Author Topic: Skater relationship with a coach (Read 30298 times)

AgnesNitt · « **Reply #50 on:** March 02, 2011, 08:40:37 PM »

Okay, so we add a new paragraph "When to mind your own business".

Sk8tmum · « **Reply #51 on:** March 02, 2011, 09:02:43 PM »

You mind your own business when it's none of your business. Skaters progress at their own rate; skaters and parents have different goals; people with learning and physical differences do NOT want people poking into their business with comments like, "oh, she can't do [insert here] yet?" or, "you know, if you just took her to [insert doctor, physio, coach here] she would do so much better." Unless you have a close personal relationship, and even then recognizing that many people are very private in terms of these things, stay out of personal territory. My older DD has had to hold her head high on many occasions when snotty brats [sorry, venting] and/or their parents make caustic comments about her inability to do certain things on the ice; she doesn't wear a sign around her neck that says SORRY I BROKE MY LEG REALLY BADLY AS A KID AND SO I CAN'T USE IT PROPERLY - and she doesnt want any pity. Note that she is also a Gold level (top level) skater in Canada, an evaluator, and a judge ... just not Gold in freeskate, yet, and maybe never, because that darned leg just won't do some things that she would really like it to do! You know the comments ... "I got my double in 3 months - how long have YOU been working on it? REALLY?" or "wow, I can't believe you took THAT long to do ", or, "but, everybody can do [insert here]."

Basically, if we want your advice, we'll ask for it. If, however, you see a coach or someone else doing something illegal, then come forward to the appropriate authorities - whether it be sexual, drug related, abusive, etc. Don't gossip behind the coaches' back, and don't drop snide comments about the coach ... if you think something is seriously wrong, be prepared to stand up and come forward about it.

And, as a Special Education teacher: most of my beloved kids want to fit in. They don't want your pity, or to be labelled, or criticized, or pointed at, or presented with "miracle cures" or "stories about their cousins' child who did [insert here] and everything was great" - particularly from people outside of their own circle. They want to do stuff without being made to feel uncomfortable or "failures", and they also don't want to be patronized or smarmed over. They're not freaks - they're people who are struggling with challelenges many of us can never comprehend, and God Bless those who let them succeed in their own way!

[as usual, putting soapbox back under the sink where it lives]

Isk8NYC · « **Reply #52 on:** March 02, 2011, 09:07:54 PM »

Quote from: AgnesNitt on March 02, 2011, 08:40:37 PM

Okay, so we add a new paragraph "When to mind your own business".

I didn't know you were keeping track!

Quote

If, however, you see a coach or someone else doing something illegal, then come forward to the appropriate authorities - whether it be sexual, drug related, abusive, etc. Don't gossip behind the coaches' back, and don't drop snide comments about the coach ... if you think something is seriously wrong, be prepared to stand up and come forward about it.

Agnes-Put this on the list, too, please!

Thanks Sk8tmum for the sensitivity lecture. It was accurate and clear.

AgnesNitt · « **Reply #53 on:** March 02, 2011, 09:12:26 PM »

Yes, lots of interesting comments that deserve to be addressed. I never realized for example that 'group coach' versus 'private coach' needed to be clarified, or that such a strong 'Mind your own business' discussion would come out of poaching/soliciting. And the poaching / soliciting sub-thread revealed subtleties worth commenting on. And more.

And sk8mum, good call on the illegal activities issue. As my rink just lost a well thought of coach for kiddie porn (no one knew, he kept it out of the rink, it was a police sting) I'm aware of how disturbing it can be.

