skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: lutefisk on August 17, 2014, 06:53:47 PM
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OK, I'm a dummy and I ain't 'fraid to admit that. What I'd like to know is this: do Synchro blades split the difference between Dance and Freestyle? I. E.: are synchro blades the best "all arounder" choice for recreation skaters interested in testing and mild competition in the various figure skating diciplines? It seems that Dance blades don't have enough toe picks to jump beyond half rotational jumps (correct me if that's not correct) and Freestyle blades, although due to their nice flattish long tails are like an aircraft carrier in terms of landability (might be a word) but are not the nimblest tool in the shed. If that's actually more or less true, are Synchro blades the ones that split the difference and permit "dabblers" like myself the best of both worlds???
Alrighty, I've laid out the question. Now I'm gonna set back and watch the sparks fly.
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No Sparks!
This is a great question actually!!
From what I've seen the Synchro blades are only slightly longer in the tail than the Dance blades so I doubt that most skaters would like them for all-around skating and freestyle although they might.
I have worn Dance Blades of various styles and lengths for over twenty years. My first were called Wilson Dance and were basically a Majestic with the backs cut off (per Wilson Rep). I could jump and spin in them and they have a decent toe-pick. They were 4mm wide and I believe had a 7 inch rocker. I loved those blades but I wore them until there was no more edge left to sharpen and they don't make them anymore.
Then I bought a pair of MK Dance - the thin kind - shorter with very blunted picks. I could not do any spins or any types of jumps in these - even bunny hop and side hops, etc., because I always felt like I was going to slip with these. Now I realize that elite ice-dancers do all sorts of jump-like movements in these and so maybe it was just me or maybe they retrofit their blades somehow and sharpen the picks so they can do this or maybe they are just young and talented I don't know.
Then I got the Super-Dance 99 - a Wilson blade with an 8 inch rocker and also thin (3mm) -. These have almost decent picks and so didn't freak me out as much but still no "top pick" so toe-jumps couldn't work. I could jump and spin and bit (waltz jumps) in these - I like them BUT they are shorter than the MK dance - so yeah, a bit freaky.
So thinking about eventually getting a Synchro blade which I think might work for me - wondering if there is one that is also slimline which I like...
I do think freestyle blades are WAY to long in the back end and don't see the point - I think Gold Seals are not quite so long...
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No Sparks!
This is a great question actually!!
Thanks!
From what I've seen the Synchro blades are only slightly longer in the tail than the Dance blades so I doubt that most skaters would like them for all-around skating and freestyle although they might.
Most skaters have a love/hate relationship with either their boots or blades or both--so were does this put us in terms of a recommendation for that best all-round blade choice? Is it better for rec skaters to continue skating on freestyle blades while dabbling with dance and MIF tests or would we be better served on Synchro blades? The 64 x 10(6) question...
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I'm not certain this is the same on modern Ultima blades, but -
My Ultima Matrix 1 Dance and Synchro blade runners are almost identical - except that the Dance runners are thinline and have blunted toepicks, especially the drag pick at the back. My Synchro runners are very close to my Supreme (high level freestyle) blades - but the Synchro toe pick is blunted with respect to the Supreme.
(In addition, the Supreme spin rocker is flatter than that of the Dance and Synchro - but that might be because Mike Cunningham re-sharpened the Supremes for me - he said he wanted to give them a profile intermediate between what I was used to (MK Dance) and off-the-shelf Supremes.)
So Ultima Matrix 1 Synchro had picks in between those of Ultima Matrix 1 Dance and Ultima Matrix 1 Supremes. If Modern Ultima blades are the same, the same may hold for them. (OTOH, a more entry level freestyle blade might not have toe picks that stick out as far?)
P.S. You can't always judge what you can do based on what the top elite skaters can do with a given blade. Some hockey players with figure skating backgrounds can do the more basic figure skating jumps in hockey skates, with no toe picks.
Flexibility is also a big deal here. If you can point your toes enough, you can reach the toe picks on the Dance and Synchro blades. Though, on toe jumps, if you reach back all the way behind you (which creates a full toe point - try it in bare feet to see what I mean), you may GLIDE instead of stop the picking foot, on a Dance blade, especially if the Dance blade is somewhat worn - I've had this happen on worn MK Dance, which is why I am back on the Ultima blades.
Wilson "Coronation Dance blades" have a 7' rocker, but are described at Kinzie's Closet (http://www.shop.kinziescloset.com/Wilson-Coronation-Dance-Figure-Skate-Blade-WilsonCoronationDance.htm) as ENTRY LEVEL Dance. I don't think they are the same as "Wilson Dance".
The problem with sharpening Dance picks for jumps is that they also don't stick out as far as Freestyle picks, so they don't produce the same shape as real freestyle picks even when sharpened. Plus only the very best figure skate sharpeners can sharpen picks well.
There is another approach. Some people grind off the back of freestyle blades if they find the tails too long. But again, get a top rate figure skate sharpener, because this isn't all that common.
Since you skate at Bowie, you are within an hours drive or less to Skater's Paradise. He (Mike Cunningham) charges more than other area fitters and sharpeners, but he can give you expert advice, especially on something this big. He is semi-retired, so get an appointment.
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From my standpoint, Lutefisk I'd have to say yes, synchro blades could be seen as the love child between Dance and Free blades. I was looking for exactly that love child when I bought blades last year. I wound up in Vision Synchros. I wanted a short tail for synchro and dance (and because I personally stepped on it all the time). But I also wanted a pretty aggressive toepick, so traditional dance blades were out.
Here's my thoughts after a season. The Vision Synchros do have a decent toepick, although the drag is "angled". It feels shorter, and was quite an adjustment. I can't use the drag to stop when going backwards anymore (probably a good thing, but annoying sometimes in Synchro when we lose a formation). I have only just messed around with my jumps, and not tried lutz's or above, but except for a tendency to flat foot landings, which is more likely user-error, I haven't had an issue. Spins are great.
The shorter tails were less of an adjustment than I was expecting. They're shorter than my coach's MK dance, and I'm not sure how they compare to CoroDance. I do still fall off the backs of them, although it never happened very often, and only really when we were experimenting with various lifts for last year's end of season show. Let's be frank- I fell of the backs of normal length blades, too. I have special skills. I will admit that at times, and for certain things like power pulls, I am still conscious of their shortness, but overall I don't notice it. Caveat: I do hope to jump for synchro this year, so I reserve the right to change my mind if need be. In all honesty though, I haven't jumped for real for 25 years.....I doubt I'll notice much difference.
I do like my VS's, and would absolutely consider getting them again, especially if I was still in a non-freestyle scenario. I would still consider them if I ever get to add freestyle back into the mix, but that would be with coach blessings. Based on a recommendation given my by my fitter, I've been exploring the Ultima's, but the pick situation on their synchro blade does NOT excite me. To convert me, they'd need to fix that.
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I skate in Ultima Synchro blades for dance and synchro and they are pretty good for most things you'd want to do in freestyle. I don't tend to jump too much in them, but that's not because of the short tail, it's because I'm scared of going backwards in the boots because of the low cut backs (not that I should have my weight carrying on backwards when landing jumps!). Blade wise, the toe pick is just the same as those on my Ultima Legacy which I use for freestyle so there's no difference there. The only real difference is the shorter tail so I don't tread on them.
