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Announcements and Introductions => Media Center => Topic started by: Isk8NYC on March 29, 2015, 06:45:51 PM

Title: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: Isk8NYC on March 29, 2015, 06:45:51 PM
NJ is proposing an extension to their existing roller skating/skate boarding helmet law so that ice skating will require helmets for kids 17 and under.  It does allow FS competitors to go without a helmet.

http://files.ctctcdn.com/8c65664f001/fe4cb799-1bb0-44b5-ac94-4ad4d87f243d.pdf

Wonder how it would be applied to the young elite skaters participating a professional skating show like Stars on Ice?
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: skategeek on March 29, 2015, 06:59:01 PM
Interesting.  I wonder if being in a LTS class counts as being under the supervision of a coach?  (Our rink currently requires helmets for kids 7 and under in LTS, but I don't think it's a legal requirement.)  And how are they defining "organized competition"?  Would an in-house (non-USFSA or ISI) competition count?
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: Query on March 29, 2015, 07:59:33 PM
Quote
"ICE SKATES" MEANS A PAIR OF SHOES OR LIGHT BOOTS
WITH PERMANENTLY FIXED RUNNERS FOR SKATING ON ICE.

My skates aren't light. Are screws permanent? :)

Someone should suggest they require all ice to be soft. No hockey ice!
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: ChristyRN on March 29, 2015, 08:11:53 PM
I don't think it's a bad thing, but I also think it's like motorcycle helmets. There will always be some who think the government should keep out of personal lives, even when laws make sense. There's no denying that seatbelts and motorcycle helmets save lives, but there's the population that lives by the thought that they didn't wear seatbelts or bike helmets, put kids in car seats, or come in before dark after roaming the neighborhood all day long and yet they survived to adulthood.

I wonder if Crasche bands would be considered helmets or enough protection?
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: AgnesNitt on March 29, 2015, 09:55:35 PM
The issue is, there is no ASTM approved figure skating helmet. So NJ can mandate all they want, but unless there's a certified skating helmet there's a large chance that an improperly selected bicycle helmet can make an injury worse. Hello lawsuits!

Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: skategeek on March 29, 2015, 10:38:25 PM
Hmm.  Good point.  Are there approved helmets for roller skating/skateboarding?  Because it sounds like the existing law already covers those.  I wonder if that point has ever been brought up.
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: AgnesNitt on March 29, 2015, 10:49:35 PM
ASTM lists standards for Hockey, short track speed skating, roller skating, trick roller skating, but NO figure skating helmet.

This isn't just NJ saying "oh, bicycle helmets are good enough."  Helmets are designed to standards based on tests.

I wonder if ASTM is aware that NJ is posting this law....hmmm.
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: AgnesNitt on March 29, 2015, 11:01:04 PM
And so I just sent an email to the president of ASTM pointing out the proposed law in the event his organization wishes to comment.
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: skategeek on March 29, 2015, 11:08:48 PM
Troublemaker. :)  Hopefully it'll avoid an ill-conceived law.
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: Query on March 30, 2015, 11:41:25 AM
Your email to ASTM may just cause them to create a standard, and then you won't be able to use bicycle helmets, Crasche bands, Ice Halo, Force Field Headband Rib Cap, eetc. Which will make other figure skaters unhappy.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I very much doubt that these standards are based on real world tests, using real people and real accidents.

So, do you think the law will pass, and will NJ start a trend?

----------------------------------

Should anyone want to fight the law, for any reason, try looking for statistics on how injury rates relate to helmet use. E.g.,

  http://www.nata.org/sites/default/files/HeadDownContactAndSpearingInTackleFB.pdf
  http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/01/09/concussion-epidemic-should-helmets-be-banned-from-football/
  http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/01/sports/on-slopes-rise-in-helmet-use-but-no-decline-in-brain-injuries.html?_r=0
  http://www.scarlettlawgroup.com/blogs/position-paper-asserts-helmets-mouth-guards-prevent-concussions-sports
 
William E. Prentice, Daniel D. Arnheim, Arnheim's Principles of Athletic Training, which used to be the primary text book for certified athletic trainers (I don't know if it still is), said (I don't have the exact quote handy) that stated that introducing helmets into a sport always dramatically increases injury rates (but typically reduces death rates), probably because people become more careless when they trust helmets to protect them.

