skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: rd350 on February 14, 2015, 11:38:22 PM
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I have broken in my Harlicks way more than when I last posted but I am still having issues with numbness, cramping and freezing toes. Phil said he could soften the tongues for me but I am going to hold off a bit more since I am now tolerating wearing the skates much longer (so getting more time in quicker, not spending it all on the bench retying). My fitter wants me to put them on in the house and see if I get numb AND freezing toes too, to see if it's a temperature thing with the boots or from going numb. I need to do that tomorrow, just been busy.
I noticed this past week I am cramping in my (especially right) arch quickly and easily. I went back to loosening more and still am not tying the top 2 hooks. In trying to work through it and stay on the ice longer, I noticed if I just glide on my left and lift my right foot off the ice it immediately gives me a bit of relief and then I shake it out.
This leads me to think that maybe it's the insoles. I am using yellow super feet and had those in my Reidell Royals as well (and also cramping predominantly on the right in those). Does that make sense? I feel like it's when I put weight down and so maybe the insole support is just not cutting it. I have good arches, if anything I supinate a bit.
Ideas on soles I could possibly try out?
Thinking of going for an orthotics eval but want to try some OTC soles first.
TIA!
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Just pushing this post up.... :D
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When I got my Edeas, I cramped alot and in my arches. It started about 5 to 10 minutes into skating and was very unbearable. I went to a podiatrist and he told me that it was lactic acid building up from the overworking of my feet. I have suffered from plantar fasciitis in the past and have to wear orthotics at the gym. On a treadmill, my toes would go numb too. In my Edeas, my toes were going numb. I had to stretch out the ball of my skate area more, and then the numbing went mainly away. But, the big trick for me was to get custom orthotics to support my arch. I could have went with trying the "yellow feet" insoles. I understand that the black insoles made by the same company actually offer more support. I suggest you take out your Harlick insoles and replace with either Yellow Feet or the Black versions. If that doesn't work, then go to a podiatrist. If you have insurance, you might get the insoles for your skates specially made. But, my insoles were not covered by insurance and were $700ish in total.
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Thanks Neverdull. I never had Harlick insoles. We decided to go with the yellow superfeet off the bat.
I am doing to take my skates and see if the black ones will fit inside and I can wear them a bit in the store with guards and see. I think the yellow superfeet were so much better than - well I apparently had no insoles in my old boots at all and didn't realize (don't ask me how), that I "thought they well good but they're probably just not.
I will ask the Sports Med doc what he thinks and consider orthotics. I am thinking, even though I supinate, I am not "meeting" the insoles 100% and therefore my foot has to "work" so cramps.
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I'll check if my insurance covers them too!
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I am thinking, even though I supinate, I am not "meeting" the insoles 100% and therefore my foot has to "work" so cramps.
I tried to reply earlier on my phone but it ate my response and I didn't feel like typing it all out with my thumbs again, but this is exactly what I was going to suggest - any empty space under your foot (or around it, honestly) will ultimately cause pain/problems.
In some cases the solution is simple - for example, I have higher arches , so I add extra arch support, and that solves the problem for me. For others the solution might not be as obvious/easy, and in that case I would absolutely suggest working with someone who can work with you to get the results you need.
One caution though, your boots may have been built with enough extra space to accomodate an orthotic (it's possible, if they knew you planned on using superfeet initially) but you have to make sure that whoever ultimately makes your orthotics knows that they need to be made low profile, and to fit within your skating boot, which is not flexible where the sides meet the sole like a shoe, and doesn't have a lot of "give" in terms of total volume. I've seen a lot of cases at my own rink where orthotics were too wide or too thick/tall to fit within a skate, and had to be remade... so if you can get them done right initially that will save yourself a lot of time :)
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Thanks sarahspins!
What did you do for your arches yourself? I'm going to play around with it here first but will get assessed anyway. I got very lucky my sport medicine doc's mother was a professional figure skater, so besides knowing sports med, he gets figure skating. But I'm sure he doesn't do orthotics so hopefully he can get me a good recommendation.
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As you probably know by now, my web page has some descriptions on altering fit through insoles, which likely covers cramping issues. I've recently been experimenting a lot with warmer insoles. I want to play a little more before finalizing this on my website, but here is where I am so far:
Here are the things I am experimenting with, to make my boots warmer:
1. If the boots can be heat molded to fit you better, do so.
2. Pick a good thick (as thick as you can - this helps a LOT) foam insole as a starting point. E.g., the $4 bi-layer Dr. Scholls from the drug stores. The materials that most of the really expensive insoles are made of are lousy thermal insulators, and have no advantages that I can find. (Exception: molded insoles, including the ones that many podiatrists use, are faster to fit. But they probably aren't very warm.) (Foam, especially closed cell foam, is close to the best insulator there is, way better than leather, rubber, solid plastic, wool, etc.) Do NOT pick an insole that says "cool".
3. Adjust fit (at high pressure points) by cutting away parts of the lower density layer (the one that has bigger air bubbles), not by adding tape. At low pressure points, add more foam, not tape. On my web page, I said to use tape, which is easier and faster, but foam is warmer.
4. Make sure your insole covers the entire bottom of the boot, including toes. An uncovered portion leaks a lot of heat.
5. Likewise, fill the toe end, just beyond your toes, with foam. Open air spaces there loses you a lot heat, due to "convection".
6. If the sides of the boot near the bottom aren't tight against your foot, oversize the insole a little so it climbs up the sides of the boot a bit.