Sk8Dreams · « **Reply #54 on:** March 02, 2011, 09:42:56 PM »

Quote from: Teresa on February 28, 2011, 11:27:00 PM

I agree with the poster that said you can't take a student that doesn't want to go. (poaching)

Yes & No. I've had the unfortunate experience of seeing parents switch their kids, who were doing just fine, from one coach to another because of hype. This particular forum is public, so I can't go into details, but a concerted effort was made to solicit kids and it has worked in quite a few cases. I know all of the coaches & kids & parents involved (I'm not involved, just a witness), and what I saw was sneaky, underhanded, unethical, and hurtful both emotionally and financially. I have a lot of respect for the parents who were not blinded by the bling. There are times when figure skating totally disgusts me.

jjane45 · « **Reply #55 on:** March 03, 2011, 12:43:08 AM »

Learn something new everyday! It's really helpful to hear different opinions and thank you very much for the information on special skaters and sensitivity analysis.

In the crossover example I mentioned, the skater's mother went into her concerns on lack of progress etc. and the talk about basic skills followed as group lesson coach made skaters do crossover circles.

MYOB, like skater-coach relationship, also has gray areas. Some things are subjective judgments (you've been skating for years and can't do a decent crossover?!) and some things are objective, widely accepted standards (crossovers are the basics of basics in figure skating). I will never have problems pointing out the importance of crossovers if the conversation warrants so. New skaters or parents are not stupid, but they could be in total darkness for a long time and the cost is huge. I am still fighting muscle memory on cheated crossovers and can't imagine how difficult it is to fix ingrained flutzes after finding it out the hard way.

I am grateful for my public skating buddies who showed me tons of mohawks when I struggled, pointed out I was practicing in a dangerous way, that my toe loop was cheated, that rink pro shop knows nothing about figure skate sharpening etc. etc. Okay giving skating tips to others is another sensitive topic, but I was obviously in need of help and appreciated every bit of information. They were not 100% correct yet gave helpful perspectives that I would not have known before.

To this day I help new skaters on publics IF he or she is clearly struggling, ask "are you OK" when there is a huge crash, or tell people about soakers if it's obvious they store skates in hard guards. Care and attention build community, and those who don't need the extra help smile and say "no, thanks".

Opinions vary, and I accept it =)

drskater · « **Reply #56 on:** March 04, 2011, 11:37:03 AM »

OMG--re-reading this thread with new interest...

My husband and I just found out that we'll be moving to the Washington, DC area. It is a good move for us both in terms of jobs, but I'm terrified of the whole process of finding a new coach and rink!

When I told my current beloved Pro that I was moving I broke down in tears. :'( It feels like a death; not at all like a shift in a business relationship. Maybe this is an inaccurate comparison, but the transition feels like losing a darling pet--and then thinking about getting a new one while the wounds are still fresh. I know I will always be friends with my coach and that I will miss her terribly.

Skating is too important to us to give up, and we're actually going to figure in rink location in our decision where we'll live--most likely Northern Virginia but possibly MD. If anyone has experience and or strong opinions about particular rinks, could you please share? Please feel free to PM me. I guess I'm looking for some reassurance here...

AgnesNitt · « **Reply #57 on:** March 04, 2011, 12:56:07 PM »

I've skated at a lot of excellent rinks and from what I'm told there are world class coaches in the DC area.

Why not take a two week vacation before you move and look for a house while checking out the rinks?

At least two (Mt Vernon is one) have weeknight adult sessions.

sk8tegirl06 · « **Reply #58 on:** March 04, 2011, 01:55:06 PM »

Quote from: drskater on March 04, 2011, 11:37:03 AM

OMG--re-reading this thread with new interest...

My husband and I just found out that we'll be moving to the Washington, DC area. It is a good move for us both in terms of jobs, but I'm terrified of the whole process of finding a new coach and rink!

When I told my current beloved Pro that I was moving I broke down in tears. :'( It feels like a death; not at all like a shift in a business relationship. Maybe this is an inaccurate comparison, but the transition feels like losing a darling pet--and then thinking about getting a new one while the wounds are still fresh. I know I will always be friends with my coach and that I will miss her terribly.

