Reidell R-fit or Jackson Ultima 3/5/7 Insoles

[Christy]

I want to get new insoles and have narrowed the choice down to either the Reidell R-fit or the Jackson Ultima, probably 5, insoles. I pronate more on one foot than the other so am favoring the Reidells as it looks like I can customize them for the individual foot, but looking for others experiences is trying either or both please

[tstop4me]

I've not used either the Riedell R-Fit insoles or the Jackson Supreme insoles.  I have strong pronation, different degree on each foot.  I made my own corrective insoles.  But I use a design approach similar to Riedell's:  it's much superior to fixed insoles such as Jackson Supreme or Superfeet.

With corrective insoles, if you're lucky, what you buy will work right out of the box. But if you're not, you will need to go through a Goldilocks iterative sequence (this bed is too hard, this bed is too soft, this bed is just right).  With fixed insoles, such as Superfeet or Jackson Supreme, trying out different ones typically will entail buying different ones.  Making adjustments (e.g., adding or reducing support in some areas) may be difficult.  And if you screw up, you might end up chucking it and starting over.  And, of course, these fixed insoles are sold in matched pairs:  if you have mismatched feet, you may have to buy two different pairs.

So, like Riedell, I start with a flat insole, and then add corrective local supports (e.g., longitudinal arch supports, metatarsal arch supports, and heel wedges) via Velcro tape.  This way you can independently adjust the support for each area on each foot.  There are several manufacturers that sell a range of off-the-shelf corrective local supports (I use Pedag).  They typically attach via double-sided sticky tape, which is not too reliable.  I peel off the double-sided sticky tape and use Velcro tape.  With Velcro, you can easily adjust the position of the supports and swap out the supports to find the Goldilocks value.  And, if you can't find an off-the-shelf support that works, you can more readily modify one or make one yourself. 

Playing around with different interchangeable and repositionable components gives you greater flexibility at getting a proper fit, and at a lower cost, than trying out different fixed insoles.  So if you're choosing between Riedell and Jackson, I would recommend Riedell strictly from a design perspective.  I don't know how well they are made and how long they last, though. Hope others with direct experience will chime in.

[supersharp]

I haven't used the R-fit insoles but they look like a good idea.  I've seen plenty of the Jackson insoles and they work pretty well , but with your two feet being different, you will probably be happier with the built-in customization of the Riedells.  Plus it looks very simple to switch between the options, so evaluating the difference won't be such a struggle. 

I have custom insoles in my Harlicks, but even those occasionally require a tune-up, for whatever reason.  Coming from the world of ski instruction, I am accustomed to using whatever materials on hand that seem to make sense.  Layers of vinyl tape are often good, you can offset each layer to create a ramp if you need to lift one side higher than another.  Duct tape works temporarily but ultimately makes kind of a gooey mess and the tape tends to deform over time, whereas the vinyl tape holds up pretty well as long as you don't stretch it when applying it (because it will return to its original length over time and distort the built-up layer).

Good luck and give up a full report on how things work out.

[Christy]

I just ordered a pair of the Rfit insoles, so will report back when I've tried them.

[Christy]

Well I can't provide much of a review. I received the insoles, but they looked like they'd been used as they were covered in fluff and the adjustment parts looked dirty and scuffed. I did manage to clean the parts and it seemed like heavy dust so not sure if it was a result of the manufacturing process.
So I didn't try them in my skates, but from looking them over I'd say the idea is good but the insoles seemed fairly flimsy whilst the arch supports looked like they might be too long and cause some discomfort. I think you may be able to shorten them, but not sure if that would affect how they were attached. I would be concerned about how long they'd last, but if they help / fix a problem they're probably worth trying.

[FigureSpins]

I have a very-old pair of the r-fit insoles from Riedell that I don't use any more.  When they were new, they worked well enough, but over time the micro-velcro started to loosen and the adjustment pieces moved out of place.  I cleaned/crazy-glued them back in place several times but just gave up and went with SuperFeet Yellow insoles.  They're okay, but I really think that it's the blade alignment that makes the biggest difference.  Once you adjust a blade, adding a different insole may require you to "undo" the blade alignment.  Just mho

FWIW, my Riedell R-Fits came in a clear plastic "pillow box" that was pretty scratched up on the outside from being transported by the vendor.  (The vendor set up displays/sales tables at competitions, seminars, etc. all over the east coast.)  However, the parts inside were clean, which is important with the microvelcro.  *shrugs*

[Nate]

Like the R-Fit.  You can support the arch and outside wedge with them.  Pretty much the only OTC Corrective Insoles that allow this.


