skatingforums
On the Ice => Sitting on the Boards Rink Side => Topic started by: falen on February 23, 2011, 01:15:40 PM
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A poster commented on not doing test track. DD's coach also does not want her to do test track. What is the deal? Is it perception.
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Always remember, and never forget, the USFSA's charter is to Create Champions for the USA!
In standard-track USFSA events, the skaters are typically doing programs with elements from one or two freeskate test levels higher than the event level. It might be because they're preparing to take that next test level, or it could be that they're just trying to be competitive with all of the other skaters who compete in that level with higher-level elements. In any case, the competition is more fierce, higher-level, and challenging than Test Track or ISI competitions.
Test track is US Figure Skating's attempt to entice recreational skaters to compete in USFSA competitions. Many of those skaters don't compete at all (testing only), or they compete in ISI competitions/events where there are restrictions on the elements. In test track, the programs are also restricted so that it limits what each skater can do in order to win.
I think there is a stigma associated with skating Test Track, just as there has always been towards competing in ISI. Those who want to "go for it" will always look down on others. Mostly, it's ego and attitude. To me, it's an opportunity for fair competition that can be fun and enjoyable for the skaters.
I'm not sure about coaches' attitudes so much as skaters and their parents. I know several coaches who recommend test track for less-competitive skaters. Those who appreciate being challenged are willing to accept their placements in standard-track.
Why don't you ask your coaches why they are recommending standard track?
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I know some coaches that want their more competitive younger students (I mean younger as in 7-10 pre pre/prelim 10-13 pre juv and 14-16 open juv/open pre juv 16-18 intermidate and up) Basically high school kids in standard track *if they have the skills to be competitive* and test track for the last starters or more recreational kids who still want to go to USFS comps and test in the testing structure. That's how I understand it.
If the kids capable of pulling off a standard open juv program (with up to a double loop and maybe a double flip) and they enter test track to win I think they are sandbagging.
Good coaches don't want kids "cheating" to win and good coaches don't want prefectly talented late starter or slower learners coming in last because of when the joined the sport. That is why they have test track. Some people think open juv is embarresing, some are excited to get that level. It all depends on the athlete and the coach.
Just my $0.02
Sorry for the ramble:)
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I did not think to ask because coach should know what is best for dd's ability. I was just wondering why someone would not want to be, in this case "refuse to go test track". Test track makes more sense to me, it seems like standard you can do things that you really should not have even seen. What is embarassing about open juv?
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When I started skating in the early 90's, test track (well, ISI, since that's what the rink did) was encouraged up until you had at least an axel and at least one double or were working on doubles... after that you converted over to standard track and started working on MIF and testing through USFSA and joined the skating club. Most skaters I knew didn't bother to test past FS 6 in ISI because of the opposite direction jumps. There were plenty of skaters who competed in both - ISI for fun, and USFSA as serious competition.
Things changed a little locally when we got another rink in town in 1996, and later in 1997 when they took over management of both rinks, we no longer had an ISI program through LTS, the LTS programs were based on USFSA basic skills. Currently there is still a local skating club affiliated with ISI, and it is still possible to test and compete with ISI, but it isn't through the rink exactly, it's through the club.
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The coaches here seem to encourage test track. One girl with an axel & a somewhat consistent double sal just tested her Pre-juv and Juv freestyle, I'm assuming she's going to do test track.
There's scads of kids in Pre-pre test track here, a couple in Prelim, and then nothing above that. In my entire region, only one girl does Pre juv TT and one girl does Senior TT. I have never seen any other kids skate TT above Prelim besides those two girls. That's not just my rink, either. It's pretty much the whole circle of competitive rinks in Florida. That's why I don't want to do it.
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hmm TT is more encouraged? Dd's is encouraging her to do standard. I'll have to do some digging.
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If you are young and get so the jumps and are on track to go to regionals in your age group then TT is not encourged. If you are 17 and just got your axel then juv level test track would be encouraged.
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In our club, anyone without a consistent axel or double jumps are encouraged to do TT. The little girls without axels take the PPM & PPF and skate up to the Preliminary level TT. You can skate up one level for TT. Once they get their axel they switch over to standard track. I have notice watching TT events that the jumps are limited, but the spins get progressively harder. There were quite a few girls doing laybacks in the Pre-Juv TT and that spin doesn't appear until the Juvenile test.
Teen girls without a consistent axel or double jumps also do TT here. They are most likely trying to get through as many tests as possible. They still want to compete. Many clubs use competition points for ice show solos and features. Schools that allow HS lettering for figure skating also use competitions as requirements.
There are many skaters that compete test track here. One thing I have noticed is the decrease in the huge Ltd PP FS at competitions. There used to be 9 or 10 groups of 9. TT groups usually only have 2 groups of 6 or 7.
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Essentially, Test Track is a label given to certain events in US Figure Skating competitions. The skaters have restrictions on the high-level elements they can use in their programs.
In the same level standard-track event at the same competition, the skaters have fewer do NOT have any restrictions, so they include the most difficult elements they can do cleanly.
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Essentially, Test Track is a label given to certain events in US Figure Skating competitions. The skaters have restrictions on the high-level elements they can use in their programs.
In the same level standard-track event at the same competition, the skaters have very few do NOT have any restrictions, so they include the most difficult elements they can do cleanly.
There actually are restrictions at certain levels for standard track:
Pre-pre is axel, no doubles
Prelim is axel, 2 doubles allowed
Pre-juv is 3 doubles
Juv is all doubles including double axel, no triples
Intermediate and up is unrestricted
The function of test track is just as others have stated--it's a good option for a late starter who has aged out of other levels or skaters who would not be competitive because they haven't got the jumps. Test track programs are restricted to what is included on the TEST for that level. So Test Track for Juvenile, would be axel, no doubles.
Skaters who are young enough & who are doing well with their jumps are generally not encouraged to switch to test track because there's no need.
