PIC Skates Anyone?

[TheAquarian]

Does anyone here have experience using picsates?  I ordered my first frameset (the 4 wheel professional version) with Jackson Elite boots,   and I am eager to use them.   I'm kinda curious to know where people typically use them to practice, and  what the major differences are that you've noticed between the pic skates and ice.

Thanks!

[sarahspins]

I have a pair of frames... but they aren't on boots right now.

I didn't really take well to skating on them... It feels really weird to me.  Some of it was similar but enough was dramatically different... plus I didn't really have a good place to use them. 

Major difference is road rash when you fall - get some body protection

[MimiG]

I have a set of them from when they first came out (I think they say patent pending on them...) and mostly just use them as roller blades now, since I don't really have anywhere to practice on them. When I first got them, I was close to a park with a nice rarely-used basketball court and I'd practice on them there - mostly turns and edges, occasional spins, bits of dance and footwork patterns - I liked them, but as sarahspins says, it's definitely a different feel and you definitely want to protect yourself. Road rash is nobody's friend.

[Bill_S]

When we have no ice (i.e., now), I skate on PICs weekly at a roller rink. I prefer the smooth floor to the unexpected surfaces/objects found outdoors.

They ARE different from ice skates. Friction is higher for one. It's also very difficult to do hockey or dance stops because the edges don't slide - they stick.

Still, I can do about 75% of the things that I can do on ice. I do three-turns, brackets (well, some of them), jumps and spins on them.

I've got a couple small video clips on the web showing some PIC skate moves (spin and double-threes) at the top of this page:

http://www.afterness.com/skating/movies_and_pictures.html

There are two things that stick in my mind about PIC skates 1) the friction is higher, so I must work harder. To do that, I instinctively go down deeper in my knees. When I get back onto the ice, I can use that practice and new-found muscle to significantly improve power and speed.

2) Three turns, brackets, and spins are all considerably more difficult to do on PIC skates. Practice them anyway, because if you can do them on wheels, they become easy on ice.

A nearby rink has an adult-only skate session once a week. I've become good friends with the regulars and look forward to a change from toddlers and teenagers generally found on ice freestyle sessions. The friendships developed are now as important to me as getting to practice.

You'll also find that indoor rinks greatly extend wheel and toe stop life. Back when I started on PICs, I wore out a new pair of wheels in only one long outdoor trip on a bike path. The "inside edges" were ground away from stroking. There are harder wheels designed for outdoor skating, but they slide more. I found the indoor rink better suited for what I wanted.

[TheAquarian]

When we have no ice (i.e., now), I skate on PICs weekly at a roller rink. I prefer the smooth floor to the unexpected surfaces/objects found outdoors.

They ARE different from ice skates. Friction is higher for one. It's also very difficult to do hockey or dance stops because the edges don't slide - they stick.

Still, I can do about 75% of the things that I can do on ice. I do three-turns, brackets (well, some of them), jumps and spins on them.

I've got a couple small video clips on the web showing some PIC skate moves (spin and double-threes) at the top of this page:

http://www.afterness.com/skating/movies_and_pictures.html

There are two things that stick in my mind about PIC skates 1) the friction is higher, so I must work harder. To do that, I instinctively go down deeper in my knees. When I get back onto the ice, I can use that practice and new-found muscle to significantly improve power and speed.

2) Three turns, brackets, and spins are all considerably more difficult to do on PIC skates. Practice them anyway, because if you can do them on wheels, they become easy on ice.

A nearby rink has an adult-only skate session once a week. I've become good friends with the regulars and look forward to a change from toddlers and teenagers generally found on ice freestyle sessions. The friendships developed are now as important to me as getting to practice.

You'll also find that indoor rinks greatly extend wheel and toe stop life. Back when I started on PICs, I wore out a new pair of wheels in only one long outdoor trip on a bike path. The "inside edges" were ground away from stroking. There are harder wheels designed for outdoor skating, but they slide more. I found the indoor rink better suited for what I wanted.

Thanks for the info!   This makes me wonder if I should order more wheels than I already have before I go overseas.    I'm kind of new to inline skates,  do I always need to order the same brand wheels (the ones that came with the frame) or can I swap them with other brands?   I assume I can...   if so , what should I look for/avoid when replacing them?

[Bill_S]

Yes, you can swap wheel brands. My favorite wheels were Labeda Gripper Lites, but I can't seem to find them anymore. I switched back to the original wheels mostly because of cost. They are reasonable wheels.

You'll wear out bearings too, and again the original supplier has a good price on those. I like to replace bearing sets and wheels once per year if I skate 2 hr./week on a smooth floor. I'm probably heavier than you, and that will shorten wheel life.

