a one-off job (assuming you can get one with the right mounting hole). So if you have access to a colleague with a wet tile saw and the right blade, you can save yourself a lot of grinding.
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I was thinking renting to save purchasing, although I've seen them advertised for sale for $100. I'll check out the local "maker's space" for options too.
Hey, this could be another side business - skate blade nips and tucks to expand the range for ice dancers. (mostly joking)
At this point, I think that I'll mount the P99 on the Silver Star, and mount the GS in it's slightly modified form on the 2010 Fusion. I could shorten it to dance length later if I desired.
The toe picks on the GS are less aggressive than the P99, better for dance, so that's the logical route.
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At this point, I think that I'll mount the P99 on the Silver Star, and mount the GS in it's slightly modified form on the 2010 Fusion. I could shorten it to dance length later if I desired.
The toe picks on the GS are less aggressive than the P99, better for dance, so that's the logical route.
So, it's thumbs down for Eclipse Dance?
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I'd put them on in a heartbeat except for one thing - I couldn't spin in them.
You can see my dilemma.
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You can buy relatively inexpensive diamond dust abrasive saw blades, in circular and straight shapes, from places like Home Depot. I wonder how well they cut hardened steel. I assume it isn't just the abrasive - the adhesive holding the dust might need to be strong too.
Even your not-so-favorite source, Harbor Freight: https://www.harborfreight.com/search?order=price-low&q=diamond%20blade :)
Dremel has little diamond cutting wheels too. Might something that small wear out before you finished cutting two blades?
Some people have been horrified when hockey-trained techs rounded off the backs of their figure skating blades. Imagine what they would say of a skate tech who cut or ground off as much as you will off of their top-of-the-line freestyle blades! :drama:
Are you sure you need the toe picks? :)
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I'd put them on in a heartbeat except for one thing - I couldn't spin in them.
You can see my dilemma.
If you ever see fit to sell them I am definitely interested!
Thanks.
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In many cases claiming that side honing improves the bite is just marketing people nice theories. Just like Bill has noted, this nice theory is probably crushed with chrome removal grinding process. However 99% of people want to still believe more to marketing hype rather than facts. If the side surface from the edge what you use for skating is convex and not concave like they want you to believe, its for sure that it will not increase bite affect.
https://youtu.be/zPbp-xwWUNo
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That video shows the issue quite convincingly. The potential for greater grip is ruined by some poor manufacturing steps.
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I don't understand your point.
Do I correctly understand that the video shows is that the upper portion of the runner is thinner around the staunchion, presumably because the stunchion supports the weight, stiffness and stress. That particular form of side honing reduces the weight of the blade, though I'm not sure it is by enough to matter.
Bill did another test at one point, where he showed that a particular blade did not have any side honing near the bottom of the blade, where it would affect the way the edge interacts. That was a very convincing demonstration that aside from slightly reducing weight, on that particular blade, side honing did nothing useful.
There is another very important factor you are ignoring. The placebo effect. If a skater is convinced that they don't have the best possible blade, they may think they can't do well, so they won't. They may not even think it worth trying very hard. And they will be upset that their parents or guardians won't buy them the blade they want, so they won't even be able to concentrate on skating. I'm convinced that for some skaters this is a huge effect, and that it makes a big difference.
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I don't understand your point.
Imagine that I will sharpen your skates and I do following kind of grinding to your blades. Can you list two clear problems what you can see on the attached sketch?
The placebo effect.
I can assure that I have not forgot this point. It´s you and 99,9% of skaters and their parents whom wants desperately ignore many facts by closing ears and eyes. Also way too many coaches does have very poor technical knowledge of blades and it seems they are not even interested to understand technical things. That's the problem in whole figure skating culture. People want to live in the bubble and dream that they are driving with Ferrari, even sale's person sold them Fiat. Both starts with F and according to sales person they use same components and they are owned by same group, but they sold in different brand. Even you would have Ferrari, it does not help if the final tuning of your car is done someone whom tunes your Ferrari in to level of Fiat. Or if you have very skilled technician who could tune your Ferrari to word class race car, but you are not able to tell how it feels on your hand and how would you like to your Ferrari be tuned. It's also very likely that someone may beat your Ferrari with highly tuned regular family car. You just need to have skills and knowledge for that.
In the other words, both are very important, mental side and equipments. I cannot say how much each imperfection in blades truly affects, but I am kind of person whom want to turn every stone if there is even some hope to help skaters.
PS. I do not have any experience of Fiat or Ferrari, but this is good example how deep its in people's minds that certain brand is better than some other.
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Imagine that I will sharpen your skates and I do following kind of grinding to your blades. Can you list two clear problems what you can see on the attached sketch?
I can assure that I have not forgot this point. It´s you and 99,9% of skaters and their parents whom wants desperately ignore many facts by closing ears and eyes. Also way too many coaches does have very poor technical knowledge of blades and it seems they are not even interested to understand technical things. That's the problem in whole figure skating culture. People want to live in the bubble and dream that they are driving with Ferrari, even sale's person sold them Fiat. Both starts with F and according to sales person they use same components and they are owned by same group, but they sold in different brand. Even you would have Ferrari, it does not help if the final tuning of your car is done someone whom tunes your Ferrari in to level of Fiat. Or if you have very skilled technician who could tune your Ferrari to word class race car, but you are not able to tell how it feels on your hand and how would you like to your Ferrari be tuned. It's also very likely that someone may beat your Ferrari with highly tuned regular family car. You just need to have skills and knowledge for that.
In the other words, both are very important, mental side and equipments. I cannot say how much each imperfection in blades truly affects, but I am kind of person whom want to turn every stone if there is even some hope to help skaters.
PS. I do not have any experience of Fiat or Ferrari, but this is good example how deep its in people's minds that certain brand is better than some other.