7. I am currently experimenting with adding an aluminum foil reflective layer under the foam, cut to the same shape as the insole. I won't go into the physics, other than to say it is an infrared radiant heat reflector. I didn't think it would help, because the foam insoles are white (which is somewhat reflective and tends to suppress radiation anyway), and I am still experimenting, but I think it may help.
8. Warm your boots to about body temperature (98.6 deg F or 37 deg C) before putting them on. Use a rest-room hand warmer, a hair drier, or a microwaved sock full of rice in your boots. This is huge.
9. Consider neoprene boot covers.
10. I may give up on hand and foot warmers. Better insulation works better for me - but for people with extremely poor insulation, they may still make sense.
11. Skate at rinks with warmer ice and warmer air. Don't skate outdoors. :) I'm sometimes breaking those rules - which is the reason I'm working on making my boots warmer.
Stay warm!
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My daughter has custom Harlicks as well, but we went with competitor level stiffness so hers are softer then yours. Even those seemed really stiff and she said they felt like blocks. She has the flex notches and we cut the back down by 1/2" to give her as much flexibility as possible. She is pretty 'light' in her boots and hardly creases them even though she now skates 2-3 hours 5 days a week.
She still needed some extra softening after the break-in period. We weren't worried about early break-down of skates because she'll outgrow them first, we just wanted them to break-in as fast as possible so she could get the most out of her lessons. I rolled the tongue and bent and rolled the upper part of the skate in and out in the lace hook/ankle area like our tech showed us. The tongue seemed particularly stiff, so I spent lots of time on that just rolling it up and down in my hands. Our tech felt the tongues were a bit high so he cut them down so they didn't ride as high up her shins and I think that helped as well.
She needs a retie at least twice every time she skates. Our process is tie - 4-5 laps, tie again - 4-5 laps, a spin, and a few jumps, tie again and that usually does it. I think it just has to do with how warm the boots are because I have quite a bit more lace each time yet I'm pulling my hardest from the beginning. She uses all cotton laces, the nylon were terrible for her. Every once in awhile she comes back off the ice for me to loosen them because she starts cramping up when I've gotten them too tight. It is a bit of a hassle, but we just plan an extra 15 minutes before a lesson to get her boots right. Once they are perfect, I get a big smile, the thumbs up, and she can skate all day.
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My doctor explained that if he could bend or pinch the insole with his hand, they were not right for my issues. Body weight on just foam, squishes to the point of no support. My orthotics are amazing to skate in. I am so much more comfortable and efficient. If you have a pro-hockey team in your area, their coaches may know the local guru who fits orthotics for skates. Also, Evan Lycacek's uses a podiatrist in the Chicago area for his orthotics. He's on Mr. Edge's page. Since I had mine done, I found another orthotics making center who would make them for me for about $300. But, I have mine and am happy with them They will last for several years.
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Thanks Neverdull. I have a PT friend who is a foot expert and treats primarily dancers. I will ask her what she thinks and if she knows anyone who really knows skating but I think I would trust her 1000%. I'll contact her as well as the Sports Doc whose mother was a pro figure skater and ask at the rink. I'm doing an edge class now given by the Ice Theater. I bet someone there will know if all else fails. They are mostly professionals in the class. One would think I could get this done in NYC!
@DressmakingMomma hmm this is interesting. So you didn't send them back for Phil to soften the tongues. I'm trying to picture what you mean by rolling. Mine is soooo stiff it took me 40 minutes to change the laces because I couldn't get the tongues out of the way! I also do have my expert fitter I can go to in NJ. He told me to check/do a few things and then I can come in to him if needed. I would hate to send the boots to Phil and be without them for a couple of weeks but I will if I have to.
@query The Transpack heated bags look so amazing but at $200 I don't think I can do it. I don't own a microwave and don't have a dryer in my apartment. Trying to think how I can heat the boots up other the hand dryers at the rink but I will try that. It's so crazy cold here and I take public transportation when skating in the city so am outside a lot on the way there. I couldn't find the area on your website with the insole info. Can you give me the link? Thanks!
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Hmm, all my NYC apartments were ridiculously overheated. Is yours? You could fill a pair of socks with rice and leave them on the radiator, then stick them in your boots. Or maybe you can boil the gel ice/hot packs in water instead of microwaving them?
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I'm going to get some of those hot gel packs.
I went and bought "Sole" insoles that meet my arch. I cut and heat molded them and starting cramping on the right, in my apartment. >:( I'm going to try them on the ice anyway and see what happens. Standing, even walking in the apartment on guards isn't exactly the same. They have some thinsulate insulation at the bottom too, so was hoping I'd be warmer too. Will see on ice later this week.
Remolded them and seem better. Wish I could skate tomorrow.
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rd350, as long as you have a cooktop on which you can boil a largish saucepan of water, the reuseable gel heat packs may be good for you.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-X-BEST-REUSABLE-HOT-COLD-PACKS-SMALL-HEAT-PACK-INSTANT-HEAT-PACKS-/140466483507?pt=AU_Massage_Beauty_Equipment&hash=item20b4747133 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-X-BEST-REUSABLE-HOT-COLD-PACKS-SMALL-HEAT-PACK-INSTANT-HEAT-PACKS-/140466483507?pt=AU_Massage_Beauty_Equipment&hash=item20b4747133).
These ones are very similar to the ones I use for competition, when I have no access to a microwave to preheat my bean-filled socks, at the time I would want my boots to be warmed. They're excellent - I use 2 per boot. They attain max heat quite quickly, and the heat lasts for about an hour, so plenty of time for your boots to warm up. Once you're home, you boil them in a saucepan on the cook-top for about 15-20 minutes, or until the contents re-liquefy and all the crystals are dissolved.
