skatingforums
On the Ice => Sitting on the Boards Rink Side => Topic started by: twokidsskatemom on August 03, 2011, 01:45:12 AM
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Any ideas for level 2 or 3 solo spins for someone that isnt super flexible?My DD last comp had 10 juv girls and 9 of them had that Bielmen not my DD!!..Juv has one solo spin and one combo. Combo is fine, but would love some ideas!
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Can't you increase the level by holding the position for 8+ revs?
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Cross foot, sideways leaning, pancake, broken leg, shotgun, or a difficult entry (can she do a death drop?).
My kids can't do a Biellmann because they aren't flexible "that way" although my DD's coach is working towards her being able to do it over the long term, however, a pancake spin is achievable as they ARE flexible "that way" and it brings them up a level.
Because of the "one use of a feature" rule, it's getting harder to get the levels on the spins. What helped us in being creative was to go on YouTube and look for Stephane Lambiel and Jeff Buttle, and to use their spin variants. Some of Stephane's spins are quite achievable if you watch them and break them down, and they look very impressive.
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Any ideas for level 2 or 3 solo spins for someone that isnt super flexible?My DD last comp had 10 juv girls and 9 of them had that Bellman.. not my DD!!..Juv has one solo spin and one combo. Combo is fine, but would love some ideas!
My dd isn't good at layback or bielmann yet either. She does a back camel, back pancake, and 'butt' spin for 8 revolutions (she is bent over holding her ankle-- I have no idea what it is really called)
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I call it a "Butt Spin" too, lol. The PC name is "A-Frame Spin."
Can't you increase the level by holding the position for 8+ revs?
Yes, but there are restrictions on the 8-revolution bullet/feature as of 2011-2012:
8) At least 8 rev. without changes in pos./variation, foot or edge (camel, difficult sit, layback, difficult upright), counts once per spin
http://www.usfsa.org/Content/2011-12%20Levels%20of%20Difficulty%20with%20Element%20Codes%20-%20Singles.pdf
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Cross foot, sideways leaning, pancake, broken leg, shotgun, or a difficult entry (can she do a death drop?).
My kids can't do a Biellmann because they aren't flexible "that way" although my DD's coach is working towards her being able to do it over the long term, however, a pancake spin is achievable as they ARE flexible "that way" and it brings them up a level.
Because of the "one use of a feature" rule, it's getting harder to get the levels on the spins. What helped us in being creative was to go on YouTube and look for Stephane Lambiel and Jeff Buttle, and to use their spin variants. Some of Stephane's spins are quite achievable if you watch them and break them down, and they look very impressive.
Thanks for the youtube suggestion! She has a good pancake/clam which is part of her combo. Her solo was layback.haircutter but then it got changed to a fly camel. She used to have an ok grab after her camel but she hasn't done it in awhile,and it needs at least one other feature. Thanks for the idea!!
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My dd isn't good at layback or bielmann yet either. She does a back camel, back pancake, and 'butt' spin for 8 revolutions (she is bent over holding her ankle-- I have no idea what it is really called)
That is her combo right? I'm looking for the solo spin suggestions!
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I call it a "Butt Spin" too, lol. The PC name is "A-Frame Spin."
Good to know. I thought "butt spin" is the alternate ending of a sit spin, with the skater's butt actually on the ice for a few revolutions. (popular among low level skaters at an ice show last year)
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That is her combo right? I'm looking for the solo spin suggestions!
Oh yeah, sorry duh... Her solo is a broken leg (from a fly) and a tuck
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Good to know. I thought "butt spin" is the alternate ending of a sit spin, with the skater's butt actually on the ice for a few revolutions. (popular among low level skaters at an ice show last year)
Oh, good to know, and I am glad you know what I am talking about!!
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Oh, good to know, and I am glad you know what I am talking about!!