And interestingly I've never fallen backwards off my blade when on the synchro ones, I do dig the heel into the ice when on the freestyle ones as I forget how much longer it is and therefore that I need to lift my leg and turn my foot out more!
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I skate in Ultima Synchro blades for dance and synchro and they are pretty good for most things you'd want to do in freestyle...[snip]..the toe pick is just the same as those on my Ultima Legacy.....
Interesting. I'm curious, are you on the old synchro blades (UB60 now discontinued) or the Finesse (UB55)?? It's the Finesse that I was referring to above.
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Interesting. I'm curious, are you on the old synchro blades (UB60 now discontinued) or the Finesse (UB55)?? It's the Finesse that I was referring to above.
I'm on what was called Ultima Synchro, they are quite possibly the ones which are now discontinued as I've had the boots and blades about 5 or 6 years now (and am now starting to think about replacements).
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I'm on what was called Ultima Synchro, they are quite possibly the ones which are now discontinued as I've had the boots and blades about 5 or 6 years now (and am now starting to think about replacements).
Hmmm. The photos on the Finesse (which is the one they're replacing the Synchro with), don't have an inspiring pick......or it's a bad photo. If you're in the market, when you do eventually go look, I'd be very curious to hear your thoughts.
If they are dumbing down the toepick, that's a shame. I do like the "hybrid" blade.
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Hmmm. The photos on the Finesse (which is the one they're replacing the Synchro with), don't have an inspiring pick......or it's a bad photo. If you're in the market, when you do eventually go look, I'd be very curious to hear your thoughts.
If they are dumbing down the toepick, that's a shame. I do like the "hybrid" blade.
I went look after you said and I'm disappointed if they've taken away the synchro blade. It was perfect for me. I might have to see if I can hunt down a replacement set. Thankfully they've got more boot options that they had when I originally got mine as I might go slightly softer, but the Finesse look like I'll break them down pretty quickly doing sit spins!
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One difference between the MK Vision and the Ultima Finesse is the rocker. Visions are 7' while Finesse blades are 8'. How does that play out in terms of how spooky or forgiving the blades are?
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Finesse are SOFT boots. I could have creased them in the store. Easily. I'm tall, but not that big but have always been hard on my skates. Hopefully as time moves on there will be more synchro blade options out there. I'm very happy with my Vision Synchros, but my fitter showed me several gnarly blades made by MK and Wilson...their quality control is not. But I guess that's common knowledge on the streets. He has lots of great things to say about the Ultima's, so despite the 8' rocker (which would probably be OK after adjustment period) they're on the list for the next pair, which I hope is several years down the road.
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One difference between the MK Vision and the Ultima Finesse is the rocker. Visions are 7' while Finesse blades are 8'. How does that play out in terms of how spooky or forgiving the blades are?
We cross posted. I've never skated on an 8' rocker, so I can't speak from any kind of experience on that. My suspicion though, and anyone should feel free to correct me if my guess is wrong, is that after an adjustment period, it'd be fine. I suspect the adjustment would have more to do with finding the sweet spot than anything else. The difference in maneuverability might be noticeable to someone skating at the National/World level, but for someone like me (working on pre-silver dances, if doing free, would be getting my axel back and working on Novice, patching on 3rd test) I don't think it'd make that much of a difference.
I guess the caveat would be that some people love an 8' rocker and others prefer a 7'. But you gotta try it to know, and dance aside, most elite skaters seem to be on 8'.
ETA: but you're talking recreation, so I doubt the difference would be that noticeable. And as I understand it, that's the idea behind why Ultima blades are all 8' rockers (dunno about their dance) most people eventually switch up.
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ETA: but you're talking recreation, so I doubt the difference would be that noticeable. And as I understand it, that's the idea behind why Ultima blades are all 8' rockers (dunno about their dance) most people eventually switch up.
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The Ultima dance blades (UB115) are also 8 footers: http://www.jacksonultima.com/en/Index.aspx?product=1a2b3c4d5ewsYeo6VVjGm/S5tqIuOfw1A2B3C4D5E1A2B3C4D5E
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The Ultima dance blades (UB115) are also 8 footers: http://www.jacksonultima.com/en/Index.aspx?product=1a2b3c4d5ewsYeo6VVjGm/S5tqIuOfw1A2B3C4D5E1A2B3C4D5E
[scratches head] I looked that up after posting and saw it too. It seems to run counter to logic. So, at the end o f the day, either there isn't THAT big a difference and MK is giving away a LOT of free blades to the top flight dancers, or there is a big difference and Ultima missed the design boat on that one.
Anyone?
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Coronation dance toe picks look identical to my old coronation aces, in fact the only noticeable difference between the 2 is the shorter tail on the dance blades. Backwards toe pick stopping and "Ahhh, too fast" emergency slowing down (using toepicks mid dance while going backwards) are perfectly possible, much to my coach's dispair! :blush: Not tried much proper jumping on them but they are fine for assorted toe steps (including half rotation hops).
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I think possibly that the difference between 8ft and 7ft is a bit of a misdirection. Most of the blades use different rockers along the length of the blade (otherwise there wouldn't be a sweet spot) and it's the rocker around the sweet spot which determines the stability. I used to skate in ISE Sterling blades which I believe are 8ft rockers. My coach told me to ditch those for freestyle as they were too flat at the sweet spot so I didn't have anywhere to rock forward before hitting the toepick and this was affecting my jump technique.
Loops - I think you're probably onto something with the free blades being given away by MK. I know a dance coach who got a free pair from MK, so I can well imagine the top skaters are all getting them free.
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At the risk of appearing ever more ignorant, who makes "ISE" blades? I've not heard of that brand. I see that an on-line outfit called Skate-Mart International offers that company's line of blades but I haven't tripped over the ISE manufacture's site (assuming there is one).
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I think possibly that the difference between 8ft and 7ft is a bit of a misdirection. Most of the blades use different rockers along the length of the blade (otherwise there wouldn't be a sweet spot) and it's the rocker around the sweet spot which determines the stability.
For a while I've kinda suspected that ^^ has more to do with the stability/maneuverability than the size of the rocker. How different are these blades at the sweetspot? Picking the MK line, are all the blades an identical shape, (so Prof same profile as a Phantom) but with different pick and honing/tapering/dovetailing combinations? I know the dance model is narrower than the others, too although MK's website is non-informative on that....
I suspect this conversation has been had somewhere on here before though....but maybe not. Will search when I have a child-free moment.
I do think that MK/Wilson are giving away a LOT of free blades. With the competition from Ultima and Riedell, they may feel obligated so as to keep their market. I have also heard from a trustworthy source that at least the Russian and French team coaches dictate the blade choice- so all Russians and French skate on Gold Seals, the skaters themselves get no say in the matter. Seems messed up to me, but whatever. This is corroborated by things I was told here in France when I got skates last year, so I do believe it.
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Well, just for grins, I ordered some 10-1/2" Ultima Synchro blades from Kinzie's Closet.
On clearance for $69, I thought that the combination of 8' rocker and shorter length might be fun to try. I wouldn't have too much invested in the experiment.
If or when I ever mount them, then I'll have some impressions to share.