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I have one of these tucked into the zuca. I use it to heat the boot overall from the inside or to spot heat something that is bugging her. No need for a microwave and you can use it at the rink. It doesn't get as hot as a workshop heat gun so I don't worry so much about ruining her boots.
http://www.amazon.com/Nicole--Multi-purpose-Perfect-Embossing-Drying/dp/B006Z9LUDG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424177711&sr=8-1&keywords=craft+heat+gun (http://www.amazon.com/Nicole--Multi-purpose-Perfect-Embossing-Drying/dp/B006Z9LUDG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424177711&sr=8-1&keywords=craft+heat+gun)
Use your skate tech as well, we are heading into ours because she went through a small foot growth (boots still fit, thank goodness) but her heel won't sink all the way back now and she is banging her toes on jumps. If you have a good tech, then he's seen it all and can probably offer some advice. Good Luck!
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I've always just used the insoles that came with the Harlicks, so I'm not of any use there. However, if your feet are cramping, make sure you are not pulling too tightly over the arch area. When I'm breaking boots in, I pull tighter over the toes, looser over the arch, then tighter again just before the hooks. Tying too tight over the arch can definitely make your foot cramp. Then, as the skates loosen up, you can start tying it tighter again.
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Thanks everyone! I am definitely ordering the gel packs!
Interesting @TreSk8sAZ, my fitter said not to tie tight (or even pull at all) at the toes - to the 4th hole. I definitely cramp from over-tying at the arch so I never do and was still cramping the last 2 skates.
Regarding insoles GREEN SUPERFEET DEFINITELY DO NOT WORK in figure skates, which it too bad. In physical therapy, we have a lot of functional tests we can do while someone is standing on their insoles or orthotics and these are by far the best for me. I think I'm going to keep them for street boots. My core and responses are pretty solid on these! Anyway, they are too wide and too high profile. You can't cut the width down enough because the plastic/composite/whatever the harder material is, is there.
I put the SOLES insoles back in and they are pretty comfortable in the apartment. I am really hoping to skate tomorrow morning and test them out. I'll warm up the inside of the boots in the bathroom with the hand drying and these insoles have a Thinsulate layer on the bottom so hoping I'll be overall warmer too. Since these insoles are heat moldable, maybe they'll tweak some while they're hot.
Cool I found similar gel packs here. http://www.amazon.com/HEAT-WAVE-Instant-Reusable-Heat/dp/B000E48LVM
And a fun DIY http://lifehacker.com/make-your-own-reusable-diy-hot-ice-hand-warmers-1516087373.
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Gel packs are poor thermal insulators. So they may actually make the boot feel colder. Likewise for the heat molded insoles.
That's what is nice about foam - but you have to cut it to the shape needed, which takes time.
A cheap hair drier will work fine to warm the boot or rice sock up - you don't need anything special. Except for the initial heat molds, you don't want the boots much warmer than body temperature, because that will re-heat mold them every time - which speeds boot break down, and while your feet aren't in them, they will heat mold to the wrong shape.
My experience with foot warmers in the boot has been that I had to remove the insoles to fit them - which made the boot colder. But if you you have a lot of space inside your boot (so the foot warmers would fit - in which case thicker foam insoles that provide more insulation would also fit, and may be better), or you have very poor circulation (so that insulation isn't enough to keep your feet warm), then foot warmers make sense.
OTOH, I successfully used the chemical hand or foot warmers in XC ski boots, which had more space - though it didn't occur to me to try a thicker foam insole. I suspect that would have worked at least as well there too.
These (http://www.amazon.com/HotHands-Insole-Foot-Warmers-pairs/dp/B001UQXAT6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424209698&sr=8-1&keywords=foot+warmer+insole) and similar foot warmer/insoles might cover more of the foot - pricey, but they sort of make sense. Though I don't see how to size them.
The "Right" solution to the cold at ice rinks is Kurt Vonnegut's "Ice 9" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice-nine) - to give us nice slippery ice at room temperature. :) Without, of course, the bad side effects.
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Hmm well the Soles insoles have thinsulate on the underside. We'll see. I do not have a lot of room in the boots. They are custom and the insoles are not that easy to get in, though not so hard that I risk damage to the boots.
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The "Right" solution to the cold at ice rinks is Kurt Vonnegut's "Ice 9" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice-nine) - to give us nice slippery ice at room temperature. :) Without, of course, the bad side effects.
Sounds good to me! ;D
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The jury is out on the Soles insoles. I went to Bryant Park rink uber cold ice (14 degrees, wind chill 0 so very, very hard) because it was free and there was no good ice elsewhere, just to try out the insoles. I think they may take up a tad too much up and down space but I didn't stay on long (altercation with some kids with their hands on my lock at the locker and their friends trying to block it from site - they got thrown out and I got nervous about them). I'm going to give it another try on good ice. I did cramp a bit when I got off the ice initially (5 minutes after I got on due to resurfacing) but I stopped cramping during the altercation!! Interesting!! I guess I was sufficiently distracted.
On my way to the subway I saw a very old shoe shop/orthotist and thought I would go in (had my skates with me) as they lasted somehow. The orthotist is convinced my issue is NOT the insoles but my back (L2-3 and femoral nerve impingement - no, he didn't look at my spine). I really have no back issues! He thinks I would find I did, if I looked, as in some tests. I'm not rushing for x-rays but will keep this in mind for sure. He also pointed out that although I have a high arch and supinate some, that in the middle of step-through I really drop into pronation. I knew this but wasn't thinking it was an issue in the skates because we don't step through in the same way as walking. Anyone have any thoughts on that?
