Skate tongue? Leather options? Let's discuss boots while I ponder order options

[AlbaNY]

Maybe I can get some discussion going?  Both for my questions about a boot order and for fun in general too regarding colour and fancy options you might select.

First of all:  I'd love any input on skate tongues you all can come up with, please!  I'm curious about leather lined foam and full lambswool.
If anyone has or can find photos of these different types with some wear or has any experience I'd love more information.  I'm torn between the options when ordering skates. 

Right now I have unlined foam.  I do not care for how it can tear a bit, but it has been perfectly comfortable so far. 
This made me consider the lined version anticipating better durability, but I saw a brand new pair (online) with this option and did not think it looked as well finished or comfortable as I had imagined.  Brand new skates all generally look less comfortable however, and I suppose I shouldn't be so picky about the stitching, (but I'm detail oriented and a seamstress so...) 

Lambswool is intriguing, but I can't find many photos or reports.  The lambswool section of a 50/50 tongue I have on spares seems nice though.  I don't like the 50/50 since it doesn't solve the tearing foam edge situation. 

I confirmed that my skates are the double duo bond (highest strength) 3 layer construction that I suspected!  Oh my!  When I tried less stiff boots recently I did not like it and plan to get the same, but other things I am thinking to opt for now are a double wedge scallop, thinsulate layer, a bit of glitter, and the other big question: leather type and colour.

I've mostly talked myself into pebble white after an initial idea of black or medium grey suede.   
I welcome opinions and photos of white pebble if anyone has that or any other suggestion.  (White suede sounds like a nightmare, because I picture myself doing a lunge or wiping out on someone's marker lines my first time out, lol.)  I figure I better stick with the "traditional" white but thought it would be nice to do something other than the usual smooth finish at least if I'm going all out and getting customs.  Has anyone heard of any other leather finish to look into?

Some coaches I see around here have blue, purple, or pink suede.     Coach Awesome had black suede SP Terries, and I liked the patina.  Other than that I've seen the usual smooth black, white, and tan.  Harlick has some pretty interesting leathers and designs, but I'm not going bold.   

[FigureSpins]

I've had the soft foam and the smooth foam tongues in various skates over the years.  I think the soft foam, which looks like expanded bubbles, was the more comfortable.  Both were fine.  I've never had all-leather or lambswool. However, Klingbeil used to provide two lambswool pads for the break-in period.  (Really cute - heart-shaped, about 5")  They felt really good, better than the bunga sleeves or the makeup sponges many people use.  YMMV

I'm pretty traditional about skate color - white is the easiest for me, so that's what I use.  I had a few pair of tan boots, but it was a PITA to get matching laces - I ended up dyeing white ones myself.  If you like bright or colored laces, that's not a problem. 

Several of my male skaters chose suede finish skates and they really looked nice because it hid scuffs and dirt.  I love the look of black uppers with brown heels/soles.

Some skating friends have opted for the decorative inserts or they've added their own embellishments to their skates.  It looks okay - the most-interesting one is a woman who has a flower on her boot ankle.  It matches her tattoo in the same spot on her ankle.    

Decorations are not my style; I just want skates that fit right, provide the right support and last a little while. 

[Bill_S]

I think the soft foam, which looks like expanded bubbles, was the more comfortable

Those two are the only types that I've skated in for any length of time, and I'd agree that the soft foam (looking like expanded bubbles) worked better for me. I wonder what the fabric-covered padding in some newer Riedell skates would be like long-term?

To the OP - for grins, check out these Riedell leather customization options...

https://www.ice.riedellskates.com/custom-skates

[Query]

As a seamstress, can you sew and/or glue in different tongue options to your current skates, to try for feel? Maybe with a sewing awl?

I tried on boots that had very comfortable plus luxurious pressure moldable foam tongues, and loved the feel. But most foams break down over time, and might eventually create lace bite - unless you replace them. Good leather can be very durable, if it fits you well (to an extent, it can be spot heat molded), but I'm not sure it will feel as good as a pressure moldable foam.

Optimal material also depends on how much your feet sweat. Closed cell foams don't breath.

Suede shoes or boots often don't quite match and are not completely uniform in color. Moisture and other things can change their color, in spots, and it is harder to clean. I just bought new walking boots. They only ones I found which fit well were dark red suede, and the two boots were a different color shade, which could also be true for your skates. I sprayed them with a silicone waterproofing agent, so they won't leak (not a problem for most skates). It darkened them from red to brown, and now they match, though they they can't breath. (My feet don't sweat much.)

