skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: Christy on November 15, 2015, 09:41:25 PM
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I managed to try a shorter (only 1/4") version of my blade yesterday. Both sets of blades had just been sharpened with the same ROH (7/16ths) but the longer ones seemed sharper. Initially it was difficult to turn / stop the longer blades (which is fairly normal) but the main differences I noticed were that the shorter blades seemed to stick more when I was trying to glide, which I think is expected, but they also slipped quite a bit to the side too. I know the shorter blades should turn easier so is this the reason they slip to the side?
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Do they have the same profile, according to the manufacturer? If so, they should feel the same, unless you are using the heel.
I guess the shorter blades were not sharpened as well.
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Another factor to consider is the mounting of the blade. Unless you adjust the mounting of the blade carefully along the longitudinal axis of the boot (toe to heel), you will be skating on a different portion of the rocker when you change blade length. You will then have to modify your strokes to compensate.
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I have not had this happen with a shorter blade. I would guess that either your blade is not sharpened very well or has a different profile or is not mounted correctly (for you) -
Good luck with your blades!
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I just checked and the profile should be the same. Not sure if it makes a difference but the longer one has been sharpened 2 or 3 times, the shorter one was sharpened once. They are mounted on very slightly different sized boots, but the boots are the same brand / style and the positioning of the blade on the sole looks the same.
I do wonder if it's just a bad sharpening
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So it's the same blade - let's say - Coronation Ace 10 1/4" and you put a pair of Coronation Ace 10" on another pair of boots?
I've always wondered what that would do if the rockers were just in a slightly different position also --
Does this make any sense?
I will be very curious to see how this works out for you. Did you go with the shorter blade because that is what fit the new boots or were you just going to try a shorter blade to see how that would work for you?
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I would also suspect the sharpening, and possibly the mounting. I've gone from a 9-1/2" blade to 9-1/4" blade and really felt no difference.
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If the blades are mounted correctly, the rocker should be in the same place.
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If the blades are mounted correctly, the rocker should be in the same place.
Really? If you put a shorter blade on the same boot wouldn't the rocker be slightly more forward as well? It's not like all of the length is in the tail of the blade...
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Really? If you put a shorter blade on the same boot wouldn't the rocker be slightly more forward as well? It's not like all of the length is in the tail of the blade...
If the blade is mounted correctly, your skate tech will position the rocker in the correct place and screw the blade in so the rocker is fixed there. That's why you can only have a blade that's 1/4" off your correct size.
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If the blade is mounted correctly, your skate tech will position the rocker in the correct place and screw the blade in so the rocker is fixed there. That's why you can only have a blade that's 1/4" off your correct size.
I see.
That is IF your skate tech actually does that.
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Really? If you put a shorter blade on the same boot wouldn't the rocker be slightly more forward as well? It's not like all of the length is in the tail of the blade...
but what happens if the boot is a size smaller, and the blade 1/4" shorter - should the rocker be in the same position on the boot?
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but what happens if the boot is a size smaller, and the blade 1/4" shorter - should the rocker be in the same position on the boot?
If the boot is smaller yes - otherwise I would think you would have to move the blade back a little to have it in the same position if it the boot could take 1/4 inch longer blade...
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It happened to me too.
In particular, the edge at the back end of the tail was dragging on the ice while I was trying to glide. I also couldn't roll through as much length of blade as before. Those things slowed me down A LOT. Apparently, length correlates strongly with speed and glide length.
As others have said, you can re-mount a blade farther back - but that would place the sweet spot (where the rocker curvature changes), and the toe pick farther back, too. You need to ask yourself whether it would feel comfortable to do so. Most of us are comfortable initiating those weight changes if the sweet spot is just ahead of the ball of our foot. Where we feel we want the toe pick varies a fair bit. (Most of us don't want to accidentally hit our toe picks, but we want it to be reasonably easy to reach them when we need to.) Those things all limit where we can mount our blades.
In principle you could slightly round off the corner at the back of your blade, so it doesn't drag as much. I've not tried that. It would probably make balance harder, jump landings harder, and, if you were taught to do back turns at the back of your blade (styles vary), make back 3-turns (etc.) harder.
I'm very sorry, but if you don't think that moving your blades back on your boots would work for you, the most effective fix might be to buy longer blades. :sad:
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I'm not sure it's possible to put a longer blade on the boots I tried as the one that's on there now is fitted right at the end points of the sole, but it would be nice as I do like the fit of the smaller boots but I'm fairly tall so do feel a bit less stable with the smaller boot / shorter blade.
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What blades is it?
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I'm not sure it's possible to put a longer blade on the boots I tried as the one that's on there now is fitted right at the end points of the sole
The way I see it, the mounting plate can extend outside the sole and heel area, though you need something to firmly attach screws to.