For the older skater testing up is usually a bigger priority because we typically want to get them tested as high as possible before they graduate. So we don't want to hold them back while we wait for the jumps to come, like we do with the young kids.
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I find it interesting that there's Test track and Standard track in the US as we only have one system in the UK. At the low levels of competitions there are restrictions on elements (at beginners it's single jumps up to loop, level 1 allows flips, etc.). At all levels if the entries warrant it they may be split into age categories. However it's only the top three levels (8 to 10) which entitle you to qualify for the British Championships and you have to reach an IJS qualifying score (which accredits you with a Novice, Junior or Senior test pass). They system is designed to prevent too much sandbagging, although you do spot it at some of the lower levels (level 3 allows an axel although the test doesn't, to be competitive you need it). But as there are so many tests to pass (there's 3 for each level - moves, elements and free), skaters tend to test up if they can.
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(thread drift apologies…)
These stratified hierarchies, as implied by a number of posts on this thread and others, have broader repercussions Among coaches and some parents and skaters, there seems to be a strong set of biases and prejudices against the “easier” requirements of, say TT or ISI competitions. As Sierra has (incorrectly, IMHO) come to believe, skaters who “do” TT are perceived as unequal to their competitive peers. In her case, this conviction appears to emanate from other skaters and probably their parents.
The distinction is only technical in skating terms but the biases have very real consequences. For example, our club (long before me) was nearly torn apart by quarreling about which skaters deserved club funding—“competitive” skaters who put the club’s name in lights; or the vast majority of skaters, who skated recreationally. Naturally, all of this negatively affected rink culture.
Moreover, cultivating “competitive” skaters actually can affect your non-profit status with the IRS. It is the difference between an athletic organization (501 c 3) or a social welfare club (501 c 4). Given the difference in tax deductable write-offs for the two (former = yes, latter = no), it is of almost no $$ benefit for a club to serve non-competitive skaters.
It seems that the effort to include more non-competitive skaters in USFS competitions has led to greater and greater anxiety among parents and skaters, never a good thing.
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(thread drift apologies…)
These stratified hierarchies, as implied by a number of posts on this thread and others, have broader repercussions Among coaches and some parents and skaters, there seems to be a strong set of biases and prejudices against the “easier” requirements of, say TT or ISI competitions. As Sierra has (incorrectly, IMHO) come to believe, skaters who “do” TT are perceived as unequal to their competitive peers. In her case, this conviction appears to emanate from other skaters and probably their parents.
The reason I don't like TT is because nobody competes in it here. It's the same reason I didn't like Basic Skills when I used to do it. Basic had 3 people or less. Maybe in 3 years TT will be bursting with competitors, but right now, I'd be miserable competing in it. I just like to have people to compete against- I'm a competitive person by nature.
And, to delve further into it, how do you fit certain things into TT? Like spin variations? What determines whether you can have spin variations? Preliminary test requires a sit spin- but are you allowed to do a pancake in competition? Would you be called a sandbagger if you did do a pancake? To truly make TT restricted, there'd have to be rules outlining variations, difficult entrances (like OSE into lutz), etc. Because we all know that some kid could enter TT, stuff their program full of variations above their level (like layover camel & step sequence on one foot in Pre-juvenile), and blow the competition away. And that just defeats the point of TT.
I don't mean to make it sound like I'm trying to make points against TT, I'm just really curious to find out those things.
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And, to delve further into it, how do you fit certain things into TT? Like spin variations? What determines whether you can have spin variations? Preliminary test requires a sit spin- but are you allowed to do a pancake in competition? Would you be called a sandbagger if you did do a pancake? To truly make TT restricted, there'd have to be rules outlining variations, difficult entrances (like OSE into lutz), etc. Because we all know that some kid could enter TT, stuff their program full of variations above their level (like layover camel & step sequence on one foot in Pre-juvenile), and blow the competition away. And that just defeats the point of TT.
I don't mean to make it sound like I'm trying to make points against TT, I'm just really curious to find out those things.
When my DD skated Preliminary TT last year, the kids did 3 spins. One was usually a solo camel or sit spin. The second was usually a camel-sit spin. The third was usually either a camel-backspin or a sit-back sit. Most of the kids who did the sit-back sit could usually only get 1-2 revs on the back sit. None of the combos were particularly strong. Didn't seem to matter what the age was.
The Pre-Juvenile TT also did 3 spins. All of them did the camel-sit combo. Most of them did a lay-back. Then they did either the camel-backspin or the sit-back sit. I didn't see anyone do a pancake spin. I suppose they could do a sit-pancake combo instead of the sit-back sit.
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The reason I don't like TT is because nobody competes in it here. It's the same reason I didn't like Basic Skills when I used to do it. Basic had 3 people or less. Maybe in 3 years TT will be bursting with competitors, but right now, I'd be miserable competing in it. I just like to have people to compete against- I'm a competitive person by nature.
And, to delve further into it, how do you fit certain things into TT? Like spin variations? What determines whether you can have spin variations? Preliminary test requires a sit spin- but are you allowed to do a pancake in competition? Would you be called a sandbagger if you did do a pancake? To truly make TT restricted, there'd have to be rules outlining variations, difficult entrances (like OSE into lutz), etc. Because we all know that some kid could enter TT, stuff their program full of variations above their level (like layover camel & step sequence on one foot in Pre-juvenile), and blow the competition away. And that just defeats the point of TT.
I don't mean to make it sound like I'm trying to make points against TT, I'm just really curious to find out those things.
Your coach and/or the person who choreographs you, would/should ensure that your program is acceptable. As for sandbaggers: they exist everywhere, in Competitive, in Basic skills, and in test track. It simply is a reality of skating. However, I will point out that in test track, at least in Canada, we have restrictions on what jumps and spins can be done. I will also point out that some kids who do test track do so because they may be exceptionally "good" at some aspects, such as, say, spins, but can't land jumps at a level to skate competitively, thus, their spins may be extremely high level but their jumps are far more basic. BTW: a pancake is a difficult variation, however, for some skaters, it's easy, and easier than a "true" sit spin.