Skating is too important to us to give up, and we're actually going to figure in rink location in our decision where we'll live--most likely Northern Virginia but possibly MD. If anyone has experience and or strong opinions about particular rinks, could you please share? Please feel free to PM me. I guess I'm looking for some reassurance here...

You've got mail

Sk8tmum · « **Reply #59 on:** March 04, 2011, 01:55:43 PM »

Quote from: drskater on March 04, 2011, 11:37:03 AM

When I told my current beloved Pro that I was moving I broke down in tears. :'( It feels like a death; not at all like a shift in a business relationship. Maybe this is an inaccurate comparison, but the transition feels like losing a darling pet--and then thinking about getting a new one while the wounds are still fresh. I know I will always be friends with my coach and that I will miss her terribly.

When we moved, our kids lost their beloved LTS coach - sort of. Over the years, we've kept in touch with e-mail, pictures sent, updates; met up when we can; and generally included her in all of their successes. It means a lot to them that they've maintained that tie, and it's someone important to celebrate successes with. Every so often, they go back and "show off" what they've learnt, and everyone feels great about it.

We also asked for a reference/recommendation for a new coach and club before we left. The skating world is small on many fronts ... and coaches often know of someone, or know someone who WILL know, who can help out with choices. Just a thought; plus, it's nice for the current coach to be asked, as it makes them feel like they are important and their opinion is valued ... plus allowing them to contribute in a meaningful way.

fsk8r · « **Reply #60 on:** March 04, 2011, 02:15:33 PM »

Quote from: Sk8tmum on March 04, 2011, 01:55:43 PM

We also asked for a reference/recommendation for a new coach and club before we left. The skating world is small on many fronts ... and coaches often know of someone, or know someone who WILL know, who can help out with choices. Just a thought; plus, it's nice for the current coach to be asked, as it makes them feel like they are important and their opinion is valued ... plus allowing them to contribute in a meaningful way.

The skating world is very small. I managed to get a recommendation for a transatlantic coach, and I've got another one now transpacific (for when I decide to move to Australia). Bizarrely every free coach I've had can be traced back to the original one. There's a connection there, even if I didn't know it at the time.
It's worth asking for the recommendation, as it's really nice to have a connection when you first arrive and it helps maintain the relationship with the old.

sk8lady · « **Reply #61 on:** March 04, 2011, 04:32:05 PM »

Quote from: sk8lady on March 01, 2011, 04:20:40 PM

Actually, the succedaneum coach (i.e., my current coach) was the skating director both at the rink I regularly skate at and my former coach's rink, which was probably why she was able to get a response!

It was a Natl. Spelling Bee championship word a few years ago and my husband didn't believe I could use it in everyday life.
First time I've used it in a forum but it's in my work reports fairly often!

Isk8NYC · « **Reply #62 on:** March 04, 2011, 04:36:51 PM »

In the "A Series of Unfortunate Events" book series, the next-to-last book was "The Penultimate Peril." (Illiteration was in all the titles.) I had to look it up in a dictionary when I read the title on B&N's website, because I had never read/heard the word "penultimate," which means next-to-last.

fsk8r · « **Reply #63 on:** March 05, 2011, 12:38:29 AM »

and so what does succedaneum or do I need to find a dictionary?
I wonder if penultimate is an English English word, rather like fortnight, rather than a American English word?

Thread drift...

Query · « **Reply #64 on:** March 05, 2011, 09:58:20 AM »

Since you still have a coach for the moment, as per the subject of this thread, we aren't allowed to give you recommendations on a new coach! Students aren't allowed to solicit for their coaches - the coach can get in trouble with the PSA if we do.

Once that ends, I would be happy to send you the names of some good coaches I know - but it depends a lot on where you will live and work. And, as I sent in my message, clubs and rinks often list coach bios.

