skatingforums
On the Ice => Sitting on the Boards Rink Side => Topic started by: jjane45 on August 05, 2012, 01:58:34 PM
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What are pre bronze and bronze freestyle tests equivalent of in the standard track? Like maybe preliminary and pre juvenile? Is there a comparison chart somewhere? Thank you in advance :)
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Roughly prepre and preliminary, though the standard track tests are definetly harder.
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Thank you very much. I am not testing standard track (no way), just curious about how they convert. So is it correct that for freestyle,
pre-pre ~ prebronze
prelim ~ bronze
prejuv ~ silver
juv ~ gold
then the tracks merge at intermediate?
Moves in the field conversion seems to be more of a mix and match...
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Yes, however if you are testing standard track MIF, you have to be "one up" to take the FS test
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They are "roughly" equivalent, but the adult FS tests are much less demanding than their standard track counterparts.
I don't think honestly with the way they currently are that the adult MITF tests are "easier", at best they are slightly restructured. The moves tests actually all have at least one element from a higher level test - that technically makes them harder than standard track (though they are arranged in a way that may make them easier for some adults to test). However on the flip side, when you finish the adult moves and go on to test intermediate moves, you've already tested two of those patterns, so it makes that test slightly easier to train for, in comparison, because you only have to learn 3 more patterns (and the passing standard is the same between gold and intermediate at 3.0 for each pattern, so it should not technically be judged to a higher standard).
I've opted to start over with adult track rather than stay with standard track since I end up having to take the same number of tests to get to the same place - even though I took pre-pre in 1996 it doesn't put me at any advantage because you have to test one level higher in standard track to match the adult track tests (because of those moves borrowed from higher level tests).
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I don't think honestly with the way they currently are that the adult MITF tests are "easier", at best they are slightly restructured. The moves tests actually all have at least one element from a higher level test - that technically makes them harder than standard track (though they are arranged in a way that may make them easier for some adults to test).
I'm particularly interested in the last sentence. Why would the arrangement make it easier for some adults, if the elements include things from the higher level? :)
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^the passing standard is lower.
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^the passing standard is lower.
True as far as the numerical value required*. As far as what they are actually looking to see...my experience in testing (and being "invited to retry") Silver - twice - was quite different. There might have been a lower numerical passing value assigned to my cross strokes than the standard track, but what the judges were expecting to see was, based on the comments, pretty close to the same as the standard track. It doesn't seem like there are enough adults testing Silver in my area for the judges to have any consistent expectations on what an "adult" standard should look like, so we pretty much get judged at the kids' standard anyway. At that point, I might as well just test standard track.
*and then there's the paradox of Silver moves that formerly had the pre-pre spirals and now the prelim spirals...either way you theoretically have to do them to a higher standard than on standard. Ugh. For me that's by far one of the hardest moves on prelim, doesn't help that I hate to practice spirals in general, so just getting it *to* a prelim standard is enough of a challenge. To get them above prelim standard...probably not gonna ever happen for me.
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^the passing standard is lower.
Sort of, I guess, but this only applies to things taken from a higher level, not lower, but really the difference is some things that are especially difficult for adults are left out... or delayed in the case of the silver/prelim spiral pattern, but because of the passing standard being higher for silver than preliminary, even that is a bit of a catch-22.
Back power 3's from juvenile for example are one thing I am very glad is NOT on any of the adult tests.. my coach makes me work on them but I hate doing them and I would dread having to test those more than any other move I've worked on... and for me it's not doing either direction that is the problem, it's going from doing one side to the other, because I get SO dizzy after the first set and the second side is a disaster.
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(and the passing standard is the same between gold and intermediate at 3.0 for each pattern, so it should not technically be judged to a higher standard).
Actually, Intermediate passing standard is 3.2
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Actually, Intermediate passing standard is 3.2
Not for adults.. and masters is down to 2.8 or something along those lines. Not that in the "real world" it makes a huge difference, but the passing standards ARE lower for adults doing standard track tests.
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Only if you CHOOSE to take it on the adult track. I took and passed Intermediate on standard track and will take Novice, etc on standard track (not adult or masters track) because it IS possible to generate the power required by an adult to pass on the standard track
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Only if you CHOOSE to take it on the adult track. I took and passed Intermediate on standard track and will take Novice, etc on standard track (not adult or masters track) because it IS possible to generate the power required by an adult to pass on the standard track
Okay I'm not arguing that AT ALL, but my point was still that if you CHOOSE to take it at the adult standard (which I would imagine is inferred when we are discussing moving on to the intermediate moves test following completion of the adult track moves), the passing standard is in fact the same. I don't understand why you are arguing with me on this one. I wasn't exactly wrong, given the context.