If that turns out not to be the current main textbook, This study (http://www.nata.org/NR10302013) cited on the National Athletic Trainers' Association website, says somewhat the same thing, for concussions - but still recommends helmet use.

Quote
The committee found little evidence that current sports helmet designs reduce the risk of concussions.  It stressed that properly fitted helmets, face masks, and mouth guards should still be used, because they reduce the risk of other injuries -- such as skull fractures; bleeding inside the skull; and injuries to the eyes, face, and mouth.  The marketing for some protective devices designed for youth athletes, such as mouth guards and headbands for soccer, has advertised that these devices reduce concussion risk, but there is a lack of scientific evidence to support such claims, the committee said.

In the case of figure skating, I suspect helmets would increase how often people try admittedly non-standard moves like back flips, head bangers, etc., which risk banging your head on the ice.

There are also articles which indicate that to some extant, imperfectly fit helmets often cause injuries, though I haven't looked at the literature in detail. Realistically, most people won't bother to do the kind of modifications (especially, for group lessons, rentals, etc.) needed to make helmets fit well.

My personal belief is that if you know how to fall properly, a helmet increases injury rates during falls on the ice, because it gets in the way and reduces your range of motion, and on a backwards fall, tucking your head a little might no longer be sufficient to avoid contact with the ice - but I have no statistics to back that up, and many figure skaters don't practice deliberate falls much.

If we did want a well designed figure skating helmet, I suggest we would want a hard shell and a face mask to prevent sharp injuries from other people's skates skating into you, padded on the inside by closed cell foam (like carpet padding), to absorb impact, with good ways to adjust fit, and a reliable strap to hold it on securely.

But realistically, most figure skaters won't want to wear helmets for reasons unrelated to safety issues. For example, they may feel that your technique may be learned biased by the weight and moments of inertia of the helmet, which would make it harder to learn proper technique when not using helmets, and that it would therefore make American skaters less competitive.

In addition, they will say that helmets look "dorky".

I personally think gloves prevent more injuries than helmets.
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: skategeek on March 30, 2015, 12:24:41 PM
Here's a recent article about it:  http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/03/kids_would_have_to_wear_helmets_while_ice_skating.html

It notes specifically that there's no standard for ice skating, and links to the CPSC page listing helmet standards:

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Safety-Education/Safety-Guides/Sports-Fitness-and-Recreation/Bicycles/Which-Helmet-for-Which-Activity/

For skating, it says that wearing bicycle, skateboarding, or other listed helmets "may be preferable to wearing no helmet at all."  Or not...
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: Loops on March 30, 2015, 01:12:27 PM
I dunno.  I can't imagine falling on a bike helmet (on the ice).  I've seen kids faceplant too, but in group lessons never seen a fall resulting in an injury more serious than a cut. I think I fall in line with the representative who stated it was a solution in search of a problem.

But then again, I don't work in an ER, and I don't work at the rink.  I do see some of the kids (mostly hockey kids and the ice-freestylers, but not always just them) doing some whacked out things.  If they take someone out I can see that there is potential for a serious injury.  I don't know how often these things happen in reality though, and if those injuries are more often to the heads or limbs.  But falling on a bike helmet (because you know that's what most kids will wear) seems like it'd just cause more injuries.  My rink supplies helmets, but I don't let my kids touch them out of fear for headlice.  Some people do choose to wear them, most don't.  We don't have rink guards or anyone to police anything.