I like the idea that suede hides scuffs. So I would stop using boot covers. But does anyone know if suede is less durable over the long term?

Color is obviously individual choice. Unless you are doing team skating (e.g., with an ice dance or pairs partner, or in a Synchro or production team). Would a bright pure color would clash with clothing/costume and lace colors you like, and do you care?

But honestly, I think good full custom fit boots, fit by the best fitter you can find, like one of the manufacturer's fitters or one they recommend, are more important to your health and performance than color, and would be a better use of your money, if that the choice. Many people find that full custom fit boots work a lot better for them.

[AlbaNY]

Ooh!  Thank you for all the answers!   

I don't have time now to properly respond, but I'm going to when I can. 

[tstop4me]

One coach I know has custom Harlicks in blue suede. I call them her Elvis boots.

I have stock men's Jackson Elites in black suede; purchased in late 2014.  I was first hesitant about buying them; but the women's came only in smooth white, and the men's came only in black suede.  I called Jackson to voice my concerns over the longevity of suede.  They told me not to worry:  their suede is actually stronger than their smooth; it's all in the processing.  Since leathers and processing vary with the manufacturer, I wouldn't make any generalization:  check with your particular manufacturer.

With regard to color irregularities, I've had no issues with my boots.  But then again maybe black is black.  My wife and daughter have had suede shoes and boots (as well as handbags, belts, and other items) of various colors, however, and have had no issues with color irregularities ... and they are very picky (they also tend to buy higher-end items).  So again, I don't think you should generalize from Query's experiences:  the devil is in the manufacturing details.

As for my Jackson's, I'm glad I did end up with the suede.  One initial advantage with a suede tongue is that the nap holds the laces in place better.  With repeated lacing and unlacing, however, the nap starts to wear out.  After ~3 yrs of skating (~5 times/week, nearly year round), though, most of the nap was gone from the tongue.

As for the rest of the boot, the suede has been remarkably resistant to scuffs, scrapes, and cuts.  After all these years, they are still solidly black; no areas of exposed bare leather as in my previous smooth leather boots (Riedells).  By now, most of the nap is gone.  I haven't used any suede-specific dyes, polish, or brushes, though, to maintain the finish.  Every 3 months, I daub on liquid silicone waterproofer, that's it (I like to avoid aerosol sprays).

[AlbaNY]

Thank you for the input, FigureSpins. 

Mine now have smooth foam, but the spare with 50/50 have what you describe.  That's neat about the Klingbeil break-in inserts.  I could cut some shearling for that, easy! 
A Harlick representative responded to me saying that for the qualities I am seeking they suggest the leather lined foam.  (I want the squishing and the tongue shape to be retained as long as possible if I can describe it that way... trying to think of the best way and can't right now  .)

I'm with you, I love black suede with brown soles, but I'm also 99% on white and wouldn't want to do suede in white.  Bummer since it is nice.  With smooth leather I like them to look "well loved" or new, but the period between brand new and well loved is awkward.   
Those decorations are pretty but totally aren't for me skating.  Cute about the matching tattoo! 
I am going for some glitter in the glaze, but that's as far as I'll go.   
I find I like the look of white skates with black legging over the heel, so I'm probably content with white now?  Otherwise white makes the leg look more stubby and short to me than nice black.   


I'll try to respond to everyone tonight but may run out of time to.  It's not personal! 

[AlbaNY]

Bill, wow!  Those show personality!   
I'm not that bold but could be if I had the funds for several pairs.  Hah!  I like the oil slick kind of finish but maybe in another colour way.

I think the coaches with bold coloured suede have custom Reidells.  The purple are for sure anyway.

[AlbaNY]

Query, that's not a bad idea to try different tongues.  I could probably try that with my back up pair at least, but I am really overextended with time and projects right now, and I want the order to happen soon. 

Oh boy, I sweat with the foam.
 
As for suede, Coach Awesome's pair were 20 years old and quite worn but looked far better than some smooth finish skates I've seen that are peeling.  I wish I could commit to suede, but then I'd have to choose non-white after talking myself into white.  Hmmm.   
I wear black bottoms for skating, so black would look great, I thought, but then I found I kind of like the black over the heel legging look with white quite a lot and decided to keep it classic.  It would so do black if it wasn't such a big financial commitment.
I would expect due to the small size of boots and custom nature they likely can use the same hide for both boots or two hides if grain properties limit.  Mass produced items are a different beast for that.