Hated the Supreme.  Stepped on the ice and right off.  Wasn't even going to bother, I knew what I was in for.  They do make me appreciate everything Elaine Zayak overcame to be a world-class skater, though.

[Christy]

I have a very-old pair of the r-fit insoles from Riedell that I don't use any more.  When they were new, they worked well enough, but over time the micro-velcro started to loosen and the adjustment pieces moved out of place.  I cleaned/crazy-glued them back in place several times but just gave up and went with SuperFeet Yellow insoles.  They're okay, but I really think that it's the blade alignment that makes the biggest difference.  Once you adjust a blade, adding a different insole may require you to "undo" the blade alignment.  Just mho

FWIW, my Riedell R-Fits came in a clear plastic "pillow box" that was pretty scratched up on the outside from being transported by the vendor.  (The vendor set up displays/sales tables at competitions, seminars, etc. all over the east coast.)  However, the parts inside were clean, which is important with the microvelcro.  *shrugs*

I have some pronation and a very high arch so in the past the skate tech has aligned the blade beyond the edge of the boot and I often feel like my foot is twisted as a result, so I was hoping that insoles would be a better way to resolve the pronation problems.

[tstop4me]

They're okay, but I really think that it's the blade alignment that makes the biggest difference.  Once you adjust a blade, adding a different insole may require you to "undo" the blade alignment.  Just mho

Actually, shimming the blades makes the most profound difference.  Depending on the cause and the degree of pronation (or supination), you may need one or more of corrective footbed, blade alignment, and shimming.  But you're right, adding a new correction will likely affect a previous correction.  Some iteration may be needed.

There are physical constraints on the degree of correction that can be achieved by each method.  And it's better to avoid extreme correction by any one method:  a combo of moderate corrections is more satisfactory if needed.

[tstop4me]

Like the R-Fit.  You can support the arch and outside wedge with them.  Pretty much the only OTC Corrective Insoles that allow this.


Hated the Supreme.  Stepped on the ice and right off.  Wasn't even going to bother, I knew what I was in for.  They do make me appreciate everything Elaine Zayak overcame to be a world-class skater, though.

The Jackson website shows an arch element and a heel element on the Supreme insoles.  Are you saying that the heel element provides only uniform lift and is not configured as a wedge for angular correction?

[Nate]

The Jackson website shows an arch element and a heel element on the Supreme insoles.  Are you saying that the heel element provides only uniform lift and is not configured as a wedge for angular correction?

Left Insole of both Supreme and R-Fit (as I wear them):  https://imgur.com/a/5iuocfI

The Supreme is configured with inside wedging for Pronators.  For people who supinate or who have more unorthodox biomechanical configuration and need outside heel wedging in a specific boot, they will not help.  They will actually exacerbate the issue and you won't be able to do secure outside edges in them as you won't have good foot <-> skate/footbed contact in the boot when wearing them.

Outside of R-Fit, the only reliable ways to get decent correctly made for skates is to "roll your own" or go to a Podiatrist and get custom orthotics made for your skates (specifically for your foot - the "gold standard").

Rolling your own viable...  The major issue is how spatially limited you are within a skating boot and acquiring materials that are lightweight and solid enough to not degrade too fast, forcing you to do constant rebuilds to maintain them.  In a properly fitted boot, there simply isn't much room to play with, so you can easily run out of room trying to "stack corrections" in there.

Shimming can work, but the quality of the materials used for the shimming matters a lot.  If it compresses then you start getting into a situation where the blade becomes unstable and starts pulling the screw out and too much water starts getting into the screw hole ... accelerating wear and tear on the boot.  Basically the same issue that happens when the sold of the boot is not level and you mount a blade onto it.

I do know someone who wears the Supreme footbeds and swears by them, so they obviously work for some people.

[Nate]

They're okay, but I really think that it's the blade alignment that makes the biggest difference.

Blade Alignment shouldn't even be a consideration until the foot biomechanics are corrected within the boot.  Otherwise, you're doing the job of an Orthotic with blade mount placement, and that actually never works.


Fix the underlying foot biomechanics and often you don't need to do much work when mounting the blades.

