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On the Ice => Sitting on the Boards Rink Side => Topic started by: falen on January 31, 2011, 09:40:59 PM

Title: usfs ages limits
Post by: falen on January 31, 2011, 09:40:59 PM

dd wants to know what are the various age limits for the competative levels.  I went on the usfs rulebook and the darn thing reads like a court document and I could not find it.  Any help?

Yiles I think i put this is the wrong spot!

Mod edit: It's okay, I moved the thread to the appropriate forum.  It's a good thread, thanks for starting it.

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: Clarice on January 31, 2011, 10:03:04 PM

Juvenile level skaters must be under age 13.  Intermediates must be under age 18.  There are other age restrictions for synchro or adult events, but I don't think that's what you're wanting to know.

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: davincisop on January 31, 2011, 10:42:31 PM

Question... if intermediate is for 18 and under.... and I'm 23.... how would I get to senior levels? Or is there an adult equivalent? :)

I know the levels are:

Pre-Bronze
Bronze
Silver
Gold

but I don't know what's after that....

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: phoenix on January 31, 2011, 11:53:42 PM

Quote from: davincisoprano1 on January 31, 2011, 10:42:31 PM

Question... if intermediate is for 18 and under.... and I'm 23.... how would I get to senior levels? Or is there an adult equivalent? :)

I know the levels are:

Pre-Bronze
Bronze
Silver
Gold

but I don't know what's after that....

If you want to be compete what we call "standard track"--which is w/ the kids, then you would not be able to compete below novice, which is the first level with no age limit. ALTHOUGH-- some competitions do include "open" events, usually open juvenile, which removes the age limit for that group.

If you want to compete as an adult, then you're right, the levels are as you stated. They are separate & have different tests to take, though you may test standard track because there are crossover equivalents.

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: Isk8NYC on February 01, 2011, 12:38:13 AM

Just butting in for a moment: don't confuse competition rules with testing rules.

If you want to take standard-track tests, you can do so at any age.
For Adult tests, you have to be 21 or older.

In competitions, the events are age-restricted.  Adult events are again for those 21 or older, but the standard-track events use the two age cutoffs that Clarice outlined so succinctly.

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: falen on February 01, 2011, 08:41:36 AM

thanks I'll tell her.

Davinci brought up a question in my head.  So for Novice and Junior you can be as young or as old whatever you are...you never can "age out"?  Obviously for senior a skater can be any age, a senior doesn't have to go to adult track right?
 

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: Skittl1321 on February 01, 2011, 08:56:19 AM

You can not age out of novice and junior or senior in the united states.

There are cut offs for the novice and junior levels internationally- but they don't correlate with the USFS tests of those descriptions.  The US has senior level skaters who skate as juniors internationally...  (So if you have Junior Grand Prix aspirations- it's too late.)

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: falen on February 01, 2011, 09:36:46 AM

Quote from: Skittl1321 on February 01, 2011, 08:56:19 AM

There are cut offs for the novice and junior levels internationally- but they don't correlate with the USFS tests of those descriptions.  The US has senior level skaters who skate as juniors internationally...  (So if you have Junior Grand Prix aspirations- it's too late.)

How is that?  I thought it would be the other way around?  Don't people usually skate up, not down?

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: Skittl1321 on February 01, 2011, 09:47:50 AM

Well, internationally, junior is an age level, not a skill level, so they aren't really skating down.  In general, they aren't as good as the seniors- because if you are good enough to skate as a senior, you probably would.  But in countries like the US or Japan, where there are lots of good senior ladies (for example) some of the younger "senior-ability level" skaters will skate as "junior-age level" skaters.  

The problem is that the same word is used to mean two different things.

(Denis Ten, who skates for Kazakstan, I think- went to Junior Worlds and Senior Worlds last year.  He is a junior by age, but his ability allowed him to be a senior, by skill.  There aren't a lot of skaters in his country, so he just did both.)

An example of an American skater would be Richard Dornbush- he skates as a senior in the US (and just got silver at nationals), but all year he has been competiting as an international junior- on the JGP.  Now, however, because he medalled, he'll be going to regular Worlds, not junior worlds.  However, the US had so many men on the Senior Grand Prix, as an unknown, he wouldn't have been able to get assignments, so he skated as a junior.   It's likely if HE had been in third and not second, the US may have sent him to junior worlds, and leap frogged Jeremy Abott over him to go to senior worlds.  But Ross Miner, who placed 3rd, is too old to be eligible for junior worlds- so the "leap frogging" doesn't really work. 

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: falen on February 01, 2011, 11:15:56 AM

wow, my head is spinning! 

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: Sierra on February 01, 2011, 11:21:18 AM

Junior Worlds just means younger. Think of Kid sneakers and Adult sneakers. That's how I always think of it.