Sounds like our kind of people would be exempt though.  So we won't see helmets on freestyle sessions. 
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: Christy on March 30, 2015, 02:06:44 PM
Most of our local rinks require ALL skaters at public skating sessions to wear hockey or ski helmets (and actually say no bicycle helmets so can't see them allowing crasche, ribcap, forcefield or ice halo), and each season more make it a requirement. I'm not sure about LTS - the kids have to wear hockey helmets when they start and I think it's required until they pass a certain level, and they strongly advise hockey or ski helmets for adult learners too.
A couple of the rinks have helmets for hire for the kids but the expectation is that you'll provide your own.
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: jlspink22 on March 30, 2015, 02:44:50 PM
LTS in south jersey recommends or requires helmets for under 6, depending on the rink and always for hockey. I found my daughter more distracted by the helmet and less paying attention to her feet and surroundings when she first started. Now I don't fear her falling on her own as she has quite mastered falling, it's other people knocking her over. 

As an adult I'll take my own risks.

We have roller rinks here and they don't enforce helmets.
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: jlspink22 on March 30, 2015, 02:46:13 PM
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/12564082/virginia-tech-study-hockey-helmets-finds-many-unsafe

this is interesting...
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: riley876 on March 30, 2015, 03:48:02 PM
Quote
One helmet, CCM's V04, was classified as "not recommended" after testing showed that players who wore it could incur a predicted 9.3 concussions per season.

:o
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: riley876 on March 30, 2015, 04:16:54 PM
If we did want a well designed figure skating helmet, I suggest we would want a hard shell and a face mask to prevent sharp injuries from other people's skates skating into you, padded on the inside by closed cell foam (like carpet padding), to absorb impact, with good ways to adjust fit, and a reliable strap to hold it on securely.

The style is pretty irrelevant, but if they insist on standards with incredibly high impact protection (i.e. F1447 or Z90.4 or CPSC), then low speed impact protection will continue to be non-existent.   And I'd suspect 99% of ice skating (or skateboarding or roller derby) head hits are low speed hits.

If I was tasked with making a "figure skating helmet", and I didn't have to follow any insane impact standards (that are meant for vehicle speed impacts),  I'd simply take a standard skateboarding/roller derby style helmet, and simply make the foam 1/3 as dense.   

Never going to fly though.  I suspect most people would rather give up the sport than wear an obvious helmet.  Especially kids.

Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: AgnesNitt on March 30, 2015, 05:37:00 PM
My view:
http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2012/11/why-there-are-no-astm-figure-skating.html
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: ChristyRN on March 30, 2015, 08:44:54 PM
Now I don't fear her falling on her own as she has quite mastered falling, it's other people knocking her over. 

I thought I had mastered falling until I woke up in the neuro ICU with several days worth of amnesia. Four months later, I still don't know what happened, other than I was in my skates and on the ice.
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: jlspink22 on March 31, 2015, 09:07:02 AM

I thought I had mastered falling until I woke up in the neuro ICU with several days worth of amnesia. Four months later, I still don't know what happened, other than I was in my skates and on the ice.


Don't get me wrong there is always that risk! I mean you could break your neck in gymnastics, but it's a risk mitigated by proper technique and supervision. It's a risk you take or allow your child to take.

I think this is a case of another nanny law to protect ice tourists and beginners who lack common sense.

I hope it doesn't affect our ice shows that the club puts on for the parents.

Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: dlbritton on March 31, 2015, 03:55:26 PM
Going to try my Crasche tonight at LTS. The large is snug on me with all of the pads so I am going to use the 2 rear pads only. I wear glasses and the side pads press on the frames. The rear is what I am most concerned about anyway.
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: Neverdull44 on March 31, 2015, 06:28:39 PM
This is very poorly worded:

"A PERSON UNDER 18 YEARS OF AGE SHALL NOT BE REQUIRED TO WEAR A HELMET WHILE OPERATING ICE SKATES AS REQUIRED IN SUBSECTION B. OF THIS SECTION IF THE PERSON IS UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF A COACH AND IS PRACTICING FOR, OR
PARTICIPATING IN, AN ORGANIZED FIGURE SKATING COMPETITION"

When am I practicing with a coach's supervision?  In a private lesson, yes.  In a group lesson when the coach is watching someone else? When I am on the ice, but my persoanl coach is in a lesson with another skater?   What about when my coach isn't there, but there are the other coaches on the ice who I am not contracted with?  To meet this law, means I am going to have to be in a private lesson every single moment i am on the ice?