Excellent analogy with Ferrari-Fiat. Many people buy blades such as Wilson Gold Seal thinking they have bought the Ferrari (which is debatable in my opinion) but unless they have a skate tech that really looks at the geometry of the blade in all 3 dimensions and also understands the physics of the blade's interaction with the ice surface, this blade will probably be tuned more to the level of a fancy riding lawnmower. Even if the side-honing is consistently carried all the way to the edge of the blade (which I have never seen on a blade with chrome relief), assessing when the edges are truly level is challenging. If a skate tech tells you it is easy to get level edges on a side-honed blade, you should ask them how they assess the finished product. Either they are understating the care it takes to deal with two flared edges, or they don't actually understand the differences in blade geometry and are probably giving you different edge angles on the two sides of the blade.
In most cases, the side-honing has been eliminated by the chrome relief grinding, and often I see areas near the toe pick and tail that are ground so that the blade has also had a curve gouged out of it. Perhaps this is less important right at the tail, since most free skaters do not really skate all the way at the end of the tail except during brief moments of balance change (or loss). At the front of the skate, it often appears right at the area where spins take place, which is not at all beneficial.
Between the potential for bad sharpenings and the inconsistencies from the chrome relief grinding, it is quite a challenge to get these Ferrari parts to be tuned to help skaters win the race. I have come to the conclusion that the correlation between this type of blade and the world's best skaters is a reverse causation--the skaters that would win anyway have been put in this blade because this is what you are told you should wear if you want to be a winner. The world's best skaters win in spite of the blade, because they are talented, hard-working, and very skilled. They also work with very high-end skate techs who will only accept blades that are nearly perfect and will use their tech skills to rectify imperfections placed on the blades in the manufacturing process. Most skaters do not have access to this level of care for our blades.
Having the idea in your head that you have risen to the skill level to wear the world's best blades is a strong boost for most skaters' confidence, so as pointed out by others, the skater will improve because their confidence has increased, making them think that mistakes are an "oops" or a "one-off" rather than a sign that they are not as good of a skater as they thought. I think this is the main reason that skaters will improve when moving to a higher level blade even if they move to a blade with a problematic design.
Even parallel blades can be affected by these problems. Pattern 99 is a parallel blade (no side-honing) but the chrome relief is often ground as shown in Kaitsu's video. This same blade profile is available from Step Blades (Step 99) in stainless with no side-honing. Anyone that skates in Pattern 99 should consider trying the Step 99 just for the improvement in steel quality. And the price is lower...hard to complain about that. Paramount makes a blade with the Pattern 99 profile and also in the Gold Seal profile, both with runners that are truly parallel. They are available with stainless runners or carbon steel runners.
Skaters who are seeking a true flared edge on their blades can find this on both the Matrix blades (Matrix Nova, supposed to be similar to MK Gold Star) and on the Ultima Apex series of blades. The Apex blades are carbon steel with a titanium coating on the sides and dove-tailed sides that flare all the way to the edges. The matrix frame and the sides of the blades are parallel, so it is easy to tell if the edges are level when you sharpen them. Both of these blades cost several hundred dollars ($US) less than the Gold Seal and around 100$US less than the MK Gold Star. And most skate techs with any reasonable level of skill will be able to sharpen them for you with consistent results.
I'd rather pay Fiat prices and drive a car that can be tuned to outrun the Ferrari. I'm pretty sure that when someone is watching me skate, they are not looking at my blades and giving me any kind of additional credit for having a certain type of blade.
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Skaters who are seeking a true flared edge on their blades can find this on both the Matrix blades (Matrix Nova, supposed to be similar to MK Gold Star) and on the Ultima Apex series of blades. The Apex blades are carbon steel with a titanium coating on the sides and dove-tailed sides that flare all the way to the edges. The matrix frame and the sides of the blades are parallel, so it is easy to tell if the edges are level when you sharpen them. Both of these blades cost several hundred dollars ($US) less than the Gold Seal and around 100$US less than the MK Gold Star. And most skate techs with any reasonable level of skill will be able to sharpen them for you with consistent results.
You read my mind. I was going to ask whether anyone had experience with other blades. Besides the Ultima Matrix and Ultima Apex series, have you had any experience with the MK Phantom Special (chrome-plated plain carbon steel with dovetail edges) and the Eclipse Pinnacle (chrome-plated plain carbon steel with concave side honing)? [The Titanium version of the Pinnacle with the stainless steel runner does not have concave side honing.]
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You read my mind. I was going to ask whether anyone had experience with other blades. Besides the Ultima Matrix and Ultima Apex series, have you had any experience with the MK Phantom Special (chrome-plated plain carbon steel with dovetail edges) and the Eclipse Pinnacle (chrome-plated plain carbon steel with concave side honing)? [The Titanium version of the Pinnacle with the stainless steel runner does not have concave side honing.]
I have seen maybe 8 pairs of side-honed Eclipse Pinnacle blades over the last 10 years. The finishing seems more controlled than on the Wilson/MK blades (both owned by HD Sports now) in the sense that there have been no gouges in the blades along the chrome relief strip. They claim to use a CNC process for grinding the chrome relief, but I have seen that the chrome relief grinding removes the flare on the blade…so there is no real benefit other than the pretty upside-down reflections that some people seem to admire so much. Also, the steel requires a very light touch when sharpening or the blade life is pretty short. That, along with the concave sides that make it difficult to know when the edges are level, make me recommend against these blades. Eclipse now makes a parallel version of the Pinnacle profile that one of our skaters switched to without knowing it, and she did not notice any difference after being on the side-honed version for about 6 years. The other skater currently on the Pinnacle is about to get new skates and I recommended that she do the same thing, because she is in college now and can’t always count on having a skate tech around that will give her level edges on the side-honed blades.
I have never seen a Phantom Special in person and there are very few photos online—I couldn’t find any that give a clear view of the dovetailed edges. It seems like a significant upgrade as long as the dovetail is well-executed and not damaged with chrome relief grinding.