Wheels come in different rubber formulas, with harder wheels lasting longer on abrasive outdoor surfaces. I like softer wheels like the Axel 6.0 for the smooth, painted wooden floor that I use. The Labedas were slightly softer and gripped a little better. Hard wheels used indoors will slip too much. Look for the word "durometer" to describe the rubber hardness. I have forgotten the durometer ranges for indoor vs outdoor, but a web search should find those results easily enough. Higher numbers mean harder rubber.

Don't forget to pay attention to the wheel diameter when ordering wheels from other sources. I've used some slightly smaller wheels (i.e. a couple mm), and they worked well for me. Be careful trying larger wheels though -  the wheels may touch each other, or just not fit in the space.

I've even used slightly smaller wheels at the ends, with the larger wheels in the middle. This increases the skate's rocker, making turns quicker. PICs are already rockered to begin with (in the frame), so start there before experimenting further.

Get some extra toe stops if you plan to skate outdoors. They wear down VERY quickly on pavement.

[TheAquarian]

Yes, you can swap wheel brands. My favorite wheels were Labeda Gripper Lites, but I can't seem to find them anymore. I switched back to the original wheels mostly because of cost. They are reasonable wheels.

You'll wear out bearings too, and again the original supplier has a good price on those. I like to replace bearing sets and wheels once per year if I skate 2 hr./week on a smooth floor. I'm probably heavier than you, and that will shorten wheel life.

Wheels come in different rubber formulas, with harder wheels lasting longer on abrasive outdoor surfaces. I like softer wheels like the Axel 6.0 for the smooth, painted wooden floor that I use. The Labedas were slightly softer and gripped a little better. Hard wheels used indoors will slip too much. Look for the word "durometer" to describe the rubber hardness. I have forgotten the durometer ranges for indoor vs outdoor, but a web search should find those results easily enough. Higher numbers mean harder rubber.

Don't forget to pay attention to the wheel diameter when ordering wheels from other sources. I've used some slightly smaller wheels (i.e. a couple mm), and they worked well for me. Be careful trying larger wheels though -  the wheels may touch each other, or just not fit in the space.

I've even used slightly smaller wheels at the ends, with the larger wheels in the middle. This increases the skate's rocker, making turns quicker. PICs are already rockered to begin with (in the frame), so start there before experimenting further.

Get some extra toe stops if you plan to skate outdoors. They wear down VERY quickly on pavement.

All good info!  I appreciate your sharing your experience.

So far I've ordered extra pics, a full set of extra wheels (the spinner wheels from the professional blades), and non-stock extra bearings (https://www.discountskatewear.com/p-1428-qube-juice.aspx), and of course the boots, frameset, and stock things that will come with it. I suspect that I will be skating outside most of the time simply due to not having a whole lot of indoor options.  That said, i'm not yet sure what kind of outdoor surfaces I will be able to find regular access to.   Ideally I'd like to use an empty basketball or tennis court, but they tend to be kind of busy in my area during the summer.

What are the wheel measurements that I should look for when I order non-stock wheels?    I am about 5'9 and 205 lbs right now (although I am losing weight),  so I'm definitely not a feather.

[Bill_S]

I'd use 68mm to 70mm diameter wheels. However I've used up to 72mm diameter wheels myself, but I'm not sure of the wheel spacing variations between different PIC frame lengths. If you have a short frame, and they change the mounting holes to accomodate that, the wheels may touch. I don't know about your frames, but 72mm fit in mine.

Most of the inline skate wheels use the same bearings as your stock wheels, but I'm not sure of the actual bearing diameter. You'll have to check on that. Still, most of the wheels I've seen use a standard bearing size. I believe that speed-skaters use larger wheels that take larger bearings, but they won't fit your frames. They're rare anyway.

I use an 80A durometer for indoor skating, but it will wear fast outdoors. Try something harder for rough pavement like 85A or so. The inside edges will wear quickest, and you get more mileage from them by turning them around occasionally - essentially rotating them just like car tires. The middle two wheels take most of the wear, although I've had wheel problems on the ends too. Forward three turns twist the front wheel and can fatigue the rubber over time, then it chunks...



The wheels pictured above were some Hyper wheels sold by my local rink, and I never liked them much.

[TheAquarian]

This is the frameset I ordered: 


http://picskate.com/products.htm#Professional994

I was not especially attracted to the three wheel frame set.    Is this the same that you are using?

I skate a lot, and now I'm starting to worry about how many extra wheels I'll need.

[Bill_S]

That's the one. You'll find that it's a bit longer than the skate blades that you are used to. The end of the last wheel sticks past where skate blades usually end. Be careful when doing tight footwork!

Be careful of falls. They are worse in the roller rink than on ice, but outdoors will trump that. Falling on pavement can remove a lot of skin. Pad up while learning the quirks of inline skating.