He does think I would benefit from orthotics and said he made JoJo Starbuck's orthotics or skates or both - I can't remember, years ago, LOL. It's $450. I'm obviously going to check him out and also get referrals from all the people I can ask that should know. It'll be interesting to see if my PT friend who primarily treats dancers knows who he is. He's been doing it about 40 years he said.
I will end up going to whomever my friend and doc recommend but this was interesting.
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The guy who made my orthotics, watched me walk & run, looked at my street shoe wear, took out my skating insoles to see the wear pattern. I turn one foot as I walk . . . . he picked up on alot of strange things. Orthotic doctors must be fun at a cocktail party It was an hour+ visit, and then he made impressions and took my skates away from me. My orthotics fit perfectly into my skate. He was able to turn my one foot slightly to help my navicular bone. The orthotics are a little ground at the back, so as to really sit into the footbed. It's definitely an art that they do.
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For sure. I have to find just the right person. Wish I could see your orthotist!
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He's semi-retired, but ls in the Tampa, Florida area! Anyway, ask around with your pro or semi-pro hockey guys, especially. Figure skaters are usually young and without foot issues. I found my orthotic maker through my local podiatrist, actually. The orthotic maker did some orthotics for the local rinks, including a national pairs team.
Good luck!
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Thanks @neverdull!
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Insole update + your thoughts?
So I really spent some time skating with the Soles insoles that have more arch support (my arch is neutral - slight supination) today and although I wasn't cramping immediately, it came on by about 10-15 minutes and then I cramped in both arches. I don't think I ever really cramp on the left (either in these new, or my old boots). The Sole insoles have a layer of thinsulate on the underside and I have to say I was considerably warmer. I switched back to the yellow superfeet at ice cut and they actually felt a lot better and I went back to only cramping on the right (I think it was less than with the Soles but can't remember for sure) but I got numb and freezing quite quickly.
It's a little confusing. I would think I'd get numb quicker in the Soles since they take up more room in the skate. However, when I put the yellow superfeet back in I had already been numb from skating and I do know they get numb faster after I've already been on the ice and gone numb once, even if I've rested with my boots off for 10 minutes.
I'm pretty frustrated right now. I still only have about 20 hours on ice in the Harlicks. I e-mailed my fitter. I'm hesitant to send the boots back to have the tongue softened because I'm not sure that this is why I am getting numb. How do you know for sure what's causing what?
And the cold issue. I find it hard to believe new Harlicks have less insulation than 20+ year old Reidell Royals. I only ever got cold in those if I was standing around too long chatting, not while skating and moving.
Any thoughts? Suggestions? I'm getting a bit frustrated here. TIA!
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What the podiatrist told me is that the cramping was lactic acid building up in my foot because the muscles were overworking to compensate (for not being seated right at the bottom).
I "almost" never cramp in my custom orthotics. I did mildly cramp the other day, when I was working on a new entrance to a loop jump (double outside edges). My feet were not relaxed, and I was straining to do the jump. But other than that, I am pretty comfortable.
Does Harlick make a custom molded footbed? Can they change the arch? Don't put up with the pain. Worse things could happen . . . . like my protruding navicular bone now, that, to remove, involves surgery and down time. Get the fitter & a podiatrist involved.
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I love my Sole insoles. Is there any chance your new boots are just a little too narrow for you? I have a high instep and my feet are a little wide in the front and every time I've gotten boots that were a tad too narrow in the mid and forefoot, my feet have cramped and/or circulation to the toes has gotten cut off. As soon as I got boots that were 1/2 width wider, I had no cramping problems, even in my first week in them.
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Yeah I e-mailed the fitter and am going to see him. Having a little issue with my car at the moment but hopefully will resolve quickly and can drive out there as soon as he has time.
I also e-mailed my Sports Med doc about orthotics to see if either he eval's for them or has a referral (preferably someone with skate experience).
This is such a process. Who knew with custom skates!
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I don't think so @doubletoe but what do I know? LOL I feel like a detective trying to figure out what's causing what. They are custom and they feel good until I tie them and skate. That's why I keep thinking it the uber-stiff tongue - as far as the numbness and cold go. I assume the cramping is the insole..... maybe.... sigh.
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Lol I'm totally with you - I can never figure out what is causing what either, skate wise!
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I just heard back from the orthopedist. He said the guy he recommends doesn't take any insurance and I read a review (from a NY Times article on orthotics) from someone saying her orthotics from him were "very expensive" and weren't comfortable at all. Sigh.... I'll call and see how much. I'm better it's more than my custom skates! And blades! I'm not a huge fan of podiatrists. I prefer an orthopedist that specializes in this. Wish I'd gotten more than one name. I will ask for more.
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http://www.askmredge.com/medical-advisory-staff.php#RobertWeil
When I was going through this mess, I found Dr. Weil. I e-mailed him. He called me back, we chatted, and he sent me his specs for figure skating orthotics. My local podiatrist knew of him. Dr. Weil is, apparently, an icon in the foot world. Evan Lysacek has been a patient of Dr. Weil for a long time. I didn't go see Dr. Weil, because he was assured that a local fitter could do it. I found a man in Tampa that was, literally, on the verge of retiring. After I had him made my orthotics, then another orthotic maker (the place where the orthotics are made, not just a doctor's office) here in Fort Myers said that they also made sports orthotics and could do Dr. Weil's instructions for me. My regular podiatrist works in an office with orthopedic surgeons. The surgeon wants to cut, and the podiatrist usually wants to fix the shoe.