I find boot choice to be a big factor, having been through most brands.  Footbed profile across different boot brands (and sometimes across models within a brand e.g. Risport) vary wildly, and I found this to have a huge impact on how much - and even what type of - correction I needed in a boot to skate on them.  I couldn't skate on any US brand skates without hours and hours of micro-adjustments for the blade.

Jacksons are probably the most neutral brand out there, so I do recommend them as long as you don't have to deal with their custom service (or lack thereof).

[Isk8NYC]

Yes, that's what I said.  For the record, it is near-impossible to check the insoles/footbed/orthotic without blades or ice.  What feels okay on the ground feels very different once the blade is added as a balance point. 

[tstop4me]

Blade Alignment shouldn't even be a consideration until the foot biomechanics are corrected within the boot.  Otherwise, you're doing the job of an Orthotic with blade mount placement, and that actually never works.

<<Emphasis added,>>  That goes a bit too far.  Adjusting the blade mount by itself, without a corrective footbed/orthotic, does work when the degree of pronation/supination is small and the skater has no other foot issues (such as fallen arches).  As you yourself pointed out above, fitting the proper corrective footbed/orthotic isn't always straightforward.  So if the problem can be solved by a slight shift in the blade mount (with or without shims), that's an easy, robust solution. 

By "slight shift" I mean no more than ~1/8" offset between the longitudinal axis of the blade and the longitudinal axis of the outsole/heel of the boot.  Offsetting the blade causes the body weight not to be centered over the blade.  This yields a counter-torque to overcome the natural pronation/supination.  If the offset is too large, the balance is unstable.  But if the offset is small, the balance is stable.

I've done this for several skaters.  The latest was just several months ago for a skater who's an advanced solo ice dancer.  She knows right away what feels right and what doesn't.  She had tried a couple of off-the-shelf corrective footbeds.  No dice.  I removed the blades, plugged the holes, and remounted the blades.  I had her go back to the original insoles.  I went with her on the ice, watched her moves, and made blade adjustments in a hockey box.  One boot was fine after I adjusted the offset to ~1/8".  The other boot required ~1/8" offset plus thin shims.  She's been happy ever since.

[tstop4me]

Left Insole of both Supreme and R-Fit (as I wear them):  https://imgur.com/a/5iuocfI

The Supreme is configured with inside wedging for Pronators.  For people who supinate or who have more unorthodox biomechanical configuration and need outside heel wedging in a specific boot, they will not help.  They will actually exacerbate the issue and you won't be able to do secure outside edges in them as you won't have good foot <-> skate/footbed contact in the boot when wearing them.

Thanks for the clarification.  I misunderstood what you wrote in your Reply #6 above.

 

[tstop4me]

Outside of R-Fit, the only reliable ways to get decent correctly made for skates is to "roll your own" or go to a Podiatrist and get custom orthotics made for your skates (specifically for your foot - the "gold standard"). ...

* Yes, custom orthotics properly fitted by a podiatrist ideally is the way to go.  Unfortunately, there are few podiatrists experienced in fitting orthotics for figure skate boots.  I strongly pronate.  Badly screwed-up feet and legs.  I have a good podiatrist who did a great job fitting orthotics for my walking shoes and running shoes, but he admitted he had no experience with figure skate boots.  I asked around and couldn't find anyone within a reasonable drive.  So I made my own corrective footbeds.  After some trial-and-error runs, my first full-fledged trial version lasted about a year.  My second version I made in ~early 2016, and is still going fine (knock off 6+ months for rink closures during the pandemic).  I bought all the materials and components from (where else) Amazon.  I recently got new boots and blades, and made a new pair of corrective footbeds.  The materials and components were still available from Amazon, except for the Poron sheet.  But I still had enough from a previous purchase, and it is still available online from industrial supply houses.   I have Jackson boots, and they allow a reasonable amount of room for corrective footbeds once you remove the factory insoles.

* Yes, most skate techs I know cut shims from sheets of natural or artificial leather.  I agree that these degrade.  I make thin shims from sheets of semi-rigid plastic (such as polyethylene or polypropylene).  For thicker shims, I use plastic or metal (brass or stainless steel) washers.  All these shims will outlast the boot.  One advantage of shims over corrective footbeds and blade offsets is that you can adjust the shims on the fly to find the correct value.  I've designed a set of trial shims that fit around the mounting screws securely, but can be inserted/removed by loosening the screws without taking the screws out entirely.  That way I can have a skater try out several sets of shims in succession during one ice session.  Once I know the Goldilocks value, I fashion more robust shims for final installation.