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Well, just for grins, I ordered some 10-1/2" Ultima Synchro blades from Kinzie's Closet.
On clearance for $69, I thought that the combination of 8' rocker and shorter length might be fun to try. I wouldn't have too much invested in the experiment.
If or when I ever mount them, then I'll have some impressions to share.
Sounds like an interesting experiment! Details when you have them. In terms of size, did you order the same size as your Freestyle blades?
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I ordered the same size as my current Coronation Aces.
I made an assumption that the nominal blade size is the mount length at the boot. My current Aces are stamped 10-1/2, and a tape measure shows them to be exactly that...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/skate_blade_length_measurement-7-800px.jpg)
A safe assumption, I hope.
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At the risk of appearing ever more ignorant, who makes "ISE" blades? I've not heard of that brand. I see that an on-line outfit called Skate-Mart International offers that company's line of blades but I haven't tripped over the ISE manufacture's site (assuming there is one).
I think they're now owned by Jerry's. But I first came across them at Cyclone Taylor in Canada.
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Well, just for grins, I ordered some 10-1/2" Ultima Synchro blades from Kinzie's Closet.
On clearance for $69, I thought that the combination of 8' rocker and shorter length might be fun to try. I wouldn't have too much invested in the experiment.
If or when I ever mount them, then I'll have some impressions to share.
I am going to have to do this! That's the other thing about synchro blades is that they are WAY cheaper than dance blades - you can often get them on deals like this but even without the deals they are cheaper.
I think this is because they are marketing to whole teams or something.
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I am going to have to do this! That's the other thing about synchro blades is that they are WAY cheaper than dance blades - you can often get them on deals like this but even without the deals they are cheaper.
I think this is because they are marketing to whole teams or something.
I was wondering about the price differential. MK lists the Vision Synchros as "beginner" blades, while the Vision is in "intermediate" with the Professional. I've heard the hypothesis about marketing to whole teams, but how much of a market is there for Synchro blades? Do teams force their skaters to get the same blade? I see a lot of teams here in France skating on Freestyle blades. Granted these are the recreational teams, based out of Freestyle clubs; Division A Jr and Sr teams could very well be different- they go to different competitions though, so I don't get to see.
Everyone except Wilson seems to have one dedicated synchro blade, but just one. Granted, there's a decent market for dance blades, but likewise not a whole lot of variety available-again, each maker has one, except Wilson that has the CoroDance and the Superdance. And I've seen the the CoroDance marketed as a synchro blade.
Yet we are having this conversation- I can't be the only one in the world who wants what amounts to a shortened freestyle blade, since many synchro teams do jump. But maybe my choice and preferences are misguided.
Actually, Icedancer....iir, you skate on the superdance. How much of a toepick is there (relative to the MKDance or the CoroDance....I know those two)? Could you jump if you wanted?
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I ordered the same size as my current Coronation Aces.
I made an assumption that the nominal blade size is the mount length at the boot. My current Aces are stamped 10-1/2, and a tape measure shows them to be exactly that...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/skate_blade_length_measurement-7-800px.jpg)
A safe assumption, I hope.
Bill: Reason I asked was since synchro and dance blades have shorter tails I wondered if one would need to have a slightly different size to compensate (for the loss of the longer tail on freestyle blades). My Jackson Freestyle boots are size 9.5M and have soles measuring 11.25". The Ulitima Mirage blades are 10.75"; { however, according to the chart on Kenzie's closet I should have 11" blades but since these blades were mounted by the manufacturer I'll assume they know what their doing(!)} I sure don't know squat about correct blade size, but I'm hoping to learn. Can anyone who alternates between Synchro and Freestyle blades comment on this?
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Well, just for grins, I ordered some 10-1/2" Ultima Synchro blades from Kinzie's Closet.
On clearance for $69, I thought that the combination of 8' rocker and shorter length might be fun to try. I wouldn't have too much invested in the experiment.
If or when I ever mount them, then I'll have some impressions to share.
Hmmm, at that price I might have to get a pair and work out how to get them shipped over.
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Blade sizes are based on the length from the front of the sole plate to the back of the heel plate. They are not based on how long the blade itself is. My dance blades and my freestyle blades are the same size, even though the blade length is clearly different.
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AFAIK, you should order the same length blades for every blade type.
Whether you should order different blade lengths for different boots is a little more complicated. That is the standard theory - that you should the longest length that is less than outsole length (from the back of the boot heel to the front of the outsole).
But really, what many people say affects you most is the distance between the back of your heel and the ball of your foot, both in terms of comfortable boot fit and in terms of how you control your skate. If you get full custom boots, and the fit is done well, the outsole size and placement are probably set to give you a good length and placement. But if you get stock boots, there is no reason for there to be any relationship between the outsole length or placement and your ideal blade length and placement. (I've never heard of anyone using different length blades on left and right feet - have any of you?)
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I think the ISE blade manufacturer is Jerry's Skating World (http://www.jerryskate.com). They are often listed as "Jerry's ISE".
I don't know anything else about them. But they aren't a very common brand.
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Certain boot and blade makers give away boots and blades, to high profile skaters and influential coaches, because they want you to see these people in their products. (I've known a number of coaches in that category.) I believe the Figure Skating Director at Bowie Ice Arena got free MK or Wilson parabolic blades, as part of an ad campaign pushing parabolics. Even normal coaches can get substantial discounts on boots - maybe blades too?
In the past, certain boot makers have sponsored (given money to) high profile athletes. (Like Riedel and Michael Kwan - remember how her silhouette appeared on Riedel skate boxes, long after she quite publicly switched back to another brand [SP Teri???]?) I bet certain blade makers have sponsored athletes to use their gear too.
Sponsorship would matter much more than boot cost: near the very top, it is quite common for skaters to spend $70,000 (USD) or more / year. It's out of date, but Kwan's book claimed that the top skaters earned about $1 Million/year. I doubt the cost of boots or blades alone would be enough for them to switch to another brand. But sponsorships has always been a big portion of how high profile athletes earn money and cover costs, in many sports - and one of the costs of doing business for many sports equipment companies.
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Actually, Icedancer....iir, you skate on the superdance. How much of a toepick is there (relative to the MKDance or the CoroDance....I know those two)? Could you jump if you wanted?
The picks on the SuperDance are pickier - grippier than the MKs - the MKs are smoothed off for the most part and I found them totally slippy for any kind of toe-pick action.
But there is very little "top pick" on the SuperDance - I don't think I could do toe jumps in them... I used to do waltz jumps in them - now at the age of 60 the thought of jumping at all terrifies me - so yes, I could do more jumps in the SuperDance than the MKs - also used to spin a little in them (ditto on the spins now - can't, won't do any spinning...
But there is just something a little "off" with the SuperDance. They are just too short!! People comment on it all the time to me saying I have the wrong size blade - but they are 10 1/4 just like my MKs and others before them - basically are correct on the sole of the boot but they are... short!
I have heard from other ice-dancers that if you didn't like the MK Dance a lot of people like the Ultima Dance or Ultima Synchro because they feel more stable in them. Since the Synchro are cheaper I am guessing that at a certain point I will try them out!