A long time ago, I had a gangleon cyst and my bauer bump. I went to an office with both podiatrist and surgeons. The podiatrist gave me a shot of cortisone and fixed my boot up right (Reidell). The surgeon cut up my tendon that wraps around my left ankle where the cyst was at It took a while to heal correctly, and I couldn't lutz or camel well for a long time. But both professionals are needed and good.
It could be that the boot is too narrow. Have the fitter pull out the insole and look at your imprint on both of your feet. Do things look squished in the imprint?
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Let me try saying this again.
Before you spend a lot of money - go get a cheap thin flexible insole from your local drugstore - $1 or $2. Pull out the old insole, trace the old insole on top of it, and cut to match the old insole shape. The new insole will replace the old one. Add layers of tape underneath where you need support. You can tell you need support if part of the underside of the foot has less pressure of contact with that part of the insole. If it would take too many layers of tape to bother, use adhesive foam, like Moleskin. If any spots have excess pressure, cut or sand some of the foam underneath those spots. That's it.
It will take 5 or 10 minutes for both feet.
The fixes most people's problems. Try it and see if the pain goes away.
It's not black magic. If you need to support part of your foot using muscle strength, instead of resting it on your insole, that represents a continuous muscle use, which will make it sore, if you do that long enough. Likewise, if your foot is naturally higher or lower at an arch than the bottom of the boot, that will over-stretch muscles or ligaments, which will eventually make you sore - and will be detectable because there will be less or greater pressure on the underside of the foot there. It's really very simple, and very easy to do.
There are a few people who are more comfortable using a sideways blade offset than the above technique to balance your foot. I honestly don't understand how that is possible, but it's a fact that some people are.
The podiatrist may well be right that you have a back problem too - but what I'm talking about is really basic stuff which will probably fit the immediate problem.
If a podiatrist can't make people comfortable, than he isn't meeting one of the most basic criteria a podiatrist is expected to meet. If the above procedures don't eliminate the pain, ask other people in the skating or dance (especially ballet) communities who did a good job with them.
As far as warmth, as I said before, a closed cell foam insole will be far warmer than anything you talked about. Make sure the shape you cut covers the whole bottom of the boot, because any uncovered portion will make your feet cold. Dr. Scholls Air Pillow insoles aren't all closed cell foam, but are close enough to work fairly well - they cost $4 rather than $1 or $2, but may be worth it. If you have enough space, the closed cell foam foam pads that some rug stores provide are pure closed-cell foam, and are therefore warmer.
(They are closed cell foam if they are rated something like "10 or 20 pound" - it has to do with the pressure needed to squeeze the closed cell foam. Open cell foams, which are much easier to compress, and are often used in commercial installations, aren't as warm. Many closed cell foams are "memory foam" - I'm not sure if that helps.)
Both the Air Pillow and the carpet pad may be thick enough that you will have to cut it down from underneath in spots so your feet aren't too tight. That substitutes for selectively adding tape in places, and is foam is warmer than tape.
Try these things, and I bet it solves your problems.
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Hmm okay will it say closed cell foam on the package? I thought that is what the fitter put under the yellow superfeet but I could be wrong.
I have tried adding moleskin to where I need support. It's a thin-ish long-ish area that isn't contacting and with all the layers of moleskin it took, it was more like "steps" of layers rather than a smooth transition. I'll try again! I'm usually really good at this stuff! Maybe I'm better at helping others than myself....
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Here's what in there. The foam is under the yellow superfeet and fits perfectly.
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Anyone seen this or know anyone who's tried it?
http://www.westsideskate.com/improve-your-performance-with-sidas-custom-insoles/
Tried building up the arch a bit more on the insoles I posted photos of then took some out. I need more material in a better size and will play with it some more.
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Regular EVA craft foam is nice to play with - it really WON'T hold up over long-term use (because it eventually compresses - but it takes a month or more, a few sessions on the ice won't do much while you are figuring it out) without modification, but when you are trying to figure out a solution it's certainly cheap and easy.. and eventually you will end up with enough compressed layers that you no longer need to add more :)
Most craft stores (Michael's, Hobby Lobby, Joann's, etc) sell it for well under $1 a sheet for the 1mm and 2mm thicknesses. Occasionally you will find thicker 3mm and even 5mm, but I've had the best results with the thinner stuff in terms of adjustability. You can just tape it down where you need it with athletic tape.
That said, I've found that this style of arch support (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004XVNS9W/)works really well for me regardless of the insoles on my skates (I've yet to find any that offer "enough" arch support - even Phil Khun with Harlick suggested that I would be better off sticking with these if they were working well than opting for their orthopedic inserts - and yes, you read that right, he talked me out of ordering a fairly pricey option with my boots).. I use a small on my left foot and a medium on my right because that's just what works for me (I also have a jackson insole in my left Harlick boot, which in part accounts for the need for a smaller added arch support). I've also used the pedag ones linked below in the "frequently bought together".