The "A-Frame" is considered to be an upright spin, thus, it is simply a difficult variation on an upright spin. Emanuel Sandhu used to do a beautiful one. For kids with more than two spins in their programs, it adds another "variant" the upright position, as each "feature" only gets used once as count towards a level. Frankly, I don't like it - and neither do my kids, and they have resisted pressure to do it - and I have heard (more than) a few judges indicate that they find it unattractive, although they do mark it down for the bullet.
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A frame (butt spin, aka "bar stool") is a difficult variation of an upright spin (and imho very unattractive). For all spins (other than basic upright) you can hold them for 8. For a sit spin, you can tuck, pancake, cannonball, broken leg, twist, or change the edge. For a camel, you can catch, reverse catch, layover, or change the edge. For laybacks, you can twist, haircutter, and Bielman.
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A frame (butt spin, aka "bar stool") is a difficult variation of an upright spin (and imho very unattractive). For all spins (other than basic upright) you can hold them for 8. For a sit spin, you can tuck, pancake, cannonball, broken leg, twist, or change the edge. For a camel, you can catch, reverse catch, layover, or change the edge. For laybacks, you can twist, haircutter, and Bielman.
Thank you !!!!!!
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If she doesn't already use a back entry, she could do a back sit held for eight with maybe a back tuck or a cannonball or a pancake and that would be a 3. If she already has a back entry it could start with a death drop and hold for 8 then a difficult variation and she would have a three as well.
For a flying camel, I believe the fly doesnt count as a difficult variation so she could hold for eight and then do a doughnut to a pulled up position and that would be a three. She could also do a layover.
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If she doesn't already use a back entry, she could do a back sit held for eight with maybe a back tuck or a cannonball or a pancake and that would be a 3. If she already has a back entry it could start with a death drop and hold for 8 then a difficult variation and she would have a three as well.
For a flying camel, I believe the fly doesnt count as a difficult variation so she could hold for eight and then do a doughnut to a pulled up position and that would be a three. She could also do a layover.
Thanks for the suggestions!The coach we work with here doesnt know enough about IJS to know what spins get the most points.
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If she doesn't already use a back entry, she could do a back sit held for eight with maybe a back tuck or a cannonball or a pancake and that would be a 3. If she already has a back entry it could start with a death drop and hold for 8 then a difficult variation and she would have a three as well.
As of this year, hold for 8 is only a feature for sit if it is in a difficult variation. So she would have to go immediately into the cannonball/pancake/etc. and then hold that for 8 to get a level 3.
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As of this year, hold for 8 is only a feature for sit if it is in a difficult variation. So she would have to go immediately into the cannonball/pancake/etc. and then hold that for 8 to get a level 3.
And I recently saw a number of shocked coaches/skaters who were used to pulling L3/L4 spins and had them called as L1 or at best L2 as a result of this and the other changes. Step sequences are also far more difficult to get "levels" on this year.
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This is from the most recent ISU communication:
IV. LEVELS OF DIFFICULTY, SINGLE SKATING
Number of features for Levels: 2 for Level 2, 3 for Level 3, 4 for Level 4
All Spins
1) A difficult variation in a basic or (for spin combinations only) in an intermediate position
2) Another difficult variation in a basic position which must be significantly different from
the first one and:
● spin in one position with change of foot – on different foot than the first one
● spin combination without change of foot – in different position than the first one
● spin combination with change of foot – on different foot and in different position than the
first one
3) Change of foot executed by jump
4) Backward entrance/Difficult variation of flying entrance/Landing on the same foot as
take-off or changing foot on landing in a Flying Sit Spin
5) Clear change of edge in sit (only from backward inside to forward outside), camel,
Layback and Biellmann position
6) All 3 basic positions on both feet
7) Both directions immediately following each other in sit or camel spin
8) At least 8 rev. without changes in pos./variation, foot or edge (camel, difficult sit, layback,
difficult upright), counts once per spin
Additional features for the Layback spin:
9) One clear change of position backwards-sideways or reverse, at least 3 rev. in each
position (counts also if the Layback spin is a part of any other spin)
10) Biellmann position after Layback spin (SP – after 8 revolutions in layback spin)
Backward and flying entry, change of edge and any type of difficult spin variation count as
features that can increase the Level only once per program (in the first spin they are
attempted).