The titanium version of the Pinnacle has parallel runners (made by Step) of very nice quality stainless (marketed as “Swedish Stainless runners” on the Eclipse website), same as on the Infinity Titanium, which I have sharpened several pairs of. They hold an edge about twice as long as carbon steel blades and the flow across the ice is lovely. When you compare 599$US to 2 x 420$US, the titanium version is actually a better value. Note that they now list the regular Pinnacle as stainless, but I have only seen it in carbon steel. If it is stainless, the stainless grade is not high-polish, since they are chrome-plating the blade and grinding a chrome relief band.
The Eclipse blade page is an excellent example of what we have been discussing regarding zero technical information being available about blades. It is all dreamy talk and no real information about why you would select one blade over another. There is nothing to distinguish the difference between two blades at the same price point and perceived “level”—the Pinnacle Ti vs the Infinity Ti, for example. If I had decided that I wanted a flight weight blade with a classic look, I would be choosing between the two of these, and the only difference I can see is the cross-cut vs straight toe pick. Perhaps that is the only difference? Both have the “striking new silhouette that aids in reducing torque while adding structural strength”. Reducing torque on what? To what advantage? I’m sure I am supposed to think this sounds amazing but instead I wonder what they expect the average customer to take away from that statement. My guess is they are trying to say that they have reduced twist in the blade when torque is applied, but who knows? I can see the blade has holes in it now that will use less material, which is great if the stability of the blade hasn’t been compromised in the process. What about the solid sole plates? Wouldn’t that be a good place to reduce weight (and thus use less material)? I would love to see some actual comparisons of the added strength and stability provided by the solid sole plate instead of fancy meaningless statements.
Looking at the Eclipse website for the details revealed that they now offer a matrix-like competitor called the Quantum:
https://www.ice.riedellskates.com/Catalog/Eclipse-Blades/Quantum-Blade
Retail cost of 310$US, not bad for a blade with an aluminum chassis and a 440C stainless runner.
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* Hi supersharp. Thanks for your experiences with the Eclipse blades. I previously skated on the Eclipse Aurora, their copy of the Coronation Ace, except the Aurora is fabricated from mirror-polished 440C stainless steel. At about the same price as the Coronation Ace, I thought the material and manufacturing quality was much better. But I didn't care for the flatter spin rocker.
* The marketing material used to be more detailed. Essentially, the Pinnacle is their copy of the Gold Seal, and the Infinity is their copy of the P99. That's why the Pinnacle has a solid sole plate and X-cut picks, and the Infinity has a cutout on the sole plate and straight-cut picks. The Infinity also has the distinctive chisel-point top pick characteristic of the P99. But, for some reason, Eclipse also designs these models with flatter spin rockers than their Wilson counterparts. That's what caused me to turn reluctantly to Paramount. They charge a huge mark-up for 440C.
* I wonder if the current listing for the regular Pinnacle [ETA1: and Infinity] as chrome-plated stainless steel is a typo? Doesn't make sense to me. [ETA2: I just noticed that the entire Eclipse line is now listed as stainless steel.]
* Yes, it is bizarre on the lightweight Titanium series how they've introduced cutouts on the stanchions of both the Pinnacle and the Infinity to further reduce weight, yet they maintain the solid sole plate on the Pinnacle. At one time Wilson marketed the Gold Seal as one step up from the P99. They don't anymore. And in practice, it's a matter of personal preference among top skaters. So, if the P99 sole plate with the cutout is strong enough for skaters doing quads, why is a solid sole plate needed for the GS?
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Thanks for the info, tstop! Now that you say that, I do remember the Infinity looking a lot like the Pattern 99.
I also wondered if the listing of stainless was a typo, particularly when they also claim to have "full silver welds".
I suspect that to some people, the solid sole plate is their indication that the blade is strong enough for them (or elite enough, in most cases). I had one parent start putting her kids in solid sole plate blades when they were just finishing Pre-Juv moves. They wanted their skaters to have really good equipment so there would be no risk of stress fractures and other types of injury. I really don't think a solid sole plate is going to prevent any type of injury at all, and putting a kid in stiffer boots doesn't reduce the likelihood of injury (unless they are moving out of broken-down boots).
I had really hoped the Eclipse Aurora would be a similar replacement for the Coronation Ace, and several of our skaters have tried it...but they really are not at a point where they can identify whether they prefer one rocker to another. They just put on what they are given next and go race around the rink in it. For adult skaters or anyone that has been on the same blade for awhile, a new Aurora will be disappointingly similar to a worn-out Coronation Ace except that the steel is nicer and the edges have not been damaged by the chrome relief grinding. I suppose you could take an Aurora and re-profile it to match the Coronation Ace profile better, but that is a lot of custom work.
Any idea what the profile on the Quantum is?
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One of the reasons I stayed with parallel edge blades is because I sharpen my own blades. I think I could figure out how to sharpen side-honed ones - but unless I can convince myself there would be a significant advantage for me, I don't see any reason to bother. It's a lot easier and faster when they are parallel.
I think I could check the level with precision square - by either looking at the gap each side, and making sure they were the same, or slipping in a thin piece of paper on each side and seeing how far it would go in. But that's another step, that would waste time.
Another potential problem exists if the side honing extends down to the working edge. In particular, the width of the blade will vary with how much metal has been removed by sharpening. Not only will blade characteristics gradually shift as you use the blade, but if different amounts are removed from different portions along the length, that could create some very peculiar blade shapes, with some very peculiar characteristics. Imagine how much extra time I would need to spend sharpening my blades if had to prevent that.
Plus, a good skater can perhaps compensate for a slightly uneven edge, but if the edge level or width varies a lot down the length, and/or varies differently each time it is sharpened, they would have to keep learning to compensate every time the blade is sharpened. Unless there is a very, very good reason for it, it wouldn't be worth it.