There is an "AND" part of this law.  Not only does my coach have to be there but I have to be  "practicing for or participating in an organized figure skating competition."     What about testing?  What if I am practicing for a figure skating test?  What if my religion does not permit me to ever compete (thinking of Jehovah's Witnesses who take classes and test, but do not compete.).  What is the state going to require to prove that I am getting ready for competition?  Is it my dream of skating at Nationals enough to prove it?  Or, do I need to be in that 30/60 day window where I have actually signed up for a competition?  What about the months were I am practicing and building my program, but not presently signed up for a committed competition?  On the flip side, am I less likely to fall if I am practicing for a competition?     To be honest, that's when I go into full mode with hard practices.  Where is the State's data to say that they have the right to protect me less if I am going to a competition?   it's counter-intuitive. 

What the law should read is to allow any child's parents or legal guardian to completely waive the helmet requirement at any and all times if they are in an organized figure skating program OR they periodically meet with a certified coach.

The difference is that motorcycles/bikes are operated on public roads, so the state has more of a "right" to regulate it.  But, figure skating is usually done on private property and by private citizens.  Since when does the state have a right to require helmets in non-state ice skating facilities?

********

Now, NJ is wanting to do this for "health and safety", and I see issues with beginners and freak skating falls.  But, at least the people are getting out there and exercising.   I can fall down while cleaning my shower.  Where's the helmet law for operating Tilex?   

And, where is the law for the parents who allow their kids to play video games 24/7, feed them fast/junk food all the time?   Inactivity and junk food are what's really killing America, nto figure skating.   Very few people have died as a cause of figure skating.  But, alot have died from a sedentary lifestyle.   So, let's regulate the figure skaters to wearing helmets but permissively allow the coach potato kids to flourish?  This law makes me mad!    It's another attempt at the nanny state where only the government knows best. 

Now, it will become another headache for rinks to try to implement.   People don't even lace up their skates correctly, but now the rink monitors are going to have to make sure everyone wears a helmet, it's properly attached, etc.  And, if the rink staff screws up, the rink is now extra liable because there is a law on the subject that sets the minimum standard of care.
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: Query on March 31, 2015, 06:37:19 PM
I thought I had mastered falling until I woke up in the neuro ICU with several days worth of amnesia. Four months later, I still don't know what happened, other than I was in my skates and on the ice.

I hope you are OK now!

Do you now wear a helmet when you skate? If so, would it have protected the part of your head that was injured?

Perhaps you'll never know whether you fell, or whether someone smashed into you hard enough to do you harm.

I've mentioned this here before, but many years ago I remember bicycling as fast as I could to catch up to a club ride. I woke up in a hospital post-surgery. (With many pieces of my ultra-light foam helmet on the bed stand next to me), remembering nothing else of what happened. I later learned that I was conscious enough after the accident to have had at least two conversations (one with the EMTs, one with the person in whose yard I left my bike), but remembered neither.

I recently told that to an anesthesiologist. She told me that anesthesiologists include chemicals that are designed to give you short term memory loss before surgery, so you won't remember the pain. She thought that was a somewhat more likely explanation for the memory loss than the concussion I presumably suffered.


Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: jlspink22 on March 31, 2015, 07:07:12 PM
FYI since I live in New Jersey I emailed the two reps whose names were attached to the amendment. Particularly asking them to clarify the practicing for or participating in "competition" part since most young skaters also participate in exhibition events. I said that as a parent of a figure skater, I am well aware of the risks of the sport and that they need to consider that when making a broad rule meant to mostly cover beginners and casual skaters (ie ice tourists).
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: jlspink22 on March 31, 2015, 07:11:08 PM
This is very poorly worded:

"A PERSON UNDER 18 YEARS OF AGE SHALL NOT BE REQUIRED TO WEAR A HELMET WHILE OPERATING ICE SKATES AS REQUIRED IN SUBSECTION B. OF THIS SECTION IF THE PERSON IS UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF A COACH AND IS PRACTICING FOR, OR
PARTICIPATING IN, AN ORGANIZED FIGURE SKATING COMPETITION"

When am I practicing with a coach's supervision?  In a private lesson, yes.  In a group lesson when the coach is watching someone else? When I am on the ice, but my persoanl coach is in a lesson with another skater?   What about when my coach isn't there, but there are the other coaches on the ice who I am not contracted with?  To meet this law, means I am going to have to be in a private lesson every single moment i am on the ice?

There is an "AND" part of this law.  Not only does my coach have to be there but I have to be  "practicing for or participating in an organized figure skating competition."     What about testing?  What if I am practicing for a figure skating test?  What if my religion does not permit me to ever compete (thinking of Jehovah's Witnesses who take classes and test, but do not compete.).  What is the state going to require to prove that I am getting ready for competition?  Is it my dream of skating at Nationals enough to prove it?  Or, do I need to be in that 30/60 day window where I have actually signed up for a competition?  What about the months were I am practicing and building my program, but not presently signed up for a committed competition?  On the flip side, am I less likely to fall if I am practicing for a competition?     To be honest, that's when I go into full mode with hard practices.  Where is the State's data to say that they have the right to protect me less if I am going to a competition?   it's counter-intuitive. 

What the law should read is to allow any child's parents or legal guardian to completely waive the helmet requirement at any and all times if they are in an organized figure skating program OR they periodically meet with a certified coach.


********

Now, NJ is wanting to do this for "health and safety", and I see issues with beginners and freak skating falls.  But, at least the people are getting out there and exercising.   I can fall down while cleaning my shower.  Where's the helmet law for operating Tilex?   

And, where is the law for the parents who allow their kids to play video games 24/7, feed them fast/junk food all the time?   Inactivity and junk food are what's really killing America, nto figure skating.   Very few people have died as a cause of figure skating.  But, alot have died from a sedentary lifestyle.   So, let's regulate the figure skaters to wearing helmets but permissively allow the coach potato kids to flourish?  This law makes me mad!    It's another attempt at the nanny state where only the government knows best. 

Now, it will become another headache for rinks to try to implement.   People don't even lace up their skates correctly, but now the rink monitors are going to have to make sure everyone wears a helmet, it's properly attached, etc.  And, if the rink staff screws up, the rink is now extra liable because there is a law on the subject that sets the minimum standard of care.

This is what happens when people need to justify their elected position with a law that they do not really know anything about. Again, they do not usually enforce helmets at the indoor roller rinks here. Can tell you that much. The cops have better things to do than police skating rinks.
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: AgnesNitt on March 31, 2015, 07:12:38 PM
1. For very little kids, head protection is a good idea.
2. For ice tourists on rental skates head protection is a good idea because, a. they don't know how to skate and b. rental skates are crap and can lead to accidents
3. For 11 - 18 year old boys, required helmets will make them skate harder and faster thus generating more accidents in the people they run into while the over enthusiatic "I'm protected jackass," gets off scot free.
4. Helmets on freestyle skaters can result in more accidents since they block off peripheral vision on crowded freestyles, and screw up the  skater's balance.
I know, I know, there's always someone who says "My child/my neighbor/I would have been spared pain/injury/whatever" If child/neighbor/I wore a helmet.
However:
Laws are supposed to be made to protect a population, not the individual. A helmet law can actually cause MORE injuries in the population, because they're UNANTICIPATED injuries that the lawmaker who though "Oh, must prevent injuries from a fall!" didn't think of. Blocking off peripheral vision can cause a crash resulting in TWO rather than ONE skater injury.