For Spin Combinations with change of foot all 3 basic positions are mandatory for
Levels 2 – 4 in both Short Program and Free Skating.
For Spins with change of foot at least one basic position on each foot is mandatory for
Levels 2 – 4 in Free Skating. In case this requirement is not fulfilled in Short Program,
the spin will have no Level and consequently no value.
In any spin with change of foot the maximum number of features attained on one foot
is two (2).
It's not the easiest to decode. However, note that the clear change of edge is a level "bullet" - that's one that our spin coach has been working on with our skaters quite aggressively.
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As of this year, hold for 8 is only a feature for sit if it is in a difficult variation. So she would have to go immediately into the cannonball/pancake/etc. and then hold that for 8 to get a level 3.
Actually, must hold the basic position for at least 2 revs before the difficult variaton to get any level called...
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Actually, must hold the basic position for at least 2 revs before the difficult variaton to get any level called...
"Basic position" just refers to anything that isn't an intermediate position. A pancake or cannonball that is low enough to be considered a variation of a sit spin fulfills the criteria of a basic position. The same goes for a donut (camel) or an I-spin or A-frame (upright) -- the skater doesn't need to do the plain version of the basic position first, or at all.
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"Basic position" just refers to anything that isn't an intermediate position. A pancake or cannonball that is low enough to be considered a variation of a sit spin fulfills the criteria of a basic position. The same goes for a donut (camel) or an I-spin or A-frame (upright) -- the skater doesn't need to do the plain version of the basic position first, or at all.
That's was my understanding as well.
One thing to note is that the IJS caller isn't starting the revolution count until after the first full revolution of the position since it's considered to be part of the entry (solo) or the transition (combo) So count carefully - a lot of skaters give points away by not doing the required number of revolutions (3 or 8) because they're counting the first rev but the caller is not.
I have my skaters go for ten revolutions on standalone spins, so if they lose count, it's okay.
They're low-level, so it doesn't matter since they're not being judged under IJS, but it doesn't hurt to teach them how to count early, lol.
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That's was my understanding as well.
One thing to note is that the IJS caller isn't starting the revolution count until after the first full revolution of the position since it's considered to be part of the entry (solo) or the transition (combo) So count carefully - a lot of skaters give points away by not doing the required number of revolutions (3 or 8) because they're counting the first rev but the caller is not.
I have my skaters go for ten revolutions on standalone spins, so if they lose count, it's okay.
They're low-level, so it doesn't matter since they're not being judged under IJS, but it doesn't hurt to teach them how to count early, lol.
My daughter does this ALL the time....drives me and her coaches nuts....hopefully soon she will see the light after being bitten a few times!
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My daughter does this ALL the time....drives me and her coaches nuts....hopefully soon she will see the light after being bitten a few times!
Do you have video of her? If so, then run it in super slo mo (or frame by frame) and have her count the revs from when she was in control of the position (which can be quite different from when she 'assumed the position') and watching for intermediate "slips out of position" - skaters will do this, for example, when they rise up slightly out of the sit to regain control. It can be an eyeopening experience. Many skaters miss that "in control" aspect in terms of having the revs count.
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I once heard that counting spin revolutions was like birthdays, you aren't born and automatically one year old, you have to wait an entire 12 months. So, when you get into the position you can't just start at one you have to go a whole revolution before you start counting. I use that analogy with my students a lot, and they seem to understand it. Now getting in the correct position and staying there is a whole different matter... :-\
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:o That's a brilliant analogy! I love it!
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Do you have video of her? If so, then run it in super slo mo (or frame by frame) and have her count the revs from when she was in control of the position (which can be quite different from when she 'assumed the position') and watching for intermediate "slips out of position" - skaters will do this, for example, when they rise up slightly out of the sit to regain control. It can be an eyeopening experience. Many skaters miss that "in control" aspect in terms of having the revs count.