I think it's great if you want to make a choice to test those moves at the standard track passing standard, but at least adults do have the option not to. HOWEVER, as I stated before, with the current judging system and the way most tests seem to be judged, testing standard vs. adult may not matter since judges who aren't familiar with adults testing will likely just judge everyone to the same standard anyways, so makes little difference.
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Thank you for the great discussions, very informative to a newbie tester :) To be honest, being an adult onset skater I truly appreciate all the bonuses TPTB gives to adult skaters!!!!!
Sarahspins and tazsk8s, sorry to hear judges in your area do not know how to apply those rules appropriately, does it make you feel better that Chicago is known to have one of the lowest passing rates?... :)
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I know I've said this before, but I think it bears repeating:
Part of the USFS judges' training process (trial judging) requires the judge to establish, through repeated observation (trial judging) a personal scale of marking each element on a test. The judge has ONE standard - she/he eventally knows what crossover or a spiral or a jump SHOULD look like. The marking system then rates those elements by the level. On the 6.0 scale which is still used for tests, a 3.0 is AVERAGE. To a judge, that means that the skater did the element okay, or met the expectations. The judge knows what a 3.0 "looks like" to him/her and marks what the skater does according to that mental standard, regardless of the skater's age.
The difference between the Adult tests and the Standard tracks doesn't require the judges to adjust their mental standards of the elements; it just allows a skater to pass with a slightly lower mark. As one National judge told me, "A salchow is a salchow is a salchow, no matter who's doing it." The elements get harder as the levels go up but the judges' mental image of each element remains constant.
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Sorry, I did not mean to offend. Question though: how do judges tell what is a 3.2 spiral sequence vs. 3.5 spiral sequence using the same mental image? How much is 0.1 increment? Judging is hard work!
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That I don't know, Jane. I'm not a judge myself; I'm an accountant and my club's test chair (as well as a skater) so I spend a lot of time with judges. I trial judged myself for a few years but never went for an appointment. It was too hard for me.
Many of the judges are very willing to talk to skaters and coaches in general terms about what they look for at a given level and give advice on how you can improve. Generally, they're very nice people - and are in the sport for the love of it. Some, of course, are more adult-friendly than others. But then, judges are individuals, too, and not some gigantic many-bodied organism with only one brain between them. :)
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Sarahspins and tazsk8s, sorry to hear judges in your area do not know how to apply those rules appropriately, does it make you feel better that Chicago is known to have one of the lowest passing rates?... :)
I'm Chicago-burbs too, so take that for whatever its' worth. :)
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Sarahspins and tazsk8s, sorry to hear judges in your area do not know how to apply those rules appropriately
I didn't say that was necessarily the case where I am.. I am extremely lucky that we have several adult skaters who are judges (including the one who will be doing my upcoming tests) who do have a better understanding of how they are meant to be scored... but in a test session you don't always know what you're going to get on the panel.
My coach wants me over prepared for my tests so that even if there was a concern about how the judges are judging, it wouldn't matter.. she says she wants the judges to be impressed. I told her this was silly since I skate with my judge and she knows what I can do, but I think because those scores and comments go down on paper, my coach just wants to earn some recognition as well.. but I know she's also looking towards the future and the next set of tests that I'll take, not just this week's :)
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...I think because those scores and comments go down on paper, my coach just wants to earn some recognition as well.. but I know she's also looking towards the future and the next set of tests that I'll take, not just this week's :)
It's always nice to be over-prepared than under-prepared. But sometimes one will have to struggle with perfectionist coaches a little bit: the skater has a decent chance already and it does not hurt to give it a try :P the skater does not need to score perfectly or to impress, a long as s/he is comfortable,confident and having a good time.
Also it takes time to find out how the skater reacts to the pressure of tests as the elements become more difficult. I made coach concerned during the bronze MITF lesson right before test, he said I was "hyper" lol.
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Sorry, I did not mean to offend. Question though: how do judges tell what is a 3.2 spiral sequence vs. 3.5 spiral sequence using the same mental image? How much is 0.1 increment? Judging is hard work!
It depends on the judge. If passing standard is 3.0 for example, and the move is better than what the judge has come to expect on a particular move, then the judge will probably give it a 3.1 and possibly if it's really good a 3.2. If it is near the judge's expectation but not quite, the judge will give it a 2.9 and if it's really missing the mark a 2.8 or even 2.7. It's rare to get much more or less than 1 or 2 tenths over or under on a particular move. Each judge seems to have a hot button (extension, edge quality, carriage, flow, speed, power, etc) that can push a marginal move either way, which is why most coaches put emphasis on everything instead of *just* extension or *just* speed and why you see split panel tests (2 pass/1 retry or 1 pass/2 retry).