I have little little trust I have that the average skate tech would do better than me. I might trust some of you to take the time to do it right, but many skate techs aren't adequately trained to do a good job of even basic sharpening, and they are often under big time pressure to work as fast as they can. I started to sharpen my own because even the best techs I found at the time weren't very consistent.
For a serious skater who goes from competition to competition or show to show, they may not always be able to find a good tech. (Unless they sharpen their own, which few do.)
One difference is definitely true for skate blades - if you damage a blade, some types will be easier to replace quickly than others. It would be a lot harder to replace Sport Science blades or even Gold Seals on the road, than parallel sided Coronation Aces or Pattern 99s. I'm not clear if that is important to many skaters.
I know a few travel with two complete pairs of boots and blades, so that isn't a problem, and for other reasons. But that costs a lot extra.
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I suppose you could take an Aurora and re-profile it to match the Coronation Ace profile better, but that is a lot of custom work.
Any idea what the profile on the Quantum is?
Interesting you should mention re-profiling. I was impressed enough with the Aurora that I asked Riedell Eclipse whether they would do a custom profile for me. They said no.
The Quantum has the same profile as the Aurora, so nominally comparable to the Coronation Ace. Why anyone would pay $310 for the Quantum vs $240 for the Aurora beats me, though. The benefits of lighter weight at the intermediate level escapes me. And I prefer the traditional layout over chassis + runner.
The latest Eclipse website is chock full of errors. From the Quantum page:
Move faster, jump higher and stay on the ice longer with the lightweight Eclipse Quantum Blade.
Precisely engineered to the highest standards, the Quantum Blade is made from a harder 6005 T/5 Aluminum and features a permanently affixed, stronger, rust-resistant 440 C Stainless Steel runner that holds an edge longer.
Its 7 foot radius allows for graceful, versatile freestyle movement and a cross-cut rake provides exceptional stability.
Enjoy the perfect combination of lightweight titanium, as well as the soft gliding on the ice with the Stainless Steel runner.
<<Emphasis Added>>
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Interesting you should mention re-profiling. I was impressed enough with the Aurora that I asked Riedell Eclipse whether they would do a custom profile for me. They said no.
The Quantum has the same profile as the Aurora, so nominally comparable to the Coronation Ace. Why anyone would pay $310 for the Quantum vs $240 for the Aurora beats me, though. The benefits of lighter weight at the intermediate level escapes me. And I prefer the traditional layout over chassis + runner.
The latest Eclipse website is chock full of errors. From the Quantum page:
Move faster, jump higher and stay on the ice longer with the lightweight Eclipse Quantum Blade.
Precisely engineered to the highest standards, the Quantum Blade is made from a harder 6005 T/5 Aluminum and features a permanently affixed, stronger, rust-resistant 440 C Stainless Steel runner that holds an edge longer.
Its 7 foot radius allows for graceful, versatile freestyle movement and a cross-cut rake provides exceptional stability.
Enjoy the perfect combination of lightweight titanium, as well as the soft gliding on the ice with the Stainless Steel runner.
<<Emphasis Added>>
Looks to me like the copy-and-revise system led to that mistake. I suspect the same is true for all of the blades being listed as stainless steel.
I agree with you, the Aurora makes more sense than the Quantum unless you are worried about weight. At the time that I had skaters using the Aurora, I didn't trace the profile, just compared it to a traced CoroAce. Now I'm curious about the drag pick placement, and wondering if it is feasible to provide a bit more curvature at the front.
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Assume for the moment that the chassis is 6005 T/5 Aluminum, and the runner is 440C Stainless steel.
Maybe titanium is mentioned because 6005 T/5 Aluminum can have a small amount of titanium (<.1%)?:
https://www.allianceorg.com/pdfs/alumext/GradesAndProperties.pdf
What I can't figure out is whether that small amount of titanium could possibly be a good thing, in terms of strength or galvanic corrosion.
Titanium and some other "intermetallic inclusions" in aluminum are sometimes said to be bad. E.g., see
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/306292737_Final_Report_on_Effect_of_Impurities_in_Aluminum
and some articles say that intermetallic inclusions in aluminum can make it more vulnerable to galvanic corrosion.
But https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_carbide says that aluminum carbide inclusions reduce aluminum's tendency to creep (gradually deform).
And 6xxx series aluminum alloys can sometimes be precipitation hardened, which might mean the blade wouldn't distort too much during impact.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/6000-series-alloy
(Note however that carbon is not listed as a deliberate component of 6005 T5 Aluminum.) And aluminum is sometimes deliberately added to titanium alloys. (At very different aluminum and titanium percentages of course.)
Of course people have learned to consider "titanium" an expensive lightweight corrosion resistant very strong substance, and perhaps that is why they choose to advertise it. Obviously, it wouldn't actually have to be good, nor would its inclusion have to be deliberate, to be advertised. Normal people reading the ad will assume that it is, and that might be all that matters to the people writing the ads.
In other words, the mention of titanium in the ad might be another attempt to use the placebo effect. We can't even know whether the people who wrote the ad understood why the titanium is present. :)
But could someone who understands metallurgy say whether the titanium content in such blades could possibly be a good thing?
There is another possibility. Perhaps the screws are titanium. (Incidentally many articles say aluminum/titanium welds are weakened by galvanic corrosion. Not sure if that would be relevant to using titanium screws through an aluminum chassis.)
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Interesting trip down the rabbit hole, but I seriously doubt it is anything other than sloppy editing. It's very unlikely people writing the descriptions on the web page don't have this level of understanding of metallurgy.