Good news is though, once you figure out what works, it translates really well to your "next" skates - I actually just moved the insoles from my ancient jacksons into my old pair of jacksons, and had nearly no adjustment period on the ice, the hardest part with that pair was breaking in the tongues, but I was effectively doing "everything" the first day on the ice. I did my best to set up my Harlicks and similarly as possible (though I did scale back my break-in to be more gradual, initially I only taught classes in my new boots, which meant mostly a lot of standing around, with a little bit of demonstrating basic skills), and ultimately added the insole to the left, but I've never had any cramping or arch problems, the reason I added the insole was a "too wiggly in the toes" feeling because I'd previously been used to wearing a "too small" boot on that foot (my feet are different sizes - I tended to size to the smaller foot since it's only about 1/4 size smaller than the left, but that means I got used to a VERY snug fit - when I got boots that "fit" the feeling was a little unsettling, so I replicated what I was expecting to feel as best I could).
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I've had good success using hot melt glue to build up the arch on the bottom of a flat insole. Much the same as Query's tape idea really.
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Interestingly, whenever I build up the arch of the insole I cramp more! I had to tear all but in layer out at the rink today!
So the podiatrist I was referred to by my Sport Med doc doesn't take any insurance. $570/pair of orthotics. $450 initial evaluation and casting (if no acute issues preclude a cast that day) and $250 each visit after (usually 2-3) if no issues. I have an appointment for 3/5!
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Oooo, ooooo, ooooo, so happy, I asked if he gives any professional discount and they said they would work with me! No clue what the discount is exactly but every bit helps.
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I'm wondering if the insoles you are putting in are just a touch too wide for the boot, which results in the boot ending up fitting as if it was too narrow once the insoles are in. In skates that fit or are too wide, I've never had cramping issues. Only if they are too narrow. Which could also explain why lacing is creating issues for you.
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Interesting @TreSk8sAZ. I don't think the yellow superfeet are but the others I tired might be, although I took out the foam layer the fitter put in which is a perfect fit and used it as a template. The green superfeet were definitely too wide. The Soles, not sure. I did read some of the other Soles are better for skates. If I can buy them locally I may try them since they are returnable if they don't work out.
I plan on going to the fitter as soon as I can get my car back and he's free. The podiatrist wants me to bring the skates in so I guess he can weigh in on all of it too. I think I've gotten to the point now that it's affecting my right foot off ice. My arch feels painful now off ice. Going to get aggressive with soft tissue mobilization.
@sarahspins I didn't see your post earlier. I think the numbness and cold issue is the stiff tongue so I also think that's the hardest part! Phil said I could send them to him for softening. (Would be without the skates for 7+ days). I think the cramping is an arch/insole/support issue because I only really get that on the right whereas I get the cold and numbness bilaterally. Whenever I try and build up the arch I am getting more cramping. Really surprising. I'll check out that arch support. It looks interesting. I was looking at the Pedag ones yesterday. I may try them too. I can always use some of the things in non-skate boots and sneakers.
Thanks for all the input!
Oh and apparently SkyRink doesn't have hand dryers in the bathroom or locker room. Might be the only rink that doesn't in NYC.
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I have tried adding moleskin to where I need support. It's a thin-ish long-ish area that isn't contacting and with all the layers of moleskin it took, it was more like "steps" of layers rather than a smooth transition.
What I do is to overlap strips so the total thickness doesn't have too abrupt steps. And remember, it is done on the underside of a (soft) insole, so the insole itself cushions the transitions between layers.
I've had good success using hot melt glue to build up the arch on the bottom of a flat insole.
I haven't played much with hot glue. Is it faster to lay down than tape or foam?
I just talked to lady (a coach!) who said there was "something wrong" with the way her new boots felt at the toes. But she couldn't identify what - whether there was more or less pressure somewhere, or something else.
For that kind of person, maybe a medical professional can do the job better than the person herself, because what I was talking about required the person be able to identify the problem. I'm not sure what the professional would do, other than maybe use a heat-moldable insole, or use a mushy gel-sole (which a lot of skaters would hate, because you could lose control over what is going on), but maybe they have something they can do. Neither of which is particularly warm, but at least it would more or less fit.
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I haven't played much with hot glue. Is it faster to lay down than tape or foam?
Probably not. Probably no particular advantages or disadvantages over tape. It's just what I had on hand. I use it for all sorts of things. Hot melt glue is the new duct tape ;)
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Regardless of tape, glue, inserts, or orthotics, pay attention to your feet! To be the best I can be on the ice, means supporting & strengthening my feet off-ice.
The podiatrist who made my orthotics (my previous podiatrists and orthopedic surgeon, too), scolded me to always wear orthotics or good, supportive shoes. The podiatrist that made my skating orthotics, also makes orthotics for gymnasts (wears no shoes when performing). The reason is to support the foot when it's not trying to balance on the beam, to strengthen it/get it perfect for when they have to perform. The podiatrist said, "(Neverdull44), we want you to get to the ice rink in the best foot shape possible.)"
Wear the best shoes you have, especially right now. Wear your tennis/running shoes off-ice to heal your feet. Tell family members what you want for Christmas, gift certificates for good shoes. I usually don't wear flip flops or go barefoot, as those are against Dr.'s instructions. New Balance tennis shoes (many times with my orthotics for tennis shoes), the orthopedic Crocs, Finn sandals, & Ecco shoes/sandals (outlet stores), are the best shoes I've found. Dr. Scholls tennis shoes (bought a pair at Walmart) were cheap & excellent too. As are the "ugly", old person sandals that look like the Finns. Sometimes for dress, I will wear Bandalino or Naturalizer heels when dressing up. I am actually OK in a 3 inch heel if it's in a supportive shoe. Oh, and I LOVE my Kenkoh message house shoes. I can't say ENOUGH about those and how happy I am with them.
