skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: Sk8Dreams on January 14, 2012, 08:15:30 PM
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A friend who has been considering Klingbeils on my recommendation called and made an appointment for boots, at last! Lorraine told her that they will stay open into March to be able to provide adjustments for everyone who is buying boots since the closing was announced. She also said that since it has become widely known, there have been a few offers to buy the business.
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I think it would be fantastic if the business is able to stay open, just because I think choices are a good thing. However, I voted no. Custom skates are not in my budget, and right now my stock boots are doing just fine.
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I didn't vote because I love my Risports, have no experience with Klingbeils and am not in need of new boots at this time. But, theoretically, if I were in the market for them, a new owner wouldn't put me off if the quality stayed the same.
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That depends on the new owner's qualifications and staffing. Bill Klingbeil started out making orthopedic shoes, which gave him an advantage over the competition. Don picked up a lot of his dad's knowledge - I remember him adjusting a blade and saying "My dad always said to adjust the heel setting first."
Could he really transfer a lifetime of knowledge in a short time? Maybe if Wil stayed on to help out, but if not, the new owner would have to acquire the knowledge and skills through training and experience.
Other variables (location, price, customer service) are also important.
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^^^^What Isk8NYC said ^^^^
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Depends on ...
a) cost
b) quality
Don did an amazing job making boots for us. However, the local fitter - even though considered to be one of the "best" that Klingbeil uses - didn't do anything even close to what we got from Klingbeil themselves. Don has a huge institutional memory of how to fit skates, and more to the point, how to fit Klingbeils - which is why the Don ones were far better. Someone new wouldn't have Don's knowledge, and, further, the knowledge to work with distant fitters.
Inevitably, if this business model has failed, a new owner would need to change the business model. This would mean changes to the product in some form. And that is not predictable at this point.
I simply couldn't wait for months to see if Klingbeil "new" would be as good as Klingbeil "old" and I can't wait to see if the company will continue. New skates are needed; we need to know that the skates we move to will be there over the next skating cycles. Skates are the critical piece of equipment ... and playing around with that aspect of our equipment is simply too risky. We've already moved to a new supplier of custom skates, actually, for the pair that we were planning on ordering - as we were nervous about how Klingbeil would be able to cope with the rush of orders, and we need a permanent solution (would they meet delivery deadlines? Would the quality suffer at all? What if there were issues? - now, if we had known they would stay open until March ... too bad that wasn't publicized earlier!).
Kling is a small niche company with a small geographic base of devoted followers. They haven't kept up with the times particularly; the closest to what they offer seems to be Harlicks, and even Harlick has been more uptodate with their skates (heat molding, the x-series) - plus having a more effective way of differentiating the stock skates (Kling stock skates are very bare bones) from the rest of the market. The custom skates are nice, and well made, and we've used them effectively ... but, how much of a market is there in custom skates now that stock skates are able to fit a wider range of feet than in the past and with new suppliers in the market?
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Customs are also not in our budget. If we HAD to use customs, then we would need them on the other side of the country so they can be adjusted.
But I agree - choices are good.
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Customs are also not in our budget. If we HAD to use customs, then we would need them on the other side of the country so they can be adjusted.
But I agree - choices are good.
what is amusing? and maybe speaks to anomalies in the market: my DD's stock Riedells cost within a couple of dollars as my other kid's custom Klings ...
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Inevitably, if this business model has failed, a new owner would need to change the business model. This would mean changes to the product in some form. And that is not predictable at this point.
(snip)
Kling is a small niche company with a small geographic base of devoted followers. They haven't kept up with the times particularly; the closest to what they offer seems to be Harlicks, and even Harlick has been more uptodate with their skates (heat molding, the x-series) - plus having a more effective way of differentiating the stock skates (Kling stock skates are very bare bones) from the rest of the market.
Good point about needing a new business model. Harlick has a full line of stock boots that likely support the custom side of the business. Meaning that Harlick can afford to build customs b/c they make enough money on the sale of their stock boots to keep the business profitable. I've never seen a pair of Klingbeil stock boots (by "bare bones" do you mean for beginners?). Harlick has a well-oiled distribution system with many local fitters. I don't think there is any 'Klingbeil guy' in my area. There is a very well-respected fitter who does a lot of work with Harlick and Jackson, and he can fit custom Klingbeils (he knows Don and crew) but during a visit for sharpening when I was first researching customs, I asked him some questions about Klingbeils and I remember him saying he didn't do a lot of them.
That's good to hear Klingbeil will be open until March. I need to call them on Monday b/c the new tongues they just put on aren't working out. I got rubber with lambswool center (instead of the all-lambswool ones I usually get) b/c I had heard they could alleviate tendonitis symptoms. Unfortunately, I wasn't expecting the area where the two materials meet to be so rough (glue and such, I guess) and they are rubbing uncomfortably, especially over the incision area on my left ankle. My coach does not think the problem will get better with more wear, so I am going to see (beg?) if Klingbeil can put regular lambswool tongues on, as an exchange, if I pay shipping.