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Bill: Reason I asked was since synchro and dance blades have shorter tails I wondered if one would need to have a slightly different size to compensate (for the loss of the longer tail on freestyle blades). My Jackson Freestyle boots are size 9.5M and have soles measuring 11.25". The Ulitima Mirage blades are 10.75"; { however, according to the chart on Kenzie's closet I should have 11" blades but since these blades were mounted by the manufacturer I'll assume they know what their doing(!)} I sure don't know squat about correct blade size, but I'm hoping to learn. Can anyone who alternates between Synchro and Freestyle blades comment on this?
The Blade should actually be a 11" but if the manufacturer thinks it's fine sometimes they will mount a half inch shorter especially if they want to get the boots out to the customer fast and they don't have any of the proper length in stock.
The size of the blade affects where the various parts of the rockers lay relative to your foot (not just the spin rocker, think back to forward turns especially those more difficult than a three turn), and it also affects the size of the toe pick relative to your body size, since a smaller blade must have a smaller toe pick to keep that section of the blade in proportion with the rest of it. Undersizing a blade is detrimental, and oversizing a blade can be as well except when the manufacturer recommends it due to how their boots are constructed (I think Klingbeil recommended end to end mountings). This has always made me wonder if Pros recommended boots based on which blade sizes they have available, though... Lol
You can adjust to the rocker though. 1/4" isn't a super ton, and dancers don't tend to do many jumps or spins (at least not nearly as much as a freestyle skater), so I guess it was largely fine and likely why they didn't feel the need to be strict about blade measurement when mounting them.
If I got freestyle boots with blades a half inch shorter than the sole, I'd send them back for the correct sole. The Toe Pick would likely feel too small to support me on jumps, and I probably wouldn't be able to spin in them since the spin rocker would be way too far forward. The back rocker of the blade would also be too forward, which cases you to risk rocking off the heel of the blade when doing back to forward turns (a dance blade is already super short back there, but there exist FS blades with shorter tails as well).
TL;DR - for the Sole length you quoted, the blade should generally be 11", or 1/4" shorter than the sold length.
Synchro Blades are intermediate - between freestyle and dance. There are Synchro Blades rated up through all Double Jumps and Flying Spins. I don't know any that are rated for Triples or Quads because pick size is limited on them and you need an aggressive pick for those jumps, among other things. The tail length is between a freestyle and a dance blade, and like I said, there are freestyle blades rated for triples and quads that feature a shorter tail length that that is less of a factor.
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O.P.: What type of jumps are you working on now, and what type of blades are you on now?
If I understand you to be saying you are on Ultima Mirage (a semi-beginner blade), many Synchro picks would already be more aggressive picks, and might be just right.
There is such a thing as moving to too much toepick too fast. Remember that movie where the lady skater gleefully exclaims "Toepick!" every time her would-be skating partner trips and falls over his toe pick? Plus, judges often penalize ice dancers who let their toepicks touch when they don't have to.
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O.P.: What type of jumps are you working on now, and what type of blades are you on now?
If I understand you to be saying you are on Ultima Mirage (a semi-beginner blade), many Synchro picks would already be more aggressive picks, and might be just right.
There is such a thing as moving to too much toepick too fast. Remember that movie where the lady skater gleefully exclaims "Toepick!" every time her would-be skating partner trips and falls over his toe pick? Plus, judges often penalize ice dancers who let their toepicks touch when they don't have to.
O.P.--??? Ocean Pacific? Order of Preachers? Opus Number? Who is this O.P. you speak of? ;-)
If you're talkin' to me, yes I have Ultima Mirage blades. I spoke with my coach about the idea of switching to synchro blades last night and she pointed out that until I clean up my alternating outside 3s (they're scratchy 'cause I'm too far back on the blade) I'd probably kill myself with short tailed blades. So while I admire and acknowledge the diminished toe pick hazard provided by synchro and dance blades I don't want to exchange that for an increased potential of falling backwards. As tempting as the discount price is, I'm gonna wait until I hear more from Bill S.
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I can safely say that unless you're right at the very back of your blade your scratchy 3 turns will remain just that with synchro or dance blades. It's a subtle difference in weight which makes you scrape your turns. I can scrape mine in both my freestyle and synchro blades and it's mainly down to my weight being slightly wrong on the sweet spot where the turns happen.
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A skater can (and will) adjust to the toe pick. It isn't the same as over booting, which has serious health risks and the skater may never be able to break the boots in if they're too stiff anyways. It is hardly anything to worry about, and most skaters will move early so they learn the elements on high end equipment and don't have to most them to a completely different blade later.
This is why if you look on ebay there are tons of lower end child boots with Pattern 99 blades on them, lol.
Most of the skaters here move above Pro/Ace blades by the time they're preliminary or the level afterwards, before they're even working on doubles. They do fine and practically none have that problem now.
A lot of skaters avoid over booting by getting Edens now.
The pick on a Gold Seal is barely bigger than a Pro or Ace pick, and Pattern 99 isn't that much different than Vision. The biggest change in the picks moving up is the angle of the Drag and Master picks. The angle on the higher blades make edge jumps much easier because they "catch" with a lot less toe point that the lower blades (which have a smaller angle to prevent tripping). The bigger master picks on some blades help toe jumps a lot as well. The bigger top pick helps a lot in toe spotting.
This means when moving from one to another blade, technique has to be adjusted, as well as timing. You make this easier on the skater later on by moving up sooner. It doesn't hurt anything. The skater will adjust early and won't have to do it later, which can or may come at a bad time for them (growth spurt, puberty, etc.)
This also explains somewhat why most people wouldn't jump on dance blades and why very few buy synchro blades for freestyle. Smaller, blunted tor picks are inefficient... but is is possible to jump on [some] of those blades (especially the synchro blades).
Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 using Tapatalk.
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I can safely say that unless you're right at the very back of your blade your scratchy 3 turns will remain just that with synchro or dance blades. It's a subtle difference in weight which makes you scrape your turns. I can scrape mine in both my freestyle and synchro blades and it's mainly down to my weight being slightly wrong on the sweet spot where the turns happen.
The reason why the dance and Synchro blades have shorter tails is because they skate close to others as well. For dance, VERY close. The shirt we tail reduces risk of tripping.
Additionally, it's a lot easier to "get it wrong" in a dance program as unlike a freestyle program, theirs are predominantly clusters of turns and transitions.
With the much higher volume of maneuvers on the ice, the risk goes up. They also need quicker turns because timing and tempo is of utmost importance to them.
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O.P.--??? Ocean Pacific? Order of Preachers? Opus Number? Who is this O.P. you speak of? ;-)
If you're talkin' to me, yes I have Ultima Mirage blades. I spoke with my coach about the idea of switching to synchro blades last night and she pointed out that until I clean up my alternating outside 3s (they're scratchy 'cause I'm too far back on the blade) I'd probably kill myself with short tailed blades. So while I admire and acknowledge the diminished toe pick hazard provided by synchro and dance blades I don't want to exchange that for an increased potential of falling backwards. As tempting as the discount price is, I'm gonna wait until I hear more from Bill S.
Original Post[er]
Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 using Tapatalk.
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Original Post[er]
Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 using Tapatalk.
Now I know. Thanks.
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A lot of skaters avoid over booting by getting Edens now.