[Nate]

<<Emphasis added,>>  That goes a bit too far.  Adjusting the blade mount by itself, without a corrective footbed/orthotic, does work when the degree of pronation/supination is small and the skater has no other foot issues (such as fallen arches).  As you yourself pointed out above, fitting the proper corrective footbed/orthotic isn't always straightforward.  So if the problem can be solved by a slight shift in the blade mount (with or without shims), that's an easy, robust solution. 

By "slight shift" I mean no more than ~1/8" offset between the longitudinal axis of the blade and the longitudinal axis of the outsole/heel of the boot.  Offsetting the blade causes the body weight not to be centered over the blade.  This yields a counter-torque to overcome the natural pronation/supination.  If the offset is too large, the balance is unstable.  But if the offset is small, the balance is stable.

10-15 years ago I would have been completely in agreement with you, but with the experience I've had... I say it isn't worth it and people are better off going get some corrections and/or finding a boot that works better for their feet.  A lot of what seems to work perfectly now, but actually isn't, doesn't expose its detriments until 5, 8, 10, 15 years down the line.  Their bodies, their choices :-P

[Nate]

Yes, that's what I said.  For the record, it is near-impossible to check the insoles/footbed/orthotic without blades or ice.  What feels okay on the ground feels very different once the blade is added as a balance point.

Yea, that's the conundrum with how boots and blades are sold.  You can't really be sure how the fit is without actually skating in them, but any modification makes them unreturnable.  So, you always have to be willing to waste the money to be sure.

[tstop4me]

10-15 years ago I would have been completely in agreement with you, but with the experience I've had... I say it isn't worth it and people are better off going get some corrections and/or finding a boot that works better for their feet.  A lot of what seems to work perfectly now, but actually isn't, doesn't expose its detriments until 5, 8, 10, 15 years down the line.  Their bodies, their choices :-P

But then what's your blade-mount criteria for no corrective footbed or orthotic needed (not to have issues X years down the road)?  The longitudinal axis of the blade should be aligned dead on with the longitudinal axis of the outsole/heel of the boot?  If so, what tolerance do you allow for dead on (ETA: given the characteristics of the blade, boot, insole/footbed/orthotic, foot, and mounting procedures)?

[supersharp]

I agree that the blade should not be more than about 1/8" away from the anatomical center of the foot--but you have to look at the foot, not just the boot.
 
PART 1
I always try to look at the shape of the skater's foot on top of the insole to see where on that outline the foot is sitting.  This will tell you if they are wearing a larger size to accommodate width, which is not the most favorable for skating.  If the width is not correct, that is the first thing that needs to be fixed, because the foot cannot manipulate the boot properly if it is being compressed laterally.

Once the width situation is taken care of, I still want to see the skater's foot on the insole to see where the space between the big toe and the next toe is located, which is generally the most favorable location for the front of the blade sits.  I just want to see if it is in a surprising place, which would indicate that the blade may not be centered under the foot anatomically when it is centered under the boot.  Tipping the boot to the inside and outside edges works best if the big toe joint lies to one side of the blade and most of the other toe joints are on the other side. This gives you a fulcrum on either side to press down and tip the sole platform.

See PART 2 next

[supersharp]

PART 2
It is also useful to identify whether they have long or short toes.  Manipulation of the front of the skate is accomplished with a combination of movements of the ankle, foot, and toes, and the location where the big toe joint at the ball of the foot is important.  If the skater has short toes, this location will be closer to the front of the boots, and if the toes are long, it will be farther back.  Depending on the blade profile, the skater may (or may not) want to have a slight fore-aft adjustment of blade placement to keep the sweet spot from being too far under the tip of the big toe or too close to the ball of the foot.  Some of this can be solved by switching blade profiles, e.g. MK Professional (more abrupt transition closer to toe rake) instead of Coronation Ace (gentler transition starting farther back from the toe pick).

I have feet with high arches and the shape of the bones is shorter on the inside of my heels, so if I drop all my weight onto my foot with no muscle control, my heels pronate and my achilles tendons are both pulled toward the center as you look at them from behind.  I use a pronation correction in my skates, ski boots, and tap shoes.  In some other footwear, I use corrective insoles but I have found that my feet benefit from working to hold their position some of the time (like someone standing guard) compared to always having a correction in there (lounging on the couch instead). 