[TheAquarian]

Your comments on wheels made me worried so I am ordering a few extra sets  of different brands to make sure I am covered.   You mentioned that going up to 72 MM was OK,  what about going as low as 64mm?     I read on a different web site that 'artistic skaters' generally want smaller wheels.  How small would you say is too small?   For the moment I am erring towards harder wheels (nothing under 90a) knowing that I will be outside more often, but it's difficult for me to say which I will like the best without actually using them first.

[Skate@Delaware]

oh wow, I had PIC skates a long time ago...they were cool, but I wasn't very good at skating back then. Bill has very good advice!! Def want to pad up.

[Bill_S]

Your comments on wheels made me worried so I am ordering a few extra sets  of different brands to make sure I am covered.   You mentioned that going up to 72 MM was OK,  what about going as low as 64mm?     I read on a different web site that 'artistic skaters' generally want smaller wheels.  How small would you say is too small?   For the moment I am erring towards harder wheels (nothing under 90a) knowing that I will be outside more often, but it's difficult for me to say which I will like the best without actually using them first.

 I haven't tried anything much smaller than 68mm, so I can't offer an opinion there. I don't foresee anything especially troubling though.

Skate@Delaware - do you still have your PIC skates?

[TheAquarian]

I am still waiting for both my skates and wheels to arrive. 

When they come I'm going to compare and contrast the following setups until I find something that works well for me:
FYI the Spinner wheels that come with the frameset are  80A.

(All 63MM wheels)
90A | 95A | 95A | 90A
 
95A | 95A | 95A | 95A

(all 68mm wheels)
80A | 92A| 92A | 80A

80A | 92A| 80A | 80A

80A | 80A | 80A | 80A

92A | 92A | 92A | 92A

[Sk8Dreams]

As others have said, skating outdoors can really hurt when you fall.  If you plan to skate outdoors at all, get yourself a helmet and a complete set of pads used for roller blading.  Also, wear protective clothing, such as strong denim jeans and jacket.  Younger DD has a permanent scar on her shoulder from skating in the driveway in a T shirt.

[sk8lady]

I recently bought a pair of quad roller skates (Riedells) and find that falling in the rink has a little more oomph than falling on ice--the fall isn't spread out as much. However, it's nothing compared to the falls I've taken on pavement in my rollerblades!
Don't ever try to stop by sitting down if you're going fast on pavement. Duh and ouch!!!!! 

[TheAquarian]

As promised here is my update after trying quite a few different wheel configurations.  I will just list the ones that worked best and worst.

Best All-Around:

All 68mm eliptical Wheels - 90a, 90a, 82a, 82a

Best For Three-Turns:

Front Wheel:  63mm, flat, 95a

2nd-3rd Wheels :  68mm, eliptical, 90a

4th wheel :  68mm, 82a, eliptical

Main Problem:  the rocker feels slightly too big... 

Worst Config:  all 63mm flat 95a wheels

Problem:   almost impossible to get "edges"

[Bill_S]

Interesting findings!

I assume that you settled on using the "Best All-Around" combination for most of your skating.

I noticed that the harder wheels are not mentioned much, except for the front wheel for 3-turns, and the "Worst" configuration.  Did you try back threes and have the same conclusion?

Actually, I'm surprised that you managed to do three-turns on PICs so quickly. You must be able to do them very well on ice. I recall that I was learning threes about the same time I was learning to skate on PICs, and it took a while.

[TheAquarian]

Interesting findings!

I assume that you settled on using the "Best All-Around" combination for most of your skating.

I noticed that the harder wheels are not mentioned much, except for the front wheel for 3-turns, and the "Worst" configuration.  Did you try back threes and have the same conclusion?

Actually, I'm surprised that you managed to do three-turns on PICs so quickly. You must be able to do them very well on ice. I recall that I was learning threes about the same time I was learning to skate on PICs, and it took a while.

Well.. just because I was able to do them on PICs doesn't mean that I was able to do them well. My skill with off ice 3-turns is about like my first week of on-ice three turns, and I've been doing them for a couple months.

It's a little difficult for me to draw an absolute conclusion on hardness because my hardest wheels are also the flat ones.   I can't say for sure if the three turns are easiest because of the flat wheel or the hardness.   After talking to some aggressive inline skaters,  I've been told that harder wheels will be "slipperier" and will likely turn on the pavement with greater ease.    That said, I can also see why having a flatter surface to turn on would give a sense of more stability while turning...   

I plan to order several 58mm wheels (8x elliptical, 4x flat)  to experiment and draw more certain conclusions.  I already know that I don't like the feeling of ALL flat wheels.   I can't say that I have any complaints about smaller wheel sizes so far,  only a much smaller wheel in the toe than the other wheels.  It would probably be fine on a standard frame, but the PICskates already have a built in rocker so it was too much.