I'm getting fully custom and have a fitting with their recommended guy next Wednesday.  Coach Cheerful mentioned today that the fitter wouldn't be ordering the same double duo bond three layer construction "that's for people doing quads" (omg, I've skated in Harlick's stiffest option since before getting out of basic 3  ,) but when I pointed out I was entirely used to that having been in them since the beginning and hated the backup pair's lack of stiffness she kind of nodded and didn't say not to go for that again.  I hate change and like what I have now...  They'd been used for a year though, so already broken in...  uhh...    I need to talk to her again, but I think she was okay with it? 

[Query]

I hope you your new boots.

[AlbaNY]

I hope you your new boots.

Thank you!  Me too!  Too bad it'll be about a year to find out 

Tstop4me, I agree that suede holds up so nicely.  Shoot.  This is making me really think again about it and if so what colour.   
I wonder if they have a reeallllllly pale grey, kind of like marble, that would look similar to white but not get dingy or stick out too much as not the usual?  Greys are my favourite colour ever to wear...

[supersharp]

Grey suede sounds lovely!

[AlbaNY]

Grey suede sounds lovely!

I agree!  I'd really like that after pondering a while, but unfortunately they got back to me saying grey is hard to source and gave me no option for it. 
I am waiting for swatches of the white pebble, white suede that they say is grey-ish, and some of their other lighter suedes that they offered to send.  I'd select pale grey in a heartbeat at this point but expect I may end up going for the white and hope it doesn't look dirty all the time.  (Or get bright marker spots!)
 
Judging by Instagram videos and photos "bamboo" suede may be a contender too if that is one they send (although I can't believe I'm considering anything on the tan spectrum since I've always avoided browns.)  That one seems to have a grey-ish cast to it though. 
If I do white suede I am thinking to ask for a contrast back stay in the bamboo shade just to make things a little fancier.  I think that could look pretty nice and hopefully not weird?  Just the vertical strip on the heel. 
I need to find my markers and do a rendering.   

In looking at some video from yesterday I noticed that my skates are as white as the ice whereas Ice Flies, Pianos, and the skates of a couple friends have a very yellow cast that I'd like to avoid now that it's on my radar.  Silly details, but hey...   

If I end up with a pale tan I'm afraid I'd feel like an imposter.  Aren't those meant for coaches, show skaters, and professionals?   

Oh, since I'm posting... Coach Cheerful and I discussed it, and she okayed me getting their stiffest construction again.  Break-in will be something else, I'm afraid, but... I'll get through it? 

[supersharp]

The white pebble is pretty, I have seen multiple pairs of white pebble boots and it holds up well. 

Just for your consideration...the downside of suede is that you get wear spots if you do a lot of lunges or slides.  I had been thinking tan suede but ended up getting tan pebble and it is very forgiving.  I wear off the finish on the same spots over and over and I just keep an eye on it and recoat those areas periodically.  The pebble texture is smoothed out a bit in those areas, but unless you inspect them closely, you would never know they have had extra wear there.

Harlick has two colors of tan--light and "holiday tan".  I chose the lighter tan pebbled leather.  Most show skaters or former show skaters choose the holiday tan because it is pretty standard for shows.  The plus for the holiday tan is that you can find skate tape that is a near match, but I just like the lighter tan color better. The design on the side of my boots is hidden by my legwarmers a lot of the time, but it's there for me to enjoy.  If I need the boots to look plain, I can always wear OTB tights (ugh) or boot covers.

Alba, I would say you are at a point where you are buying very nice boots that you will get rebuilt a few times and your skating is on a great trajectory.  Pick a color you like and you won't regret it.  You skate well enough now that you can wear whatever color boots you want without having to feel self-conscious about it.

[FigureSpins]

If I end up with a pale tan I'm afraid I'd feel like an imposter.  Aren't those meant for coaches, show skaters, and professionals?   

Funny story: I used to coach at a rink where most of the coaches wore tan skates.  Most of them had all been performers in ice shows and that's the go-to color because it can be hidden with covers and tape, etc for costuming purposes.  So, to fit in, I bought a pair of tan boots.  The tan laces were a pita to match - I ended up buying white ones and dyeing them with a concoction of coffee, tea and a little blue food dye to get the right shade.

