Coaching an element beyond one's own level

[FigureSpins]

I'd rather have someone who can walk through and tell me how to do something correctly rather than my spending the bulk of the lesson watching and trying to figure out why I can't copy them.  It doesn't do me any good to watch if I'm the one who has to do it eventually. 

Another point to consider is that CW skaters are fewer, as are CW coaches.  While I can spin and do up through a half-lutz CW, I often have to resort to demonstrating CCW for other elements with CW students.  It's better to walk through on the proper edges and checks, especially with a student who's not so great at distinguishing left from right or inside from outside. 

[Sierra]

I very much appreciate that my coach can demonstrate figures (all the way to Eighth) and I find it helpful that she shows me (and her other students) all the MITF, footwork patterns, dance patterns and etc.

My coach demonstrates high-level MITF and dances as well. She also does the MITF spiral patterns with full extension and leg-above-hip, which is impressive compared to the other coaches who do not really demonstrate spirals at all.

Another point to consider is that CW skaters are fewer, as are CW coaches.  While I can spin and do up through a half-lutz CW, I often have to resort to demonstrating CCW for other elements with CW students. 

I watched my coach do a CW backspin once for a student- it looked like her natural side until I realized she was on her left foot. I try to get myself to spin CW, but I usually give up.

I prefer walkthroughs as well. I was never a visual learner, so I also like being given full explanations- what edge, how to move leg, how to use arms.
The major reason I could not do a salchow for months and months is because everyone kept demonstrating it and did not explain that I was supposed to deepen the back edge and be half-turned around before jumping. They would just tell me it was a waltz jump after a 3turn. And finally, one day, a random coach said to face the wall, 3turn face the other wall, then face the original wall again before jumping. And allofasudden it made sense.

[phoenix]

Here's a good example: my coach was badly injured last winter & hasn't been in skates since. He coaches from the side, & it works just fine.

Another one: my highest student is on novice moves; I've passed juvenile. But she ROCKED her intermediate moves test, and she's doing very well w/ novice and should hopefully be ready to test them in late winter.

One more: I share a student w/ another coach. I mainly do moves, presentation & dance with her, the other coach focuses on jumps & spins. I never went beyond singles. Yet I can fix her axel if she's lost it, and now that she's working on doubles & struggling, I came up w/ an exercise for her to try last night that took her from popping a double attempt every time, to staying pulled in & landing 1.5 revs & finishing the revs on the ice, and staying over the right side. Big improvement there. Now, I don't mess with some things that I feel I don't understand well enough. But, I can effectively help her along because I know what I'm looking at and what needs to happen for it to work.

btw, I have spent HOURS poring over videos, books, message boards, etc., to glean out every tiny bit of info I can to help me learn more to be able to teach better. And it clearly is working. I also know my limits & won't teach beyond my level of understanding the theory behind the movement.

[Sk8tmum]

When I volunteered to help at a local rink, I came to realize that most of the kids were largely unable to connect words with actions. Below the middle teens or so, they were pretty much monkey-see monkey-do learners. I honestly don't see how a non-skating coach could teach them anything.

Hmmm ... Patrick Chan ... his first coach was Osborne Colson. Definitely not demonstrating doubles on the ice.  He died in 2006 at age 90. 

Anyways, remember that everyone has different learning styles. That's why different coaches suit different skaters. Some skaters are visual learners; some are body/kinesthetic learners; etc etc etc.  Some need coaches to demonstrate a jump then mimic it, others need coaches to move their bodies thru a jump or move, then are able to copy it; others need coaches to "talk" them through the steps. Thus, the answer to this "should he/shouldn't he" need a skating background will vary based on the skater; the coach's ability to communicate effectively; the coach's ability to understand what s/he has never done (there are those who can only teach what they have done themselves because that is their own personal learning style); and, frankly, the coach's simply ability to coach. I know many skaters who were landing triples - but can't explain how or teach them to someone else - and others who can't land triples but are able to instruct, correct, and explain the technique to being able to coach it. 
However, I do agree that you need to know the "language of skating" - if you don't know what a mohawk is, or what a salchow should look like and how it should be executed, you  have no business coaching it.