Is this (http://www.sarenza.co.uk/eden-martina-s2195-p0000045341?awc=2780_1408634367_f7175481f2543697286870fadb9d2dad#ectrans=1) what you mean? :)
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Is this (http://www.sarenza.co.uk/eden-martina-s2195-p0000045341?awc=2780_1408634367_f7175481f2543697286870fadb9d2dad#ectrans=1) what you mean? :)
Thank you for making me laugh
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The Jackson Ultima Synchro blades arrived today. I took some measurements, made some tracings of the rocker, and compared the toe picks. I was a bit disappointed to see a sticker on the blades indicating the country of origin to be Taiwan. Note that the measurements below are for 10-1/2" blades (measured from toe tip to back of heel on the mounting plate) to fit my size 7-1/2 Riedell boots
First the toe picks...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/skate_toe_pick_comp.jpg)
The Coronation Aces are on the left, the Ultima Synchros on the right. I was astonished at how aggressive the toe pick appears on the Synchro blade. While the picks are straight cut, they are cut considerably deeper than the Aces. I never found the Aces to be lacking for my own toe jumps, so I don't expect any problem using the Synchros - especially since I don't jump as much any more. This is armchair speculation, and actually skating on them later will settle the matter for me.
At 11.25" long, these Synchro blades are 1/2" shorter than my Aces. It's not that much visually. We'll see how much that helps tight footwork.
The stanchion height is a little taller than my Aces, measured at two locations. At the heel stanchion, the Ace height is 1.75" while the Synchros are 1.92" (difference of 0.17"). At the spin rocker stanchion the Aces were 1.77", Synchros 1.85" (difference of 0.08"). The Synchros will sit a little taller in the tail than the Aces. They will also provide marginally better clearance for boot lean. I'm unsure how this will translate into the feel of the blade on ice.
What I found most surprising was a tracing of the blade rocker. The Synchros are advertised to have an 8' rocker, Aces are 7'. When I overlaid the blade tracings, there was almost no difference between the rocker shape. From previous scale drawings I made, I didn't expect a huge difference, but there was almost none...
(click the picture to enlarge it)
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/skate_blade_comp_synchro.gif)
It's possible that even the gentle hand-sharpening that I've given the blades (very slow steel removal rate) has changed the rocker over time. It still surprised me how closely these two blades matched each other in rocker.
The sole plate is narrower than the Aces (under 2-1/2" wide vs. 2-7/8" wide). It might be an advantage for narrow width boots, but I'm not sure. The edge will need a sharpening touch up. There was no protective strip on the edges like the Aces had when I bought them. I suspect that I'll stay with the advertised 7/16" ROH, so I'll need another Pro-Filer set. (I've been wanting that size anyway!).
That's the measurement part of my experiment. I'll have to mount them and skate on them to conclude the experiment. Unfortunately our rink isn't open just yet, and my teaching job is preventing any travel to other rinks. So stay tuned. It might take about a month for the rest to be done.
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Straight Cut picks are typically deeper than Cross Cut picks.
They allow the pick to dig deeper in the ice so that the skater can get better height on their jumps, the cross cut picks don't dig as deep, but they prevent the slippage that can occur with the straight cut picks so while the height may not be as great, the take-offs may be as consistent as the pick engagement can be more secure.
Most Synchro Blades by the major manufacturers are perfectly usable for both Freestyle and Dance, and are rated up to Double Jumps. Designed to be "combination" blades and are kind of popular with skaters testing up in multiple disciplines (Dance, Freestyle, maybe working with a Synchro Team) since it's not optimal to buy multiple pairs of boots and blades to swap out on the fly.
Same reason boot makers started offering low cut backs, dance scallops, etc. on their freestyle boots.
I'd still personally prefer jumping on the aces. The pick angles are better for it so I'd be able to jump without pointing as much, especially Axels and other edge jumps. The Ultima Synchro blades are cut at an angle similar to an MK Professional which is more optimal for dance-type things. That also affects spin entrances. If I knew back then what I know now, I'd have gone with the Aces over the Professionals from the get go. They are a better designed blade for Freestyle. If I was also doing Dance, then I'd have still gotten the Professionals for that reason, or perhaps gone with a Synchro blade.
The rocker shape of the Ace compared to the Synchro Blade is interesting but I'm not sure how many times each was sharpened. In any case, JW blades have been reported as measuring as much as 2' under their advertised radius out of the box, so getting blades that are bigger than advertised (close to 8' instead of the 7' they quote) isn't "out of the norm" going by history. I think Ultima uses a machine-guided process to getting their blades right practically 99.99999% of the time, so I think the Synchro Blade is likely the most accurate radius (by what you'd expect) in that comparison.
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Bill:
I assume that you lined these up so that the front and end of the mounting plates coincide, and that the mounting holes coincide, so that the parts of the tracing that coincide will coincide as well relative to your skate, right?
Assuming that true, the Ultima Synchro toe pick is further forwards (especially the master pick), higher, and that the angle of the drag pick is blunted. That means that it is harder to reach, and that you have more play around the sweet spot, and that if you place the picking foot far enough behind you (so you are fully pointed), you may glide rather than stop the picking foot on toe jumps. That is exactly what is meant by a significantly less aggressive toe pick, precisely what is to be expected.
Yes the differences are small in inches - but a few hundredths of an inch in toe pick shape and position are a fairly big deal, because it is a large fraction of the height of a toe pick, or of the distance between the ball of the foot and the sweet spot. That is the scale of subtle motion changes that figure skaters use all the time.
As for rockers, take a look at this image of 7', 7.5' and 8' rocker curves, that I have temporarily uploaded:
(a bit quick and dirty - open it, zoom it up until the lines look solid. 7' - 8' rockers are NOT very different, visually.)
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Bill:
I assume that you lined these up so that the front and end of the mounting plates coincide, and that the mounting holes coincide, so that the parts of the tracing that coincide will coincide as well relative to your skate, right?
That's an incorrect assumption - I wanted to compare rocker shape, so I adjusted the placement of the tracings until the drag picks mostly aligned, then nudged the two lines vertically (as layers in Photoshop) to closely overlap. When mounted, the Synchro blade will be taller and it will be tilted almost a degree downward toward the front because of differences in front/rear stanchion height. If I had matched mounting positions, the two blade tracings would be too far apart to show small differences in rocker - which was the goal here.
I'm not going to predict how these will feel/perform at this point. Actually skating on them will be the test. A few more weeks and our rink will have ice again.
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oops
Ignore everything I just said. :(
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That's OK, maybe it helps clarify things for someone else.
One other little discovery - these blades are visibly thinner than my Aces! The blade thickness on the chrome part (where my Pro-filer's 0.170" slot will ride) is:
Aces: 0.167"
Synchros: 0.158"
I'm going to have to use extra tape on the sides when I sharpen them, otherwise the Pro-Filer will rock side-to-side producing an uneven edge.
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That's an incorrect assumption - I wanted to compare rocker shape, so I adjusted the placement of the tracings until the drag picks mostly aligned, then nudged the two lines vertically (as layers in Photoshop) to closely overlap. When mounted, the Synchro blade will be taller and it will be tilted almost a degree downward toward the front because of differences in front/rear stanchion height. If I had matched mounting positions, the two blade tracings would be too far apart to show small differences in rocker - which was the goal here.
