A Simple Boot Holder for Maintenance

[tstop4me]

In your picture, the skate is right side up. I work with the skate upside down, so the tool rests on the ccountersunk area of the hole in the mounting plate.

All I know is that I don't tilt my tool. I could push it out of tilt if I wanted to. But if I don't, it rests vertically on that countersunk area.

I showed the bottom view in PIX 3 because it shows the consequences of a tilt, which would not be visible from a top view (PIX 2).  If you flip PIX 3 upside down, nothing changes.


But in use, your tool doesn't rest freely, correct?  You hold it in your hand, and push down, correct?  I can say the same thing about a flat-head screw sitting in a countersunk hole.  If the screw is sitting freely, the head will align with the hole.  But once I need to install the screw, that's a different story.

Do you have in mind a specific brand and model of tool that would work well?

<<Emphasis added.>>  That's what I was trying to find out from you.  The two you linked to definitely won't work, for the reasons I gave.

[Query]

But in use, your tool doesn't rest freely, correct?  You hold it in your hand, and push down, correct?  I can say the same thing about a flat-head screw sitting in a countersunk hole.  If the screw is sitting freely, the head will align with the hole.  But once I need to install the screw, that's a different story.

<<Emphasis added.>>  That's what I was trying to find out from you.  The two you linked to definitely won't work, for the reasons I gave.

I hold it in my hand. But I don't choose to use a sideways force to make it slant.

Once I get done moving, I will try to find it again. But it is possible that Stanley (if I remember that right) is not up to your standards. My standards are may be much lower - when I do stuff entirely by hand and eye, I've sometimes made obviously slanted or off-center holes, that push the mount to the side when the countersink head tries to mesh with the countersunk hole.

Stainley seems to be popular with carpenters who build houses and such, but wood is often softer than the metal used in blade mounting plates. Maybe a higher end brand would center more accurately?

Anyway it sounds to me like the tools Bill referenced work reasonably well for him. I love the idea of the centering drills. I need a drill guide, a rather awkward tool, once I have made the mark in order to drill my pilot hole at right angles to the surface. And I have to carefully center the drill on the mark. It looks like centering drills would save time, and appear perfectly designed for exactly this purpose. I think you want a reasonably light weight hand held drill (or Dremel type tool) so it will align properly on the bevel - he only made a drill press work by using a level, which per-supposes that the bottom of the mounting plate is at right angles to the countersink, which I don't trust.

(BTW - why would a blade manufacturer not use countersink drill bits, that drill the countersunk bevel at the same time as the hole, and should make them perfectly aligned together? Unless... Could they be cutting the holes with a laser or equivalent, and then adding the countersunk bevel in a separate step? Does that make sense? I don't understand enough about manufacturing to know why the entire mounting plate wouldn't be molded rather than individually machined. And if they molded it, they could maybe take the time to do a nearly perfect job on the mold?)

The retractable sleeve in Bill's tools sounds like a great way to do it, for mounting plates of varying thickness. I'm starting to wonder if I remember wrong, and mine has something like that too.

Bill is clearly a trained engineer who has high standards for his tools, and like you, is willing to pay what such tools cost. I on the other hand, try to save money, while trying to do somewhat better than the average pro shop skate tech does - which I think you know, is not a very high standard. His advice is more likely to make you happy.

[tstop4me]

Bill is clearly a trained engineer who has high standards for his tools, and like you, is willing to pay what such tools cost. I on the other hand, try to save money, while trying to do somewhat better than the average pro shop skate tech does - which I think you know, is not a very high standard. His advice is more likely to make you happy.

There's no need to pursue this any further. We're going in circles.  It's just that Bill confirmed that the tool he described does require manual alignment to get precise results; whereas, you initially claimed that your tool automatically maintained alignment.  So I was wondering what tool you had (I did a search and couldn't find one that did).  But, after I asked for more details, you appear to have subsequently backed off from your initial claim.  To me, "It could tilt, but I hold it so it doesn't tilt" signals manual, not automatic, alignment.