And for an instance of a poorly instituted helmet law, I give you girls lacrosse in Florida: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/31/sports/in-girls-lacrosse-a-move-in-the-name-of-safety-sparks-debate.html?_r=0
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: riley876 on March 31, 2015, 07:38:13 PM
Skate(board) style helmets DON'T restrict peripheral vision (e.g. http://www.amazon.com/ProTec-3APROCPS010XSR4-P-Protec-Classic-Helmet/dp/B0043E0T4Q ).   I know because I use one, and I use my peripheral vision extremely vigilantly.   I doubt hockey helmets (unless they have a cage or other face protection) would either, because the eyes sufficiently in front of the helmet sides.

And balance is a completely learned thing.   An hour or two MAXIMUM for any even slightly experienced skater would fix any issues.  I can't believe that we aren't all adaptable enough to cope with a minor change like a 400g helmet.   I've always skated with a helmet, but I have forgotten to wear it a couple of times, and I didn't even notice, until the airy breeze gave it away.   (Not that I'm doing anything too technical)

I get that figure skating people in general don't want to wear a helmet, for effectively fashion reasons.   And that's fine, I personally don't think anyone should be made to,  but these 2 things (peripheral vision and balance) are simply red herrings.
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: Neverdull44 on March 31, 2015, 07:52:51 PM
It's not the criminal law and the cops enforcing it that I am worried about.   (criminal is put in jail)  It's the civil law (suing for money & damages) that I see happening if rinks are not following these rules.  You see, when there is a law that mandates something for health and safety, then not having that law complied with causes the tortfeasor to be easily held liable for monetary damages.    The rinks are going to have to enforce it, because their attorney and liability insurance are going to require it.   Or, they are going to have to pay out millions of dollars when someone falls.

Again, this is private property with private citizens.  Imagine if the law was "Every patron in a grocery store must wear a helmet."   Well, there are alot of slip & falls in a grocery store!  Regulating private entities and private actors is crossing the line.

I would have a very hard time doing jumps & spins with a helmet.   My head weighs 10 pounds, and adding something to it that would move even just little independently from my head would screw up my timing and body weight distribution.   Helmets don't fit like gloves.   But, under NJ law I'd be able to not wear it when a coach is present and I'm signed up for an actual competition?  I'd be relearning every move.     I do wear Crasche head guards & butt pads & knee pads, especially when learning new footwork.   Crasche fits like a headband with no independent movement, and doesn't weigh anything so as to change my body's center of gravity.     And, wearing those things is my independent choice and I like it that way.

As a person who learned to skate in New Hampshire, "Live Free or Die."
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: jlspink22 on April 01, 2015, 06:53:19 AM
Every show and competition put on our club has a no liability clause for the rink and club. Hopefully that takes care of those.


And most skaters don't wear helmets after learning the basic skills....

I can't see how a helmet would not throw off a double axel or complicated spin. I mean when you are spinning at a high rev per minute if that helmet is slightly off or not tight enough ... Hmmm wonder what would happen. Anyone up for an experiment?
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: ChristyRN on April 01, 2015, 09:06:11 PM
I hope you are OK now!

Do you now wear a helmet when you skate? If so, would it have protected the part of your head that was injured?

Perhaps you'll never know whether you fell, or whether someone smashed into you hard enough to do you harm.



Mostly. I find I have to make lists at work so I'll remember all the supplies I'm asked to get (I'm and OR nurse) or I'll forget them.

I wear a Crasche band. I figured that was the best choice for me as I'm usually hot when I skate and I'd never keep the helmet on. As it is, I sweat under the band, but not too bad. No other issues unless I don't get my hair right and it pulls some of it.

