Jennifer Kirk: my first break up

[jjane45]

http://www.jenniferkirk.com/2012/04/30/my-first-breakup/

She is such a beautiful writer and the blog gives a lot of insights about young athletes'emotional dependence on their coaches.

Parents, what have you observed about student-coach interactions?

[hopskipjump]

I know my dd would do anything for her coaches.  When she does well, her face lights up and then she looks for her coach with her eyes.  when one walks in the building dd pushes herself harder and looks for his reaction (even when he won't be with her for 20 minutes!) I see this in Jennifer's blog too.  The people pleasing gene.

The difference?  Her coaches are first and foremost: good people before being coaches.

That first scene Jennifer painted? With the candy bar? My husband would have said forget it and pulled her off the ice the minute that happened.

[JSM]

Coaches are huge influences on skaters, and I think some of them abuse that privilege.

My coach when I was a young girl deliberately sabotaged me.  It was essentially psychological warfare, to ensure that I would feel helpless without her.  I didn't know it at the time, but my mother did.  And she was so timid and afraid that she never did anything about it.  Sadly, I got my self esteem and lack of nerve from my mother.  It went on too long and any joy I had for the sport was lost.  It was why I went 15 years between competitions.

If I can give any advice to parents it is to get to know the coach and stand up for your child.  I, like many many young skaters, I'm sure, wanted to please my coach more than anyone else.  I let her walk all over me and humiliate me because I trusted in her 100%.  It was a mistake.

I'm venting because I think reading that piece brought up a lot of bad memories!  I feel for Jennifer, and what I went through can't even compare to what she went through.

[jjane45]

Thank you so much for sharing, JSM. I hope Jennifer's article also gives you some healing power!

[sampaguita]

In my current rink, I've seen some coaches treat their students really bad. They shout at them, make faces showing their disgust over the students' mistakes, etc. I've seen at least one kid look obviously disappointed, dissatisfied, name it, and I felt so sorry for her. I guess some coaches have this idea that all good (technically) coaches have to be evil to their students, and that the more they humiliate their students, the better they become in the eyes of others. I don't believe this at all, especially if you're teaching students in the basic levels. Twisted, right?

I think that the best thing about skating as an adult is that you already have a view of what you want to be, and what you are willing to give to get that. You're not at the mercy of any adult, because you can already think for yourself.

[Schmeck]

Abusive behavior aside, I'd rather have a coach that doesn't sugarcoat, and pushes a skater to reach heights he or she might not have thought attainable. I do think a parent needs to stay in the loop though, and have discussions with the skater to make sure that core self esteem is still healthy.

We've been on the other end of the spectrum - a coach that didn't push enough, and had a corral of little snowflakes. Once my daughter had two new coaches, she improved by leaps and bounds. One of the new coaches used to skate right up into her face while she was skating backwards, telling her to go faster! Of course I made sure that my daughter understood the motivation behind the coach's action, and checked to make sure she didn't feel threatened.

We also appreciate our dance instructor, who gets her girls to win competitions, and tells them they still weren't as great as they could be. Contrast that to other studios, where I overheard the instructor telling her girls they were great, when they were dreadful. One girl's pointe shoe fell off, they were out of sync, and sloppy. Heaven forbid they were told that they could have done a lot better!

I'm deeply appalled by the lack of action of Jenny Kirk's parents. Where were they in all of this? If Jenny feels like she was in an abusive situation, her parents are partly responsible too. I would have liked to see them charged with child neglect. Jenny was obviously too young to stand up for herself - and while I do not excuse Scotvold's behavior, I'm thinking the parents should share some of the blame too. 

[irenar5]

Jennifer's story reminded me of a book I read by a former national champion gymnast Jennifer Sey- "Chalked up".  Apparently this parental "look the other way" attitude was very common among elite gymnasts (don't know if it still is).  It seemed as long as there were results, parents were willing to go with anything the coach did.  At that high of a level the sacrifices of the athlete's families were so immense that the winning justified anything else- coaches' abuse, eating disorders, endless injuries, etc.    The book is a very candid heartbreaking story and I am sure a lot of skaters would relate to the issues brought up. 

[hopskipjump]

I've seen some coaches treat their students really bad. They shout at them, make faces showing their disgust over the students' mistakes, etc. I've seen at least one kid look obviously disappointed, dissatisfied, name it, and I felt so sorry for her.