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Has anyone mentioned that the Test Track competitions are a relatively new idea? Lke maybe in the last 2 or three years? I think some regions may have gotten more into it than others. I know that in our area of the Pacific NW we really don't have enough skaters to really fill the Test Track competition slots. It may become more popular but so far I think the coaches want it but it hasn't quite caught on yet.
Just my 2 cents.
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When my DD skated Preliminary TT last year, the kids did 3 spins. One was usually a solo camel or sit spin. The second was usually a camel-sit spin. The third was usually either a camel-backspin or a sit-back sit. Most of the kids who did the sit-back sit could usually only get 1-2 revs on the back sit. None of the combos were particularly strong. Didn't seem to matter what the age was.
The Pre-Juvenile TT also did 3 spins. All of them did the camel-sit combo. Most of them did a lay-back. Then they did either the camel-backspin or the sit-back sit. I didn't see anyone do a pancake spin. I suppose they could do a sit-pancake combo instead of the sit-back sit.
Wait. Camel in Preliminary? Camel & camel-sit isn't tested until Pre-juv. And a change foot spin in a sit position is not tested until Juvenile. I thought it was restricted to the elements on the test.
Now I'm confused.
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There are no restrictions on spins. Look it up on the USFS website.
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I didn't realize it was just geared towards late starters - in that case, it makes sense.
There are limits on spins and jumps in Test Track. Example: Limited Beginner- and Beginner-event skaters can't do sit or camel spins. Pre-Preliminary can do up to two spins w/ different positions, but no combinations. (Camels are okay) Each spin has to be in one position only, with no change of foot. TT Preliminary-event skaters can't do flying spins.
http://www.usfsa.org/content/Levels.pdf
Those restrictions were repeated in a few competition announcements I checked.
Icedancer2 is correct: Test Track is still a pretty new concept that needs a little more time to catch on, but can serve a population.
More difficult elements from higher-level tests are allowed because it's cost-effective to pass a level, say Pre-Preliminary, and start working on a Preliminary-level program to use for Pre-Prel competitions and eventually, a Preliminary test program. That pattern of using a higher-level program follows throughout the USFSA structure in both standard- and test-track. I rarely talk about sandbaggers for that reason: it's just standard operating procedure.
I think part of the delay in Test Track "catching on" is because it's perceived to be the same as ISI, where you can't do elements above the test level. It offers the opportunity to be quite competitive due to the limited restrictions, but at a step below the standard-track. I wish they had put the same-level test element restrictions onto the event so that it would be easier to explain and more familiar for those skaters graduating from Basic Skills to standard-track testing. If they had made the limits lower, it would have more appeal for the recreational skaters.
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So, when do you know if you should switch to TT? My daughter is standard right now and will be 13 in May. Just curious. I think her coach wants to keep her in the standard track but I wonder sometimes if she should try TT. That said, dd is working on learning double jumps and more complicated spins. I guess this is something I let dd and her coach determine? Right now, I think she can be competitive at the level she is at but she does struggle some with elements at times.
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I have to honestly ask this. What's the point of Test Track if it doesn't correspond exactly to test levels?
It's pretty much exactly like standard track with some spin restrictions thrown in. Standard track, there are jump restrictions for the first five levels.
The spins are higher level than the jumps too. Loop =/= Camel in Pre-pre. Which destroys any thought of my ever going into TT because my best elements would be limited and my worst elements not limited, or limited very little.
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Not exactly. You competed No Test right? You could easily make that program Prelim Test, add a full length step sequence and one more spin and its Pre-Juv test. When your axel is competition ready you can go for Juv and once you get some doubles ready you can try intermidiate.
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I have to honestly ask this. What's the point of Test Track if it doesn't correspond exactly to test levels?
For a while I thought I understood it, but test track now confuses me even more. :giveup:
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Hmmm, it really sounds like USFS's attempt to compete with ISI competitions, maybe that's the point? Get as many possible entrants for a competition? To be more democratic and inclusive? To try to actually make some $$$ at non-qualifying competitions?
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For a while I thought I understood it, but test track now confuses me even more. :giveup:
Same with me. 88)
Hmmm, it really sounds like USFS's attempt to compete with ISI competitions, maybe that's the point? Get as many possible entrants for a competition? To be more democratic and inclusive? To try to actually make some $$$ at non-qualifying competitions?
USFS has the national champions. And now they want ISI's skaters too? haha.
I'm actually really psyched for an upcoming ISI comp I'm doing because nobody can do anything higher level than a camel sit. ;D But for some reason, USFS is just never going to restrict spins. Above a certain level, it's just anything goes.
Not exactly. You competed No Test right? You could easily make that program Prelim Test, add a full length step sequence and one more spin and its Pre-Juv test. When your axel is competition ready you can go for Juv and once you get some doubles ready you can try intermidiate.
Why bother? In the future, Preliminary ST would be better for me than Int TT because in Int I could only do dbl. toe or sal, and frankly I'm pretty sure my double loop is going to be landed first & will be better than my sal. I can do a dbl loop in Prelim ST, which plays upon my strengths, not many people in Prelim have double loops. Not to mention the third spin- I don't think I have three good spins.
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I don't get what the point of test and standard track is. surely those who are able to do the higher level elements should test up so they can get to the qualifying levels quicker? Those that can't will stay at the lower levels. If you make every level requirements those of the equivalent test with perhaps one or two stretch elements, then those who are landing the harder stuff will either not be able to use it, or will have to test up to be able to make best use of their skills. Natural selection will eventually mean that the top people succeed at the qualifying competitions.