I'd kind of like to know which move I was working on when I fell. My coach says the back crossover to back outside edge (bronze)has deteriorated the most since my fall, so maybe that was it. I'll never know since there were no witnesses.
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: amy1984 on April 02, 2015, 02:28:15 AM
I have seen very few head injuries in figure skating. Not saying they never happen.  But it's a risk you take in the sport.  You could fall on your head in gymnastics.  Be dropped by your dance partner in ballet.  Maybe these athletes should wear helmets too?  I, personally, have been hit not once, not twice, but three times in the face with a fastball as a kid (making it more risky for me than skating) and no one is writing laws about helmets while fielding in baseball.  There is risk in sport.  We cannot bubble wrap our kids.  We need to be reasonable.  Learning to skate?  Helmet.  For sure.  But higher up?  I don't think so.  In fact, I would argue that the lack of sight lines might cause more collisions on crowded ice.  Less chance of a head injury, but more people being knocked over.  And lord knows my jumps and spins would suffer with a helmet.  Bike helmets are actually banned where I skate because the back of them is unsafe for skating.  And I can't think of another helmet that wouldn't restrict my movement.

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: riley876 on April 03, 2015, 05:53:47 AM
Evan Lysacek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHZEUW5ujZQ
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: dlbritton on April 03, 2015, 10:00:27 PM
Wore my Crasche at practice the other day, but only had the 2 rear pads in. I have a large, they need extra large, which is too tight with the other pads and presses on my glasses. I am most worried about backward falls and figure I won't hit my forehead on the ice with a great deal of force if I fall forward, my hands or knees will probably hit first. I wear elbow and knee pads and wrist guards, so one more item isn't too extreme.

The Crasche was unobtrusive, but I did sweat in it a bit. I look a bit like Orville Redenbacher with my hair poking up with it on though.     
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: Query on April 04, 2015, 03:52:35 PM
1. For very little kids, head protection is a good idea...

I personally think that helmets and other padding, especially gloves, are a good idea for beginners of all ages, though our rink's experience with unreturned helmets does indicate potential economics issues. (OTOH, most of those that we lend out were accidentally left at the rink - our "lost and found" accumulates a surprisingly large amount of gear of all types, more than you would believe possible.

But most of the head injuries, especially the serious ones, that I have personally seen, have been on adults.

But it's very important to distinguish between personal guesses and anecdotal experience, even when they come from people with experience or medical expertise, and studies with more comprehensive statistical data. Guesses and anecdotal experience are very often very different from the statistics. Unfortunately, most of the "experts" who testify before legislative bodies don't worry about the statistics, so something like this bill could easily pass without a suitably careful examination of the data, producing unintended adverse consequences. Instead, the legislature will probably hear testimony from parents whose kids have been seriously injured, and doctors and EMTs who have treated the injured, but who haven't looked at the statistics. They only guess whether a helmet might have helped in those specific cases, and don't consider what other injuries helmets could cause, or how they will affect human behavior.

BTW, here (http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1013.html) is mention of other studies indicating that helmet use increases injuries - this time in cycling.

Most of us who have skated enough to see many injuries have noticed that most injuries are NOT head injuries. There are a lot more arm, shoulder, hip and back injuries. Some of the most serious and long lasting, for example, occur at the base of the spine, though those are pretty rare.

If legislatures pass laws such as the one under discussion, and don't see injury rates go down dramatically, they may instead try to outlaw figure skating altogether.

There are always attempts to outlaw almost all sports, because sports are intrinsically dangerous. People participate in sports in large part for precisely that reason - it is fun to take risks, and to push your abilities to handle them. Sometimes it is fun to learn how to deal with risk by using better technique, e.g., to learn how to control forces that seemed previously uncontrollable. If you have watched people do high class whitewater boating, climb difficult mountains, ride bikes down steep mountains, or ski on the edges of avalanches they create (you can find Youtube videos of all those - they look fun, if more than a little crazy, and I bet a lot of those of toyed with some of those things, or known and watched people who did), you know what I mean. Sometimes it is fun to skirt the edges of control, or even to lose control. I've never chosen to be drunk or high, but I imagine the feeling is But no matter what people do to regulate risk, human nature is such that we will continue to take risks, including physical risks.