[phoenix]

Mishin and Lussi both had a basis for coaching:

Mishin was a Soviet National Champion pairs skater and won a World Silver medal - see

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Mishin

Lussi may not have competed, but had been a very good athlete and took figure skating lessons from a top professional with the specific goal of becoming a world class coach - see what someone else just quoted

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Lussi

Neither of them did triples, etc., which is what the OP was asking about; coaching beyond one's own ability. Lussi developed his own theory of skating & he is pretty much responsible for a lot of the way we do things today, such as crossed feet in the air.

[fsk8r]

Hmmm ... Patrick Chan ... his first coach was Osborne Colson. Definitely not demonstrating doubles on the ice.  He died in 2006 at age 90. 

Anyways, remember that everyone has different learning styles. That's why different coaches suit different skaters. Some skaters are visual learners; some are body/kinesthetic learners; etc etc etc.  Some need coaches to demonstrate a jump then mimic it, others need coaches to move their bodies thru a jump or move, then are able to copy it; others need coaches to "talk" them through the steps. Thus, the answer to this "should he/shouldn't he" need a skating background will vary based on the skater; the coach's ability to communicate effectively; the coach's ability to understand what s/he has never done (there are those who can only teach what they have done themselves because that is their own personal learning style); and, frankly, the coach's simply ability to coach. I know many skaters who were landing triples - but can't explain how or teach them to someone else - and others who can't land triples but are able to instruct, correct, and explain the technique to being able to coach it. 
However, I do agree that you need to know the "language of skating" - if you don't know what a mohawk is, or what a salchow should look like and how it should be executed, you  have no business coaching it.

Some of the best coaches aren't necessarily the best skaters. In finding things hard, they learn through their coaches the techniques to correct things. In finding things easy they don't go through the analytical approach of learning what their bodies are doing. In learning to analyse their bodies coaches are then able to watch and analyse their skaters bodies, hence the ability to then coach beyond your own level.
My coach admitted that she hadn't learnt to coach through her own coach. She'd found it too easy as a child. But she spent time learning to analyse and is now a good coach (in my opinion). I've been doing figure loops with her recently which she'd never taught before. It was interesting watching her trying them out on the ice and trying to work out how to explain what she was doing. But I could equally have had a verbal explanation and then corrections to my attempts. But as Figurespins says, it depends on your learning style what technique works best for you.

[katz in boots]

I dunno.  My first coach never did a spin or a jump for me, but she explained herself very well, and it just didn't matter, even though I'm a very visual learner. She would demonstrate body position, posture, free leg position, hip open/closed, etc.
Another coach would demonstrate everything.  Sometimes it helped, sometimes I knew or suspected what she was doing was not correct and sometimes it was useless.
Not one of her students could do a backspin.  She could, and would demonstrate it endlessly (to the point I felt like my lesson was backspin practise time for her) but it did not help me at all.

My last coach can do, and very well, but demonstrates only when she deems it necessary. Which is probably just as well.  Watching her could be discouraging cos she's soooo far beyond what I could ever hope to do. 

[SillyAdultSkater]

Mishin was a Soviet National Champion pairs skater and won a World Silver medal - see

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Mishin

Yes but at the time, they were doing doubles and "easy" triples, not high triples and quadruples.

[jjane45]

Thank you everyone for your insights. Part of my original question was wondering about the overall trend, would you please share your guesstimate about the following:

What percentage of intermediate skaters are coached by skaters who passed the intermediate test?
What percentage of novice skaters coached by novice or above?
Junior? Senior?

Obviously the percentage will drop dramatically from intermediate to senior. But right now I have absolutely no clue what range will it be... Your thoughts are greatly appreciated!

[Query]

Only a formal study could give you answers to percentage questions - and such a study may not have occurred.

What you can ask coaches is what percentage of them are teaching students above their own level - and it is important to distinguish between what they can do now and what they once did.