I also have specific stretches. These are "whole body" stretches, but the physical therapists had me doing these types of stretches after my plantar issues and ankle surgery. I do them every day before I skate, at the rink. I usually do about 5 of each.
1) Upward dog/snake. It stretches the front of the ankle like no other. It also stretches my back.
2) Downward dog. It stretches the calf muscles and plantar (goes through the arch) and gives one that 30ish degree achilles stretch. It also stretches & strengthens my whole body which is an added bonus (efficiency).
3) Ankle circles
At home, I practice
4) picking up objects with my toes (towels, coins, pencils, toy cars . . . alot of toy cars in my house)
5) icing my feet by rolling the arch on a frozen water bottle.
Oh, and I have to really watch my weight. Less weight = less stress on the feet. That's a challenge at 46 years old!
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That all sounds right on @neverdull!
I have an appointment on Thursday with the podiatrist but I read some pretty bad reviews (some good ones too). I saw that Bauerfeind is making orthotics for skates and skis now and I really want to try those first just because almost everything they make is amazing. May just push the doc appointment back a bit. Also thinking I should see the fitter first before the doc. Will get all my ducks in a row!
I have always had to wear good shoes. Never been able to buy cheaply made ones. I need new ones including sneakers.
I ordered the Pedag's. How nice would it be to be able to try everything? I had to hold back.
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Interestingly, whenever I build up the arch of the insole I cramp more!
My basic feeling is that one should "listen to" your feet - that you can feel what you need. That if something makes you feel better, it is better. I know people sometimes say that isn't always quite right - that sometimes positions that feel good aren't perfectly optimal in the very long run. (Just like foods that taste good aren't always healthy in the long run.) But it is what I personally go by.
So don't build it up - cut or sand some away from beneath there. It's possible that your feet are naturally healthy flatter than the insole+footbed of your boots. Someone on this forum once said that for some people equalizing pressure isn't always optimal. I don't understand the reasons why,
OTOH, if you can afford to see a good medical professional who the rest of the skating/dance community says is good, that ought to be a great thing to do. Especially if another professional has already told you that you have back problems that need to be looked at too.
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I totally agree @query it has to feel good! Nothing is feeling so good right now. I really strained my arch on the last skate which is kinda strange unless it's just built up over time.
That orthotist I popped in on off the street may be right about my back but I don't know him at all. I just contacted a PT friend who is a foot specialist and is the PT (with her staff) for the majority of Broadway dancers so hoping she can see me. It's been a long time since I've talked to her. I would totally trust her. I don't think she's evaluating for orthotics anymore but she can certainly tell me what the problem is so I would be most comfortable starting there. I really hesitate about the podiatrist after reading so many unhappy reviews. True you never know what exactly was happening but it's certainly not encouraging. I'll see what my friend says and start there. In the meantime, really interested in the Bauerfiend orthotics. Have you heard of them? Everything they make is awesome and I always recommended their braces, above all else to my patients.
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Soooo happy! My PT friend / foot expert, can make time for me. I'll get down to the bottom of this now! Definitely putting off the orthotist until she evaluates me and advises me. Trust her 1,000%!!
So interesting. I now have strained my right arch fairly well. I put green superfeet in my boots to walk out in the snow and felt so much better walking. I've now done low dye taping of the right foot and it also helps. Something for the interim....
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If you need to tape the foot itself with this specialized "low dye taping" technique, your troubles are way beyond my knowledge level. Maybe you better ignore everything I said.
Though your PT friend who treats most of the Broadway dancers has to be good. Maybe she has contacts to get you a job on Broadway, that will pay for the visit :)
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Ha! But I can't sing or dance!
I'm seeing her tomorrow. So happy she fit me in so quickly. She is way more reasonable than the podiatrist (very reasonable actually, especially for NYC!) and I know she will put her all into the visit, and is an excellent clinician.
I also just ordered the ErgoPad Ski & Skate orthotics from Bauerfiend. http://www.bauerfeindusa.com/en/products/foot-orthoses/ergopad-ski-skate.html
They are coming from Germany so 7-10 days and I can return if needed so wanted to get it going. Plus I got a professional discount - half price, so figured why not. I spoke with their prosthetist and he thought these would likely work for me as they are highly customizable and he would instruct me or my PT friend, after she assesses my feet.
Sadly, whatever I tried on Friday just put my arches (mostly the right) over the edge and I am really surprised because I'd skated much longer than I did Friday, just not with the higher arched insoles. Who knew 20 minutes could be so bad!! I took them out by then, maybe even sooner.
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Sometimes (often times or most times) you have to keep things REALLY simple and not be so quick to over complicate things. Also hard to assess your own feet because you don't have the same vantage point as someone watching you does.
I totally did this and it did not serve me well at all, but glad I recognized it last Friday, albeit on the late side. Starting to improve from the self-inflicted strain from over-thinking last Friday.
I saw my PT friend today for an evaluation and treatment and am over the moon thrilled I did. Hadn't seen her in years and missed her. She is such a wonderful person and an infinitely skilled PT!
She doesn't think I need orthotics, but just cushioning and maybe a bit of support under the base of my first toe. We will assess the Bauerfeind orthotics when they come in and see if they would work but if they don't and IF I need anything more than cushioning, there is another insole that is over the counter she believes should work.
She is pretty sure the issue is structural. My forefoot is supinated (not my hindfoot or heal) and the metatarsals were pretty well stuck but she successfully made headway. My right hip is also tight and internally rotating and this may have "driven" the foot issue. I had a little knee issue I was aware of and the hip is likely driving that too. She's pretty sure my back is not an issue and didn't find anything there.