One of dd's coaches is passionate about skating.  When something goes right he looks elated, when they have been working on the same thing for 6 months and it still is not right....he does look disappointed and so does dd.  I don't think that is wrong or abusive.  Wrong or abusive would be to tell her she is stupid, to belittle her, or give her a punishment or make her try it until she cries.  Instead he shows video, has more off ice, and they keep working at it.

As for exaggerated facial expressions - I think it's only natural if your coach isn't a yeller.  The ice is loud - sound bounces everywhere, so an exaggerated expression sometimes works.

As for a gym comparison - yes, the coach fills the parents head with dreams of grandeur.  You are told (dd was 4-5) that no one gets it more quickly, that if you push them, they will be great.  That scholarships roll in for elite gymnasts, banners showing the colleges are up.  So if they cry, tell them you'll take them out for pizza after or you'll buy a present if they don't complain.  There is a weird mind thing that happens....all the parents fine with it so you think it's YOU that is the strange one.

For us skate was totally different.  Coaches were more laid back, they seemed more interested in the child at that moment in time than focusing on creating a national champion from a 4 year old in the future.  I get the feeling too that they know we struggle to afford skate so we are out of the running from the get - go.  It doesn't matter if dd has the talent to be great if she doesn't have the resources for time with coaches and ice.  A little different from gym where we paid a monthly fee and the occasional private lesson.  Gym was half the price of ice and twice the time!

[isakswings]

I have witnessed abusive behavior from coaches. I have heard other parents talk about that abuse too. I honestly would not put up with that style of coaching for my kid. For one, my kid would shut down and the end result would not be productive. I also don't think instilling fear is the way to get results. I wondered for years why some parents put up with coaches who seem to coach similar to how Jennifer described Evy. I won't pay for someone to verbally assault my child. I think part of the reason this goes on for so long, is because some kids keep winning and their skill improves. I would imagine some parents look at it like it is worth it if the end result is their child being successful.

If anyone has seen the show "Dance Moms", Abby Miller comes across has a teacher/coach similar to what Jennifer described. Those parents seem to stick with her BECAUSE she produces excellent dancers who win. Granted, "Dance Moms" is a "reality" show and I am sure dramatized to some extent. That said, I do believe Abby Miller absolutely represents a style of teaching/coaching our kids can be exposed to. How do we as parents, know when we should step in? It is hard to know when it is acceptable and when it is something we should let stay between the student and his or her coach.

I think there is a difference between sugar coating and being honest. I think you can be honest and straight forward without making a student feel less then what they are. I also think it is the coaches job to BE hard on our skaters, but the trick is doing it in a constructive manner.

I enjoyed Jennifer's blog post.

[Query]

The Internet article could substantially kill and taint Evy's career.

I hope it's accurate.

[hopskipjump]

What is interesting though is that two different kids could have had two different experiences with the same coach during the years.

I've seen some coaches yell and then a skater tries harder and I've seen with the same coach a different  skater skate up to the coach and say something back.  The coach reacts differently - they end up laughing or giving another approach.

I'm thinking while Jennifer had a bad experience, there is another skater who might have seen a different Evie.  I'm not sure it would be devastating to his career.

[jjane45]

Frank Carrol immediately comes to mind as a "my way or the highway" coach. I bet Mirai Nagasu and Evan Lysacek have different feelings about training under him.

Jenny would not be the only/last athlete to talk about the dark side of sports. She has every right to write about her perception of the relationship to the best of her knowledge, a decade later or right after the break up. Parents decide for themselves if their skaters work well with tough love, and hopefully watch more closely for signs of emotional breakdown thanks to people like Jenny.

Brian Orser / Yuna Kim break up was on another dimension...

[VAsk8r]

There were two things about this article that stood out to me: the anecdote when Evy ignored Jennifer for the remaining 50 minutes of a practice session because she fell on a jump, and the part where she says he never asked her about school or her weekend. To simply ignore a skater because she isn't performing up to your expectations is immature and unprofessional. For comparison's sake, if a math student in a public school was trying but failing and asked the teacher for help, most everyone would believe it was part of the teacher's job to help. And every coach I know takes a moment to ask students how school and life are going. It's part of letting the student know you care about more than just her skating.