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: falen on February 01, 2011, 12:54:02 PM

I love reading your posts Sierra.  You sound so mature and responsible and driven.  Way beyond your years!  I am sure you will go far in whatever you set out to do. :hug002

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: davincisop on February 01, 2011, 01:14:03 PM

My head is spinning, too!  So basically, my plan is to reach my senior levels by the time I'm 30 (fat chance but it's a fun goal), theoretically after I finished adult gold, I'd just jump into the standard track? (I'm 23, I'm in the adult levels because my coach didn't give me a choice lol, just said these are the levels you're doing)

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: Skittl1321 on February 01, 2011, 02:01:57 PM

Yep, once you finish adult gold you can move to intermediate.  Getting senior moves is a realistic goal if you train well.  Senior free might be tougher, but give it a go!

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: Clarice on February 01, 2011, 02:31:11 PM

Quote from: davincisoprano1 on February 01, 2011, 01:14:03 PM

My head is spinning, too!  So basically, my plan is to reach my senior levels by the time I'm 30 (fat chance but it's a fun goal), theoretically after I finished adult gold, I'd just jump into the standard track? (I'm 23, I'm in the adult levels because my coach didn't give me a choice lol, just said these are the levels you're doing)

I agree with your coach!  When you start as an adult, I think it's better to start with the adult levels because it gives you opportunity to compete against other adults.  You're right - when you finish Gold, you move over to the standard track at Intermediate.  You could compete in adult competitions at Masters Intermediate.

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: jjane45 on February 01, 2011, 07:16:51 PM

I actually wonder if there are guesstimates or stats on the following:

1) out of skaters who pass the preliminary freestyle test, what percentage eventually manages to pass the intermediate freestyle test?

2) out of skaters who pass the intermediate freestyle test, what percentage passes the senior freestyle test?

Any guesses? Since USFS membership is required to test, I am hoping it's *slightly* easier to find out than say, figuring out what percentage of high school basketball players eventually make it to NBA? :D

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: fsk8r on February 02, 2011, 04:12:49 AM

Quote from: davincisoprano1 on February 01, 2011, 01:14:03 PM

My head is spinning, too!  So basically, my plan is to reach my senior levels by the time I'm 30 (fat chance but it's a fun goal), theoretically after I finished adult gold, I'd just jump into the standard track? (I'm 23, I'm in the adult levels because my coach didn't give me a choice lol, just said these are the levels you're doing)

Just because you're in your 20s and aiming for seniors isn't that stupid an idea. I was watching Europeans and noted that I'm a similar age as Sinead Kerr (she's over 30). OK, she's way better than me, but had I started training earlier in my 20s, I could be getting up the test system faster.

If you did manage to get to the senior levels, there's nothing to stop you competing. OK you might not place well, but at least you'll have got out there to compete.

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: phoenix on February 02, 2011, 12:06:59 PM

Quote from: jjane45 on February 01, 2011, 07:16:51 PM

I actually wonder if there are guesstimates or stats on the following:

1) out of skaters who pass the preliminary freestyle test, what percentage eventually manages to pass the intermediate freestyle test?

2) out of skaters who pass the intermediate freestyle test, what percentage passes the senior freestyle test?

I believe I heard once that of all the skaters who enroll in Basic Skills / learn to skate classes, 1% will go on to test pre-pre moves.

And I think I've also heard of the ones who get through pre-pre moves, 5% of those will get through senior (but that seems like a low number to me.)

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: davincisop on February 02, 2011, 01:15:07 PM

You are right about testing faster. I skated when I was younger but quit after a few years and started back up two years ago and started taking lessons back in July. I passed pre bronze moves abd freestyle in november and I'm testing bronze moves at the end of this month (not sure about freestyle yet)

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: jjane45 on February 02, 2011, 02:37:33 PM

Thank you Phoenix! Initially I thought 1% from LTS to pre-pre is extremely low, then realized it's the population that isn't quite "hooked" or just take lessons for fun without the intention to test / compete (myself included).

If the skater is at intermediate (axel and one double), that shows talent and determination already. What are the odds to obtain the jumps up to double lutz in order to make it to senior freestyle test? I am thinking with high school age skaters timing is a huge factor, as many quit skating when they go to college.

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: Query on February 02, 2011, 08:02:45 PM

Adults can learn to skate well too.

As far as I know, my former coach, Barbara,

  http://www.icedancepro.com/mainindex.html
  http://www.skatequest.com/ourcoaches_figure.html

did all or most of her competing after age 30 or so, though I don't know her exact age.

I believe she tested standard track, and also did well at USFSA and ISU Adult competitions.

Last I knew, she had lots of students, and is an excellent coach.

Granted, she hasn't gone to standard track Nationals, AFAIK, but it shows that adults can learn things too.

On the freestyle side, I've heard some people do triple jumps at USFSA Adult Nationals.