Shimming with the insole or under the insole seems most favorable in general, because it solves the alignment problem where it starts--with the foot.  If that can't be accommodated (or can only be partially corrected) due to lack of space, the next place would be to shim under the blade as tstop4me suggests.  Just be sure to shim the blade evenly so you don't create twist, meaning if you shim the heel plate of the blade, you need to also shim the front sole plate in order to keep the blade from being twisted when you tighten the screws. 

[supersharp]

PART 3

SIDEBAR
I have heard many people say to just tighten the screws and the boot will move to match the blade plates, but in my experience, this statement is only true for blades like Matrix or Paramount, where the sole plates are extremely torsionally stable.  I have experimented with tightening blades onto other boots, using machinist bars to watch the changes, and the center section of the blade will twist to allow the plates to be pulled to the boot soles.  In lightweight boots like Edea, the boot probably will deform and the blade will win this battle, but with sturdier soles, the boot can overwhelm the blade's ability to stay straight.  I have seen this on my own boots, and waited weeks to see if it resolves by itself, and the answer was NO, the blade has to be shimmed to sit correctly on the sole.  Keep in mind that with these hand-brazed sole plates, the sole plates might be attached at slightly different angles.  It's a combination of the boot sole shape and the blade plate attachment, and the only way that can really guarantee that the blades are correct is to sharpen them with level edges and them mount them and check with the machinist bars, shimming as needed to have the final mounting correct.  Can you feel the difference when there is a 1-mm difference across the length of a 6" machinist bar?  I know I can, and at this point I have analyzed it enough that if I suspect it is twisted, when I check, I am correct.  It shows up most when you are going slowly and or a sustained edge that needs to move the pressure from front to back (or back to front) as you make a transition.  As you move along the blade, you will hit a point where you have to change the angle of your foot to stay on the edge because the edge has been twisted out from under you.  Not a good feeling.  As insoles and shims compress or boots lose their stiffness, you may find that you need to re-check the mounting if you are feeling that odd edge insecurity.

[tstop4me]

@supersharp.  Thanks for the detailed write-up.  One of the most thorough I've seen.  Comments and questions to follow after another read.

[tstop4me]

PART 3

SIDEBAR
I have heard many people say to just tighten the screws and the boot will move to match the blade plates, but in my experience, this statement is only true for blades like Matrix or Paramount, where the sole plates are extremely torsionally stable.  ... 

Yep.  Just for kicks, at one time I played around with mounting an old pair of blades on an old pair of boots, intentionally misaligning the sole and heel plates.  I too expected either the boot to deform or the screws to strip out.  Instead, the blade bent.  Informative exercise.

[tstop4me]

PART 2
Shimming with the insole or under the insole seems most favorable in general, because it solves the alignment problem where it starts--with the foot.  If that can't be accommodated (or can only be partially corrected) due to lack of space, the next place would be to shim under the blade as tstop4me suggests.  Just be sure to shim the blade evenly so you don't create twist, meaning if you shim the heel plate of the blade, you need to also shim the front sole plate in order to keep the blade from being twisted when you tighten the screws.

<<Emphasis added.>>  This is key.  Yet I've never come across any tech (including otherwise fairly decent ones) who does this.  Several techs who have shimmed my boots over the years have always simply put a shim under the heel plate.  Same with other skaters' boots I've looked at.  When I shim, I have separate coordinated sets for sole and heel plates to maintain constant angle.

I agree that wedging inside the boot is (ideally) preferable to shimming the blade.  But there are more constraints within the boot, especially for boots with sharply defined heel pockets.  And as I mentioned above, it's relatively easy (with the right design of shims) to try out a sequence of shims in fairly quick succession to find the Goldilocks value:  the skater doesn't even need to unlace.  As long as the skater doesn't have any other foot issues that require an orthotic, this can work well.  Going through different iterations of arch supports and heel wedges gets to be extremely time consuming.  And as I mentioned above, I think a combo of moderate different corrections is preferable to any one extreme correction.  I personally have corrective footbeds with heel wedges; offset blades; and shims.

Most skaters have a major problem when tweaking their gear:  too long an interval between iterations.  The skater tries out their gear; notes problems; and returns to their tech.  The tech makes some adjustments.   The skater tries out their adjusted gear, and repeats the process until they are satisfied.  It's difficult to do A-B comparisons hours, days, or even weeks apart (depending on the skater's and the tech's schedules).