Then, I started coaching at a new rink.  The rental skates were tan and the other coaches wore white or black skates.  YMMV

[Query]

BTW, many people love boot fits that allow sufficient space behind and in front of the ankle they don't have to bend the boot much, so somewhat stiff boots aren't a problem. I don't know enough about Jackson boot customization to know if you can get that.

I'm curious: does anyone know if brightly colored boots show through light colored boot covers or over-the-boot tights?

[supersharp]

I don't know about brightly-colored boots, but white boots are completely hidden by the basic black lycra boot covers.  I've used them on numerous occasions while posing as a gentleman for show programs. 

[AlbaNY]

I really appreciate all the comments and discussion!  I think it would be fun to post photos of our skates and tell how old they are to get even more chat going if anyone else thinks that would be fun?

The fitting was yesterday, and I had everything set for the order except the final outer material selection.  Today the swatches arrived!  So exciting!

I'm going with the crazy stiffness despite the fitter's reservations (he only did one pair that stiff ever, and if I recall correctly the skater ultimately had it re-worked to be less stiff?)  I made it through the initial struggle with my current pair, and I think the current feel is worth it... I may regret that, hahaha.  Coach Cheerful thinks I can manage, and suede takes the stiffness down a level from what I have with elk leather now.

I went for the leather lined tongue also although it will make the break in even more tough.  He had a pair of Risports with that on display, and it was too lovely not to choose.  The break in is a temporary struggle for what I hope is years of loveliness after.  The fitter said I'll lose a month of skating to the break in, and I can live with that.

So, without the swatches and after a lot of looking online I had decided to go for the white suede with contrast back stay.  Today with the swatches this decision became very difficult!  I liked the white suede swatch very much, but the white pebble calf was far nicer than I expected too.  I found that I did not like bamboo suede quite as much as in photos, but the fried rice suede is very pretty pale tan.  Oh, and cameo suede, which I liked in photos of skates, is not a colour I'd ever consider seeing it in person.  It reminds me of silly putty.   
But...  There was a surprise included.  They found a pale grey suede after all, and I adore it!  I still love the white, but I simply have to go for the grey now that it is available and clearly fated.     For prettiness I'm going to do white suede back stay contrast since that idea has stuck with me, along with brass eyelets and such, some crystals along the eyelets, and I guess a light scatter of gold or champagne glitter in the glaze. 

(As for blades I'm not sure about staying with my nice and cheap Ultima Aspires.  I'll figure that out with Coach Cheerful in about a year.  The fitter said I might want to upgrade to Pattern 99 at some point.)

Now I hurry up and wait!   

[Bill_S]

Sounds like a fun adventure! I'm happy that you found a pale gray suede to set your custom skates apart from others.

BTW, I love Pattern 99s, but they will require time to adapt to them after using your Aspires. If it were me, I'd get the Pattern 99 now before  your sole becomes partially "swiss-cheesed" with different mounting holes for the different blades, and you can get to know them while you adapt to the new boots. YMMV, etc.

[Loops]

I agree, this sounds like fun! I have never seen white suede skates, and am totally curious.  Which brand are you going with? I had a good time getting my first custom pair a few years ago.  Something to think about- knee bend is super important and really makes a huge difference in skating.  I know you're used to a certain stiffness, and I too am used to overbooting, but it really affects knee-bend, which means everything from spin entries to jumps, to all the various turns, along with your edge quality.  As an adult skater, I have come to believe in *slightly* underbooting. When I did my customs, I went with (what I thought at the time was) a lower stiffness than I was used too.  My skate tech was on board.  It turns out to be too stiff.  I have never laced the top hook on my boots, and have struggled with the stiffness for the past 6 years.  If the day ever comes that I replace these boots, I plan to go down a level.

Details if you're interested- I had been in the Risport Dance- stiffness of 65.  I loved the low back, but hated the low sides. The 65 in Risport dance was soft.  I got Jackson customs, and went with the 4 hook (freestyle) front, and a dance backstay.  I stuck with the 65 since we all thought the higher sides would compensate for the lack of stiffness, and went with a moderately stiff tongue.  Plus that's what the Premier is and when I tried it on it had seemed stiff, but break-in-able. (I'm 5"8" and no longer jumping).  I've always been hard on my skates and broken things in easily.  If I ever replace these, I will get everything exactly the same again, but have a long talk with the Jackson people about stiffness.  I tried the old Finesse once upon a time, which were entry level dance boots at 45.  I was worried about creasing them in the shop.  But now I'm thinking with the 4-hook model it might be OK.  But that will be managed with the people at Jackson. 