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what is amusing?
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Nothing is amusing. I am not able to afford custom boots. If I had no choices, I would need the company on the other side of the country. I can't afford cross-country tickets and hotel on top of skates for a perfect fit. I'd have to opt for SPteri's instead. At least I could drive there!
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what is amusing?
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Nothing is amusing. I am not able to afford custom boots. If I had no choices, I would need the company on the other side of the country. I can't afford cross-country tickets and hotel on top of skates for a perfect fit. I'd have to opt for SPteri's instead. At least I could drive there!
it was meant as a quizzical point, that, the perception that customs are expensive, yet, kling customs ard cheaper than some stock boots ...
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Sorry -I was misunderstanding!
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I can't say enough how much I love my klings. They feel like a tennis shoe. IF the company was sold and Klings continued on, I might consider staying with them if the quality and everything else didn't change. Why fix something that isn't broke? They have been the only skates I have ever used that didn't hurt my feet. Not sure if that is contributed to the fact they are custom or just really well made. I'm thinking the first idea is likely. I am going to SP Teri custom when I need skates again and I pray they are just as comfy.
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Just made an appointment for later this month to get my boots adjusted. Have to remember to ask where they get the bagels. ;-d
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what is amusing? and maybe speaks to anomalies in the market: my DD's stock Riedells cost within a couple of dollars as my other kid's custom Klings ...
Exactly. This is why I went with Klingbeils. I could get a few extras for very little more than stock boots, and I could be sure that my various foot weirdnesses could be taken into account. (Mind you, these will be my first pair and I haven't skated on them yet--have to wait until after a Feb 4 competition.)
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Don's not leaving, by the way. Lorraine said it was a "merger" and "we're all going to be there." I just hope that quality and service are not sacrificed. It's also not so much that Klingbeils are a niche; it's more like Don hasn't kept up with modern marketing. Brands like Graf (which are the cheesiest things I've ever seen) and Jackson are made overseas; skate shops have more of an incentive to sell them because they get something like a $250 profit on each pair. With Klingbeil, they can't mark them up for such a profit, therefore small shops don't have a big incentive to sell Klingbeil, hence slower sales. Whereas a huge number of skaters in the Northeast use Klingbeil because it's easy to get to the shop, I would imagine that elsewhere, it's a little tougher. There needs to be a Facebook and Twitter presence as well as more promotion. I think there's also a growing movement in the States to buy American. He could promote the heck out of this.
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I should add that Klingbeil prices are not really much different from that of cheesy stock boots. Grafs run for about $650 for the Edmonton Special and they are pure junk. Shops sell them because they make more money on them, but skaters are being snowed. They need replacing more and the stink like crazy because they're plastic.
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Update from my Kling guy: they have struck a deal with a Manhattan shoe company, and all the equipment AND people will apparently be staying with the company. Yay!
Got try on my new boots today, briefly--no blades on them yet. What a LOVELY feeling to have enough width for the ball of my foot & toes, and the arches in the right place!
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I should add that Klingbeil prices are not really much different from that of cheesy stock boots. Grafs run for about $650 for the Edmonton Special and they are pure junk. Shops sell them because they make more money on them, but skaters are being snowed. They need replacing more and the stink like crazy because they're plastic.
Grafs are not junk, nor are Riedells, nor are Jacksons. Stock boots are actually of excellent quality in many instances, and the improvements in recent years in the quality, construction, and value for the dollar are quite marked.
Stock boots are not "plastic". They are leather; often they are leather lined, and often with the same Clarino leather that you can get with a Klingbeil. There is a plastic lining within the leather, which gives the option for heat molding. Heat molding is an effective way to fit a boot. It does not make a boot "stinky". Actually, the stinkiest boots we have in the house are Klings, custom, with Clarino linings ... made by Don himself ... and they stink because my skaters feet sweat and they are used extensively.
I could walk around my rink and find 10 to 15 skaters who will complain bitterly about how quickly their Klings break down, and how poorly they fit, and the lengthy breakin period. I could also find 10 to 15 skaters who will enthuse over their Grafs, or Riedells, or Jacksons, and how well they fit, how well they last, and how easy they were to break in ... and all of these skaters will be skating the same amount, level, etc. Then, I could find you 10 who complain about Riedell and 10 who love Kling ... every skater has their own personal preference and what works for you may be ineffective for someone else. Doesn't mean that other options are wrong at all, or that people who use them are being taken advantage of in any way.