If we take these as "typical" adult examples, you should very soon be doing these sort of things, with just a itsy bitsy teensy weeny bit of work.

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: jjane45 on February 02, 2011, 09:52:36 PM

Query, do you know if Barbara started skating as a kid or an adult? From her webpage she tested up to novice (double salchow, double toe, double loop), which is a great achievement if she started as an adult.

Do coaches who grew up skating usually have junior or senior test under their belt? Sorry I really have no clue. My guess is technically most were capable of them but did not test up to stay competitive? Such a discrepancy between competition level and test level!

Triple jumps at Adult Nationals generally come from skaters who skated competitively as children though. Far from typical for an average adult skater.

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: Query on February 03, 2011, 05:35:41 PM

Quote from: jjane45 on February 02, 2011, 09:52:36 PM

Query, do you know if Barbara started skating as a kid or an adult?

Don't know. Ask her. Think she said she didn't get serious until she was an adult.

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: Query on February 05, 2011, 07:48:19 AM

BTW, Masters level tests (age 50+) exist too, for Dance and Moves in the Field.

The Test Book

  http://usfsa.org/Content/2010-11%20Tests%20Book.pdf

has a lot of these rules and is somewhat easier to read than The RuleBook.

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: Isk8NYC on February 05, 2011, 02:19:46 PM

But the Tests Book is for tests, not competitions.  The OP asked about competititions, so for that, you need to check the Rulebook, regardless of how difficult it is to read. 

I just use the PDF version and search for the phrase I need to find. 

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: Debbie S on February 08, 2011, 12:28:28 PM

Sorry, I'm a little late to this discussion, but wanted to add some things.

It sounds like the OP got her questions answered - since it's her daughter who is competing, I assume we're talking about a kid, so yes, the age limits that would affect her are those for Juv (under 13) and Intermediate (under 18). The lower levels (No-Test, Pre-Prelim, Prelim, and Pre-Juv) and the higher levels (Novice, Junior, Senior) have no age limits. FYI, these are spelled out in the rulebook in the competitions section - just flip through until you see descriptions/rules for each level. Music rules are there, too.

As for adult comps, the various test levels are divided by age for comp purposes, as long as there are enough skaters at each level. Usually that only happens in the all-adult comps, and of course Sectionals and AN (although age groups can be combined at ref's discretion). Adult levels are Pre-Bronze, Bronze, Silver, Gold, and Masters. Masters is for those who have passed Intermediate FS or higher. Most of those people skated as kids and either passed to that level as kids, or tested up through a lower level (Pre-Juv, Juv, etc) as kids and continued their testing as adults. Adult skaters who started as kids have varying experiences - some never stopped (for high school, college, etc) and some stopped for a while and took it up again. It's always interesting to talk to other adults and hear about their experiences; often, no two skaters are the same. :)

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: Debbie S on February 08, 2011, 12:49:30 PM

OK, continuing... Sorry about multiple posts but I hate how the screen jumps around once you fill the initial box.

There are no age restrictions on adult skating or testing. When an adult skater has tested through Gold, he/she can move on to Intermediate. Theoretically, they could test all the way through Senior Moves and Freestyle. However, for a variety of reasons, most adult-onset skaters don't make it that far. Generally, the younger one starts skating, the further they will go in skills and tests passed. There are always exceptions, but learning double and triple jumps as an adult is rare. Most adult-onset skaters struggle with getting a clean axel, regardless of their basic skating skills. I know of adult skaters who have passed Int and Novice Moves whose axel is not clean and/or consistent. Passing the higher-level MIF tests is also very challenging. From what I've seen, most adults who pass Gold and put in a fair amount of practice time (at least 3 times a week) can usually pass Intermediate. But Novice is a whole other level. I imagine that's what prompted the rule change to have Adult and Masters options when testing Int MIF and higher. It will be interesting to see if this improves the passing rates. I'm speaking anecdotally here, just thinking about what I've witnessed firsthand. I have no knowledge of any specific numbers.

So triple, even double, jumps as an adult is most certainly not "typical". To suggest that is demonstrating total ignorance of adult skating and adult skaters. And looking at query's coach's bio, it is obvious that the woman began skating as a kid. It says she passed 6th Figure, and Novice FS. I believe 6th Figure directly corresponded to Novice, no? It appears that her adult competitive career involved Dance, not FS. Perhaps she didn't start testing dance until she was an adult - that is not unusual - I have an adult skater friend who got through 7th Figure (tested 8th a few times but didn't pass it) before she went to college and returned many years later, after med school and residency - and began testing dance. She competed in FS as a kid but did not want to go back to jumping when she was older. She has passed through Gold and is now working on int'ls. I also know of a coach who competed in both singles and pairs growing up and started testing dance as an adult, simply to have that credential on her coaching resume. I don't think she plans to teach dance, though.

