Jackson Ultima Protege UB40 blades - a close look

[Bill_S]

I ordered a set of Jackson Ultima Protege UB40 blades from Kinzie's Closet last Friday, and they came drop-shipped from Canada today. The $140 Protege is a lower mid-level blade, but is rated for doubles. I only do singles anymore, so that won't concern me. I was attracted to the advertised 8' rocker because my much-loved old Coronation Aces had been worn to that rocker over the years, and I was used to the feel.

I'm currently on a set of MK Professional blades, put on this week for testing. The Protege will be the next pair tested on my old boots, now sporting very perforated soles from all the different screw holes while testing blades. The thread for my comparison between the MK Professionals and Coronation Aces is here http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8417.0

Starting with an overall photo of the Jackson Ultima Protege blade...



The toe picks are straight-cut and substantial. The Protege is on the left, a Coronation Ace on the right...



Too bad that I'm not much of a jumper anymore.

The blades weigh close to 356 grams each on my triple-beam balance, and that is near to the MK Pros at 355 grams and Aces at 360 grams.



The blades are a bit thinner than either the Aces or Pros. The left blade measured 0.153" at the spin rocker, 0.150" at mid length, and 0.151" at the rear stanchion. The Aces and MK Pros were around 0.160 inch. This may require a little more fussing around with extra tape if I sharpen them with my hand-held Pro-Filer.

The blades were sharpened to a seriously keen edge at the factory. I don't know the ROH used, but I'll try them as-is. The Aces and MK Pros were nowhere near this sharp from the factory.

The crisp edge was protected with a plastic edge guard with the Jackson name molded in.



Nice touch!

[Bill_S]

Continuing with the close look, one aspect contributing to the lower price compared to $229 Aces is the finish of the mounting plates. They are stamped steel, and the mounting side is still fairly rough metal without the polish given to the Aces. The tooling marks from manufacturing are still visible. It was probably given a bead blast, then plated over.



The difference is obvious when Aces (rear) and the Proteges are placed next to each other...



It is only cosmetic and won't affect anything. This gets placed against the sole when mounted and won't be visible. If you're going to save a little money, that's a smart place to do it.

Here are the mounting plates for the Protege. The front plate has more mounting holes than Aces or MK Pros...





The screws that ship with the blades look to be stainless and of good quality.  I've seen abysmal fasteners included with other blades. I hope that this improvement is a trend among manufacturers.

[Bill_S]

Some numbers now...

The heel lift measures 0.9" when the blade is rocked forward on a flat surface to touch the first pick.

That is less than the Aces or Pros at ~1.3" lift. The rocker is supposed to be a flatter 8', so perhaps this is part of the reason. Jackson uses 8' rockers for many of their blades. My worn-down 2007 Aces still have 1.1" heel lift even with the current 8' rocker on them. The smaller lift with the Protege blades might mean that I snag my toe picks more often.

There is another measurement that might contribute to this too, and that is...

Stanchion height

Blade       Front     Rear
MK Pro     1.856"    1.894"
Ace          1.876"    1.881"
Protege    1.931"    2.056"

Wow! They have a high rear stanchion. That will tilt boots forward. I'd better buy better elbow pads for when I snag the toe picks. However, because both stanchions are higher, I'll have good boot clearance on deep leans.

The perspective in this photo hides the difference in rear stanchion height, but shows a very different "attitude" when the Ace (rear) and the Protege (front) are rested on their blade. Note the difference in the drag pick height among other things.



I've traced the blades, so I'll make a visual rocker comparison with another blade in a future post. I'll also take measurements of the blade for computing the rocker radii.

I suspect that with the observations made so far, that this blade will feel very alien to me.

[Loops]

I like this project you have going on!  Do you have a local shop that would be willing to loan you some of their stock blades for these measures?

[Bill_S]

There is no shop closer than 75 miles from here. That won't be a possibility, unfortunately.

[tstop4me]

The blades weigh close to 356 grams each on my triple-beam balance, and that is near to the MK Pros at 355 grams and Aces at 360 grams.

Ah, gnurdy nostalgic memories of the Ohaus Triple Beam Balance.  I bought one way back in high school for science fair projects.  Still squirreled away in a closet (I've since gone digital).  Back in the 70's, bong shops started sprouting up around campus.  I'd break up laughing when I saw ad posters on their windows proudly proclaiming, "We carry Ohaus Triple Beam Balances!!!"