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History lesson: Test Track evolved from the "Restricted" category that a lot of clubs used in non-qualifying competitions when the gap between what a skater needed to pass the thest and what was need to compete grew so wide that less-competitive skaters were dropping out all together. "Restricted" events to limited to just the elements required to pass the test, so there was aplace for skaters who just wanted to test could compete against others of similar mind. A lot of skaters and coaches used the Restricted events to guage whether or a not a skater was ready to test or stood a chance of passing the test above the level they were on.
Program Development picked up on that idea and came up with Competitive Test Track. The levels don't exactly line up with the tests but it does give the average skaters another option. That gives competitions more entrants, which brings them more income, which helps continue the sport's development.
Not every skater is (or wants to be) a national competitor. Test track appeals to a different mentality than the competitive tracks. It's not better or worse, it's just different.
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As bluemoon said, this is only the 2nd year of test track competitions. USFS is concerned that a lot kids are dropping out of figure skating, because they aren't competitive. They are also pushing introductory memberships and collegiate memberships. They want to keep the membership up.
Test track is very well excepted here. Lots of kids compete at it, but I live in a cold weather state where just about everyone learns to skate. You don't have to like or skate it. It might not be right for you or your child. Don't bash it. It gives kids that want to do other things in addition to skate an opportunity to compete on a more even playing field. It makes more money for clubs that hold competitions. It makes clubs that test more money, because kids take those FS tests instead of holding off on them. It makes USFS more money, because more kids stick with it longer (i.e. more memberships and test fees and pin sales).
I'm not sure why being inclusive is threatening to some people. If you are a star, you will still shine. You will just have more people to admire you.
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As bluemoon said, this is only the 2nd year of test track competitions. USFS is concerned that a lot kids are dropping out of figure skating, because they aren't competitive. They are also pushing introductory memberships and collegiate memberships. They want to keep the membership up.
Test track is very well excepted here. Lots of kids compete at it, but I live in a cold weather state where just about everyone learns to skate. You don't have to like or skate it. It might not be right for you or your child. Don't bash it. It gives kids that want to do other things in addition to skate an opportunity to compete on a more even playing field. It makes more money for clubs that hold competitions. It makes clubs that test more money, because kids take those FS tests instead of holding off on them. It makes USFS more money, because more kids stick with it longer (i.e. more memberships and test fees and pin sales).
I'm not sure why being inclusive is threatening to some people. If you are a star, you will still shine. You will just have more people to admire you.
It has been relatively popular here...I know, when both my girls were skating, my older girl just wasn't big on jumping and such, and so she was not as competitive...so we entered her in TT events so she could go to the same open competitions as her sister. I know a few families who do something similar.
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I'm actually really psyched for an upcoming ISI comp I'm doing because nobody can do anything higher level than a camel sit.
Sierra,
I know this may seem rude to ask, but given your Mom’s reaction to your last competition, why are you doing ISI Freestyle 5? This level requires an axel. Your competitors should have this jump and you’ve noted numerous times that it is a problem for you. Since it seems like a great opportunity to “prove” to your Mother that you are competitive, why not do Freestyle 4 instead?
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Same with me. 88)
I'm pretty sure my double loop is going to be landed first & will be better than my sal. I can do a dbl loop in Prelim ST, which plays upon my strengths, not many people in Prelim have double loops. Not to mention the third spin- I don't think I have three good spins.
And why on earth are you working on doubles if you don't have three good spins?? Even to pass Preliminary free you need three solid spins, upright scratch, sit, and backspin. Could your spins be why you're not placing higher at competition?
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Sierra,
I know this may seem rude to ask, but given your Mom’s reaction to your last competition, why are you doing ISI Freestyle 5? This level requires an axel. Your competitors should have this jump and you’ve noted numerous times that it is a problem for you. Since it seems like a great opportunity to “prove” to your Mother that you are competitive, why not do Freestyle 4 instead?
She shouldnt compete in 5, since to do that you have to pass 5.To pass 5 you need a axle.Did your coach pass you in 5 already?
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Sierra,
I know this may seem rude to ask, but given your Mom’s reaction to your last competition, why are you doing ISI Freestyle 5? This level requires an axel. Your competitors should have this jump and you’ve noted numerous times that it is a problem for you. Since it seems like a great opportunity to “prove” to your Mother that you are competitive, why not do Freestyle 4 instead?
I'm doing Open Silver, which is 4-5. My coach put me in it so I could do a lutz. Sorry for the confusion.
And why on earth are you working on doubles if you don't have three good spins?? Even to pass Preliminary free you need three solid spins, upright scratch, sit, and backspin. Could your spins be why you're not placing higher at competition?
I have solid scratch (? revs), back scratch(10+ revs), and sit(7 revs). I meant three solid nice competition spins, such as sit change sit, layback into haircutter, camel catch.
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^^^ Wow - your test structure must differ widely from the Canadian one ... those 3 spins are on the lowest level test we have - and that test level doesn't even require an axel, just a waltz jump !
I'd also suggest that you might want to consider slightly less - ambitious - spins and master the camel, the camel/sit, a flying spin absolutely, before venturing off into things like laybacks and haircutters ... I'm baffled, like the other posters, on why you are focussing on doing double jumps when you haven't got all of the basic spin positions - under the points system, spins can and do often count for more than jumps ... which is why mastering them is critical to succeeding.
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Just a general observation: one of the most common complaints I hear from judges at non-qualifications is (and this is a direct quote from a National Level judge): "I don't care how many times they jump, I want to see them SKATE!"
Obviously this is an exaggeration: the judges do care about jumps and spins but in groups where just about everyone is doing the same jumps and the same spins, then it generally comes down to who can actually skate between those elements - using edges and flow and soft knees.
God knows I'm never going to beat anyone in my age group with my jumps or spins (the spins are getting better, though :) ) but I've found over the last few years that it's my Skating Skills that keep me from finishing last all the time. And for the Skating Skills I thank all the years I spent doing figures, however badly I did them. As one judge told me once after a particularly poor Adult Dance session "At least you HAVE edges! Too many people out there only THINK they do!"
