Nice jumps/spins/turns, but poor stroking and crossovers

[momtovanan]

My Coach uses the term "tricks" without meaning to offend either and I do not have problem with it. I am also thinking gliding maneuvers fall under this category so it's not just spins and jumps. More direct and descriptive, I imagine children will understand "tricks" better than "freestyle elements"?

Anyways, there is a delicate balance between 1) achieving as much as possible in freestyle elements and 2) obtaining decent basics to back up the freestyle elements.

Would you mind sharing what specifically does coach make your daughter work on?

It took a while to convince Coach that I want to work on my weak basics instead of solely focusing on test requirements for FS level. He has excellent figures background so everything works out perfectly.

He asked her to do following exercises prior to do jumps, spins, program and moves test. He is a good coach but my daughter does not like this part at all. Her skating skill is not a reflection of his teaching at all. He tried to correct her all the times even when she was not in the lesson with him.
1. Russian stroke (3 times around the rinks)
2. Forward crossover, backward crossover.
3. Cross rolls (forward/backward)
4 Power pulls (Forward/backward)
5. 3 turns (forward/backward)
6. Mohawk turns
7. Choctaw
8. Twizzle

[MadMac]

He asked her to do following exercises prior to do jumps, spins, program and moves test. He is a good coach but my daughter does not like this part at all. Her skating skill is not a reflection of his teaching at all. He tried to correct her all the times even when she was not in the lesson with him.
1. Russian stroke (3 times around the rinks)
2. Forward crossover, backward crossover.
3. Cross rolls (forward/backward)
4 Power pulls (Forward/backward)
5. 3 turns (forward/backward)
6. Mohawk turns
7. Choctaw
8. Twizzle

This is a typical set of warm-up exercises that every skater should do every time s/he gets on the ice. It is like practicing scales on a musical instrument -- not so much fun, but so necessary to develop smooth, strong skating. She'll dislike them less as she improves on them.

[techskater]

Typically when the skater is pronounced good enough at that set, some get swapped for different exercises or the exercises get expanded upon.

[MadMac]

Typically when the skater is pronounced good enough at that set, some get swapped for different exercises or the exercises get expanded upon.

Yep! Just when you thought you were getting pretty good, the coach always ups the ante!!

[rosereedy]

First, let's not get bent out of shape by calling it tricks vs elements. It is really not a big deal.  There is more to worry about than that kind of stuff. Second, I see every time I skate some kid that can do an axel or working on doubles but can barely skate or couldn't pass pre-preliminary moves. The coaches and parents now want kids that can do these "tricks" for the sheer factor of saying little Betsy is working on doubles and only been skating a year. I come from old school skating where you must be doing basic stuff well before working on the next hardest thing.  Not doing basics well can also lead to injury down the road because lack of control in spins and jumps or footwork.

[twokidsskatemom]

First, let's not get bent out of shape by calling it tricks vs elements. It is really not a big deal.  There is more to worry about than that kind of stuff. Second, I see every time I skate some kid that can do an axel or working on doubles but can barely skate or couldn't pass pre-preliminary moves. The coaches and parents now want kids that can do these "tricks" for the sheer factor of saying little Betsy is working on doubles and only been skating a year. I come from old school skating where you must be doing basic stuff well before working on the next hardest thing.  Not doing basics well can also lead to injury down the road because lack of control in spins and jumps or footwork.

I see it alot in kids that start in the age 11,12 ish range.They dont understand that the skaters that started younger spent years working on the boring stuff.They just see the jumps and tricks as all there is to skating.They seem to be the ones that end up stopping sooner.

[jjane45]

He asked her to do following exercises...
1. Russian stroke (3 times around the rinks)
2. Forward crossover, backward crossover.
3. Cross rolls (forward/backward)
4 Power pulls (Forward/backward)
5. 3 turns (forward/backward)
6. Mohawk turns
7. Choctaw
8. Twizzle

Thanks for sharing. I agree with MadMac that it's a set of good warm up routine that skaters should do for every session.