AgnesNitt · « **Reply #65 on:** March 05, 2011, 10:08:00 AM »

Quote from: Query on March 05, 2011, 09:58:20 AM

Since you still have a coach for the moment, as per the subject of this thread, we aren't allowed to give you recommendations on a new coach! Students aren't allowed to solicit for their coaches - the coach can get in trouble with the PSA if we do.

Query, she's already informed her coach she's leaving.

Isk8NYC · « **Reply #66 on:** March 05, 2011, 10:54:06 AM »

Quote from: Query on March 05, 2011, 09:58:20 AM

Since you still have a coach for the moment, as per the subject of this thread, we aren't allowed to give you recommendations on a new coach! Students aren't allowed to solicit for their coaches - the coach can get in trouble with the PSA if we do.

Once that ends, I would be happy to send you the names of some good coaches I know - but it depends a lot on where you will live and work. And, as I sent in my message, clubs and rinks often list coach bios.

It's amazing - three pages of posts explaining the rules and why they exist but you still don't get it, do you?
Perhaps instead of writing snarky little jibes at the PSA rules and those who follow the rules, you should buy a clue.
Giving out invalid information and advice isn't the way to establish yourself as a knowledgeable expert.

She's already informed her coach that she's moving, and she ASKED for recommendations from knowledgeable people.
That covers the two main rules - 1) Tell the coach first and 2) MYOB unless asked.
All she has to do is evaluate and take a few trial lessons with the coaches that are recommended, and she's all set with no drama.
See what happens when you follow the rules? It's so easy to switch coaches without anything more than sadness (in this case)

drskater · « **Reply #67 on:** March 05, 2011, 12:31:24 PM »

Quote from: Query on March 05, 2011, 09:58:20 AM

Since you still have a coach for the moment, as per the subject of this thread, we aren't allowed to give you recommendations on a new coach! Students aren't allowed to solicit for their coaches - the coach can get in trouble with the PSA if we do.

Once that ends, I would be happy to send you the names of some good coaches I know - but it depends a lot on where you will live and work. And, as I sent in my message, clubs and rinks often list coach bios.

Yikes!I do NOT want to hijack this thread! Thanks to everyone who sent me info about DC area rinks. There are only two rinks where I live--you don't know how lucky you are!

To clarify: I never asked for coach recommendations! I can handle that situation in the appropriate way at the appropriate time. I never would've announced I was "leaving" my Pro without first telling her. In fact, I asked her to move with me, but (alas) she declined (ha ha).

davincisop · « **Reply #68 on:** March 06, 2011, 11:48:38 AM »

I know with my coach she helps all her students outside of lessons (she seems to help me a lot, she says I'm catching onto moves very quickly (working on silver and just started training with her back in August) and will come over and say "Let me see how this looks". She's wonderful and probably my number 1 reason (next to being very close to my family) that I didn't pursue up and leaving and moving to Chicago or somewhere after I graduated college in December. I couldn't bear the thought of trying to find another coach that is as attentive as she is. On publics on Saturdays after we both teach LTS we just go to the center and play around and she's got 2 other students (one in LTS who is SO eager to learn and one that just switched to privates) and we all practice and she helps us fix things and we just have fun. We also look out for the kids that have no idea to watch out for someone spinning.

We all help each other outside of class, too. One of my friends is working on three turns, and she's scared to get on her edge, so I will do one that maps out where the turn should be and then offer a hand on one end, and then after she turns her arm has to touch the other hand (it's a trick my coach YEARS ago back when I first started would have me do just so I had some sort of support behind me). I always worry a little bit about helping her but my coach has seen me helping her in those ways and has never said anything about it. She's someone who would tell me if I shouldn't. I never overstep my boundaries by teaching new moves though. I've passed all of the moves this girl is working on and I just lend her a hand because she is very scared to do things sometimes, and I just offer encouragement when she does them well.

My friends (who are also students of hers) have given me tips on backspins as well (just showing me how they do theirs and their methods of entry so I could try them all) and helped me find the sweet spot for that. Five months in to learning that I'm just now finding it lol.