[Query]

Wow! They have a high rear stanchion. That will tilt boots forward. I'd better buy better elbow pads for when I snag the toe picks. However, because both stanchions are higher, I'll have good boot clearance on deep leans.

You can shim the front mounting plate so it is higher too, taking the toe pick further off the ice. But see my

  http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8417.msg100665#msg100665

regarding the possible effect on riding the tail.

However, that will also affect which portion of the blade is horizontal, and the forwards/back tilt of the rest of the blade, so may affect where you tend to ride on the blade, and you may need to change your technique a little.

[Bill_S]

I compared the blade tracing to the MK Professional blade today.



Comparing the rocker shape, it appears to have a very similar spin rocker to the MK Pro blades. The flatter 8" main rocker of the Protege (shown in red) is very evident toward the rear of the blade.

In Photoshop, I rotated the tracings to align the drag picks and spin rockers. Note that the rear of the Protege is higher in the illustration compared to the MK Pro profile when spin rockers are aligned. The higher rear stanchion of the Protege will provide this mechanically when mounted, so maybe the stanchion geometry won't affect the "feel" as much as I feared. I won't know until I get them mounted and used on ice.

I also placed a straight edge against the sides of both blades, and both are dead straight. That's good to know.

[Bill_S]

I measured the rocker of the Protege today, and also measured the rocker of a set of Ultima Synchro blades UB60 from around 2013. There's a similarity between these two blades that I'll call the "Canadian house curve", compared to the British MK and Wilson blades.

When I measure blade rockers, I contact the mounting plates against the rear of the support block on the fixture. If there's a difference in stanchion height between front and back stanchions, it will be realized as a rotated graph for those blades.

You can see the underside of the blade mounting plates contacting the rear of the wooden mounting block in this picture...



Both Jackson blades had proportionally higher rear stanchions than the MK or Wilson blades. That's why the curves reach their lowest point further back along the blade, and why the toe measurements seem higher in the graph below. Probably next week sometime, I will test how this feels to a skater and how I adapt (or not) to the "Canadian house curve".

I've included rocker curves in the graph for the MK Professional and a 2019 Coronation Ace to compare to the two Jackson blades. We'll call that grouping the "British house curve".

Both Jackson blades have a main rocker of ~88", or 7.33 feet. It's not quite the 8" rocker as advertised, but sharpenings over time will certainly flatten it to 8".

The Protege blade has a spin rocker radius of 14.4", measured from 1.25" to 2.5" away from the pick root. That distance is an arbitrary selection estimated to be close to that when the pick drags the ice during a scratch spin.

The Ultima Synchro blade has a spin rocker radius of 17.4" measured at the same span.

[Click to make bigger]

[Query]

Does that cool jig for measuring precise rocker let you reverse the skate orientation, so you can tell if you get the same rocker curvature off both sides of the blade?

[Bill_S]

Yes, a blade can be reversed for measuring. I assume that slight differences in mounting would rotate one graph compared to another. Without perfectly flat, co-planer mounting plates with exactly the same stanchion heights among all blades tested, graph rotation when comparing different blades is unavoidable.

The shape of the rockers is fairly accurate, but their rotational placement on the graph is something that can't quite be controlled easily. I do normalize the numbers in a spreadsheet to place the lowest part of the rockers at the y-axis zero. That helps with the comparison but doesn't solve the rotation issue.

[Bill_S]

I mounted the Ultima Protege blades today, and I'm ready for testing tomorrow.

I ran into a little issue when mounting them. Unlike the Ace and the MK Pro blades that I've been experimenting with, the mounting plates of the Protege blades are symmetrical and are identical between left and right blades.

I thought that would be an advantage, but when I mounted them on my 2007 Goldstars and aligned the blade, the mounting plates extend a little beyond the soles on the inside.





People who have the blade positioned a little more inside of center (i.e. to correct for pronation) would see this even more. I have mine aligned almost dead on with the stitched seam at the center front of the boot. I supinate a bit.



The issue, while minor, leaves me a bit disappointed.

I'll tolerate that if they are somehow superior to the other blades performance-wise.

From my perspective, of course.

[Bill_S]

I skated on these blades this morning.

First, I want to preface my remarks by saying that you like what you are used to. I've been on British blades since early this century (sounds old, doesn't it!). That's what I am used to.

Now for my experience with these blades. To sum it up, they are coming off my boots right away. The feel is considerably different than the Wilson or MK blades that I've been on recently.