Getting there, she realized today, that she lost a level on her back camel because it was unsteady and her leg came down a bit... I mean, she still got a leve 3, which wasn't bad... but it was meant as a level 4. She is starting to get it!
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Wow - lightbulb moment. One of dd's spins (which she thought was level 3 - but was given level 2) involved sit spin plus pancake (although doubt she was in full pancake for 8) followed by Y-balance spin (no idea of revolutions- probably about 5) and then standard upright spin. She was cross it wasn't level 3 - but - guess the pancake position needed to be way more revolutions. She can hold them for ages but worries about not finishing her program!
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Wow - lightbulb moment. One of dd's spins (which she thought was level 3 - but was given level 2) involved sit spin plus pancake (although doubt she was in full pancake for 8) followed by Y-balance spin (no idea of revolutions- probably about 5) and then standard upright spin. She was cross it wasn't level 3 - but - guess the pancake position needed to be way more revolutions. She can hold them for ages but worries about not finishing her program!
Okay, if the sit wasn't low enough, it would be called an upright spin, same with the pancake; then the "y-spin" is also an upright, and then the standard upright is - an upright. Check that the sit was held for the correct number of revs with the skating leg at least horizontal to the ice, if not lower; some skaters also mistakenly assume that a pancake is a sit, but, you still have to have that same depth in the skating leg as with a regular sit. Also, if she used any of these "features" in an earlier spin - they don't get the bullet in the subsequent spin, as a feature counts only once in a program.
Lots and lots of variables this year. Lots and lots of baffled skaters and coaches rethinking spins.
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Okay, if the sit wasn't low enough, it would be called an upright spin, same with the pancake.
It'd actually be an intermediate position, not an upright (unless she really was upright) but in many instances, she just wouldn't have gotten credit for the difficult variation if she never actually achieved the position. A lot of skaters do not get low enough in the pancake or don't stay low enough for all 8 revolutions -- that sit spin definition is strict!
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It'd actually be an intermediate position, not an upright (unless she really was upright) but in many instances, she just wouldn't have gotten credit for the difficult variation if she never actually achieved the position. A lot of skaters do not get low enough in the pancake or don't stay low enough for all 8 revolutions -- that sit spin definition is strict!
If the initial sit wasn't a sit, then, it would be an Upright spin, and the pancake wouldn't be called as an intermediate position ... that's where I was going with that.
A sit spin that doesn't "sit" is called a Usp on the detail sheet - leaving to my favorite, the flying sit spin that doesn't sit:
FUsp.
The first time I saw it on a detail sheet I blinked a bit ... I knew the sit wasn't GREAT, but, really, that was a BIT over the top! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
On which note ... skatingmum2, I don't know what you get with your skater's competition reports, but, we get detail sheets that show the "codes" for each of the elements, which is where my kids find out that the FSSp turned into ... FUSp. Do you know what your kid's spin was called as?
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Actually, according to the ISU definitions, it should be called as an intermediate position or, more commonly, seen as a failed attempt at a difficult variation and not given credit. An upright allows a slight bend in the knee, but certainly nothing close to the knee bend on an attempted sit (unless it was a really bad attempt!). In the case of a FSSp becoming a FUSp, I would say you lucked out -- a strict technical specialist could have decided that the basic position was never achieved and given it no level, since those are technically the rules. I have seen several cases of dashes on protocol sheets because a kid couldn't get low enough.
This could be a case of different regions/different countries, though.
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I have a quick, spin-related question: What are some difficult variations in a "sit-sideways" position?
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Could you be more specific? Do you mean the one that Ashley Wagner achieves where the core is twisted but free foot is in traditional sit position or the broken leg variety?
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There are 3 types of difficult variations you can achieve credit for. Sit forward (clam/pancake or cannonball for example) sit behind (back tuck for example) and sit sideways, which I dont have an example for, and that is my question. I hope that makes sense...just because that's what I took from the reading on spin features I did.