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I'd also suggest that you might want to consider slightly less - ambitious - spins and master the camel, the camel/sit, a flying spin absolutely, before venturing off into things like laybacks and haircutters ... I'm baffled, like the other posters, on why you are focussing on doing double jumps when you haven't got all of the basic spin positions - under the points system, spins can and do often count for more than jumps ... which is why mastering them is critical to succeeding.
I see no reason to not work on ANY new jumps just because my spins improve slower. I have a backspin. That's all that is required for doubles. The spins are catching up, because I'm not breezing through the doubles like I did with singles. I probably won't have doubles in competition for quite a while.
Flying spin before layback? Layback is easier than a flying spin, and most skaters start on layback sometime after beginning camel. And it's not like I'm teaching myself these spins- my coach is having me work on them. She focuses more on the spins in my program, like the camel, but we still do work on other spins.
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We are trying Prelim test track for the first time in the Florida open. From what I understand the TT scoring uses the 6.0 system? I think this will be a big help, as the other judging system is all over the place. In the last competition a girl had one judge place her 1st and one 8th!
My DD is 12, passed ppm and ppf and is starting to work on pm. She is just starting to get her Axel. The pre-preliminary Free skate at the Florida open did not break down into A/B like our local competitions do (without and with Axel), so I felt she would be the only girl without an Axel. her program from pre-preliminary A (single jumps and combos that included lutz/flip) fit into prelim Test track best. She spins better than she jumps, so it makes sense.
The question is, do we then continue in the Test Track route, or go back to traditional. I think the next local competition doesnt offer TT. Also, we might have an Axel by then.
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You can move back and forth between Well Balanced and Test Track events from one competition to another. You just can't enter both at the SAME competition. You're not locked in to one or the other for an entire season.
6.0 judging isn't going to eliminate variations in scoring, though. I've seen plenty of competitions where the same skater was placed near the top and near the bottom in the same event by different judges. There is some subjectivity in judging, and different judges value different things. If all the skaters in the group are technically pretty even, the judges have to go with other things in order to place them - one might reward speed, another high spiral positions, another musicality. That can result in very mixed ordinals.
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We are trying Prelim test track for the first time in the Florida open. From what I understand the TT scoring uses the 6.0 system? I think this will be a big help, as the other judging system is all over the place. In the last competition a girl had one judge place her 1st and one 8th!
My DD is 12, passed ppm and ppf and is starting to work on pm. She is just starting to get her Axel. The pre-preliminary Free skate at the Florida open did not break down into A/B like our local competitions do (without and with Axel), so I felt she would be the only girl without an Axel. her program from pre-preliminary A (single jumps and combos that included lutz/flip) fit into prelim Test track best. She spins better than she jumps, so it makes sense.
The question is, do we then continue in the Test Track route, or go back to traditional. I think the next local competition doesnt offer TT. Also, we might have an Axel by then.
6.0 is that scoring system-- the skaters are merely ranked and yes sometimes it is all over the place. I have even seen some weird stuff in IJS-- like one of dd's friends got +1 from 3 judges GOE on one element that another judge gave her -2-- SAME element. I have had my own dd take a MITF test where one judge upgraded her on one move and another actually criticized it.. You can go back and forth between test track and well balanced if needed.
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You're not locked in to one or the other for an entire season.
No, but if you've opted to go test track and have tested up, you probably won't be competitive in standard track... that's the downside, I think.
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No, but if you've opted to go test track and have tested up, you probably won't be competitive in standard track... that's the downside, I think.
Yes, but it's good to know you can move back and forth in case a competition doesn't offer Test Track events, a situation the original poster mentioned.
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6.0 is that scoring system-- the skaters are merely ranked and yes sometimes it is all over the place. I have even seen some weird stuff in IJS-- like one of dd's friends got +1 from 3 judges GOE on one element that another judge gave her -2-- SAME element. I have had my own dd take a MITF test where one judge upgraded her on one move and another actually criticized it.. You can go back and forth between test track and well balanced if needed.
I had a judge explain 6.0 judging like this: judges want an entire basket of fruit. When you have large groups, a lot of times you have a skater that offers an apple, a skater that offers a banana, a skater that offers an orange and a skater that offers a grapefruit and it will depend on what fruit the judge likes best where each skater is placed. When a skater is able to offer a grapefruit AND an apple, that skater does better. Same for testing - some judges will reward good posture and others are looking for depth of edge and speed.
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I had a judge explain 6.0 judging like this: judges want an entire basket of fruit. When you have large groups, a lot of times you have a skater that offers an apple, a skater that offers a banana, a skater that offers an orange and a skater that offers a grapefruit and it will depend on what fruit the judge likes best where each skater is placed. When a skater is able to offer a grapefruit AND an apple, that skater does better. Same for testing - some judges will reward good posture and others are looking for depth of edge and speed.
I love this analogy, thanks so much for sharing it with us.
I really think skating speed is critical, as long as it's done properly, so let's make that the apple.
What ELSE should the basket o' skating fun include for a full fruit salad?
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I had a judge explain 6.0 judging like this: judges want an entire basket of fruit. When you have large groups, a lot of times you have a skater that offers an apple, a skater that offers a banana, a skater that offers an orange and a skater that offers a grapefruit and it will depend on what fruit the judge likes best where each skater is placed. When a skater is able to offer a grapefruit AND an apple, that skater does better. Same for testing - some judges will reward good posture and others are looking for depth of edge and speed.
I love this analogy, thanks so much for sharing it with us.
I really think skating speed is critical, as long as it's done properly, so let's make that the apple.
What ELSE should the basket o' skating fun include for a full fruit salad?
Usually skaters have little bit of everything to varying degrees. So skating competition = well-balanced large fruit platter competition? lol judges assign different weights to each skill and then add them up?