[marc]

I learned to sharpen, therefore, thanks to some of you and I manage it as well, even better than the previous sharpener far from home. and I'm super happy.
At first, I didn't understand, why I couldn't do it... and very often it came from blades really badly put (as said in a previous message) and not straight, so now before sharpening I examine well the blades.
Then while watching a video, I came across a sharpener who put the skates on a table, and the skates stood up on their own. So, I'm looking at that too now, like in the photo I took, but the other foot falls off (although of course it's sharp).
So I'm going to take inspiration from this forum to make myself a skate holder and my questions:
does the skate have to balance itself?
When you attach the blades and there is a gap (between blade and skate) do you put resin (like pbh) or put leather wedges as I have heard from former skaters from my club?
I like the idea of ​​putting only domed screws with washers (stainless steel, of course), rather than conical, can we do this on all the screws, or is it not recommended?


j'ai appris à affuter , donc, grâce à certains d'entre vous et j'y arrive aussi bien, voire mieux que les affuteur précédent loin de chez moi. et je suis super content.
Au début, je ne comprenait pas, pourquoi je n'y arrivait pas... et très souvent cela venait des lames vraiment mal mise(comme dit dans un précedent message) et pas droite, alors maintenant avant d'affuter j'examine bien les lames.
Puis en regardant une vidéo, je  suis tombé sur un affuteur qui posait les patins sur une table, et les patins tenaient debout tout seul. Alors, je regarde çà aussi maintenant, comme sur la photo que j'ai pris, mais l'autre pied tombe ( alors qu'il est bien entendu bien affuté).
Je vais donc m'inspiré de ce forum pour me faire un porte patin et mes questions:
faut il que le patin tienne seul en équilibre?
Quand vous fixez les lames et qu'il y a un creux (entre lame et patin) est ce que vous mettez de la résine( comme pbh) ou mettez des cales en cuir comme j'ai pu l'entendre par des anciens patineurs de mon club?
J'aime bien l'idée de mettre que des vis à tête bombée avec des rondelles(inox, biensur), plutôt que conique , peut on faire cela sur toutes les vis , ou c'est déconseillé?

[marc]

oops here is the picture

[tstop4me]

oops here is the picture

That's an interesting photo.  But being able to or not being able to balance a skate on its edges tells you nothing about the quality of the sharpening or the quality of the mounting.   

[Bill_S]

I agree that balancing the boot and blade on the table doesn't tell the whole picture. The usual way is for a skater to actually skate in a temporary blade mounting, and the fitter should examine the ice tracings and the way the skater performs, plus listen to their comments. Then adjustments are made to the lateral blade position, and tried again. Once the skate is feeling good for the skater on the ice, then insert the permanent screws into their holes to prevent lateral shifting.

Because feet are different, balancing a boot by the blade tells you nothing about the requirements of each individual skater. Search for pictures of "pronate vs. supinate" to see how feet differ.

Here's a detail about making your own boot holder that I don't remember mentioning. The sides of the "foot" need to be chamfered (beveled), especially on the narrow part that will contact padding inside for the arch of the foot. I used a spindle sander, but these inexpensive sanding wheels for hand drills will chamfer the wood quickly.

You don't want sharp edges on the wooden "foot" or the boot will wobble more. The padding inside the boot is curved, and while you can't perfectly match that, you can still get better results with a chamfered edge.

[supersharp]

I agree, the skate being able to balance itself is a coincidence, not something we aspire to have happen. We are more concerned about having the skater balance comfortably in the skate.

I have been planning to make a holder with two slots for when I am polishing boots or oiling the soles. Ideally, it will fold down from the wall while in use and then fold up out of the way when I'm done, since my workbench is small and I often want to do some touch-up work on the finish while I'm working on other tasks. 

To answer a couple of Marc's mounting questions:
A leather shim or epoxy filler work equally well if they fill the gap between the boot and sole plate. Each has its advantages and disadvantages. I've used both and expect that I will continue to do so since every situation is a little different.  If I were going to use a leather shim, it would probably be on a leather sole, but I also sometimes use epoxy filler on leather soles.  The biggest challenge can be finding something the correct thickness, particularly if you want to test the shim to see if the skater likes it (meaning it needs to be easy to remove) and especially if there isn't enough time for epoxy to cure.

I have never seen any problems when mounting with pan head screws and washers only (no conical screws) but no one that skates here does anything beyond double jumps. If I were mounting for triples or quads, I would probably want to use at least one conical screw in the toe plate and one in the heel plate for stability.

[Bill_S]

I have been planning to make a holder with two slots for when I am polishing boots or oiling the soles. Ideally, it will fold down from the wall while in use and then fold up out of the way when I'm done, since my workbench is small and I often want to do some touch-up work on the finish while I'm working on other tasks. 

Please post your progress as you undertake this. It sounds like a more ambitious project than the skate holder that I built for hand-sharpening. Mine serves also to hold the boot upright for lacing and polishing. Here's the link to the thread about that particular project...

http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8371.0

Tstop one of a different design for working on his own skates...

http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8365.0

[tstop4me]

I agree that balancing the boot and blade on the table doesn't tell the whole picture. The usual way is for a skater to actually skate in a temporary blade mounting, and the fitter should examine the ice tracings and the way the skater performs, plus listen to their comments. Then adjustments are made to the lateral blade position, and tried again. Once the skate is feeling good for the skater on the ice, then insert the permanent screws into their holes to prevent lateral shifting.