But I have such a supportive coach who pushes me and encourages me to the point that I can't imagine myself with another one. Heck she even corralled little kids into a corner during my testing so I didn't worry about having to dodge them.

Sierra · « **Reply #69 on:** March 06, 2011, 02:50:23 PM »

Quote from: davincisoprano1 on March 06, 2011, 11:48:38 AM

But I have such a supportive coach who pushes me and encourages me to the point that I can't imagine myself with another one.

I feel the same way, davincisoprano. I think the most important thing about the coach is not the technical, written-in-a-rule things, but your actual, personal connection with them. Sometimes I wonder if I would still be skating if my coach hadn't been around.

davincisop · « **Reply #70 on:** March 06, 2011, 03:39:29 PM »

Quote from: Sierra on March 06, 2011, 02:50:23 PM

I feel the same way, davincisoprano. I think the most important thing about the coach is not the technical, written-in-a-rule things, but your actual, personal connection with them. Sometimes I wonder if I would still be skating if my coach hadn't been around.

Well I know for me when I was younger I had a very nice supportive coach who had to stop coaching because her job was getting in the way. But I remembered seeing other children get yelled at by some of the other coaches (one of them scared the absolute living daylights out of me) and so when I came to my current rink I was looking at some of the coaches there knowing I wanted to find one I could get along with and not be scared of or yell at me lol. I was working on spins and my current coach came up, offered some pointers and gave me her business card. Actually I got her business card about 5 times between the first one and when I was finally able to afford taking lessons lol.

She knew though once I went into LTS as a refresher that I was planning on taking lessons from her, I just had to get my job at the rink first and earn some money. She was very patient and it paid off.

aussieskater · « **Reply #71 on:** March 06, 2011, 08:31:11 PM »

Quote from: davincisoprano1 on March 06, 2011, 03:39:29 PM

I was working on spins and my current coach came up, offered some pointers and gave me her business card. Actually I got her business card about 5 times between the first one and when I was finally able to afford taking lessons lol.

I'm glad she's so great for you. Good coaches are like good coffee - sometimes hard to find!

Not being in the US so I'm genuinely not sure: does davinci's experience count as "soliciting" per the US PSA rules? I'm not sure whether it would be allowed here in relation to skaters who don't have a coach - AFAIK, it's prohibited by APSA (the Australian PSA) rules if there's already a coach in place.

Isk8NYC · « **Reply #72 on:** March 06, 2011, 08:35:35 PM »

Yes, if the skater has obviously had lessons before, as in this case, offering tips and giving her a business card for private lessons is soliciting. You have to assume that the skater already has a coach. You can always ask if you're not certain. However, it sounds like davincisoprano had made it clear that she didn't already have a coach and that she welcomed the free lessons, so no harm, no foul.

Quote from: aussieskater on March 06, 2011, 08:31:11 PM

Not being in the US so I'm not sure: does this count as "soliciting" per the PSA rules?

BTW, the Australian Professional Skater's Association Incorporated (APSA) has a code of ethics that's very similar to the PSA's. That includes the 'no soliciting' and 'new coach asks old coach first' rules.
http://www.apsa.net.au/Documents/APSA/2011/APSA%20Inc%20%20Code%20of%20Ethics.pdf

aussieskater · « **Reply #73 on:** March 06, 2011, 08:39:22 PM »

Thanks Isk8NYC - I had just pressed send on an edit (to add notes re Aust rules) when your response came in.

Isk8NYC · « **Reply #74 on:** March 06, 2011, 08:54:45 PM »

Was this link posted yet? http://www.skatepsa.com/PDF%20Documents/What%20are%20Solicitation,Promotion%20and%20Tampering.pdf

I stand corrected - Query's being undermined by another is really tampering, not solicitation. Still wrong, just has a different label.

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Author Topic: Skater relationship with a coach (Read 30298 times)