I'm not going to predict how these will feel/perform at this point. Actually skating on them will be the test. A few more weeks and our rink will have ice again.
Bill: Have you had a chance to try those new blades?
Best regards,
Curious Lutefisk
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I've been procrastinating for a couple of reasons. 1) I'm lazy and I currently have blades that work, 2) I ordered a 7/16" Pro-Filer sharpener for the new blades, but it took weeks to arrive even after a couple of follow up emails. Then I discovered that it was a 3/8" ROH model instead of the 7/16" that I ordered. It's been difficult communicating with the company this time around. I hope their financial health is OK.
I'll elevate the changeover on my to-do list.
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I apologize for not getting the comparison done.
It's been the craziest year of my entire teaching career, and even weekends are consumed by work that didn't get done during the week. I thought that I had Veteran's Day off (it's a university holiday), but even that has now been scheduled for a day-long committee meeting.
I know, excuses, excuses!
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No worries, Bill. We're mostly adults here, with many the same time constraints. I'm sure you'll give us a full report in the sweet by and by.
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Bill you are such a slacker!!! 8)
No worries.
A friend just ordered the Reidell Dance blade - the Eclipse. I will be sure to report how she likes them - she skated in MK dance for years - loved them - got ruined by a sharpening and now is in something called an MK Special which has a long tail - had a bad fall due to that longer tail last week and wanted to go back to dance blades - chose the Finesse because of the price and also glowing reviews on the internet - we shall see!
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Bill you are such a slacker!!! 8)
No worries.
A friend just ordered the Reidell Dance blade - the Eclipse. I will be sure to report how she likes them - she skated in MK dance for years - loved them - got ruined by a sharpening and now is in something called an MK Special which has a long tail - had a bad fall due to that longer tail last week and wanted to go back to dance blades - chose the Finesse because of the price and also glowing reviews on the internet - we shall see!
Wait, did she get the Riedell Eclipse Dance blades or the Ultima Finesse synchro blades? You seem to imply both...
I'm still trying to decide on a blade for my new boots, and I'm trying to take my time and do my due diligence. After some reading I discovered that my favorite blades ever, John Wilson Hans Gershwilers (which are discontinued), were 7 foot rockers. I LOVED those blades, and I never could spin or do edge jumps the same when I switched to Pattern 99s. So, now I'm investigating blades with 7 foot rockers and the Riedell Eclipse Dance blades look interesting. I'm also looking at the MK Vision Synchro blades (I've decided I want some toe-pick and MK Dance will NOT do in that respect).
Any info you have on the Eclipse Dance, Finesse, or MK Vision Synchro blades (if anyone has them) is appreciated! Thanks.
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Wait, did she get the Riedell Eclipse Dance blades or the Ultima Finesse synchro blades? You seem to imply both...
I'm still trying to decide on a blade for my new boots, and I'm trying to take my time and do my due diligence. After some reading I discovered that my favorite blades ever, John Wilson Hans Gershwilers (which are discontinued), were 7 foot rockers. I LOVED those blades, and I never could spin or do edge jumps the same when I switched to Pattern 99s. So, now I'm investigating blades with 7 foot rockers and the Riedell Eclipse Dance blades look interesting. I'm also looking at the MK Vision Synchro blades (I've decided I want some toe-pick and MK Dance will NOT do in that respect).
Any info you have on the Eclipse Dance, Finesse, or MK Vision Synchro blades (if anyone has them) is appreciated! Thanks.
Ooops - yes my friend got the Reidell Eclipse, not the Finesse. She LOVES them and feels she is "back home" - she loved the MK Dance previously - I think the Eclipse is a MK Dance "knockoff" with that same rocker and pick profile of the MK Dance.
I have considered the Vision Synchro and the Ultima Synchro - I know that you can do more with the picks on those... I am looking for something that is just a smidge longer and more stable than the SuperDance 99 -
And isn't it a bite when your favorite blades are discontinued???? My favorite ever was called Wilson Dance - it was a Majestic with the backs cut off - had enough picks to do some single jumps and spins and was always comfortable to skate on. Have not liked a blade much since although I did okay in MK Dance for a while - until that pair was shot and the next pair also was fine for a while until the rocker on them was also shot.
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I skate on vision synchro. I'm happy, but not married to them. They were a 200% improvement over my flat as a pancake 25 yo professionals, and at a brilliant price point. I'm on my kindle now, which sucks for typing, so will give more details when I get to a proper keyboard.
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Ooops - yes my friend got the Reidell Eclipse, not the Finesse. She LOVES them and feels she is "back home" - she loved the MK Dance previously - I think the Eclipse is a MK Dance "knockoff" with that same rocker and pick profile of the MK Dance.
I have considered the Vision Synchro and the Ultima Synchro - I know that you can do more with the picks on those... I am looking for something that is just a smidge longer and more stable than the SuperDance 99 -
And isn't it a bite when your favorite blades are discontinued???? My favorite ever was called Wilson Dance - it was a Majestic with the backs cut off - had enough picks to do some single jumps and spins and was always comfortable to skate on. Have not liked a blade much since although I did okay in MK Dance for a while - until that pair was shot and the next pair also was fine for a while until the rocker on them was also shot.
Can you tell me if the Riedell Eclipse Dance blades have slightly bigger picks than the MK Dance? Like you said, I think they are supposed to be their version of the MK Dance but in pictures anyway the picks look a bit bigger. That could just be in pictures though...
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So my Vision Synchros.....like I said, I'm pretty happy with them, but I am open to experimenting still, too. They have good toepick. They're straight cut teeth though, and it doesn't take much for me make impressive pits (for my dance-only club who've never seen doubles or triples) in the ice. The drag pick is angled and a bit shorter, which took some getting used too, but now I like it, it really does stay out of the way a little more. Since I'll only ever jump for synchro, so only singles, that smaller pick doesn't really pose a problem for me. I actually also feel like I could pull a double out of it, assuming I could still do any of them. For you as a dancer, I imagine it'd be fine.
The blades are SHORT. In comparison to my team-mates and coaches blades, using the amount of tail that sticks out as a guide, they are shorter than MK Dance, Ultima Finesse and I'm pretty sure the CorDance. I don't step on my tails anymore, which is great, and my footwork is nice and tight. Buuu-uuut- I do fall off the back occasionally, and am constantly mindful of where my balance is. Ok, that's probably not really a bad thing, but sometimes I'd like to not be worried about it. If memory serves, I was able to fall of the back on my old blades, too from time to time, so maybe I have special skills.
I got these because I am from a freestyle background but doing only dance and synchro now. They seemed like a good mix with the shorter blade, and having a decent toepick. The toepicks, or lack thereof really, on MK Dance blades scare the bejeezus out of me. The VS also do have a nice curvy spin rocker on them.
They are good blades. I would certainly consider buying them again.
If you can afford it (the VS are an unbeatable price point), I'd also give a look to the Skate Science Synchro blades. Those intrigue me, and will very likely be on my list when it comes time to get new blades. They're a hybrid too, but lean more to the freestyle side of things than dance, which may or may not be of interest to you. I don't know the rocker on them, because they don't say, but apparently the guy answers his phone more readily than his emails, and is willing to talk about his products. Might be worth an exploration. They do a dance blade too, that someone in my rink has and is very happy with.
Good luck making your choice!