Because feet are different, balancing a boot by the blade tells you nothing about the requirements of each individual skater. Search for pictures of "pronate vs. supinate" to see how feet differ.

Marc:  I'd just like to add to Bill's explanation.  Even for a neutral foot (no pronation, no supination), you shouldn't expect a skate (boot plus blade) to balance on the edges of the blade.  Look at the bottom of the skate.  You will note that the boot itself, and in many cases, the sole plate of the blade, does not have left-right (inside-outside) symmetry with respect to the longitudinal axis of the blade. 

[supersharp]

Thanks, Bill and tstop4me, for the great ideas.

Since a lot of skates pass through my hands and I often am trying to do several things at once, I am looking for something that could hold two skates or one while they dry. At this state in conceptual design, it doesn't need to clamp tight because I generally hold the skate either by the boot or blade dying application of a finish, depending on whether I'm applying polish or a sole treatment. 

I also need it to be set up somewhere that is not in my way when I'm sharpening.  The best location I can think of at this point would partially block my pathway to the storage area behind some of my equipment shelving...so I want it to fold up out of the way. This pathway is sized to allow my 55-gallon drum (poly, not steel) oil-water separator to be dragged back into the storage area since it is used infrequently but is something I need to keep on hand for use on work projects.  Design height for the folded unit needs to be above the top of the drum.

What might be even more favorable would be to grow an extra set or two of arms like an alien. Then I could hold more things and take photos better.  My guess is it will be easier to build a skate holder, though, so I will have to settle for that. I'm going to look at boat-table designs a bit to review fold-down design ideas. But given that my shop has unpainted Sheetrock walls, something that looks like it came off a yacht might look a little out of place.

[Query]

I just realized something.

Some (most?) hand-held drills have a beveled chuck, especially when holding thin drill bits, such as are used for pilot holes. Are there any drills where the bevel slant is right to fit into a countersink, so you don't need a center punch or center drill?

Obviously, you would initially need to adjust the amount of the drill bit that sticks out of the chuck so that it just barely touches the sole, to get the position right, and drill just to create a mark. Then you could let a little more of the bit out of the chuck, drill again to get the alignment right. Then let enough out again, to the depth of the hole required, and drill again to finish the pilot hole.

This would only work if the drill were thin enough not to get in the way of the blade when the chuck touches the countersink. Mine isn't, but maybe some are.

[Bill_S]

None of mine have a suitable beveled chuck jaws for the purposes you describe. I'm seeing a trend to a reverse bevel so that the user can find the chuck opening easier when changing bits.

[Kaitsu]

Query, it seems you have never mounted blades by your selves. When you can find any drilling machine which chuck is enough small and long, let us know.

[tstop4me]

I just realized something.

Some (most?) hand-held drills have a beveled chuck, especially when holding thin drill bits, such as are used for pilot holes. Are there any drills where the bevel slant is right to fit into a countersink, so you don't need a center punch or center drill?

Obviously, you would initially need to adjust the amount of the drill bit that sticks out of the chuck so that it just barely touches the sole, to get the position right, and drill just to create a mark. Then you could let a little more of the bit out of the chuck, drill again to get the alignment right. Then let enough out again, to the depth of the hole required, and drill again to finish the pilot hole.

This would only work if the drill were thin enough not to get in the way of the blade when the chuck touches the countersink. Mine isn't, but maybe some are.

Refer back to the above posts on self-centering punches and drills.  You will note that they are outfitted with a retractable sleeve that mates to the countersink bevel of the screw hole on the mounting plate before the tool is put into operation (strike the punch or drill the hole).  This retractable sleeve provides the self-centering function (within limits as Bill and I discussed).  As I wrote, the center punches you cited without retractable sleeves are not self-centering at all.

In addition to what Bill and Kaitsu wrote, merely for the sake of argument, even if you had a drill chuck of a suitable geometry, in your scenario there is no retractable sleeve.   The drill bit would necessarily contact the sole or heel of the boot before the chuck mates to the countersink bevel; hence, the initial centering of the drill bit is done purely by eye-and-hand (just as in the case of center punches and drill bits without a retractable sleeve).

Also, drill bits are generally considered consumable items; whereas, drill chucks are not.  I for one would not like to have my drill chuck repeatedly grinding against a metal (particularly steel) mounting plate.