Say skater X = 3 apples + 2 pears + 5 oranges + 1 lemon
Judge A: apple = 1, pear = 4, orange = 2, lemon = 0 -> score = 21
Judge B: apple = 3, pear = 2, orange = 1, lemon = -1 -> score = 17
Sounds like weighted PCS score... (runs away and hides)
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Usually skaters have little bit of everything to varying degrees. So skating competition = well-balanced large fruit platter competition? lol judges assign different weights to each skill and then add them up?
<snip>
Sounds like weighted PCS score... (runs away and hides)
Yeah, I understood the analogy.
As I suggested, let's let the Apple be "skating speed."
What ELSE should the basket o' skating fun include for a full fruit salad?7
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Yeah, I understood the analogy.
As I suggested, let's let the Apple be "skating speed."
What ELSE should the basket o' skating fun include for a full fruit salad?7
there seems to be some sort of emphasis on carriage/posture and the whole stretching the free leg type of thing.
I'd also add flow. There's no point in skating fast if you've got to slow down to do the waltz jump in your program.
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Okay, so far we have:
. Speed with continuous flow
. Carriage/Posture with Extension
. Jumps which have clean entries/landing and are fully rotated
. Spins that are strong and fast with the correct number of revolutions
. Field Moves that connect everything together seamlessly
. Artistry
. Choreography
. Music interpretation
What else is part of the fruit basket?
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Well, obviously, the elements.
Do you want to say "Jumps" are one kind of fruit, "Spins" are another, "Steps" another, and also maybe "Field Moves" to incorporate all kinds of spirals, spread eagles, etc.? Then some of those kinds of fruit have different varieties within them.
And choreography and interpretation of the music -- those are separate scores in IJS, but they could probably be considered together in 6.0.
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Okay - added!
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Okay, so far we have:
. Speed with continuous flow
. Carriage/Posture with Extension
. Jumps which have clean entries/landing and are fully rotated
. Spins that are strong and fast with the correct number of revolutions
. Field Moves that connect everything together seamlessly
. Artistry
. Choreography
. Music interpretation
What else is part of the fruit basket?
there seems to be some sort of emphasis on carriage/posture and the whole stretching the free leg type of thing.
I'd also add flow. There's no point in skating fast if you've got to slow down to do the waltz jump in your program.
This is making me realize that I'm missing some fruit. ;D Is it possible to have negative fruit?
But it isn't my fault I can't interpret music. My coach has to hold back laughter when I try.
Think I'll add Presentation. Is the skater presenting the program to the judges? Smiling? Bows? Looks happy? Or does she wince after a mistake and stare at the ice, desperate for it to be over?
Says the girl who fell at the end of her program and, whilst sitting on the ice, quickly threw her arms into finishing pose and smiled hugely at the judges.
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Updated list:
. Presentation
. Speed with continuous flow
. Carriage/Posture with Extension
. Jumps which have clean entries/landing and are fully rotated
. Spins that are strong and fast with the correct number of revolutions
. Field Moves that connect everything together seamlessly
. Artistry
. Choreography and Correctness (no "spiders" - allowed elements only)
. Music interpretation
What else is part of the fruit basket?
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All of these factors you list seem to be basically a summation of what is measured in the PCS score for those skating under points. But, well.
I would also add: Not including invalid or illegal elements. That would be sort of like having a spider crawling out of your basket of fruit ... makes no-one want to reach in and sample.
As another thought: in 6.0, the first skater is the reference skater. Thus, that skater is the one that everyone else is ranked against. In a huge flight ... which can happen ... it is difficult to rank, say, the 15th skater against that reference skater. So, in this instance, the judge is overwhelmed by this huge display of various types of fruit ... and may not be able to make the most perfect choice, and end up with the slightly overripe pear when the perfectly formed plum s/he saw on an earlier stand would actually have been better ...
BTW: my kid always places significantly higher under points than under OBO as the requirement to formally measure and account for makes the judges focus on her skills, transitions, choreo ...
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Okay, added the "correctness" to choreography.
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I had a judge explain 6.0 judging like this: judges want an entire basket of fruit. When you have large groups, a lot of times you have a skater that offers an apple, a skater that offers a banana, a skater that offers an orange and a skater that offers a grapefruit and it will depend on what fruit the judge likes best where each skater is placed. When a skater is able to offer a grapefruit AND an apple, that skater does better. Same for testing - some judges will reward good posture and others are looking for depth of edge and speed.
For testing MITF, the judges are given specific primary and secondary foci, so they have more structure, and should not be favoring something not listed as a focus. Not sure if they are given foci for freeskate tests?
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All of these factors you list seem to be basically a summation of what is measured in the PCS score for those skating under points. But, well.
I would also add: Not including invalid or illegal elements. That would be sort of like having a spider crawling out of your basket of fruit ... makes no-one want to reach in and sample.
As another thought: in 6.0, the first skater is the reference skater. Thus, that skater is the one that everyone else is ranked against. In a huge flight ... which can happen ... it is difficult to rank, say, the 15th skater against that reference skater. So, in this instance, the judge is overwhelmed by this huge display of various types of fruit ... and may not be able to make the most perfect choice, and end up with the slightly overripe pear when the perfectly formed plum s/he saw on an earlier stand would actually have been better ...
BTW: my kid always places significantly higher under points than under OBO as the requirement to formally measure and account for makes the judges focus on her skills, transitions, choreo ...
I agree, my dd seems so far to have placed more where I and her coaches felt she belonged at IJS
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For testing MITF, the judges are given specific primary and secondary foci, so they have more structure, and should not be favoring something not listed as a focus. Not sure if they are given foci for freeskate tests?