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It seems, however, that if standard track passing standard is 3.0, the judge writes down 3.0 when it is what they have come to expect as passing. If the adult track passing standard is 2.8, they still expect the same thing, they just write down a lower number. There is no quantification of what it means to be .2 less than the requirement for standard track. That is what is so frustrating about adult track. It is a crap shoot for what the judges are looking for.
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There is no quantification of what it means to be .2 less than the requirement for standard track.
ITA skittl, you phrased my question beautifully :)
On the other hand, having an adult track (with allegedly lower passing standard) is a gift. Adult skaters in lots of countries do not have this benefit at all.
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is no quantification of what it means to be .2 less than the requirement for standard track. That is what is so frustrating about adult track. It is a crap shoot for what the judges are looking for.
Exactly.. the way it works now, with the lower passing averages, judges still only judge them at "passing" level.. so if an adult skater were to perform the moves 100% equally with a younger standard track skater, they are GOING to be scored lower on the same moves because that's how the test form is set up and it's what the judges are used to doing.. if a skill is performed at a 3.0 (when 3.0 is passing) for a standard test, that same move would be marked as a 2.8 on an adult test where 2.8 is passing, not because it's not as good, but simply because it's set up that way.
I guess what I've always imagined, is that either testing standard track or adult, the moves should be judged the same/fairly, it's just that the passing total is moved slightly lower for an adult. So what might be right on the bubble for standard track and might get a retry would pass as an adult test... but that's not really how it works.
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I don't know. I've certainly seen (and taken!) tests where it seemed to work that way. On the other hand, on my last dance test I was given the passing marks for a standard test even though I had taken it as a Masters test. So it really does vary by panel. I've never really been fussed over it, though. All that matters to me is whether or not the test passes, and if the panel intends for the test to pass they will assign marks that do that.
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I'm frustrated by what seems to be a moving standard because I got a retry on a good test and a pass on one I thought sucked. I'm not going to complain about the pass...I'll just call it being even, but it made no sense. The comments on the retry papers were actually more complimentary.
It seems like all tests should be pass/fail for the test because the numbers don't mean much. 2.8 has the same meaning as if the judge gave you a green heart.
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It seems, however, that if standard track passing standard is 3.0, the judge writes down 3.0 when it is what they have come to expect as passing. If the adult track passing standard is 2.8, they still expect the same thing, they just write down a lower number. There is no quantification of what it means to be .2 less than the requirement for standard track. That is what is so frustrating about adult track. It is a crap shoot for what the judges are looking for.
+1,000,000
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I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree then. *sigh* Judging, like skating, is as much an art as it is a science, and results are always going to be subjective and flexible because of the human factor.
I just wish skaters and coaches would try to refrain from lumping all judges together into one amorphous being. Just as coaches have differing philosophies and methods of coaching, judges have differing opinions on what skating "should" look like. (The same thing applies to Tech panel members, too, but that's a topic for another thread.)
I know that some competitions (Adult Nationals is one) set up seminars and offer skaters a chance to try out judging, just to see what it feels like to be on the other side of the barrier. It's something I wish more people would take advantage of. I know I gained of LOT of respect for the judges' job when I tried (and failed) to do it myself.
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^Exactly. Welcome to the world of testing skating. We've all passed something that probably should have failed, and failed something we maybe should have passed. If you keep testing long enough, it will probably happen again. All you can do is go out there, skate your best, and see how it goes. I tell me students, it all evens out in the end.
I had a student pass a test last fall, that NO WAY should have passed. I think those frustrate me the most!
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It seems like all tests should be pass/fail for the test because the numbers don't mean much. 2.8 has the same meaning as if the judge gave you a green heart.
This is a good idea on some level - like in nonqualifying competitions where the skater never sees your actual numbers.
On the other hand it gives you a good idea of which moves were "passing" and which ones you need to work on more or at least present better at a test session.
Thank you phoenix and bluemoon for your responses on this thread as you have said it better than I could.
I do think that perhaps some people should start trial-judging just to see what it is like to be sitting on that podium as it is a LOT different than what one might imagine (and a lot colder too, LOL! ;D ).
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This is a good idea on some level - like in nonqualifying competitions where the skater never sees your actual numbers.
I've judged non-qual competitions and unless they are terrible the first skater pretty much always gets a score in the middle of the range given to us by the referee. We then place others around that score depending on what we thought of them.
It is a totally different thing than judging tests. In a non-qual, a 3.2 doesn't have meaning on a set scale. On a test- a 3.2 is supposed to meet some standard, and there SHOULD be documentation for what makes something a 3.2 as opposed to a 3.1
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I didn't realize you were a judge.