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It is interesting that for the MK blades you will get 12 months warranty when for Wilson blades you will get lifetime warranty. Lifetime warranty is something what think no any other blade manufacturer will give. I am quite sure that this 12 month warranty limitation in MK web pages was not there about one month ago. But I might be also wrong.
https://www.mkblades.com/our-promise
https://www.johnwilsonskates.com/our-promise
What about the solid sole plates? Wouldn’t that be a good place to reduce weight (and thus use less material)? I would love to see some actual comparisons of the added strength and stability provided by the solid sole plate instead of fancy meaningless statements
Imagine that you have two piece of sheet metal and you should bend them from the middle. One is 50mm long and another is 85mm long. Which one need more force to bend to same amount?
Even there is gap between the stanchions (not brazed to sole plate) I strongly believe solid toe plate increases its strength. I do have one very recent case where landing (right) foot sole plate was heavily deformed. See attached picture which is taken from 16 years old girl blades. If you wonder if such damage is covered by life time warranty, it is not because it’s not manufacturing defect.
10” Gold Seal has same weight as 10” Coronation Ace. This means that solid sole plate weight is compensated with side honing. If someone has recorded weights of factory new blades, we can do some information trade.
If you are interested about re-profiling of blade, I recommend taking contact to Precision Blade Honing Enterprises. I have been in Brian´s training where he told story how Patrik Chan liked JW side honed blades, because they flex more than parallel blades, but he liked more some MK blade profile (or opposite). Brian made special blades for Patrik by re-profiling the side honed blades. In theory this sounds easy if you just have patterns what to use as a grinding template, but I do not understand how toe picks position can be kept correct if you have standard blades and you remove quite a lot of material in re-profiling.
I have always wondered if blades which are said to be made from Titanium are really solid Titanium. Titanium sounds so expensive material that I would expect blade price to be so high that they are out of normal skater budget. If someone has scrapped Titanium blades, I can investigate what they truly are made. I just need small piece from the blade.
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I agree that the solid sole plate would be stronger, I'm just curious how much stronger it is. It should resist some types of deformation better than other types, and it would be interesting to see which forces it withstands better.
For example, it seems like it would be a better choice for the skater who deformed the sole plate in your photo.
Does the solid sole plate help resist torsional deformation? When you mount blades and don't shim all the gaps between the boot sole and the sole plates, the blade gets pulled toward the boot sole. Many of the blades that I mount sit higher on one side of the plate than on the other side, meaning that there is a bigger gap under the blade on the inside or outside of the sole plate, which is often not the same on the front sole plate and the heel plate. If this gap is not the same on both plates and I just tighten the screws to attach the blade, the blade will twist to lay flat. I have observed this by laying flat bars on the blade before and after tightening the screws, and the blade twists due to the uneven pull. The unsupported distance between the sole plates allows this to happen, which is why I stopped following the training I was originally given (just tighten it down, the boot will conform to the blade, don't worry about it, it will be fine!) and started shimming under the sole plates so that the blade does not twist. I have noticed that the parallel blades with solid sole plates seem to be more torsionally stable than other parallel blades, but I am really comparing peaches to nectarines here. They are similar but really not the same thing.
In my experience, the side-honed blades are less torsionally stable, probably due to the thinner cross section in that unsupported length of the blade. Mounting side-honed blades takes patience. The worst is parabolic blades...they have that thin unsupported waist that has a hard time resisting twist when you add the screws. Fortunately only a couple of skaters here have parabolics and they don't skate very often, so mounting new blades only happens every 5 or 6 years.
I sharpened an Ultima Apex Elite blade yesterday for a skater going back to college. She is on a national-level collegiate team and her blades were sharpened by the team tech. The boots and blades are relatively new, probably got them in May and then we had no ice until a few weeks ago, so she hadn't skated on them much. The left blade was mounted on a curve and the sharpening was atrocious. Due to the curve (and not having the blade in a holder that could straighten it out while sharpening), with the front and back were low on the outside edge and the center was low on the inside edge--both by quite a bit. Unfortunately, solid sole plates can't prevent the blade from being pulled into a curve when the screws are driven at an angle and pull the center of the blade sideways. [And apparently being the skate tech for a high-level synchro team does not require much understanding of blades. The skater said she is afraid to get her skates sharpened at school but can't make it for a whole semester without needing a sharpening. Both times the team sharpener has had them, they were scary to skate on.]
None of our skaters wear Paramount or Matrix blades, but I imagine that the thicker chassis would be great for reducing twist and curvature. Since none of the coaches use them, none of the skaters do...
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Imagine that I will sharpen your skates and I do following kind of grinding to your blades. Can you list two clear problems what you can see on the attached sketch?
I looked again at your earlier post and tried to figure out what you were picturing. The problem is, I'm not sure how carefully you drew your diagram, so I'm not sure if some of this is misinterpreted.
1. The sharpener did not finish sharpening. It's like they took an insufficient number of passes with a grinding stone or wheel. Hence there are no edges. So the blade is not sharp, by any reasonable definition. There are people who manage to skate on very dull edges. But that isn't what people who bring blades to skate techs usually want. It certainly isn't what I would want.
2. The sides are not parallel, but are dovetail cut. Meaning that they are narrower towards the bottom. I think that is what you intended, but it isn't "clear" - one can only see it by looking at it in careful detail, or taking a measurement. However, if my understanding is correct, that isn't the way dovetail cuts are done. In your case, the sides are still straight. But if I understand correctly, the normal way to create a dovetail cut is to "hollow grind" the sides - i.e., you use something akin to a milling machine to create a concave hollow down the sides - somewhat like the hollow at the bottom. However, I suppose a blade could be dovetail cut that way.
I am curious: what type of tool could be used to create this type of dovetail cut?
3. The flat part on the bottom would normally exist only on a new blade, or a blade on which a skate tech used a cross grinding wheel in a very efficient manner, to create a flat surface to simplify the centering of the longitudinal grind wheel. The former isn't consistent with the rounded corners at the bottom - if the bottom were only worn, it would be ragged, just like the bottom rounded corners are. The latter removes a lot of metal, and in my view is not necessary.