But, we're discussing Test Track competition events that are judged under 6.0, right? So why are IJS or test evaluations being brought into play - are the judging criteria identical among the three? (Testing, 6.0 and IJS)
A coach made a comment last summer, stating that judges are "expecting to see" IJS-level skating under 6.0, which is part of the confusion for me - for Test Track and Basic Skills events, there are limitations on the skating elements. How do you reconcile those diverse expectations? Are the judges sitting there getting just as confused as we are, applying IJS and test criteria to 6.0 to somehow come up with a number?
I'll let you know next month - either someone put the wrong level event on a skater's exhibition program or choreographed it incorrectly.
Case in point: two skaters do Test Track Pre-Preliminary freeskate. The competition announcement clearly says "one position spins only." and "only single jumps Flip, Loop, Toe Loop and Salchow." One skater's program includes two or three Lutzes and a lovely camel-sit-scratch combination spin as the last element. How do you judge that under 6.0? There's a .1 .2 deduction per element - can you afford to throw away .3 - .4 .6 - .8 points and let the ordinals fall where they may?
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But, we're discussing Test Track competition events that are judged under 6.0, right? So why are IJS or test evaluations being brought into play - are the judging criteria identical among the three? (Testing, 6.0 and IJS)
A coach made a comment last summer, stating that judges are "expecting to see" IJS-level skating under 6.0, which is part of the confusion for me - for Test Track and Basic Skills events, there are limitations on the skating elements. How do you reconcile those diverse expectations? Are the judges sitting there getting just as confused as we are, applying IJS and test criteria to 6.0 to somehow come up with a number?
I'll let you know next month - either someone put the wrong level event on a skater's exhibition program or choreographed it incorrectly.
Case in point: two skaters do Test Track Pre-Preliminary freeskate. The competition announcement clearly says "one position spins only." and "only single jumps Flip, Loop, Toe Loop and Salchow." One skater's program includes two or three Lutzes and a lovely camel-sit-scratch combination spin as the last element. How do you judge that under 6.0? There's a .2 deduction per element - can you afford to throw away .6 - .8 points and let the ordinals fall where they may?
I don't get how you deduct in ranking anyway-- deduct from what? there are no scores....
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I don't get how you deduct in ranking anyway-- deduct from what? there are no scores....
There are underlying judges' scores (Technical and Presentation) that create the ordinals for 6.0. It would be better if they actually posted the scores for Basic Skills and Test Track - it's a valuable information tool to be able to see how you fared in numbers.
However, I believe the referee notes any required deductions for illegal elements, time overruns/underruns, etc.
If he/she is on the ball, their deductions are made to every judge's score for the offending skater.
The Test Track outline clearly says there's a deduction for elements that are not permitted.
http://www.usfsa.org/Content/Levels-landscape.pdf
This explanation is for a standard-track 6.0 event, not Test Track or Basic Skills:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=419
Of course, they all skated beautifully and didn't receive any deductions.
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A coach made a comment last summer, stating that judges are "expecting to see" IJS-level skating under 6.0, which is part of the confusion for me - for Test Track and Basic Skills events, there are limitations on the skating elements. How do you reconcile those diverse expectations? Are the judges sitting there getting just as confused as we are, applying IJS and test criteria to 6.0 to somehow come up with a number?
I think what is meant when it is said that judges are expecting to see IJS level skating under 6.0 is that now they've been trained in IJS they are looking at things with that critical eye they use for IJS. So they're mentally awarding GOEs for jumps and spins, counting revolutions on spins and checking whether sit spins are low enough to be text book definition whereas before they might have just expected close enough at the lower competition levels.
This all means that whereas before judge A may have favoured apples in the fruit basket and judge B bananas, they're both now looking at different things than they were before.
I've heard it said that a lot of judges find it difficult to switch back to their old judging technique once they've started judging IJS. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as it means correct technique is emphasised from the beginning and things aren't added to programs because they're "close enough."
Equally test evaluations are important when considering judging as it gives an indication as to what judges will be considering important.
I've never understood the marks from the NISA testing system, but I've read and been told that when you test a free skate program the standard is based on the 6.0 system as there's guidelines as to what mark you should be getting based on your level. Obviously Olympic skaters were working close to 6.0 whereas basic skills might be getting up to the 1.0 end of things. Now how they test a program against a book I've got no idea...
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There are underlying judges' scores (Technical and Presentation) that create the ordinals for 6.0. It would be better if they actually posted the scores for Basic Skills and Test Track - it's a valuable information tool to be able to see how you fared in numbers.
However, I believe the referee notes any required deductions for illegal elements, time overruns/underruns, etc.
This explanation is for a standard-track 6.0 event, not Test Track or Basic Skills:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=419
Of course, they all skated beautifully and didn't receive any deductions.
I guess if you sandbag enough you can still win doing illegal elements-- honestly, I think illegal elements should be a dq-- that would stop people from doing that
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I guess if you sandbag enough you can still win doing illegal elements-- honestly, I think illegal elements should be a dq-- that would stop people from doing that
I don't think there are any disqualifications in figure skating, except for not being on the ice and skating within the time limits and/or skating in a lower level event when you had tested higher. I don't know that penalizing the skater for a coach's error is fair, but you're right: the penalty needs to be more severe if they want Test Track to be effective. The rules should apply to everyone.
Now that I look at it, the .1/element penalty is meaningless unless it's a close competition and the referee is watching carefully. Having those elements in there can assure (if they're well-done) the skater is scored as "the best," which can open enough of a lead to overcome dinky little deductions.
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The deductions can certainly affect the placements in 6.0. They are punitive; the judges award them; and the referee checks to make sure that they are applied. I have certainly seen on more than one occasion parents and skaters scratching their heads over why the skater with NO doubles beat the skaters with doubles ... only to be reminded that, oops, no doubles are allowed in that level ... that's why the element limitations were put in place, to discourage sandbagging and to encourage skaters to move up to where they are able to use those elements. The deductions are significantly severe enough, at least in Canada, that a skater will be significantly affected by the illegal elements.