[Query]

I haven't tried any of these tools. I have always placed the blade on the boot, marked the position, removed the blade, and then drilled it. (I've also tried using very thin diameter self-tapping screws instead of drilling a pilot hole - but I'm not good enough at keeping them at right angles to do a good job, and am not certain that even would work very well if I could.)

Or I did it by eye, using a hand-powered drill. But that isn't what I want - I can more or less judge by eye the center of the hole, but it is much harder to judge the center of the countersink bevel by eye. (Perhaps a "push drill" would be usable with more accuracy than the crank powered drills I own.) I've never had an electric drill with a thin enough chuck. I have a Dremel tool with a thin enough chuck, but the tool handle still gets in the way. Besides the Dremel can only drive very thin drill bits, so one might have to make a pilot hole to center a bigger pilot hole, which I'm not sure would be accurate enough.

I've bought tools a number of times that I thought would do things that I wanted to do, and didn't. So I'm reluctant to buy any of these, especially if they are in packages, or I have to order them by mail or over the Internet. so I can't test the retractability, and how much of the drill bit is exposed,

SO: If you could give me the exact brand and model # of a retractable sleeve center adapter, that meets all of the following:
  It can take large enough drill bits to do the job.
  It can hold the bit with a small enough length of exposed drill bit that it won't drill too deep, but can be adjusted to the desired screw depth.
  It has a strong enough spring on the retractable sleeve to force the drill to stay at right angles.
  It is thin enough not to get in the way of the blade..
  It has a round shaft that will fit most drills.
  It is sturdy enough to do the job.
  It isn't outrageously expensive.
then I might buy it - though even then there might not work because I haven't thought of something that is needed. Otherwise, I'm reluctant to keep buying things that don't quite work.

I went to a Home Depot to look for "center drills". There were several. They were in packages, except for one. It didn't have a retractable sleeve - so I guess you would need to do as I suggested - drill in many stages, with different lengths of the bit protruding, the first of which would barely touch the surface, and, that wouldn't be as neat, or as accurate. I couldn't tell if the ones that were in packages, that looked somewhat like

  https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bosch-1-4-in-Steel-Clic-Change-Self-Centering-Drill-Bit-Set-3-Piece-CC2430/205391771

have retractable sleeves.

(That one only has very thin drill bits too. And it has a "quick change" shaft, not the round shaft my drills are designed to drive, so I would need another adapter - which itself might need to be thin enough.)

And even if they did have a retractable sleeve, I don't know if the spring tension would be strong enough to force the drill to stay at right angles to the surface.


As far as thin drills with thin beveled chucks, there are drills like that deigned for hobby or medical use, but I don't know if they have enough power, or are sturdy enough, and which do not have retractable sleeves, e.g.,

https://nueby.com/product/mini-electric-drill

https://www.amazon.com/bnionlkm-Magnetic-20degree-Pivoting-Accessing/dp/B09JZFNC19

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165024106027

https://www.ramotrading.com/products/foredom-flexade-34-long-flexible-shaft?variant=39701253816402

https://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-Adaptor-Stubby-12-Inch-DWAMRASETFT/dp/B08K9C5MCD

There are lots of hand hobby or surgical tools that MIGHT sort of work, but with the same limitations, e.g.,

https://www.amazon.com/Vise-Hand-Drill-Jewelry-Making/dp/B098CF3VMM (not electric)

https://www.micromark.com/Premier-Elite-Moore-Surgical-Hand-Drill

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[Isk8NYC]

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[marc]

HELLO FOOLS OF ICE SKATING SHARPENS.
our skating rink is still closed for 1 more year because it is old (30 years) and the city is going to redo it all brand new and we will be gone for another 30 years.
I'm still sharpening a little bit and I've been wanting to make a shoe rack for a very long time.
and I wanted to show it to you.
I got the stainless steel part and did the rest.
good to you all

[marc]

I'll get there, here's the photo!

[Kaitsu]

Hello Marc and welcome back to forum!

Sometimes I really feel like a fool when I am doing skate technician tasks, especially when i'm mounting blades. However, I assume you had a small typo. Either way, at least I had fun.

Your blade mounting stand helps remarkably blade mounting and I can highly recommend this kind of stand for all whom mount blades to the figure skates. It gives you couple "extra hands" which are very welcome. If you are mounting blades to the Edea boots and there is cap between the boot and blade, heat the boot before adding permanent screws. It makes plastic soles softer and you can use screws to force boot against the blade without leaving remarkable stresses to the blade.

[Bill_S]

Nice job, Marc.

You'll be thankful for such a handy device when mounting blades.