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Thanks for your input! It's funny, but I'd be switching from SuperDance 99s, which are noticeably shorter than any other blade as well, so having a really short tail probably wouldn't be all that different. However, these blades are going to be an inch smaller with my new boots so maybe more tail would be better...
I am only doing dance right now, but did love free skate back in the day, and the lack of toe pick on the dance blades really takes some getting used to. I'm not sure I'll ever be comfortable with it. Like you said, I am constantly mindful of where my balance is, and each and every time I get on the ice with them it takes me several minutes of skating backwards to find my balance. I always feel like I'm going to fall on my face. I don't know why I can't "remember" the feeling but I don't. The balance point is clearly in a different place than on any blade I've ever skated on. I just figured there was no reason NOT to get dance blades when I started back, and I definitely feel like my edges are better than in my Pattern 99s.
From what I've read people mostly seem to like the Vision Synchro blades. I've found nothing about the Finesse blades or the Eclipse Dance blades yet. I do think I'm leaning to the 7 foot rocker now though, thinking back to how much I loved my Hans Gershwilers. I learned all my doubles on those blades, and my edge jumps and spins went to he!! when I switched. :'(
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Can you tell me if the Riedell Eclipse Dance blades have slightly bigger picks than the MK Dance? Like you said, I think they are supposed to be their version of the MK Dance but in pictures anyway the picks look a bit bigger. That could just be in pictures though...
I will let you know. It strikes me that they might be bigger. I will look at them on Tuesday when I see her at the rink.
I also HATED the picks on the MK dance - I felt like I could never even do little picky hops on them - for Synchro back when I was wearing them - I always felt like I would slip. This was one of the reasons I liked the SuperDance 99 - they have better picks and I could do some jumps in them (back when I did jumps - now there is no jumping!) I could also spin in them but could never ever spin at all in the MK dance. AT ALL but I could spin in the SuperDance 99.
Interesting that you have the experience of not finding your balance point on the SuperDance - that is where I am at with them right now - it never occurred to me to try going backwards in them to find the balance point. I usually have to do a very long warmup starting with figures - outside and inside eight, then serpentine, then MAYBE back outside 8 - THEN lots and lots of swing rolls - before I feel really comfortable in them. I am also 60 years old and believe me the skills do go - and you get really scared of skating too fast - these blades have a tremendous run and speed but they are too much for me at times -
So the question of "Is it the blade or is it just me?" comes up a lot in my mind and in my discussions with my skating friends - all of whom are aging of course - 55+ - very good skaters a lot of them still doing very well and again, "Is it the blades or just me?"
streetsmart may I ask what level of dances you are doing? Nice to meet some other dance enthusiasts around this board!
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streetsmart may I ask what level of dances you are doing? Nice to meet some other dance enthusiasts around this board!
Well, I passed Gold dances way back when, and was working on Diamond dances (International dances?). Passed Ravensburger and Tango Romantica. I haven't done any ice dance for 20 years so we're starting slow, working on some junior silver and senior silvers (Starlight, Paso, Rocker Foxtrot, Tango, etc). What I really need to do is work on MITF, because while I feel okay dancing with a partner (sort of) my basic skills are REALLY rusty. There were no MITF when I quit so I don't even know where to start with them. I don't think I want to test them, just work through them. Intermediate looks like a good starting point I think.
I'm totally into ice dance now, and I used to hate watching it. Virtue and Moir won me over, and I now root for Weaver and Poje. Also, the french team that just won Cup of China was breathtaking!
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I will let you know. It strikes me that they might be bigger. I will look at them on Tuesday when I see her at the rink.
I saw the Eclipse Dance blade up close today - the picks are similar to the MK dance in shape but they are bigger and they are "pickier" they are not completely smoothed off at the sides like the MK Dance.
Hope that helps!
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So I thought I'd revive this thread to share some thoughts on my Vision Synchros.
For our end of the season gala, I'm jumping. Nothing big, just a waltz/loop combo, but the head coach (also a former freestyle skater it turns out) and I have been, ahem, playing around with the jumping thang, which has given me a chance to evaluate my blades for that.
The angled drag pick, for me turns out to be a big deal. Bear in mind, that my club is really dance only, so jumping is not something I do regularly. In fact, I have only been jumping for 2 sessions since the coach decided he and I were going to do this. I am just starting to feel almost comfortable, and still won't even do a waltz jump from any decent speed. [aside: man is it fun though, and I miss jumping]
That "angled drag pick" is really affecting me. I'm not a fan, but I also suspect that has as much to do with technique and lack of training as equipment preference. I have to very consciously point my toe (more than body memory does automatically) or I skid the landing (scary!!!). I have also missed the drag pick on take offs and had to quickly abort. Head coach was attempting axels, and I went to try one, but chickened out at the last second, mostly because of overall fear, but that short drag pick does scare me.
I bet a better skater won't have my issues.
The pick, drag pick aside is similar to a P99 and does leave big holes in the ice, at least as far as dancers are concerned. The day he and I were really playing around doing everything through lutzes, I got told about the holes. I thought that coach was joking but she was not :-[. In our gala program we're doing 1/2 flips. I get chastised about the holes every session. I just can't pick any more gently (plus it's backwards for me, so my pick is really weak), so now I'm faking the jump. As long as I'm in a dance only club, I'll be getting cross cut picks in the future, I think.
The shortness of the blade isn't really much of an issue, except when I'm doing power pulls. I am afraid of falling off the back, but really that's all about me and my improper technique and not something I'm going to blame on equipment.
I'm sure I've mentioned the spin rocker before, but for completeness I'll talk about it again. Like it. It was a definite improvement from my 25-year old, flat-as-a-pancake Professionals. I can spin just fine, no problems there.
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If you're using skates for rec use, I wouldn't worry too much about this/over think it. A good skate shop will set you up with what you need, most likely a lower level free skate blade with non-scary picks.
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If you're using skates for rec use, I wouldn't worry too much about this/over think it. A good skate shop will set you up with what you need, most likely a lower level free skate blade with non-scary picks.
Amy - wondering who you are responding to here?
Loops - thank you for your insights on the Vision Synchro - it sounds like you CAN jump in them but because of that angled drag pick, the takeoffs are difficult? I can totally see that!!
As far as falling off the backs when doing power pulls - I think in a shorter blade we all have to re-think the "skate near the back of the blade when going forward" (I'm guessing you meant forward power pulls) - in a dance blade you have to move that thought to the middle of the blade behind the rocker. You also really have to be down in your knees with shoulders over the hips (and not leaning back like I like to do because I'm tall and have a pretty pronounced lordosis) for those to work in a Dance/Synchro blade.
That being said I keep thinking of switching to a Synchro blade because I have heard that they are just a tad longer than my dance blades (SuperDance 99).
I also wanted to say that I think the idea of a rink being "all dance and Synchro" is such an awesome thing - BUT how and when do your Synchro skaters obtain and perfect the skills needed for the "Freestyle" aspects of Synchro - jumps, spins and lifts, etc. -
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Amy - wondering who you are responding to here?
Loops - thank you for your insights on the Vision Synchro - it sounds like you CAN jump in them but because of that angled drag pick, the takeoffs are difficult? I can totally see that!!