If you outlaw one area of risky human activity, risky behavior just comes back in another.

And if you try to use something like helmets that make people feel more safe, but may be relatively ineffective or might actually do the opposite, that is even more dangerous.

I think I've said enough on this issue. I'm not going to convince those of you who believe that helmets are a great idea. Nor am I going to convince those of you who believe that you can reduce risky human behavior.
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: AgnesNitt on April 04, 2015, 04:41:14 PM
I just want to mention that the most falls are probably due to poorly maintained rental skates. Some rinks probably only sharpen once a year, if that. I've seen rental skates with torn eyelets, broken laces, and wobbly blades.

I figure if you are over the age of 18 and show up w/ your own skates, you should get a 'bye' from the mandatory helmet rule since you are considered experienced enough and with your own equipment to make a decision on your own.

My fear is as I've said above, if the hockey boys are required to wear helmets, they'll be even more dangerous.

Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: ChristyRN on April 04, 2015, 07:41:57 PM
Wore my Crasche at practice the other day, but only had the 2 rear pads in. I have a large, they need extra large, which is too tight with the other pads and presses on my glasses. I am most worried about backward falls and figure I won't hit my forehead on the ice with a great deal of force if I fall forward, my hands or knees will probably hit first. I wear elbow and knee pads and wrist guards, so one more item isn't too extreme.

The Crasche was unobtrusive, but I did sweat in it a bit. I look a bit like Orville Redenbacher with my hair poking up with it on though.   

Those are pretty much my only complaints: smushing my glasses over the ears and sweating. I can sew, so I'm going to look for wicking or absorbent fabric and make my own bands. I'll copy the holder I have and make more.
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: skategeek on April 04, 2015, 07:51:57 PM
I had the same problem with the Crasche pressing my glasses against my ears.  I'm also not convinced it would do much of anything to reduce concussion risk- there's just not enough padding.  The hard outer layer would help distribute the impact, though, so maybe?  At the moment I've switched over to the Ice Halo HD (higher density high impact foam, thinner than the regular Ice Halo).

Found out that a colleague of mine who's a recreational hockey player (and has a ~9 year old daughter who also plays) has been sending letters in support of the helmet law change.  He's a neurobiologist and very aware of TBI and other risks.  (He was very happy to see me wearing my Ice Halo.)  I told him about some of the issues that have been brought up here.  He had no idea there was no approved helmet for non-hockey skating. When we have a little more time I may sit down and educate him a bit more. I don't think he has any real knowledge of the nuances of figure skating that would make this law a very bad idea as written.
Title: Re: NJ Helmet Law
Post by: amy1984 on April 04, 2015, 10:29:57 PM
I don't think he has any real knowledge of the nuances of figure skating that would make this law a very bad idea as written.

And that's just it, isn't it?  How many people involved in this law DO know the nuances?  I think the 'bad/pro helmet' side is probably well repped - people who've been injured or see the sport as dangerous - but have they talked to the sport in general about how this law would affect them?  Have they even asked what would actually be helpful?

I'm not anti-helmet.  But I want those who need to wear them to be safe.  On a free skate session, I think the disadvantages (hearing, sight, movement) are many while the advantages (less head injuries) are fewer because these are not the people hurting their heads en mass and in my honest opinion, if you're still in the learn to skate stage where a helmet is useful, I don't think you should be on a session with people who are outskating you to the point that they're skating faster than you can get out of their way if you have to.  This isn't a personal slight on anybody.  I certainly watch carefully for low level skaters and I know most do, but I wouldn't call the situation 'safe'.  On busy free skate sessions, if you were to ask skaters what would make the session safer, I doubt helmets would be in the top 5.  I'd probably vote for a smaller amount of skaters allowed on the ice, followed by clear and concise rules (both on who qualifies and also on ice rules).  To be clear, I apply the 'skating level' thing to myself, too.  I wouldn't be comfortable on a high level session and I purposefully don't put myself in that situation.