Ultimately, I would hate for you to spend bank on an awesome pair of skates and have them be so stiff they impede your progress. You're doing so well, but I think the boots were new to you, so already broken in by a previous skater, no?  Customs are expensive, but oh-so-worth it.  And while you want them to last, presumably this won't be your last pair, right?

[tstop4me]

Details if you're interested- I had been in the Risport Dance- stiffness of 65.  I loved the low back, but hated the low sides. The 65 in Risport dance was soft.  I got Jackson customs, and went with the 4 hook (freestyle) front, and a dance backstay.  I stuck with the 65 since we all thought the higher sides would compensate for the lack of stiffness, and went with a moderately stiff tongue.  Plus that's what the Premier is and when I tried it on it had seemed stiff, but break-in-able. (I'm 5"8" and no longer jumping).  I've always been hard on my skates and broken things in easily.  If I ever replace these, I will get everything exactly the same again, but have a long talk with the Jackson people about stiffness.  I tried the old Finesse once upon a time, which were entry level dance boots at 45.  I was worried about creasing them in the shop.  But now I'm thinking with the 4-hook model it might be OK.  But that will be managed with the people at Jackson. 

We've been round the block on this issue many times.  There is no industry standard for stiffness.  So a Risport 65 is not necessarily equal to a Jackson 65.  I couldn't even find any information on how boot stiffness is measured.  I also sent email to a couple of boot companies, and got no replies.  E.g., even within a single manufacturer, what is the difference between a 40, 60, 80, and 100?

[AlbaNY]

Bill, thanks!  That is a good point about switching sooner.  I'm going to ask Coach Cheerful her opinion of when would be okay although I don't look forward to the price tag on this change.  Also, I hate change and worry about adapting.  Ugh.  I just committed to a completion in January too.   

Loops, I am getting Harlicks since that is what I already have thanks to eBay.   
That's a sobering bit of input on stiffness.  I of course get told to have more knee(ankle) bend sometimes but did manage to get these boots bending more and more and actually have kind of missed the stiffness when the tongue or something became more... forgiving to knee bend fairly recently.  Hmm.  The nice thing is that it will only cost me a bit more time if I want to downgrade the stiffness, the fitter said, because they can definitely be sent back to reduce it if I've made a mistake. 

I do appreciate the details!  I want photos too from people if possible.  This is fun.   

Tstop, it sure would be nice if all the technical details would be made available in a consistent way, wouldn't it.

I'm going to post some photos of my current skates and the swatches soon.  Hopefully tonight.  The grey reads much darker in photos though, it looks in person like the white looks in photos.  The white would be gorgeous, and so would pebble, but I cannot turn down the chance for grey.   

[Loops]

We've been round the block on this issue many times.  There is no industry standard for stiffness.  So a Risport 65 is not necessarily equal to a Jackson 65.  I couldn't even find any information on how boot stiffness is measured.  I also sent email to a couple of boot companies, and got no replies.  E.g., even within a single manufacturer, what is the difference between a 40, 60, 80, and 100?

Yup.  I'm one of those who's contributed to the discussions based on this experience.  You live and learn. Plus, it wasn't my point to start a discussion on stiffness ratings.

[tstop4me]

Bill, thanks!  That is a good point about switching sooner.  I'm going to ask Coach Cheerful her opinion of when would be okay although I don't look forward to the price tag on this change. 

One word of caution.  If you switch to P99 on your current boots, I assume you plan to move the P99 to your new boots (rather than buying a second P99 for the new boots).  Is that correct ?  If so, you run the risk that the size of the blades fitted for your current boots might not be the right size for your new boots (particularly since your current boots were used boots, if I understand your situation correctly).

[AlbaNY]

One word of caution.  If you switch to P99 on your current boots, I assume you plan to move the P99 to your new boots (rather than buying a second P99 for the new boots).  Is that correct ?  If so, you run the risk that the size of the blades fitted for your current boots might not be the right size for your new boots (particularly since your current boots were used boots, if I understand your situation correctly).

Ugh, that is definitely a consideration since my pair are supposed to be made for size seven now, and I measured size 6 1/2 and 6 3/4 in the fitting.  My blades are 9 3/4" and reach the very ends of the soles already, so I suppose I will need shorter.