As far as falling off the backs when doing power pulls - I think in a shorter blade we all have to re-think the "skate near the back of the blade when going forward" (I'm guessing you meant forward power pulls) - in a dance blade you have to move that thought to the middle of the blade behind the rocker. You also really have to be down in your knees with shoulders over the hips (and not leaning back like I like to do because I'm tall and have a pretty pronounced lordosis) for those to work in a Dance/Synchro blade.
That being said I keep thinking of switching to a Synchro blade because I have heard that they are just a tad longer than my dance blades (SuperDance 99).
I also wanted to say that I think the idea of a rink being "all dance and Synchro" is such an awesome thing - BUT how and when do your Synchro skaters obtain and perfect the skills needed for the "Freestyle" aspects of Synchro - jumps, spins and lifts, etc. -
Forward take-offs. I have no trouble with my loop or salchow. My blades are pretty short. I haven't compared directly, but they seem shorter than the MK dance blades some of the skaters in my rink have. They are definitely shorter than CorDance. And you are right on with the f power pulls, when I get down in my knee and bend my ankle, the balance is better, I'm working all that out myself though, I get next to no coaching on moves like that. The back pulls I have no problem with.
So the all dance is a cool thing. Our synchro teams are all Division 2, (= non-elite track? They don't have to do the short program). So they don't really jump. But if they do, it's never more than the 1/2 rotation allowed in free dance. The remaining milestones are all done in a different order. The silver+ kids (translates roughly to Jr and Sr synchro) can spin decently. But not as well as freestyle skaters can. The bronze/pre-silver level kids are just learning camels, and most can do an OK sit. Never seen them do a layback or any catchfoot positions). I'm a pretty decent spinner and hold my own on that front, but they can all twizzle circles and around me, then switch feet/direction and twizzle some more while I stand there gobsmacked with awe. Lifts here are only allowed in synchro the Sr level, and they do those.
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Well, I will keep this in mind if I ever get new blades! Definitely sounds like the Vision Synchro will not be right for me! What size blades do you wear? It would be interesting to compare the length of the blades but the only way you can do it is if they are the same size of course.
I have had two pairs of MK Dance and one is 1/4 longer than the other - and my SuperDance 99s are I think at LEAST a 1/4 inch shorter than the shorter MK Dance - so I would love to go with a little longer than those longer MK Dance if possible.
And so itneresting about your dance and synchro club and the twizzles! That is great.
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Amy - wondering who you are responding to here?
Just a general thought. I thought the blade was mostly for rec skating? If so, that's my opinion :)
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Just a general thought. I thought the blade was mostly for rec skating? If so, that's my opinion :)
Well, this is the blade we were discussing I think:
http://www.iceandrollerskates.com/product/mk-blades-vision-synchro-ice-skates
I guess it depends on what you mean by recreational skater...
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Just a general thought. I thought the blade was mostly for rec skating? If so, that's my opinion :)
I think also, Amy1984, that if you go back and read through this entire thread, you'll see that the OP (Lutefisk) asked about synchro blades as a happy medium to dance or freestyle blades. It's a valid question. Not a lot of information is put out by the different blade manufacturers. Most people on this thread either use currently or have in the past used freestyle blades. A smaller percentage have direct experience with dance blades and even fewer of us have tried the synchro models. So it comes down to us users to share our firsthand experiences. I've learned a lot on this thread in particular (but from others in this forum as well) about different models of dance blades, and some more about freestyle blades. It's been useful, and I hope others have found so as well.
I'll certainly remember your advice next time I'm in the market for blades, but I think what IceDancer is getting at is that it's beyond the scope of this thread.
Well, I will keep this in mind if I ever get new blades! Definitely sounds like the Vision Synchro will not be right for me! What size blades do you wear? It would be interesting to compare the length of the blades but the only way you can do it is if they are the same size of course.
I have had two pairs of MK Dance and one is 1/4 longer than the other - and my SuperDance 99s are I think at LEAST a 1/4 inch shorter than the shorter MK Dance - so I would love to go with a little longer than those longer MK Dance if possible.
And so itneresting about your dance and synchro club and the twizzles! That is great.
Mine are a size 10. I do not know offhand how long the runner is. We're in end of season gala chaos mode, which is made worse by the fact that hockey has a tournament the weekend before our show. Of course hockey gets all priority so we're scrambling now to make up the lost rehearsal time. But I'll try to get some measurements of different people's dance blades. Mine stick out just maybe a 1/4- 1/2 inch from behind my heels. I feel like, in looking at my coach's MK Dance, hers stick out further, but that could also have a lot to do with boot model, so I'll see what I can learn.
If you're not doing any jumping, I wouldn't rule these out. The shortened drag is cleaner- I scratch less for sure; they keep me honest. Until the jumping started three weeks ago, I was very OK with them. Although admittedly, I had been thinking recently that I'll go with a freestyle model for the next time (subject to change without notification). But I do like the short tail- I was the queen of stepping on it, and that problem has gone away. I wouldn't complain if it were a smidge longer though, that's also true.
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Mine are a size 10. I do not know offhand how long the runner is. We're in end of season gala chaos mode, which is made worse by the fact that hockey has a tournament the weekend before our show. Of course hockey gets all priority so we're scrambling now to make up the lost rehearsal time. But I'll try to get some measurements of different people's dance blades. Mine stick out just maybe a 1/4- 1/2 inch from behind my heels. I feel like, in looking at my coach's MK Dance, hers stick out further, but that could also have a lot to do with boot model, so I'll see what I can learn.
If you're not doing any jumping, I wouldn't rule these out. The shortened drag is cleaner- I scratch less for sure; they keep me honest. Until the jumping started three weeks ago, I was very OK with them. Although admittedly, I had been thinking recently that I'll go with a freestyle model for the next time (subject to change without notification). But I do like the short tail- I was the queen of stepping on it, and that problem has gone away. I wouldn't complain if it were a smidge longer though, that's also true.
Oh shoot! I wear a 10 1/4 - I was hoping (beyond hope) you could measure yours and compare... as far as where they stick out beyond the heel - it really depends on how the heel of your boot is cut, if that makes any sense.
Also wondering about the drag pick angle - scratching is less - going backwards? I have to say that has never been a problem for me - but of course I've been wearing dance blades for over twenty years so maybe I don't remember what I used to do in my old "freestyle blade" days - but on the SuperDance the drag pick is also small - maybe angled but I definitely can't "find" it when I need it although ... I used to be able to do waltz jumps in them but find now that the whole idea of jumping just freaks me out - probably has more to do with losing skills as I age as anything else.
I originally got Dance blades when I fell with my coach doing the 14-step - on the mohawk - I stepped on my blades and we went down - on the way down - he is basically on top of me saying, "Get Dance blades" and so I did LOL I have never looked back although those first dance blades (Wilson Dance) were definitely my favorite and I have been lamenting ever since they "died" in the late '90s - wishing they still made them - they were just a tad longer and I felt a lot more comfortable on them - but I can also say the same about my old SP Teri's compared to my "new" (10-year-old) ones.
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We're in end of season gala chaos mode, which is made worse by the fact that hockey has a tournament the weekend before our show. Of course hockey gets all priority
Oh. I thought hockey was mostly a U.S./Canada thing - that the French would have more common sense than us.
C'est la vie.