There used to be a long of Klings around here - several of the coaches were strong proponents. They no longer are. As they explored the options in stock boots from, frankly primarily Riedell, they found that their skaters were getting better value from stock boots, and that Klingbeil stock boots, excepting for those skaters who fit the Kling stock last, were not as good. The weight of the Kling stock boot was higher; and with the ability to heat mold, order split widths, and the variety of options available, skaters who were using "custom" no longer needed them. Plus, the speed of boot replacement ... a skater who needed new skates could get them immediately or in a few days, and breakin was minimal due to the heat molding etc. So, they moved existing skaters and newly developing skaters out of Klings and into Riedell, or Jacksons, etc.
IF my skater was able to fit a stock boot, I would have switched to Riedell for the convenience factor long ago. However, in terms of customs, Kling has an excellent product and a good reputation, which is why we used them. My other two skaters both wear Riedells, and they are very good quality boots, have precisely the same features as custom Klings, and, like the other skaters who use them, including our National level freeskaters and dancers, they are very effective and have no problems with lack of longevity.
I appreciate your enthusiasm for Kling, and I agree that Don et al are wonderful. However, there are many many many options out there for skaters ... and they too are effective and of more than acceptable quality.
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I voted "no", but it needs an explanation.
It's like finding a mechanic you trust. Then he sells the business to someone with whom he has never worked before. The new mechanic might be good; he might not. in time, he might become good. When he does, he might be worth going to.
Plus I don't know anything about the new owner yet. Maybe the new owner has been working in the shop the past 10 years, has gradually taken over the manufacture of the boots. The same way Don took over from Bill. In which case, the answer could well be "yes".
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Query - I think you may have missed the point that Don isn't going anywhere but staying with the business, he isn't turning it over to someone else. From what I have heard from him and from Lorraine, the new part owner thinks Don has a fantastic product that has not been marketed well. I agree. The new owner is concerned with the selling of the product while leaving everyone and everything associated with making the product in place. I like it a lot. Having gone from Riedells to Klings, I wouldn't give them up for the world.
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Precisely. Apparently Kling entered into a marketing agreement with some company several years back. . . obviously THAT was a bust.
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Nothing we have seen tells us how big a roll Don will continue to play, in the short or long term.
Wait and see.
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On the contrary - several people have stated that they have discussed his role, and the roles of his staffers, with Don himself and other key Klingbeil players. I know that investment in equipment and promotion are definitely on the table as mandatory, from the buyer's side. I have confidence that the new partnership will help the brand in the long run, but there will be growing pains in the short term. I think the custom/orthopedic shoe experience will bring new technology and knowledge to the process. Bill Klingbeil was a custom, orthopedic shoe maker originally before branching out into figure skates.
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….Well... like any other product once you get used to it ....it is hard to change - unless of course it is not meeting your needs. My two daughters are figure skaters and somewhere along the way their coaches recommended we look at Klingbeil – pretty much a new set of boots every year since then. For sure the girls love their boots and were pretty emotional when they heard Don was closing... (I'm sure we would have found another brand that they liked )
Anyway...I try to support local business (buy USA) even if it costs more and so supporting Don (Klingbeil) was natural for me. For the same reason Harlick would also be a good choice.
I've met Don ….got the royal tour of his shop and left with a lasting positive impression - real old school leather traditions at work. That I am aware of Klingbeil is one of very few companies making an all leather – hand crafted, 100% made in the USA product. The problem is that Klingbeil has no presence. They have a high end competitive product but like others have said – minimal distribution.....they have to broaden their product line (get into the low end) find a way into more pro shops, arena's, sports stores and events. Marketing is one thing but sales is what puts $$ to the bottom line.
God Luck Don and Klingbeil – I hope you make it and I hope more skaters will consider buying your made in the USA products !!!
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I see online progress being made!
Facebook and Twitter accounts were set up and are being used.
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Klingbeilskatingboots
Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/Klingbeilskates (https://twitter.com/#!/Klingbeilskates)
Their website (http://www.klingbeilskatingboots.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=home) has been revised with the new location information and an online appointment scheduler!
247 West 38th Street • 3rd Floor (Between 7-8th Ave.) • New York, NY 10018
info@klingbeilskatingboots.com
Schedule an Appointment: https://klingbeil.acuityscheduling.com/schedule.php
Haven't noticed any promotion or advertising yet, but was a recent change.
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I tried out the calendar and found you can book a fitting with Don or Will, and they now are open for fittings later, but still only Thu, Fri, and Sat. I also noticed there are no prices anywhere, and no phone number.
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The new web page looks great. I love the old video with Bill -- so glad they kept that. I agree, the Facebook stuff will help awareness.
If you click the link at the top of the home page an order form opens. The form has complete contact info, including phone & fax numbers. It also lists the price for custom boots as $649.00.
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Thanks, I didn't see that. I did click on the "Download order form" on the Custom Skating Boots page, and it has the old info and no price. I see they are now charging extra for extras. Oh, well, I guess it had to happen.