(Incidentally, the rounded corners are ragged. Raggedness does happen in the real world, but I'm not sure if you meant to draw it - in cross sectional diagrams like this, people usually round them off perfectly, reflecting the fact that there are an infinite number of cross sections along the length of the blade, so that the shown cross section is an average, or that it is an idealization. In fact, it might just be an image compression artifact. [I used to develop and implement image compression and decompression algorithms. )
4. If the latter is correct, and the skate tech created the flat at the bottom, the skate tech failed to take the dovetail cut into account, so they ground the bottom flat at right angles to what appears in the diagram as the left side. Of course that is not at right angles to the right side. Which would defeat the purpose of grinding the bottom flat, because it would still be somewhat hard to center the wheel on the blade.
I suppose that if you mounted a blade in a holder that was only designed for parallel sided blades, this could occur. In particular, if the holder allowed a side honed blade to rock in angle a bit, and you rested the blade on the horizontal table which many sharpening machines have, that would cause the bottom grind to be at right angles to the side the blade rested on. Is that what you meant to show?
But again, that angular difference is not "clear" - you have to look or measure very carefully to see it. So I'm not sure that is what you meant to show.
5. It appears that the sharpener did not correctly center the hollow grind at the bottom of the blade, because they adjusted the height of the wheel incorrectly. If the skate tech completed the sharpening, there would therefore be uneven edges. I'm not sure if you drew that on purpose. But perhaps you were trying to show what happens if a skate tech tries to use the flat bottom (which in this case is tilted, because of the asymmetric angles mentioned above) to center the wheel. But again, that off-center grind is not "clear" - you have to look or measure very carefully to see it. So I'm not sure that is what you meant to draw.
6. But there is another interpretation to the tilted flat bottom. Perhaps it was created by normal wear by the skater, and you didn't bother to show the raggedness. In which case, the skater routinely uses their inside edge much more than their outside edge (as is common for beginners, and for many hockey skaters). Or, they center their skating on the edges they have, which were previously ground asymmetrically.
In other words, I'm not sure how to interpret your drawing, because I'm not sure which features were deliberate. The only part that is "clear" to the naked eye is that the skate tech did not finish sharpening the blade, so the blade is very, very dull.
Of course, it is possible for some accomplished skaters to compensate for uneven edges, though I admit I find it difficult to do so. And there is no reason to force them do so.
More importantly, it is possible for extremely good skaters to avoid skidding on dull edges if they very carefully align their weight (+ centrifugal force from skating on arcs) over the edges, but a less accomplished skater like me would skid all over the place on this blade.
Even before I started sharpening my own blades, if a skate tech had delivered blades to me in this condition, they would never have gotten my business again.
But I assume a skate tech as careful are as you are would sharpen side honed blades much better than this.
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It is interesting that for the MK blades you will get 12 months warranty when for Wilson blades you will get lifetime warranty. Lifetime warranty is something what think no any other blade manufacturer will give. I am quite sure that this 12 month warranty limitation in MK web pages was not there about one month ago. But I might be also wrong.
https://www.mkblades.com/our-promise
https://www.johnwilsonskates.com/our-promise
* Here is the full text of the current MK Lifetime Promise (from the website you cited):
"Our blades are designed for longevity and to endure the stresses of world-class competition. But, in the unlikely event of a problem all our products are covered by a global 12 month manufacturing warranty.
As an added bonus and for total peace of mind, send us your completed warranty card or register online and you'll be covered by our extended and unrivalled lifetime promise warranty." <<Emphasis added>>
Note that you can get a "lifetime promise warranty" on MK by registering your warranty. Your guess is as good as mine as to what constitutes a "lifetime promise warranty".
* Here is the full text of the current Wilson Lifetime Promise (from the website you cited):
"Our blades are designed for longevity and to endure the stresses of world-class competition. But, in the unlikely event of a problem, all our products are covered by a global lifetime warranty against manufacturing defects." <<Emphasis added>>
Note that registering your warranty is not required. And you get an explicit "global lifetime warranty against manufacturing defects".
* I recalled a previous discussion on the vagueness of "lifetime promise". Here's the thread from 2015: https://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=6901.msg82354#msg82354. The current MK wording [ETA: with minor changes] was used by both MK and Wilson back then. For the sake of simplicity and clarity, let's hope that the current MK wording will be revised to the current Wilson wording. Since MK and Wilson are both owned by the same parent (HD Sports), that would be logical. But marketing guys often aren't.
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You went more further in your evaluation than I expected. However if I pick words from here and there, I can find the answers what I was looking for. Your last quoted sentence indicates that you would not be very happy to my sharpening. I would not either.
1. There are no edges. So the blade is not sharp, by any reasonable definition.
3. The flat part on the bottom, rounded corners at the bottom.
If a skate tech had delivered blades to me in this condition, they would never have gotten my business again.
I made my sketch to be in purpose a bit mystery. Whom would really make such a sharpening. In some reason hollow (concave) affect is more easier to understand if it is in the bottom of the blade. If hollow is made to side surfaces, people does have huge difficulties to understand that concave shape behaves basically same way as ROH in the bottom of the blade. If the concave shape is not going in to the corner of blade, how that could improve the bite compared to normal parallel blades?
If the corner is also rounded, you have actually convex shape instead of concave which will make bite even worst than what it would be in parallel blades without chrome removal. If you take a look carefully parallel blades with chrome removal grinding, chrome removal is angled to get smooth transition to the chromed area. Such a angled grinding does not exist example in Paramount skates blades where both side surfaces are grinder with surface grinder, just like hockey blades. That method guarantees that side surfaces are flat / parallel.