The "prescription" I got from Coach was edges, lots of edges with the correct free leg position and extension. At one point he said "spend 20 minutes on edges every time you skate, 5 minutes each for FO / FI / BO / BI". I probably never did the whole 20 minutes, but have since paid much more attention to edges.

[aussieskater]

1. Russian stroke (3 times around the rinks)
2. Forward crossover, backward crossover.
3. Cross rolls (forward/backward)
4 Power pulls (Forward/backward)
5. 3 turns (forward/backward)
6. Mohawk turns
7. Choctaw
8. Twizzle

I'm so slow that by the time I did all that the session would likely be over     Seriously, that's a good set of warmup exercises.  I'm going to print it off and take it with me tomorrow.

[jumpingbeansmom]

I'm so slow that by the time I did all that the session would likely be over     Seriously, that's a good set of warmup exercises.  I'm going to print it off and take it with me tomorrow.

This sounds a lot like what I see my dd doing when she first gets on the ice-- one of her coaches is Russian

[Sk8tmum]

Also a good set of stroking for cool-down.  Stroking/edge drills should be done at both "ends" of the session.

[aussieskater]

Also a good set of stroking for cool-down.  Stroking/edge drills should be done at both "ends" of the session.

You mean I have to do all that *twice*??  That's definitely going to take the whole session!  (On the other hand, my basics would improve...)

[techskater]

Yep! Just when you thought you were getting pretty good, the coach always ups the ante!!

Yep, my one coach has "levels" to his exercises.  Currently at L3 on some, L4 on others, and even his top level, L5 on one or two.  His start with some that appear deceptively easy and work their way up.  A friend came out after I had been skating with him for about a year and he had me demonstrate L1 and L2 of his stroking exercises.  She thought they were easy... until she tried them. 

[LilJen]

They're not "tricks," they're ILLUSIONS </end Arrested Development reference>

I see LOTS of this. Lots of little whippy jumps and hunched over stroking that looks effortful. yeah, it's great when a skater has all his/her doubles, but when you can see the effort of pushing across the ice and hear SCRATCH SCRATCH SCRATCH it's just not as much fun to watch.

[FigureSpins]

You mean illusions or delusions?

[blue111moon]

I see the discrepancy most in competitions where USFS and ISI skaters compete together.  In general (and yes, I know this is a vast generalization and has no basis other than my own observation and opinion), the ISI skaters seem to have weaker basics outside of the elements on their tests than the USFS skaters.  For example, when the ISI test requires a pattern containing 3 turns, the three turns within the pattern will be okay the 3 turns in the program setting up for a jup, say, will be scratchy and uncontrolled.  I have to say, too, that I've never seen the ISI coaches at my rink spending a lot of time on basics like stroking and turns beyond what's required on the test the skater is working on.  Whereas, the USFS coaches generally begin each lesson with plain stroking, forward and backward and then with whatever edges and turns the skaters is working on before getting to the "fun stuff."  I think IJS's PCS scores have pushed coaches into putting more emphasis on cleaning up edges and turns.

I know one of the few complements I get on my skating is that I have strong edges and good flow, both of which I put down to having done decades of figures when I first started skating.  Even with MIF, I don't see skaters and coaches putting close to the same effort into perfecting those skills now, but (again in general) I see the USFS skaters working them much more than the ISI ones.

Also, if you want an example of of a high-level skater who (IMO) epitomized the strong tricks/weak skills model, look at early Surya Bonaly.  Her background in tumbling and acrobatics gave her very athletic jumps and spins but the girl couldn't stroke to save her life.  The most common criticism I heard from judges at the time was that she had NO edges to speak of, which is probably what kept her from achieving the vistories she (and her mother) thought she deserved based on her jumps.  I suspect that if IJS had been in effect during her heyday, she might not even have done as well as she did, primarily because her skating skills were so far below par for the international level.

[sarahspins]

Some skaters with limited resources get their fundamentals from group lessons, and start small privates around lutz / axel to focus on harder tricks. In this case it's difficult to develop beautiful basic skills unless the skater competes USFS and needs to pass MITF tests.