I skate in the Washington, DC suburban area, a center of government, wealth and power. Many local parents and skaters with the money for athletic lessons have an extremely competitive and status-conscious nature. They crave qualifications with words like "Olympic", "Worlds", "National Champion", "Gold", etc., and coaches come here from all over the world to meet that demand. There are a few other areas like that, but it can't be typical.

Figure skating directors and often restrict who is allowed to teach, and seek coaches whose skating and coaching careers sound impressive, as do club officers who regulate who can coach in club-sessions. Since there are such coaches available in our area, others probably have a hard time finding places here to teach, and move elsewhere.

So when I find that the majority of local coaches I've met were at least National competitors or close to it, the sample is biased.
 
People like Mishin or Lussi are also so atypical of the average coach that it is meaningless to the majority. There are people in any field who are just incredibly good at teaching. They typically take an extremely well organized systematic approach to teaching, and they often study the subject they are teaching so well they know virtually everything that they can possibly know about both the subject, and about how to teach and the psychology of their students. They often create the textbooks and methods of teaching that other teachers use.  It is quite possible they - who represent a tiny fraction of a percent of professional teachers in any field - can teach well many students whose abilities exceed their own, especially in sports, where physical limitations and childhood background apply, regardless of how hard you try.

When you look for coaches for yourself, to some extant you have to figure out for yourself what you need in a coach. If you are a teacher, you should figure out who you are able to teach well. In the end, if you please your students, that is mostly what counts.

But I still think it is appropriate for coaches to inform students with serious skating dreams that someone else might teach them better, if true - and that you don't mind if they take trial lessons with others.

[vesperholly]

If coaches could only coach the moves they had done themselves, nobody would be landing quads, or even triples, for that matter.  The most important qualifications for a coach are (1) an understanding of the physics of figure skating, i.e., the relationships between edges, lean, angular momentum, open vs. closed body positions, etc., and (2) the ability to communicate that information to the skater in such a way that the skater is able to implement those techniques and make the necessary corrections.

I agree, and I do think that learning at least the fundamentals — all the single jumps, a few multi-rotational jumps — is important. I certainly think that a coach who learned a toe loop or a double could teach a triple and quad, but a coach who never did a toe loop, teaching a toe loop? I'm less confident in that.

[Purple Sparkly]

I agree, and I do think that learning at least the fundamentals — all the single jumps, a few multi-rotational jumps — is important. I certainly think that a coach who learned a toe loop or a double could teach a triple and quad, but a coach who never did a toe loop, teaching a toe loop? I'm less confident in that.

This is about what I was thinking.

I can do an axel and a few double jumps.  Most spins, all of the turns.  I passed Junior moves and have worked on Senior, but without passing (yet? ha..).  I hope my students get beyond my own skating level and I feel confident in my ability to take them there.  My own coach is very good and she has helped me develop a good understanding of the mechanics of skating.  I have always been able to see errors pretty well, so I can make appropriate corrections.

Some high level skaters have trouble teaching low level skills.  I noticed even when I started teaching that I didn't remember learning how to do a three-turn, I just did it.  I remember learning axels and double sal chows, so all of those key words are fresh for me, but I wasn't sure how I learned to do a backspin. 

Coaches that don't take the time to analyze and understand an element won't be able to effectively teach it, regardless of their own skating level.

[Sierra]

Some high level skaters have trouble teaching low level skills.  I noticed even when I started teaching that I didn't remember learning how to do a three-turn, I just did it.  I remember learning axels and double sal chows, so all of those key words are fresh for me, but I wasn't sure how I learned to do a backspin. 

I'm not a coach, but that's happened to me too- not remembering how to do backward stroking. My mother also asked me about something she saw other kids do which I identified as crossrolls- I do crossrolls in warmup sometimes, but frankly, I've only worked on them in a group lesson maybe once, a long time ago, and I don't know if I'm doing them right, so I'm not about to teach them.

What about the new mitf? Can a coach learn loops and twizzles quickly enough and well enough to teach them?

[Purple Sparkly]

What about the new mitf? Can a coach learn loops and twizzles quickly enough and well enough to teach them?