So incredibly grateful to be able to get treated by her. She said of course she would see me, we go way back and I was with her when she started out. That touched me. Not all our friends from back then are still humble and, well nice! Feeling lucky and feeling like I am moving forward. I have a lot to do at home and on the ice and will see her next Tuesday for follow up and treatment.
Oh and for the numbness/cold issue she agrees is probably the tongue stiffness (I brought my skates) and a nerve compression issue and gave me some foam in different thicknesses to try lifting the tongue off the nerve.
So ironic, I ALWAYS go for CUSHIONING in sneakers! It has always been my go-to. I really, really just over-thunk this one. But I need treatment so I am in the best place possible.
:love:
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Yes!!! Happy Feet are wonderful! Hope you heal your heels!
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Thanks @neverdull! Happy feet, happy me! :)
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Skated today and after one treatment had significant improvement in arch cramping on the right. Not gone but the severity was 40-50% on my first tie, a bit less the next 2 re-ties.
PT also suggested I essentially lift the tongue off my nerve by adding a bit of foam to the sides of the tongue so the middle can't compress. (I didn't adhere anything since it's temporary, which made it a bit less controllable for positioning but it also improved that issue 40-50%. My feet never got frozen, which was a significant relief. I did get numb but it took a lot longer and was not as severe. All in all much more manageable! I will give it some more time with the treatment and breaking in but softening those tongues may not be a bad idea. Although it will be a last resort. I'm very pleased with how far I came in just one treatment! She is so great. Best move I could've made.
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It's always amazing what a real expert can do.
But I hope you don't have to keep going back to her too often. Maybe you could tell everyone here who she is?
It would be nice if there were something she could do to the boot to make your feet happy without her.
https://www.google.com/search?q=happy+feet+image&client=opera&hs=WTc&tbm=isch&imgil=XeGdRp2GKfR11M%253A%253BhqFgl1ApjJc7iM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Funaccomplishedangler.com%25252F2013%25252F03%25252Fhappy-feet-by-korkers%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=XeGdRp2GKfR11M%253A%252ChqFgl1ApjJc7iM%252C_&usg=__WmKps2yKoJKIebnQlFSSHdJUkbo%3D&biw=1024&bih=502&ved=0CDYQyjc&ei=nqD4VP6DBMWuggTI-ICAAg
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She doesn't think I'll need to many treatments. We are going to tweak the insoles if needed after my foot is back in a normal position. I just need cushioning (moved the foam that was under the superfeet on top for the moment but it is currently not enough). We are going to assess the Bauerfiend insoles when they arrive since I already ordered them (coming from Germany as they were out of stock) and if that doesn't do it she has another insole she likes. I just don't remember the name. Also playing with foam to keep the tongue off the nerve while it breaks in.
Her PT practice is PhysioArts (www.physioarts.com) in Chelsea. Everyone there is good!
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Glad you had alot better skate! Sounds like you are on the right track.
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Done with the numb and cold - going to get the tongues softened tomorrow by fitter. Cross fingers this does it! Getting off the ice every 20 minutes is getting old, especially in the middle of a lesson!
Needed a sharpening too but pa-lease let this be the end of the numb toes! >:(
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Glad you can feel your toes again! Keeping my fingers crossed!
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I think I confused you. I cannot feel my toes after 20-ish minutes! So annoying already. I can't keep doing it so caving and having the tongues softened. Sigh. Took the week off skating because of it.
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Oh I'm a dork. I saw "done with the numb and cold..." and thought you'd solved that and just needed to fix the tongue. I plead sick kid distraction here! You meant it as "I AM SO ;$:&($! DONE WITH THE NUMB ANS COLD!!!" And that stinks. :(
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Haha yeah so @#$$%^! done with foot numbness! Sorry you have a sick kid!
Got the tongues softened and heat molded boots again. Taking a step at a time. Starting with the tongue. Didn't want to stretch anything else or punch out just yet.
I handed the fitter the boots, he looked at them and said they look brand new, out of the box and that I hadn't broken them down at all! I wanted to cry!
Hope your kid feels better soon and the other doesn't get it!!
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Haha yeah so @#$$%^! done with foot numbness! Sorry you have a sick kid!
Got the tongues softened and heat molded boots again. Taking a step at a time. Starting with the tongue. Didn't want to stretch anything else or punch out just yet.
I handed the fitter the boots, he looked at them and said they look brand new, out of the box and that I hadn't broken them down at all! I wanted to cry!
Hope your kid feels better soon and the other doesn't get it!!
Just saw this. It was both kids and they're all better now, thank goodness! I can't believe the fitter said you haven't broken them in at all. :'( But maybe that means they'll get a lot better....someday? :-\
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Yes he said "when" I do break them in they should be amazing. He really wants me to wear them in the apartment - a lot. Not easy to do in a small apartment. Too much "stuff" but I will.
I took an advanced ankle & foot (PT) course the last 4 days with a well renowned PT (for feet) and it was very good for what's going on with my issues as well as general education. I brought my skates to class and got some recommendations for orthotics that can be manipulated to my needs and he also doesn't think I'd need custom orthotics. We learned to cast for orthotics as well. It's really easy but also really easy to mess up and explains why so many custom orthotics are not good - if not casted in a neutral foot.
It was great that during class he pointed out anything we were talking about that affected, or was common in skaters, and how.
Glad you are all healthy in your home again!