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Thanks, I didn't see that. I did click on the "Download order form" on the Custom Skating Boots page, and it has the old info and no price. I see they are now charging extra for extras. Oh, well, I guess it had to happen.
Our local "dealer" for Kling always did charge extra for extras on custom ... every tweak was a bump in the price ... which was why we were so much happier going to NYC. Dropped our bill by over $200, paid for part of a nice vacation ... It could also be part of their pricing issues, if other outside dealers were charging that much in $$$ the skates would certainly not be competitive.
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Thanks, I didn't see that. I did click on the "Download order form" on the Custom Skating Boots page, and it has the old info and no price. I see they are now charging extra for extras. Oh, well, I guess it had to happen.
It's a link at the very top of the page that goes to a web form, not the PDF.
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They charged extra for extras when I got my current skates, which was 6 years ago. Back then, the base price was $545. I believe I paid $65 for the extras - $30 for lambswool tongues, $20 for flex notches, and $15 for a rolled top. At some point, I guess they decided to raise the price but then include extras again (I think they started out including extras for free, right?). I think $649 was the all-inclusive price when I called them in Dec? So not only will I pay more, the extras will cost more than they did, so my total charge would be $739, plus $20 for shipping. So instead of paying $630 total like last time, I'll now pay $760. Grrr. I'm thrilled Klingbeil is still in business, but at those prices, it's going to be harder for potential customers to justify the purchase.....even Harlick customs are cheaper than that.
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They charged extra for extras when I got my current skates, which was 6 years ago. Back then, the base price was $545. I believe I paid $65 for the extras - $30 for lambswool tongues, $20 for flex notches, and $15 for a rolled top. At some point, I guess they decided to raise the price but then include extras again (I think they started out including extras for free, right?). I think $649 was the all-inclusive price when I called them in Dec? So not only will I pay more, the extras will cost more than they did, so my total charge would be $739, plus $20 for shipping. So instead of paying $630 total like last time, I'll now pay $760. Grrr. I'm thrilled Klingbeil is still in business, but at those prices, it's going to be harder for potential customers to justify the purchase.....even Harlick customs are cheaper than that.
Harlick just changed their pricing as of March 1st, and they're production time is longer. Don't know if there is a connection - ?
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It's a link at the very top of the page that goes to a web form, not the PDF.
REALLY??? sarahspins - when I began with "Thanks.." that indicated that I had found the correct link as instructed. The rest was just explanation of how I had missed it.
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Strange. I got my last pair about 4 years ago. They have the rolled top and flex notch at no additional charge. Maybe it was part of the professional discount.
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REALLY??? sarahspins - when I began with "Thanks.." that indicated that I had found the correct link as instructed. The rest was just explanation of how I had missed it.
Ummk, I really just mentioned it for anyone else who wasn't seeing it....
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Ummk, I really just mentioned it for anyone else who wasn't seeing it....
And that was very helpful. Thank you!
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I agree, the order form isn't obvious; it looks just like a "rim" at the top of the page, and I only found it as I was looking for it. I'm also a bit disappointed ... some features that I remember are missing, and certainly some of the tongue options (including the one we had).
They also need to tweak it ... in one of the drop lists for "priced" options like the rolltop, you can't select multiple options. We used more than one of these, which means that the option would need to be typed into the "notes" box, and then hope that it would be seen.
It is a step forward, but, they need to be more focussed on making things right at launch. This form will likely mean that someone will need to phone them to followup, which defeats the whole purpose; the other forms are still there with no explanation; etc.
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I'm also a bit disappointed ... some features that I remember are missing, and certainly some of the tongue options (including the one we had).
My bet is that they will still do any options that you request. Don replaced the tongues on my first pair of customs with the stock tongue, because it put less pressure on a nerve that ran close to the top of my foot. I think tweaks will be forthcoming.
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I think they would do any feature. The tongues that I have were never listed on any form. I assumed Klingbeil has been charging for some options for awhile. The boots I bought at the PSA conference in 2008 had all options at no additional charge for the conference special in addition to their coaches discount and the pair I bought last summer had charges for the roll top and scallop notch.
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Saw this article today:
http://news.yahoo.com/klingbeil-skates-now-located-manhattan-102223844.html
Website URL changed, too: http://www.klingbeilusa.com/
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Did you notice the name of the PR person who posted the article? Richie Perna.
Wonder if he's connected to Nick Perna.
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Richie Perna is associated with Klingbeil, I guess as a result of the sale/merger/whatever.
I had sent an email about something on the Klingbeil website and he's the person who responded.
I noticed the last name, but I don't know if Richie is related to Nick Perna. I've met Nick Perna in person, but not Richie.
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Nick Perna is a figure skating god.