Stroking: While both stanchions are higher than either the Aces or Professionals, the rear stanchion in particular is proportionally higher. I felt this difference even walking with guards to get to the ice. It felt like I had weight on my heel. Stroking on them also felt like I was over on my heel - at first. I did get used to that by the end of the session. Skating backwards felt mostly the same, but for some reason, I ended up scratching the toe picks frequently. Toward the end of today's session, it was better but still not great.

I felt the overall higher stanchion height at first, and it tended to torque the boot into pronation when pressing hard. By the end, I either tweaked my technique, or just became accustomed to it. I didn't feel it after a while.

For me, stroking was the easiest aspect of all these new blades to get used to.

Three turns: This was the best part of the experience with these blades. I stayed in the "sweet spot" longer when doing three turns, and in particular, when doing traveling threes. I did get onto picks if I wasn't careful.

Glide: These rocker of these blades is a bit flatter than either the new Aces or the new MK Pro blades that I had on previously. The factory ROH is likely larger than my usual 3/8" ROH. The blades are also slightly thinner material. Because of this combination, I noticed a small increase in glide when I was on the center of the blade. It's not profoundly different by any means, but it was there.

Spins: Here's where my long term experience with other, non-Jackson blades hurt me. It felt VERY alien at first, but when I did manage to get over the blade to spin, I traveled and scratched heavily with the picks. I didn't adapt well to these in the 1-1/2 hours I was at the rink. I'm sure that it could be learned over time, but the MK Professional blades suited my spinning the best.

I just wish that the MK Pros had the flatter 8" (nominal) rocker. These Protege blades better suited my three turns with their flatter main rocker.

I was going to try the Ultima Synchro blades next, but because they have measured similarities with the Ultima Protege, I won't bother. By now, I can estimate how a blade feels by the graphs and tracings.

Looks like I like the "British house curve" the best. No wonder though, I've been on them for nearly 20 years.

[Bill_S]

And now I'm trying to decide what to do next...



I'd like to test another blade, but what? I wonder if the Riedell Eclipse Aurora (Ace clone) will have the spin rocker of the new-style blades, or the older ones? It's still a 7' rocker, so I know that I probably won't like that as well as something with an 8' main rocker.

I like the MK and Wilson style blades, but their offerings with an 8' rocker get really expensive, and most have blades not suitable for hand-sharpening.

[tstop4me]

I'd like to test another blade, but what? I wonder if the Riedell Eclipse Aurora (Ace clone) will have the spin rocker of the new-style blades, or the older ones? It's still a 7' rocker, so I know that I probably won't like that as well as something with an 8' main rocker.

I like the MK and Wilson style blades, but their offerings with an 8' rocker get really expensive, and most have blades not suitable for hand-sharpening.

Compared to the Wilson CA, the Eclipse Aurora has a flatter spin rocker (spin rocker radius = 23", according to info I got from Eclipse) and lower heel lift.

You seem to prefer the MK Pro spin rocker over the Wilson CA spin rocker.  If you want to stick to genuine Wilson/MK, and retain an MK-Pro-like spin rocker but with an 8' radius main rocker, your only option would be the Wilson Gold Seal (according to Paramount's analyses of spin rockers).  That comes currently only in a tapered and side-honed edge configuration (a discontinued parabolic version is still available from online sellers).  Won't work with the Pro-Filer as-is.

If you think you can live with the Wilson CA spin rocker, however, you have two options.  One is the advanced Wilson Pattern 99, which has a parallel edge configuration.  It sells for ~$500.  The other is the Wilson Coronation Comet.  Similar to the Coronation Ace, but with an 8.5' radius main rocker.  It's been discontinued; but I checked several online sellers, and they have 10-1/4" available (not at Kinzies though).  Prices range from ~$210 - $240 (which I think was about the regular full price; I would have thought there would be bargain-basement clearance prices by now, since it was discontinued at least 2 yrs ago).

[MCsAngel2]

If you can swing it, I’d be really curious to read what you think about the Pattern 99. Your comparisons of all these blades has been so cool.

[mystery905]

I would be curious what you think of the Ultima Legacy 7, which I am using now.  I have difficulty spinning with them, but that might because of my lack of technique.  Wondering if going to MK Pros might help...

[FigureSpins]

And now I'm trying to decide what to do next...

What an interesting new hobby you have!  You need to publish this as an ebook!