I can't speak for anybody else... But, I have been doing twizzles and loops in programs for a few years now, so they are not completely new to me.  I would feel much more comfortable teaching twizzles than loops.  I have spent some time with my coach on loops so I can better understand how to teach them, but I would not feel comfortable teaching them just yet.  After my competition next month, I plan to spend more time working on them so that I can teach them effectively when my students get to that level.  As there are many coaches that did not do figures, PSA will likely offer seminars on loops and twizzles over the next several years.  A coach that makes an effort to learn the technique should be able to teach them.  Luckily for me, my students aren't at the point to learn those skills, so I will be able to learn it before they get there.

[blue111moon]

I see more problems arising when coaches "think" they can teach elements that they never did or don't remember learning, like loops and twizzles.  There's a coach at one of my rinks who's doing this now;  she admitted to me she doesn't remember how to do loops because she passed the figure test with them when she was 12 and hasn't done them - or thought about them since (more than 25 years). As a freeskater she never did twizzles at all and doesn't really understand the techniques.  But she's teaching them - wrongly - to her skaters and wondering why the girls are having so much trouble with them.  (Duh!) 

Of course it's possible to teach elements beyond your own ability level (Gus Lussi, the legendary guru, never skated!) but it takes a lot of conscious effort and study to learn the physics and mechanics behind each move - and then translate that into terms that students can understand.  I don't see a lot of coaches at the club levels who are willing to do that.  Kudos to those who do, though.

[fsk8r]

with regards to loops. I entered a competition a couple of years ago which required a series of 3 loops. On the UK tests we only have BI loops. My coach hadn't ever taught loops other than the test ones and of course it's now over 20 years since she passed her figures test in them. It made for an interesting lesson as she had to work out how to teach them. For me I didn't mind the messing about as it put us both on a par for once as it was more the way you show your friend a move and then get them to copy... However, I did notice that she was analysing what she was actually doing and translating that into teaching words to explain it to me. OK I couldn't ever pass a figures or moves test on them at the moment, but I do now have all 8 loops.
What really did impress me was how she was able to analyse her own body movements which are second nature to her, explain them and then analyse what I was doing wrong. As others are saying remembering how you learnt how to do a 3 turn might be difficult, but analysing what you're doing now and explaining that to others is the real skill in coaching.

[Nate]

My coach takes lessons from top coaches for her own skating purposes, and is testing up herself.  She goes to camps where top coaches teach.  She can demonstrate everything up to a double salchow but she doesn't usually do more than a lutz in lessons (for obvious reasons ).  She's the best "skater" out of all the coaches at the rink.  That's why I chose her.  If you cannot demonstrate things, you are no use to me.  Not only is the demonstration good to get the mechanics through to the skater, but seeing the coach do the skill also helps instill more confidence in the skater (the "ah, so it IS possible" factor).

For example, Audrey Wiessiger made a point on ICS that when she is preparing a student for quads and triple axels, etc. she likes to bring them to competitions or rinks where skaters practice and land the jump because of hte "ah, so it IS possible" factor.  Seeing other skaters (or coaches) do it is a huge confidence boost and gets a lot of "nerves" out of the way.

[kssk8fan]

I guess I'm in the minority here.   I really don't think it's important for the coaches to be able to do or demonstrate an element.  I think it's more important for them to have a fundamental understanding of figure skating and a great ability to transfer their understanding into teaching format.  I do think it's important that they have skated or continue to skate and it's crucial they continue their education.  Do you have to have been able to do a quad before you teach one???  I don't think so!   

Take gymnastics for instance.  I've never seen one high level gymnastics coach demonstrate anything!  I don't think it's necessary at all however I do believe they need to be able to teach and coach (there's a difference there....maybe a topic for another day).

[Sk8Dreams]

She's the best "skater" out of all the coaches at the rink.  That's why I chose her.  If you cannot demonstrate things, you are no use to me. 