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Broken leg is the only one that's used regularly.
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Ok, cool, thanks so much.
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Never heard the term "sit sideways." Sounds like something you do at a bar, lol.
Chowskates has a great sit-into-broken-leg-sit-spin move: blink and you miss the transition!
http://www.youtube.com/user/chowskates#p/u/37/tC5_L3yyCDs
Is this what you mean by "sit sideways?"
Most of the for IJS qualifications discussed at PSA conferences are based on TORSO positions, not free leg.
The bellybutton is considered the "arrow" and it needs to clearly face in the right direction to get a good call.
Ex: Camel spin positions:
. Bellybutton down: Basic Camel
. Bellybutton sideways: Doughnut or stacked Camel
. Bellybutton up: Layover
The skater cannot simply turn their shoulders to face upwards for a Layover, their torso has to be facing upward as well.
Edit: I stand corrected - the USFSA Tech Notification 70 uses the term "Sit Sideways (SS)"
New to me!
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I think it was called a sit spin but she didn't get into the pancake position immediately. She's watched the DVD now - and thinks it was about 6 revolutions in the pancake position although more in general sit spin position. I must figure out how to post a photograph as she does get really low - skirt brushing on the ice and leg quite straight.
I can't remember hte abbreviations - something like CoSsp something or other - I get muddled. (I think she was meant though to do camel, sit spin, y-balance spin - but - her music started so softly she missed the first few bars till they turned up the sound so she cut it short and left the first bit out - although she still felt she may have got level 3. I gave her the stuff to read though and she understands much more about holding the difficult position longer).
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Never heard the term "sit sideways." Sounds like something you do at a bar, lol.
Most of the for IJS qualifications discussed at PSA conferences are based on TORSO positions, not free leg.
The bellybutton is considered the "arrow" and it needs to clearly face in the right direction to get a good call.
Edit: I stand corrected - the USFSA Tech Notification 70 uses the term "Sit Sideways (SS)"
New to me!
I think the belly button rule is JUST for camels. Otherwise it seems the A-spin/butt spin would be a camel because the belly-button is down, but it fits the upright definition of "any position with extended or almost extended skating leg that is not a camel" because the leg is not in camel position.
For sit spin, the indicator of sit front, sit back, or sit sideways seems to be the leg.
There is also a picture in the technical manual of a sit forward that the torso is clearly sideways, so it can't be torso position. http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-197593-214816-125742-0-file,00.pdf (second picture on top row of page 13. It took me a long time to figure out how that was different from 3rd picture on second row, and I think it has to be the leg.)
It also seems like the sit behind legs are very similar to the sit sideways legs, but they all cross over the spinning leg, where sit sideways is open.
Lastly- holy crap I-spin layback. I really want to know how that skater is.
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Sorry, I didn't write that clearly - the bulk of the discussion centered around bellybutton and camel positions.
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This discussion is interesting. Dd is working on new spins. Back camel, broken leg spin, back tuck(I THINK it is called that), Biellmann, Layback(she does not like this spin...lol), cannonball in addition to a few other spins. She'll be moving up to Preliminary after the first of the year so they are working on spins. She can get pretty low in her regular sit spin position and her broken leg and cannonball. Back sit has always been a challenge for her. She does it better alone then in a combo. EEK! She managed about 4-5 revs in her broken leg before she fell. Not too bad. Coming out of it is a bit harder for her right now... today was her second day doing it. Eventhough she is currently pre-pre working on moving up to prelim, should she be working at trying to increase her speed and revs now? She can get going pretty fast on some spins. She has a decent pancake and it looks like it won't be long before she has a decent broken leg spin(for her level). Also, she doesn't have a consistant fly spin(can do a flying camel but doesn't work on it enough). At the prelim level, how important is it for her to have a flying spin? Obviously she is not at a high level, but working on getting solid spins with good technique would be a good thing. :)