[FigureSpins]

I thought (and I could be wrong) that the next-step blade from MK Pro's was the Pattern 99 and similarly, CorAce leads to Gold Seal.  Interesting that people suggest the transition crosses the nominal brands.

The Eclipse Aurora is Riedell's clone for the JW Coronation Ace now, but the Eclipse Mist was their original model.  It's been discontinued, but several places have it on clearance.  (Kinzie's Closet, for example.)

[Bill_S]

I'd run out of funds before I could have enough data for a proper eBook. It's here for anyone to read anyway.

mystery905: Thanks for the suggestion. Can you measure the height of your Legacy 7 blades at the two stanchions? Just rough reading with a ruler will do. I'm curious why Jackson used such long stanchions, especially at the rear, for the synchro blade and the Protege. I am curious if that's a trend across their population of Ultima blades.

Perhaps they were designed for skates with a shorter heel, or if it's something the designers found advantageous once a skater got used to the higher heel stanchion. Keep in mind that spins are difficult no matter what blades are used. It's certainly an advantage for the young to learn spins, and to be able to adapt quickly to different blade designs.

tstop4me and MCsAngel: I have been looking at the Pattern 99 for a while. I might scrape up the funds to try that blade, plus get a dance blade. The Riedell Eclipse dance blade looks to be a carbon copy of the MK unit, right down to the blunted picks.

The Coronation Comet sounds attractive. There's a young coach here at my rink who wears them. If I spring for them instead, then I'd like to know that they have the OLD Ace spin rocker that I'm used to, not the new.

[Bill_S]

I thought (and I could be wrong) that the next-step blade from MK Pro's was the Pattern 99 and similarly, CorAce leads to Gold Seal.  Interesting that people suggest the transition crosses the nominal brands.

The Eclipse Aurora is Riedell's clone for the JW Coronation Ace now, but the Eclipse Mist was their original model.  It's been discontinued, but several places have it on clearance.  (Kinzie's Closet, for example.)

I checked Kinzie's for the Mist (and they have a VERY attractive close-out price), but not in my size. 

I could check other places.

I had even considered the Aurora because tstop4me stated that it had a flatter spin rocker than an Ace. I seem to work better with flatter rockers. The MK Pro blades I had used in the other thread (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8417.25) had a spin rocker in the 20-inch range. Here are rocker measurements at various places along the blade. The main rocker numbers show a lot of scatter because of the small three-point window for most of them (with the exception of the one measured from 5" to 8" along the blade), but the spin rocker numbers can be more accurate because the curve changes faster between the measurement points.



The red dot on the spin rocker will be very close to the where I'd be for a scratch spin, with the drag pick just touching if I were spinning there. Any closer to the toe pick would result in a lot of scratching.

[Query]

Do I remember correctly that Riedell Eclipse blades aren't factory sharpened, and don't even have an established hollow?

If so, then it is expected that the skate tech will sharpen them, and perhaps that in the process they will clean up those rapidly varying rocker radii.

Or am I thinking of another brand?

[tstop4me]

Do I remember correctly that Riedell Eclipse blades aren't factory sharpened, and don't even have an established hollow?

If so, then it is expected that the skate tech will sharpen them, and perhaps that in the process they will clean up those rapidly varying rocker radii.

Or am I thinking of another brand?

You are correct.  Eclipse blades do not come sharpened from the factory.  They have a recommended ROH, but their PR guys spin the unsharpened blades as accommodating a "custom hollow".  Makes sense:  Not every skater wants the factory default ROH, and they would need to be sharpened again anyway.

[Query]

Interesting. Certainly explains why they don't bother cleaning up the rocker radii - but that might make things harder for inexperienced or poorly trained sharpeners, and very expensive on Sparx sharpening machines, at first.

Whereas it seems that MK and Wilson have cleaned up their radii. MK, as mentioned in another thread, says that they now use laser cutting - and since one source says they are now produced on the same assembly line, Wilson probably does too. I wonder if MK and Wilson are now doing a good job on sharpening too.

Oddly enough, a lot of skate techs still think that MK and Wilson don't cut or sharpen reliably, and routinely re-profile and re-sharpen their blades.

Bill - I see you are selling off many of your newly bought blades. Oh, well.

[Bill_S]

I can only skate on one or two at a time, so those that I don't need are being sold off to someone who could use them.

I might try testing a couple more blades in a few weeks. However, I mounted my 12-year old Aces last night and skated this morning. It was like being with an old friend. There's something in me saying "If it isn't broken..."