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So if I went with the shorter blade (and smaller boot, which does feel more comfortable) would it be worth trying a different ROH. I currently use 7/16ths, I tried 1/2 on the longer blade and absolutely hated it, plus the sharpening only lasted half as long......
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So if I went with the shorter blade (and smaller boot, which does feel more comfortable) would it be worth trying a different ROH. I currently use 7/16ths, I tried 1/2 on the longer blade and absolutely hated it, plus the sharpening only lasted half as long......
I'm happy w/ my 1/2 ROH, but I have to touch it up every couple of hours w/ a Pro-Filer.
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Remember, only a small portion of the blade along the rocker is in contact with the ice at any time. So, all else being equal (and that's a critical qualifier), changing to a slightly shorter blade should not require a change in ROH. If you are happy with a 7/16” ROH, stick with it; don’t intentionally introduce another variable at this time (you have too many uncontrolled variables as is). Hypothetically, increasing the ROH would improve your glide, but cause additional side slipping. So I wouldn’t mess with it for now. Time to check your premises (as Sherlock Holmes would say).
(1) The old boot and the new boot are identical except for the size. The new boot is smaller than the old boot. (By the way, what are the actual sizes?) Are they truly identical? Sometimes manufacturers introduce minor changes without changing the model number. A change in heel pitch or arch support, for example, could affect performance. Check with the manufacturer and skate tech for any unannounced changes. Have the skate tech check for any defects.
(2) The old blade and the new blade are identical except for length. The new blade is shorter than the old blade by 1/4”. (By the way, what are the actual lengths?) Have the skate tech check for any defects, such as warping or misalignment.
(3) The old blade and the new blade were both recently sharpened with identical ROH of 7/16”. But you mention that the longer blade “feels sharper”. It’s hard to get consistent sharpenings, even with a decent skate tech. I usually have to fine-tune myself. Have your skate tech check. By the way, my experience is that changing the ROH by a 1/16” has a significant effect on performance. Detecting a 1/16” change in ROH, however, is difficult. Visual inspection is totally useless. I have a set of precision calibrated machinist’s radius gauges. But even with them, detecting the small change across the narrow width of a figure skate blade is difficult. Really fussy sharpeners use a special instrument outfitted with a dial indicator (expensive and not that common).
(4) The old blade and the new blade are both properly mounted. Have your skate tech check.
Good luck! I hate it whenever I change boots or blades. Always requires a lot of tweaking.
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deleted (dup)
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Having just gotten new boots and new blades, both of which were smaller than my previous, too-large set up, one thing you have to remember. If you are getting smaller boots, that means the old boots were too large. What that also means is you were not over the blade the same way you will be in smaller boots. Essentially, because my boots were a full size too big, I had to lean more forward than I realized to try and get over the rocker on everything because it was out ahead of the ball of my foot. I just didn't know it because it's what I had gotten used to.
In the smaller boots/blades, that actually fit, I'm having to relearn or refine my technique on quite a bit - even on things like crossovers - to correct posture and the part of the blade I'm using for things. I felt for a good two weeks I could not do ANYTHING. It may well be that when you tried the smaller blades in smaller boots, you were automatically skating as you normally would have in the boots that were too large, and your weight was not in the place you expected it to be. Not sure it's a blades being short thing, but maybe more of a boots were too big thing.
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Having just gotten new boots and new blades, both of which were smaller than my previous, too-large set up, one thing you have to remember. If you are getting smaller boots, that means the old boots were too large. What that also means is you were not over the blade the same way you will be in smaller boots. Essentially, because my boots were a full size too big, I had to lean more forward than I realized to try and get over the rocker on everything because it was out ahead of the ball of my foot. I just didn't know it because it's what I had gotten used to.
In the smaller boots/blades, that actually fit, I'm having to relearn or refine my technique on quite a bit - even on things like crossovers - to correct posture and the part of the blade I'm using for things. I felt for a good two weeks I could not do ANYTHING. It may well be that when you tried the smaller blades in smaller boots, you were automatically skating as you normally would have in the boots that were too large, and your weight was not in the place you expected it to be. Not sure it's a blades being short thing, but maybe more of a boots were too big thing.
This is such a good point - and why you have to go through an adjustment period any time you change into different boots/blades - besides the usual break-in for the boots, you sometimes just have to learn how to skate "in these boots" or "in these blades" - the sweet spot is going to be in a different place, the balance point different -
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It may well be that when you tried the smaller blades in smaller boots, you were automatically skating as you normally would have in the boots that were too large, and your weight was not in the place you expected it to be. Not sure it's a blades being short thing, but maybe more of a boots were too big thing.
So - you are suggesting that Christy could be letting her feet lean feet too far back (scraping the back corner of the blade) or too far forward (scraping the toe pick), and that if changes her foot usage, everything could be perfect?
If you are right, maybe I gave up too soon on my shorter blades...