Sorry.
:blush:
Never mind.
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You don't need to apologize. I'm not a USFS judge, so never done tests- which is really the root of this frustration is about.
I've done ISI through FS3 and USFS basic skills, plus no-test and pre-pre (I don't think that was technically allowed...)
So the numbers used to judge are placeholders for ordinals. They aren't for tests though.
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You don't need to apologize. I'm not a USFS judge, so never done tests- which is really the root of this frustration is about.
I've done ISI through FS3 and USFS basic skills, plus no-test and pre-pre (I don't think that was technically allowed...)
So the numbers used to judge are placeholders for ordinals. They aren't for tests though.
Oh.
Well, I was trying to agree with you on the pass/fail idea and came up with that analogy.
Maybe it would be a good idea to get away from numbers all together. BUT I am guessing that somewhere down the pike the numbers will get even more complex if the testing system goes the way of IJS. I don't know if anyone is working on that but it is certainly something that has influenced the way we judge (especially freestyle and free dance) tests - thinking about things in terms of what is required, etc., through IJS (like is a sit spin really a sit spin if your butt is not parallel to your knee? And is this really possible for (most) adults to achieve? Is it fair to think about it that way?).
I could go on and on I suppose.
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Dear icedancer2 and amazing judges on this forum, I truly appreciate all the details you share about judging, they are the most interesting to read!
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Dear icedancer2 and amazing judges on this forum, I truly appreciate all the details you share about judging, they are the most interesting to read!
Thank you. I really appreciate it. I love skating and I love judging because I have learned so much more about skating from becoming and being a judge - there is always more to learn!
I just wanted to make another comment about the pass/fail idea for tests with no numbers involved. Would that be pass/fail for the whole test or each individual move?
Pass/fail for the whole test would be really easy for us judges but would give the skaters absolutely no feedback. HOWEVER in the old days when I was a kid skating in the 60s I don't ever remember seeing any numbers or getting any feedback from the judges. The availability of the xerox machine was pretty limited and we never got copies of the judges scores, etc. So you would just find out if you passed or failed. And it used to be that you had to pass all three judges to pass a test. There were other ridiculousnesses also such as if after 3 or so figures (on figures tests) they didn't think you were going to pass the test they would stop the test. It was called "getting pulled" (from the test). I had this happen on my 2nd figure test and it was pretty devastating. There was no explanation except that it wasn't going to pass and so they just stopped the test (lots of people's tests got stopped that day).
So back to the question of pass/fail and no numbers at all for individual moves: this is the case for Pre-pre and Pre-Bronze Moves and the Pre-Pre and Pre-Bronze FS tests. If one move is not up to passing standard, then what to do? As a judge you have a choice: pass the whole test anyway as it is an encouragement test and then have people wonder why it passed even though one move was clearly not skated "up to standard" or you fail the whole test because one move was not giving a "pass".
The way rest of the tests are set up now, with numbers given for each element (in Moves) - you have more leeway as a judge to pass the test even if there was one move that was clearly not a passing move, IF there is a move that you can justify giving a higher mark than the passing average mark. Then the test will pass. Sometimes it's a matter of thinking of the test as a whole and thinking (in the 30 seconds that you have to make your marks) "Is this a passing test" and then making your marks reflect that. If each individual move was pass or fail then I would guess that you might have to get all passes for the test to pass. Or there would be some other rule implemented that would say that you could pass with maybe one or two "failed" moves. But then... well, you can see how this could get and then you would still have some disagreements between judges (because we all have different focuses (foci?) in our skating, different experiences, different expectations - and you would still have some people who are dissatisfied or discouraged about their marks and their ability to pass or fail a test... on that day, with that panel.
So I guess I would just have to say that if you are testing it is best to have a great attitude and just love your skating and skating in general. Not everyone is going to pass every test. That is not the point. If you don.t want to test then that is okay too because there are so many other ways to enjoy skating besides testing...
Anyway, I guess I could go on and on and will continue to learn and grow through this process. I do appreciate this board and other skating-related internet boards because it gives me an idea of what people are thinking and I hope that it has made me a better judge. I would love to see the Adult testing structure change even more than it has although I kind of doubt that I will be joining any related committees anytime soon, LOL.
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This is an interesting discussion. I've failed my bronze moves twice. I'm also the first student testing adult bronze moves my coach has ever worked with. After I failed the first test (badly) she talked to the judges, and they told her they judged the test to the same standard as they'd judge a preliminary test.
The second time was interesting because one of the judges was an international judge flown in from afar. I did come much closer to passing, but he gave me considerably lower scores than the other two judges.