I agree, and this was pretty much me.. I sailed through LTS classes and I had all of my singles except for axel when I started taking private lessons (and I think I had tested through FS4 by that point too), and my coach had to pick-apart and make me re-learn EVERY jump.  The ones I struggled with the most to get right were the toe loop and waltz jump of all things.. two that should have been the simpler ones. However I had learned them poorly, and while they were passable for lower FS levels, I had to fix all of my singles before I was "allowed" to work on axels by my coach.  I do think that extra work paid off - I had my axel (solidly) after only 6 weeks of concentrated effort.  Even after I injured my knee about 6 months later.. once I was back on the ice after rehab (9 months later) I actually had it back the first day I tried them (which was several weeks after getting back on the ice).

When I started working more on moves (at about the point where I had my axel), my overall skating improved my leaps and bounds.. in terms of power, confidence, and flow.  I actually prefer working on moves right now because I feel like I can more easily see (or rather, feel) the improvements vs working on jumps or spins.

[LilJen]

You mean illusions or delusions?

Ha. Sometimes they ARE delusional. Jo Schmo thinks she can do an axel, but nope. (There was a character on Arrested Development who was a magician, and whenever anyone talked about the "tricks" he did he would defiantly correct them with "they're not tricks, they're illusions.")

[retired]

There is a subset of adult skaters that fit this category.   They've taken LTS classes and have learned some decent jumps, and either don't take LTS anymore or the schedule doesn't suit them and they're on their own.  They skate on the public sessions and stick to the figure skating area in the middle doing little jumps and spins.   Basically they're practicing skating in an area that's about 20' x 30'.  That doesn't do much for their stroking.    Mostly they learn off each other, if someone is taking lessons they share what they've learned.  It's not a bad way to do some figure skating but there are a few that do competitions and they're not getting the second mark.   

[AgnesNitt]

There is a subset of adult skaters that fit this category.   They've taken LTS classes and have learned some decent jumps, and either don't take LTS anymore or the schedule doesn't suit them and they're on their own.  They skate on the public sessions and stick to the figure skating area in the middle doing little jumps and spins.   Basically they're practicing skating in an area that's about 20' x 30'.  That doesn't do much for their stroking.    Mostly they learn off each other, if someone is taking lessons they share what they've learned.  It's not a bad way to do some figure skating but there are a few that do competitions and they're not getting the second mark.   

I just got back from Lake Placid Adult Skate Camp. One of my goals was to rebuild my crossovers. Which I did. Adults that don't have good fundamentals are just like little kids who don't have good fundamentals. They only want to do 'fun/exciting' stuff.

[sampaguita]

Adults that don't have good fundamentals are just like little kids who don't have good fundamentals.

Except that the adults will look worse than the kids. Toe-pushing kids look cute but toe-pushing adults look horrible.

[AgnesNitt]

Except that the adults will look worse than the kids. Toe-pushing kids look cute but toe-pushing adults look horrible.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Toe pushing kids look horrible too--except to their parents.

[sampaguita]

I wonder if toe-pushing adults also look good to their parents/children... 

[Isk8NYC]

I've had students that persisted in toe-pushing because their parents told them that the toepicks are there for that very reason.  It took a lot of persistence to get them to change their ways and they still do it when they don't think.

[retired]

I wonder if toe-pushing adults also look good to their parents/children...  

LOL, not.  I got busted by my own kids the last time I skated a program and it was one crosscut, and I knew it at the time that I'd walked off the toe.   And they wouldn't even tell me my dress was pretty either.    Skater kids are the worst critics 

[KillianL]

I see lots of young girls passing me up in classes.  I've been in FS4 like 15 times already (I have legitimately lost count) and they don't hang around for more than 2-3 sessions.  However, the little kids have less mass to lug around, a lower center of gravity, and most importantly a lot less fear than older (read: taller and more adult-shaped) girls and adults, so the young kids can sort of just DO the elements at the various FS class levels, well enough to pass the ISI tests, even though the elements are far from polished.  Like so many of you have already observed, the real skating skill - or lack thereof - shows in the quality of moves practice or just general stroking.  I, by contrast, have big, powerful crossovers, and maybe look like I'm setting up to do something impressive, then *hop!* a tiny jump materializes.  Meh.  I often wonder what it would have been like to skate as a kid...