I don't think I have ever witnessed abuse by a coach, but now that I think about it, I'm not sure I'd know it if I saw it. My coach will say things like "If you don't lower that arm, I'm going to break it off!" but obviously I know she's not serious, and I don't think she'd say that to a kid who was likely to believe her. I've heard coaches say things like, "I would fail that element in a heartbeat if I were the judge," but never anything to the effect of, "you're stupid" or "you're horrible at skating" or something that seems likely to truly upset a student.

[jjane45]

There were two things about this article that stood out to me: the anecdote when Evy ignored Jennifer for the remaining 50 minutes of a practice session because she fell on a jump, and the part where she says he never asked her about school or her weekend.

My Coach never asked about my weekend / school / work / what not, but I don't doubt he cares for me and my skating. When I have questions he listens very attentively. I also have group coaches with whom I easily share life stories with. I think people simply draw the line between professional relationship and personal friendship differently.

Similarly, I don't mind the snickers bar episode as much. Some of my math professors in college are way more awkward than that.

On the other hand, completely ignoring student(s) in lesson is plain unacceptable. I would have severed the coaching relationship in this case.

I like what hopskipjump said

Her coaches are first and foremost: good people before being coaches.

[Query]

Maybe I mis-interpreted. Maybe what Jennifer calls "abuse" is within the behavior limits of good coaches when dealing with some students. She didn't say physical abuse, or "inappropriate touching". And Evy's behavior in not reciprocating feelings of intimacy was entirely appropriate.

I've watched young skaters respond very positively to certain coaches who spoke strictly, and who apparently enjoyed the overall experience of training within a verbally disciplined environment.

For myself, the person I think of as the most effective athletic teacher I've had was a kayaker instructor who had an extremely disciplined (but not abusive) manner of teaching.

It's not not clear whether a "practice session" constitutes a lesson. It might just be a freestyle session that Evy happened to attend. If it was not a lesson, Evy might have been financially justified in ignoring her. Maybe she was used to receiving a lot of attention, perhaps ever so slightly "spoiled", and couldn't bear not receiving as much as she was used to.

As to the reference to the fictitious boyfriend - we don't know what Evy actually said, or in what context. TV programs may edit responses, and cut and paste phrases together.

Jennifer writes so well and plausibly. When she says "abuse", it's easy to take that literally. I read her article, and want to take her side.

[sarahspins]

When she says "abuse", it's easy to take that literally.

Not all abuse is physical... emotional abuse can be just as painful, but it's much harder for an outsider to see.

There is a difference between being blunt and to the point in your coaching and saying things you know will cut deep.

[techskater]

It's not not clear whether a "practice session" constitutes a lesson. It might just be a freestyle session that Evy happened to attend.

  She means an event practice session for competition (like Nationals practice session for instance) which he was NOT justified in ignoring her if she was his only skater on that practice session as it was his responsibility to correct the issue with the jump before she got on the 6 minute and then to her event.

In her case, it was emotional abuse and could have been because of the mix of their personalities. 

[skatingmum2]

It really does depend on the child/coach what is abuse. Both of mine quite like a bit of sarcasm/criticism etc. Shouting doesn't seem to bother them much. Being ignored does.

What my 9 year old became upset about recently was an Eastern European coach who told him that he was so bad he wasn't worthwhile coaching (a disastrous session where his skating indeed became worse and worse where his axel looked more like three jumps at the end of it).  (A group program). He doesn't mind too much being shouted at or shouted "hold your landings longer" or  "relax your shoulders" or "hold your arms" (I'm not sure precisely what they say - I know shoulders and arms are slight problem areas). The odd roar when he has a fall usually makes him laugh.

There used to be a very moody coach (left the rink) and my daughter once spent an entire lesson pulling on his jacket begging him to coach her. I wasn't at the rink but several parents described her following him trying her best to get his attention and pulling on his arms/jackets while he turned his back on her over and over - chatting to other coaches and other kids.....He ignored her the entire half an hour lesson - she was hysterical at the end of the lesson and we never booked him again. (When I confronted him he told me my daughter was tired and not skating her best - not true - she had entered the lesson bouncing -  and a ridiculous excuse). Bizarrely he was horrible to her after then (no we didn't book another lesson) until she came third in a competition (where she was one of the younger skaters) when he appeared. teased her, tried to joke, praised her, mentioned she would have done better with better choreograph and  offered her a lesson and  attempted a hug! (She scornfully turned her back on him and told him not to touch her).

There are clear sport policies on what constitutes emotional abuse and rejection and ignoring can be part of that.