Right now I don't have access to my other computer to make more beautiful sketches. I simply edited my previous sketch with Paint. I rotated my sketch 90 degrees so that the bottom of the skate presents now side honing. I made new "sharpening" by adding a hollow to the bottom of the blade and right side of the sketch I cut be flat, which presents the Paramount skates parallel blade. The red lines represent the "bite angle".
Imagine that the red lines are representing edges of two different kitchen knife. If you want to cut nice thin slices from salmon, which one cuts better, left or right knife?
People are paying a lot of attention to ROH grinding, but also side surfaces matters. Try to draw sketches which edge is actually in contact when you are doing example death spiral. I have never seen that skater could keep blade in 90 degrees angle to ice in that moment. Death spiral is just a extreme example, but helps to understand that side surfaces angles also matters.
Lesson learned is that side honing will not automatically mean higher bite (greetings to coach Aimée, PSA and other experts whom has trainer and review her training materials). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6CdHJyHdQg
You will get higher bite only if concave (or dovetail) shape goes all the way to the edges. This will not materialize in all manufacturers blades. Same affect you will get also by making dovetail shape. You could say that side honing presents a traditional ROH grinding when dovetail machining is equal with FBV sharpening.
To make dovetail machining, you will need 5-axis milling machine and dovetail milling tool. Use google to see pictures and watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGD4ZoaLp5w
Basically you could use 5-axis machine and traditional end mill cutter, but then also end of the milling is angled same amount as dovetail machining.
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Good sketch, it really shows the big issues with side-honed blades with chrome relief grinding. And skaters are paying more to have this feature added to their blade.
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Of course, there is another problem: "Side honing" isn't a specific term. There is vertical side honing, and horizontal side honing. There is what I guess you might call structural side honing, where you make the upper part of the runner thinner where the stresses are less (e.g., near the stanchions).
In any even, Bill_S, you started this thread to decide whether you liked Gold Seal or Pattern 99 better. Do I understand that you eventually settled on the Gold Seals?
But that it might have been as much the difference in rocker profile as the side honing?
EDIT Oops. You already partly answered this in reply 16 of this thread - you said the (dovetail) side honing on your Gold Seals didn't extend to the working part of the blade. But you said it had tapered side honing too.
Do you find it much harder to sharpen the Gold Seals? Or does having the right blade holder make it easy?
Did you ever get more into ice dance, and do you use different blades for that?
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Query,
Could you do a small research and list all manufacturers web pages where they say that their blades are side honed. Do not list skate shops web pages, only blade manufacturers.
I am glad that you have finally noted that most of the things what I have explained / sketched are already explained by Bill in his earlier post. I hope its now clear to you what I want to demonstrate on my video.
You might be interested about this link: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter-Federolf/publication/5243786_Ice_friction_of_flared_ice_hockey_skate_blades/links/0912f505b52ea7bed3000000/Ice-friction-of-flared-ice-hockey-skate-blades.pdf
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Query: I skated mostly on the Pattern 99 blades last year. My Gold Seals were not as badly made as those shown by Kaitsu but still didn't take full advantage of the side honing for edge shape. I've come to believe that Pattern 99s make the most sense for me.
With my skate holder, I could sharpen Gold Seals without trouble. The only issue is that I had to use a different method for determining even edges because of the curved side hone. I have to reach beyond the curve to the flat stanchions to find a perpendicular reference surface, but a small square combined with one component of my level-edge checker works fine. It just takes a little longer to check the work as I go.
I did not get further into ice dance here. There is no coach for it. On top of that, my right knee troubles began last season. I am having a difficult time even walking right now, so I probably won't delve deeply into it, if at all, in the future.
If you do research into side honed blades as Kaitsu suggested, please start a new thread for it. It's much easier to search for that information if it's in a dedicated thread.
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Of course, there is another problem: "Side honing" isn't a specific term. There is vertical side honing, and horizontal side honing. There is what I guess you might call structural side honing, where you make the upper part of the runner thinner where the stresses are less (e.g., near the stanchions).
In general, when discussing blades, the term “side-honed” is used to describe grinding the two sides of the blade so that the blade is thicker at the edges and upper stanchions and thinner through the body of the blade, as shown in Kaitsu’s recent sketch.
To reduce confusion, a blade that is ground so that it’s sides remain parallel but it is thicker at its ends and thinner at its center is referred to as “parabolic”, a name taken from the same concept used in ski shape.
Of course there is not going to be 100% consistent use of this terminology in the industry but it is a common and reasonable way to differentiate the two designs without having to re-describe the axis of grinding each time. It’s probably simplest for us to use these terms for discussion purposes.
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Except that you can find other place where "side honing" refers to horizontally side honed (parabolic and tapered blades). (And oddly enough, some "tapered" blades have been thicker at the front, and some have been thicker at the back. I still don't understand what the trade-offs of these shapes are supposed to provide. The blade companies can be surprisingly non-specific.)
For a while at least, MK and JW used another word than "parabolic", for a proprietary but similar shape. I think they claimed it was better than "parabolic" blades.
And at least at one point, Jackson Ultima used another word for their own dovetail cut blades. I think Graf did too. In fact, I don't recall any blade maker using "dovetail cut". But some people on this forum started using it, and I thought it was a better term, because, in carpentry, it has a fairly specific meaning, unlike "side honing", which can mean so many things.
It would be nice if blade companies would agree to standardize the terms for similar things. But a lot of blade companies love to use their own terms (sometimes trademarked) for blade shapes and characteristics. Of course that isn't unique to the skate blade industry. But it is hard for the consumer to figure out what would work best for them, if they all use different terms.
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As I said, the terminology is not completely consistent, and I agree that silly names are attached to the same features for marketing purposes. But for the purposes of better communication at least on this forum, it makes sense to have some standard terminology.
What blades have been thicker at the back (other than parabolics, which are thicker at the back than at the waist)?