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The deductions can certainly affect the placements in 6.0. They are punitive; the judges award them; and the referee checks to make sure that they are applied. I have certainly seen on more than one occasion parents and skaters scratching their heads over why the skater with NO doubles beat the skaters with doubles ... only to be reminded that, oops, no doubles are allowed in that level ... that's why the element limitations were put in place, to discourage sandbagging and to encourage skaters to move up to where they are able to use those elements. The deductions are significantly severe enough, at least in Canada, that a skater will be significantly affected by the illegal elements.
I've heard in the UK that the deduction is 1.0 on the 6.0 system. I don't know whether that's rumour or not, but the coaches pay attention when choreographing programs.
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I don't think there are any disqualifications in figure skating, except for not being on the ice and skating within the time limits and/or skating in a lower level event when you had tested higher. I don't know that penalizing the skater for a coach's error is fair, but you're right: the penalty needs to be more severe if they want Test Track to be effective. The rules should apply to everyone.
Now that I look at it, the .1/element penalty is meaningless unless it's a close competition and the referee is watching carefully. Having those elements in there can assure (if they're well-done) the skater is scored as "the best," which can open enough of a lead to overcome dinky little deductions.
Yep...when my older dd was skating test track, there were blatant violations of the rules, and those girls were winning...they clearly belonged in another level.
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At our recent competition there was a girl skating no-test with a flip combo and doing loop-loop. The referree actually stopped me from announcnig the next skater, to take time to take out the rulebook to make sure the elements were legal.
Sadly, they were and she beat the little girls doing two foot spins and barely-there waltz jumps. Even if she hadn't tested, she should have skated up to pre-pre, those kids still didn't have these sorts of jumps!
I guess her club doesn't test until they have axels, where at our club they seem to enter pre-pre as soon as they can. No-test is mostly for kids just barely out of basic skills.
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At our recent competition there was a girl skating no-test with a flip combo and doing loop-loop. The referree actually stopped me from announcnig the next skater, to take time to take out the rulebook to make sure the elements were legal.
Sadly, they were and she beat the little girls doing two foot spins and barely-there waltz jumps. Even if she hadn't tested, she should have skated up to pre-pre, those kids still didn't have these sorts of jumps!
I guess her club doesn't test until they have axels, where at our club they seem to enter pre-pre as soon as they can. No-test is mostly for kids just barely out of basic skills.
In my area that is a typical no-test program its basically like a pre prepre with kids who haven't landed an axel. The kids with waltz jumps and sals do limited beginner.
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No test was the lowest non-LTS level.
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It would be better if they actually posted the scores for Basic Skills and Test Track - it's a valuable information tool to be able to see how you fared in numbers.
However, I believe the referee notes any required deductions for illegal elements, time overruns/underruns, etc.
The comment about fruit was more along the lines of how you get ordinals like 1 and 11 for the same skater in a large group when everyone makes a few mistakes and how unless the skater presents multiple fruits (say awesome skating skills AND spins, Ok jumps, versus awesome jumps that are expected at that level but OK skating and spins and so on...).
Posting judges' scores from Basic Skills would not be valuable. I know that I have judged basic skills events on numerous ocasions and I use various numbers for my first skater in order to have enough room to maneouver up or down and not box myself in. For example, I'll use a 2.5/2.5 for a Basic 6 FS first skater and go up or down from there. It has no basis to anything other than being a good place to start..I use my first skater as a "median mark"
The referee lets the judges know if deductions are to be taken. Sometimes, even with a deduction, that skater is just THAT much better.
My comment about testing (in reference to someone's comment that their dd got some above passing and some below passing for the same move depending on the judges) is based upon seeing it in action. Sometimes if the move is "around" passing standard, good presentation will sway a judge one way and another judge is swayed by speed or depth of edge more.
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For testing MITF, the judges are given specific primary and secondary foci, so they have more structure, and should not be favoring something not listed as a focus. Not sure if they are given foci for freeskate tests?
Actually, with the last changes to the MITF tests, there's no more primary and secondary foci. Something either is a focus for that move or it isn't.
The guidelines for the freeskating tests aren't phrased in terms of foci, because the program is judged as a whole and it's supposed to include all different kinds of fruit. :)
You can see both the moves and freeskating test forms here: http://usfigureskating.org/Shell.asp?sid=20822
The freeskate test forms list the required elements that must be completed, and also at the top there's a verbal description of the level of quality expected at that test level. Of course, different judges may have different mental matchups of those words and the actual skating.
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Ellyn, OMG, I love that link! Thank you so much!
I did notice that there were two parts to the focus, it's like they just took away the primary and secondary lingo, and strung the foci together?
Anyways, I don't know why I'm so interested in the testing, as my daughter isn't even skating anymore, LOL! I guess part if it is because we invested so much time and effort into getting the senior MITF done before she graduated high school. Skating was such a big part of our lives, and I miss it.
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I found this very interesting. I'm in Canada so our levels are different. My DDs are in Pre-Pre and Prelim, Starskate stream so what levels would they be skating in Test Track? My Pre-Pre skater is doing a Lutz, she does combo jumps like loop-loop, and is working on her lutz-loop. She does a camel/sit and a sit and she hasn't taken any tests to this point, they are not required. She skated her one year, last year in the old Elementary level and by default, had to move up to pre-pre.
My Prelim skater is doing her axle (which she can now almost land!), all of the other single jumps, she's allowed to do a double sal in this level but she hasn't got it yet. Her spins include a flying camel and a change sit. She's taken her prelim freeskate test.
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In my area that is a typical no-test program its basically like a pre prepre with kids who haven't landed an axel. The kids with waltz jumps and sals do limited beginner.
That is how it is around here. There are a few skaters in dd's club who will be skating non-test when the new season starts in June/July. In our competition announcements, it clearly states what elements are allowed and it is the same as pre-pre but no axel. Here, the girl you spoke of was in the right level. Interesting how it varies from area to area. I would think it would be the same...