As a side note, how do you initiate two foot spins on PICskates?   I found that it was really hard for me to do the same way that I do on the ice, but I was able to (kind of) do it by tilting on my front wheel with the rubber 'pick' slightly touching the ground.   Even with this cheating, the most i've managed is about 2.5 rotations which is a far cry from what I'm able to manage on the ice.

[Bill_S]

As a side note, how do you initiate two foot spins on PICskates?   I found that it was really hard for me to do the same way that I do on the ice, but I was able to (kind of) do it by tilting on my front wheel with the rubber 'pick' slightly touching the ground.   Even with this cheating, the most I've managed is about 2.5 rotations which is a far cry from what I'm able to manage on the ice.

I never gave two foot spins much attention (ice or PICs). I usually do one foot spins if I try spinning. For CCW one-foot spins, my best entrance is a RFI three  - keeping the free leg in front after the three - then stepping onto the left foot with lots of knee bend. After the LFO three to initiate the spin, I press into the toe more than I do on ice. In the beginning, it was a deliberate shift forward compared to what I was used to on ice. If I didn't, the wheels would catch, and get an adrenalin rush.

Friction during the spin depletes speed quickly compared to ice. If you get three revs, your good. Four, you're great.

If you're doing 2.5 revs already, that's super! Be aware though that you'll never match what you can do on ice spin-wise. It's a different ballgame.

Occasionally the technique is a little different between ice and wheels. Like knowing how not to mix words between two languages, you will soon "know" what's better for wheels compared to ice.

[fsk8r]

Occasionally the technique is a little different between ice and wheels. Like knowing how not to mix words between two languages, you will soon "know" what's better for wheels compared to ice.

I'm curious as to what you mean about the technique being differnet between ice and wheels?
I tried the new "off-ice skating" boots this week (new entrant into the PIC skate market). These have been developed by an ice skating coach and once I got over the whole "it's wheels" thing, did feel very similar to ice. The coach was saying that PIC skates have too high a heel so mean you don't get you weight in the right place. I'm confused by this, as I would expect that your weight varies because of the different heel heights of the boots.
I was impressed by the off-ice skates and so am thinking about getting them (although I've not yet worked out where I could go use them, which doesn't actually make it easier to just go to the rink).

[Bill_S]

Don't get me wrong, PICS feel a lot like ice skates - much better than the plastic-booted, rear-stop roller blades with no rocker. When I first tried my PICS in my garage, I felt right at home.

But there are differences. The largest difference is that edge stops are not going to happen. If you do hockey stops or tango stops where the blade skids controllably on ice, that will likely cause a topple on wheels. They don't skid the same, and wheels are much more "grabby" if you try. (Note: Some advanced users could probably do hockey stops on inlines, but it will feel completely different. You aren't controlling the skid through a little tilt of the blade, you're heeled over at the slip angle of the wheels. There's not much modulation of the skid, and that's scary.)

The same "grabby" thing applies when doing threes or brackets. If your weight isn't on the right spot, you're not going to "skid" the turn to get through it. The wheels will bite in, and the turn will be awkward at best, or you'll fall at the worst.

The good news is that if you can do threes and brackets on inlines, doing them on ice should be much easier.

I'm not sure what is meant by "heel height" issues. I did replace the stock GAM boots that came with my PICS with Riedells as soon as I could though. It wasn't heel height, but the lack of support for my ankles that caused me to switch. I just didn't like the GAMs at all, and they stressed my ankle too much.

[fsk8r]

Thanks Bill for the explanation.
I'm not too sure what the coach was meaning, but she seemed to be saying that when doing things like 3 turns your weight wouldn't be exactly in the same place on the PICs as it would be on the ice. Although she did seem to be implying that if you bought her new version that it would be, and that if you could master doing them off the ice it would greatly improve your on ice abilities.

It sounds like you're finding that. She did also say that if you've got poor technique on the ice, dry land was less forgiving and so you wouldn't necessarily be able to do things that you can get away with on the ice (her example was spinning, if you spin on your toe-pick you're just not going to turn off the ice).

[Query]

I've never tried PIC skates, but I've been told by several people that hockey stops in which you jump into the sideways position are standard in-line skating technique.

The instructor who showed it to me, in a beginner level group lesson (which isn't where I think it belongs), ran a shop and admitted that skidded stops and turns were very good for wheel sales.

He stopped very fast. Since there is a lot of friction, you need a very strong lean against your motion.

I failed. Sigh. On ice, you can learn by cautiously sliding into a stop. On asphalt, you have to go for it all the way. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to wear full-body protection when learning.