Seeing as query takes dance lessons (at least, he has posted as such), it makes sense that his coach would be speaking about dance when referring to her experience.

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: Debbie S on February 08, 2011, 12:59:01 PM

One final note: someone asked about coach credentials. It varies, depending on the rink and quality of the program, but most coaches have passed either high-level Figures or MIF tests as well as FS. Dance coaches almost always have passed through Gold level, either in the U.S. or their country of origin. Many (non-dance) coaches in my area have "gold medals" (meaning passed the Senior/highest test) in multiple disciplines - Figures and FS, or MIF and FS, depending on their age, and sometimes Dance as well. A couple of coaches competed in Pairs and so have high-level pairs tests, too. Lack of a gold medal doesn't mean the coach isn't skilled. Generally, when choosing a coach, you want to look for a combo of tests and experience. Also, many coaches have taken PSA (coaches' certification org) ratings exams in various disciplines - this is not a requirement but many coaches do it to enhance their credentials. You should also try to watch the coach in action to observe his/her teaching style and talk to his/her students and/or parents to find out about their experience.

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: jjane45 on February 08, 2011, 02:23:27 PM

Thank you Debbie S, tons of valuable information!

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: falen on February 08, 2011, 03:44:59 PM

Yes thanks.  Lots of info.  And to answer your question yes dd is 10.   And now she is calculating how long to "spend" on each level and asking for more ice, lessons... :bash

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: Query on February 08, 2011, 05:51:12 PM

Quote from: Debbie S on February 08, 2011, 12:49:30 PM

Seeing as query takes dance lessons (at least, he has posted as such), it makes sense that his coach would be speaking about dance when referring to her experience.

Barbara is my previous coach. She is a wonderful coach, and I felt bad giving her up, but I generally spent most of a day getting to and from where she taught. My current coach is Anna Nykiel, who teaches where I skate. She is pretty good too, but she got serious about skating while young.

I've met people who learned to do doubles as adults. One wanted to do triples by age 65 - don't know if she made it. She took several lessons per week from very expensive coaches, and for all I know never went home. One started skating as an adult, and did nice triple axels, but she had already done triples in ballet, which she learned young. Another had been a gymnast and could still do gymnastic double jumps on the floor, and worked as a gymnastic coach. Another, who only got up to axels, AFAIK, was a ballroom dance instructor and childhood ballroom dance competitor. None of these people (Barbara included) are typical adult beginners.

I didn't mean to imply imply that most adults can learn to do the fancy stuff. I've come to realize that even most kids can't, and drop out of skating lessons within a relatively short time.

Most of the adult beginners I know are afraid to jump at all, as I would be if I had any common sense.

I would love to do a clean single jump. But Anna doesn't like my Waltz Jumps.

What we need are pills that teach us everything about skating, and give us athletic 18 year old bodies.

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: Debbie S on February 08, 2011, 09:49:48 PM

Quote from: Query on February 08, 2011, 05:51:12 PM

One started skating as an adult, and did nice triple axels, but she had already done triples in ballet, which she learned young.

I highly doubt any adult-onset skater, particularly a "she", did a triple axel, given that 99% of elite female skaters have never landed one. There have been 2 in U.S. skating history, and several more from other countries. Perhaps your friend the prodigy did double axels, but even that I doubt. 88)

Quote

I didn't mean to imply imply that most adults can learn to do the fancy stuff.

Then why did you post this:

Quote

On the freestyle side, I've heard some people do triple jumps at USFSA Adult Nationals.

If we take these as "typical" adult examples, you should very soon be doing these sort of things, with just a itsy bitsy teensy weeny bit of work.

How about sparing us all from your garbage? Seriously.  88)

Quote

What we need are pills that teach us everything about skating

Yes, you do need to learn a lot about skating.

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: jjane45 on February 08, 2011, 10:16:19 PM

Query is an awesome boot specialist and many benefit from his "falling gently" page. People can learn something new from each other everyday, that's part of the fun participating in forum discussions, no? :) Again, thank you everyone for the inputs!

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: Debbie S on February 09, 2011, 09:16:20 AM

Quote from: jjane45 on February 08, 2011, 10:16:19 PM

Query is an awesome boot specialist

I'm not sure how you define "specialist" but you may want to reconsider that view. Remember that anyone can post something on a message board - just posting that they are an expert doesn't make them one. I've been on boards for a while, and I've seen a lot of trolls and random people posting drivel that sounds all technical but makes no sense and can't be backed up. When it comes to serious issues like boots and blades, injury prevention, etc, it's fine to read about others' experiences but best to follow the advice of people you know for a fact are qualified in those areas.

Title: Re: usfs ages limits
Post by: Isk8NYC on February 09, 2011, 10:13:27 AM

I think we're done here.