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This is such a good point - and why you have to go through an adjustment period any time you change into different boots/blades - besides the usual break-in for the boots, you sometimes just have to learn how to skate "in these boots" or "in these blades" - the sweet spot is going to be in a different place, the balance point different -
Interesting. I can understand how the sweet spot would affect things like jumps and spins which I wouldn't dare try with the smaller boots / shorter blades as they just didn't feel stable, but not sure how that would cause so much drag on the blade? I went down a 1/4" on blade length about 18 months ago and didn't experience any problems with the change at all, so I'm finding it strange that going down another 1/4" would cause so much drag.
I was thinking it would either be a case of not sharpened properly or a need to change the ROH because that does affect the glide. If I wanted to try a different ROH would I try 6/16ths for it to be an easier glide?
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I was thinking it would either be a case of not sharpened properly or a need to change the ROH because that does affect the glide. If I wanted to try a different ROH would I try 6/16ths for it to be an easier glide?
Well I think you need to get that sharpening checked out for sure! I think that was the initial response of everyone who responded here - everything else is just theory and conjecture!!
The mystery of the boot and blade and sweet spot continues! :)
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I was thinking it would either be a case of not sharpened properly or a need to change the ROH because that does affect the glide. If I wanted to try a different ROH would I try 6/16ths for it to be an easier glide?
If you want an easier glide, you want to increase the ROH from your current 7/16" to 1/2". But you mentioned you now have side slippage. So that may get worse.
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So - you are suggesting that Christy could be letting her feet lean feet too far back (scraping the back corner of the blade) or too far forward (scraping the toe pick), and that if changes her foot usage, everything could be perfect?
If you are right, maybe I gave up too soon on my shorter blades...
Yes. In my case, in the old boots/blades, I was essentially skating ahead of my foot to get onto the rocker. Now that the boots are the proper length, and the blades are as well, I have to constantly make sure I am over the blade. I have changed how I press into the blade, where I do that, and what part of my skate I use to do that.
Interesting. I can understand how the sweet spot would affect things like jumps and spins which I wouldn't dare try with the smaller boots / shorter blades as they just didn't feel stable, but not sure how that would cause so much drag on the blade? I went down a 1/4" on blade length about 18 months ago and didn't experience any problems with the change at all, so I'm finding it strange that going down another 1/4" would cause so much drag.
I was thinking it would either be a case of not sharpened properly or a need to change the ROH because that does affect the glide. If I wanted to try a different ROH would I try 6/16ths for it to be an easier glide?
It definitely could be the sharpening. I will say, though, that when I changed blades I found on certain things I was pushed more into the ice or felt like the blades were scraping or slower because I wasn't used to where the rocker was. And I'm talking about things like crossovers and footwork. I also found I would slide sideways at times because I wasn't used to where to push, and I'd end up not being on as solid of an edge as I was expecting.
Each person is so, so different, and each piece of equipment is different for each person. There may not be one right answer, you may just have to experiment.
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Adding to the thread with my experience changing boots and blades: I've switched to Edeas with a 1/2" shorter blade. Tried them out this morning and definitely will need to adjust my weight placement (I keep leaning too far forwards, especially when skating backwards) but the glide felt the same.
Details:
Old:
Jackson premiere (7.5C)
Pattern 99 (10")
ROH 3/8"
New:
Edea Chorus (255C)
Pattern 99 (9-1/2")
ROH 3/8"
Reasons for a 1/2" of blade length: My old Jacksons were 1/2 a size too big (I wanted to re-use my blade from my old Riedells and that was the compromise). So my "real" Jackson blade length was a 9-3/4". Then going to Edea with the higher heel got me to 9-1/2".
Result: After one skate, I would say the sweet spot is different and it feels like my toepicks are much further back relative to where the ball of my foot is. But, just like TreSk8AZ, my previous boots/blades were too big. My cross-strokes forwards are easier, my cross-strokes backwards feel like a tangled-leg face plant waiting to happen. Basic jumps and spins exist, but the spins are wobbly and the jumps are tiny and I feel like a beginner again. I'm hoping the learning curve will get better after the first skate, but I definitely feel it!
As far as the Edea boots, there appears to be no break-in as promised; I can fully bend my ankles. There was a little arch cramping 10 minutes in and then it went away.
But as far as the OP's question, no differences in glide, slipping sideways, etc. Being freshly sharpened, the blades do indeed "feel" sharp. It's all a front/back rocker issue for me.
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And as a further tangent - my old skates were about 5.0 pounds for the pair, and the new skates are about 4.4 pounds for the pair. I didn't have the best scale to take these measurements and they vary each time a little, but the difference between the two seems to be consistently 0.3 pounds less per skate/blade combo.
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Update - it took about 15-20 hours of skating for the new boots/shorter blades to feel like "my" skates again. Jumps and spins are roughly where they used to be. Moves in the field and 3 turns still a little "off" but I figure they will get there. Edeas were comfy from the start though as reported by others I do relace sometimes after the first half hour or definitely after one hour.