Learning styles differ.  I teach many things I cannot do, and that's fine with my students.  I don't jump, so I have videos of jumps on my phone.  I'm very analytic and am constantly searching for new ways to get ideas across.  I also have a very good eye for what has gone wrong in a failed element.  If I get a student who really needs to see things I can't do, I recognize that I am not the best coach for that student, and recommend someone else.  OTOH, I know several former Olympic competitors who can't teach beginners to save their lives, and have made no effort to learn how, even though they have to teach LTS.

[FigureSpins]

I think you have to find the coaching style that works for you.  If the "Look at me show you what to do" works for you, fine.  However, a student who can listen to feedback and effect the changes/corrections will progress faster than a "mimic" skater because their lessons are more productive, assuming their coach can explain well.

FWIW, I've seen many of the best "skaters" turn out to be the worst instructors/coaches.  Their students never manage to "pick up" that wonderful skating because it's not self-taught: the coach's coaches are the people you should seek out instead of a personal demonstrator if your goal is to mimic the person's skating.

Even better than a coach demonstration is for the coach to draft another skater with good form to demonstrate it while the pro narrates and highlights key points.  It's difficult to talk when you're performing the jump/spin because you turn this way and that.  I like the video idea, sk8dreams.  That's a great idea.

Another point: some skaters figure they can stall or avoid something difficult if they ask for a demonstration.  It takes years of coaching experience to spot the slacker move, lol.  When it's obviously a stall tactic, I will say "It's YOUR lesson.  I don't need to do it for the third time.  It's more important for YOU to try and fail than stand around watching me skate."

I can learn by watching or by listening.  Sometimes I do both - it's the best of both worlds.

[jjane45]

OTOH, I know several former Olympic competitors who can't teach beginners to save their lives, and have made no effort to learn how, even though they have to teach LTS.

Many adult skaters at my rink avoid group lessons taught by a former World Champion. I managed 2 lessons and switched to a different time slot.

People value different things from lessons. I absolutely adore my Coach because he has great eyes and a drill for nearly everything. Does not bother me at all that he no longer demonstrates anything due to old age. If I need to see demonstrations there are videos on skating technique.

I wonder how high level skaters' priority list looks like when it comes to coaching change! =)

[vesperholly]

If you cannot demonstrate things, you are no use to me.

Wow, that's harsh, especially when you go on to say that Audrey Weisiger brings her students to watch jumps being performed ... not she actually performs the jumps herself. You must be a visual learner, and any coach worth their salt would figure out how to best teach to your learning style - much like Weisiger.

As for "monkey do, monkey teach", I've seen with my own eyes how untrue that is. I know of a former Worlds competitor who was landing up to triple loop in her prime. Her own students after many years of teaching have never had any "big" success - they finish middle to near end at Regionals and I haven't seen one land a double axel. It doesn't mean she's a bad coach, just that elite skating ability does not equal elite coaching ability.

[kssk8fan]

Here's a thought...if "monkey do, monkey teach" really worked, everyone would be able get all their triples by watching youtube!  LOL

[jjane45]

Here's a thought...if "monkey do, monkey teach" really worked, everyone would be able get all their triples by watching youtube!  LOL

Well there ARE visual learners out there, especially younger children. It's just the importance of live demonstrations ranks differently for different learning styles.

[Sk8tmum]

Here's a thought...if "monkey do, monkey teach" really worked, everyone would be able get all their triples by watching youtube!  LOL

I believe this is also a factor of the level of skating.  For example, my kid has been able to watch Youtube and the like and self-teach spin variations, transitions, and certain jump entries (successfully, according to the coach who does further refine them as they progress naturally); however, that is on top of a solid grounding in technical ability. Thus, it's a new "twist" on something already known, combined with a knowledge of how certain effects are possible.  A few years ago, as a much junior skater, I doubt that would have occurred.

Similarly with my other kid and ice-dance. At this point (working on Senior Silver dances, which is Killian/Blues/Paso/Starlight) - she can watch youtube etc to pick up timing, rhythm, and step sequences. However, I doubt she would have been able to pick up the Dutch Waltz on her own