Thicker at the front gives more bite at the front and less at the back, theoretically to help you with maneuverability at the front of the blade and better grip on jump touch-downs, and then more flow and less sinking into the ice (and thus more speed) on the thinner back of the blade to flow out of jumps and for faster crossovers.
The claim on parabolics is that they naturally recenter you at the middle of the blade, although I never felt like that happened when I had them. I had exactly the same tendency to be just a little too far forward on the blade on the parabolic CoroAce as I did with the parallel version. I have a better balance point on the SkateScience blades. I changed blades without changing boots, so I know that it was the blade design that affected this. I also changed from SkateScience Dance to Synchro blades (tiny bit lower rear stanchion) and this was even better. It just seems to suit my natural balance point better.
This is why I don't think skaters should be put on the blade their coach wears when they "upgrade" but should be assessed to see if there is a blade that suits them better than what they are using. For example, Pattern 99 vs Gold Seal...big difference in the design of the front profile of the blade. If a skater in the P99 is having a hard time because the P99 profile starts too far under the ball of the foot and they can't get to the middle or back of the blade without a struggle (as evidenced by seeming to always be scratching their toe picks), maybe the MK Pro/Gold Seal profile would work better for them. We all have a natural balance point, and that balance point needs to be over a neutral part of the blade so that we can choose to move forward or back on the blade for whatever purpose. If you are stuck too far into the spin rocker all the time, a different blade might help.
I have never skated on tapered blades, but my coach has them and our feet are the same size...so I am planning to try them out when I have a chance to see if I feel the difference.
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Pattern 99 vs Gold Seal comparison in video format. https://youtu.be/wM1sWE20Rug
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Pattern 99 vs Gold Seal comparison in video format. https://youtu.be/wM1sWE20Rug
Interesting!
I am not a fan of the side honing idea, and it seems measurably backed up. Pattern 99s all the way for me. I'd be curious to try out the pair of Gold Seals I have though, but I'm not curious enough to have anyone mess with mounting them.
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The last video link is very cool, and very clear. Good find.
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Interesting!
I am not a fan of the side honing idea, and it seems measurably backed up. Pattern 99s all the way for me. I'd be curious to try out the pair of Gold Seals I have though, but I'm not curious enough to have anyone mess with mounting them.
Side honing does make the blade perform better in terms of edging and landing security, and it's really good for axel and edge jump take-offs.
I wouldn't touch Parabolics, though...
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Side Honing is not an option. It's inherent to the blade's design. Lots of higher end blades are side-honed: Gold Seal, Phantom, Gold Star, Pinnacle, Ultima Supreme, etc.
Maybe you can ask them to make you a pair without it? I'm not sure. By default, they all come side-honed.
Maybe you're thinking about Parabolics? I wouldn't touch those as it's risky. Your tech needs to know they are side honed, and they need to know how to handle them, as the blade thickness is tapered. Not worth the risk for me.
I think you misunderstood me. I worry about sharpenings, so I would avoid those. I have to admit the parabolics I recently tried were lovely to skate on. :love: They were so, so nice.
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I tried parabolics for awhile but didn't really find them advantageous. I kept wearing them for a quite a bit because I was afraid I wouldn't be able to skate as well if I went back to parallel blades, but I had to test some skates that I mounted for a friend who lives out of town and realized that I had just spent a bunch of time skating on parallel blades and hadn't ever thought about it...so clearly it was not something that was critical for me. That being said, by the time I made this decision I was doing very little jumping, so I can't really compare that aspect. I'm back to doing more jumps, now that my knees are feeling better, and fortunately the coaching I am getting now is so much better than orginally that the improved technique has more than made up for any advantage the old blades gave me.
On skis, a parabolic shape revolutionized the experience of alpine skiing compared to parallel-sided cambered skis [carving became accessible for the non-elite level skier, hooray!] but now we have seen a similar revolution with rockered skis, which have more in common with the shape of a skate blade and also make the ski easier to turn. But the ski is long and neither the tip nor tail is close to your foot, so you are wrestling with a much larger tool, plus you are plummeting down a hill.
Skates blades are right underfoot and the ankle is able to flex to create even more options for placement of the blade on the ice, so it's not as critical to have a parabolic shape on the footprint of the blade. The great thing about parallel blades that are of a consistent thickness down the full length is that they are the simplest to mount and sharpen, so the skater is most likely to be skating with about the same edge angle after every sharpening, particularly if they stick with one skate tech (see thread on measuring accurate diamond tip distance for calibration of ROH).
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(continued due to word count issue)
From a skate tech point of view, parabolics require fanatical attention to detail during mounting, because the thinner cross-section at the middle makes it very easy for the blade to get pulled out of alignment while tightening the mounting screws. I think the biggest problem with sharpening parabolics comes from the likelihood that the centerline of the blade does not run in a straight line down the boot, in which case no matter what you do, you can't get the edges level along the entire length of the blade. If they are mounted correctly, and they are not also side-honed, they will be more of a nuisance to sharpen than a standard parallel blade but getting level edges is possible.
I know there used to be options for blades that were both side-honed and parabolic, but I'm not sure if that is still a thing. I'm happy to say that I have never handled a pair, and they seem like they would be a nightmare in terms of finding a consistent datum for finding level. It's common for side-honed blades to be tapered from front to back (Wilson Gold Seal, MK Gold Star...) but not hourglass shaped. I've wondered whether the taper is actually the defining performance feature on the Gold Seal, because on most Gold Seals and Gold Stars that I have seen, the chrome relief band flattens the flared edge (or even angles it the opposite direction in places), so you don't truly have a flared edge, but you still have blades that are difficult to create level edges on. Seems like the Pattern 99 with parallel sides would give you a more consistent experience.
I am hoping to do some of the same experimenting with different blades that Bill did, now that I have had my boots rebuilt and my old boots can be experimented with. Now I "just" need to find the blades...