Impressions - Changing from a 3/8" to 1/2" ROH

[Bill_S]

I decided to change the ROH of my skates from 3/8" to 1/2". I have been skating in 3/8" for years now, and was interested to feel the difference.

Summarizing...

1) They are decidedly faster. That immediately manifests itself as the skates feeling very "slippery" on the ice. When skating, speed is easy to achieve and to maintain in a glide. Because I was used to the higher friction of a 3/8" ROH, I felt a bit unsettled at first. It will take a few more hours of skating before they become the "new normal".

2) They require deeper knee bend. I felt a little skidding when doing sloppy edging when my knee was straighter. I sank a little more into my knees, and any trace of slipping went away. These can really grip, but require a technique appropriate for them.

3) I felt very little difference doing three-turns or a series of turning-threes.

[Query]

I love the idea of dropping my 3/8" to go for something faster. But before wasting all the metal and time, I'd like more impressions, including other people, of the all the effects...

How does it affect spinning and/or twizzles?

I don't jump much, but how would sharpness and hollow affect that?

I'm guessing you let a pro shop do it, rather than spend hours wearing out your Pro-Filer, unless you bought the coarser grit Berghman skate sharpener (which would still have taken a while). Right?

I'm trying to figure out how sharp you made it. I'm not talking about the edge angle created by the ROH - I'm talking about how ragged and rounded off the final edge is, which is at least as important to effective sharpness. So:

If the final edge was done on a pro-shop's machine, was a fine grain wheel used? Do you happen to know the grit size (e.g., 60? 120?).
 
Did you use the diamond dust Pro-Filer stone to create the final edge?

Do you do anything to blunt your edges - e.g., deburring, or do you merely straighten and polish the sharpening burr, to create an ultrasharp foil edge?

Did you use a steel - and what was your technique/goal with it? E.g., were you merely straightening, or trying to create an extra-sharp smoothed side micro-bevel?

You didn't happen to make a micrograph that lets us see a picture of the edge, did you? (Yeah, I know that is hard core.)

[Bill_S]

I didn't do enough spins to get a really good feel for any changes. The edges gripped well on the entrance, but I still had issues with traveling. I don't blame the blade though. I did try some technique experiments (hold the outstretched position longer before pulling in, etc.) and they helped considerably. But I'm sure they would help with any edge.

My turning-threes are done pretty quickly. I can manage about one complete revolution each second with legs tucked. There was little difference in feel between the two hollows when doing turning threes, either direction.

I forgot to try my "snap revolutions" where I am moving forward, then tuck both arms and legs for one quick rev done in a half second, open up to stop rotation and go forward again, then repeat once or twice more. I'll report back after some more skating.

I had an unused 1/2" Pro Filer that I used to change the ROH. It didn't take long because all that's necessary is to take down the outside edges until the stone kisses the hollow. Going back to 3/8" will take much longer because you have to remove the center of the hollow. I didn't steel or side-grind the edges so I did still had a small burr all along the edge. A fingernail sliding up toward the edge could feel it, but it was a small one.

I didn't do any jumps, so no comment nor any speculations will be offered in the near future. My right knee is having issues, so I didn't jump.

[AgnesNitt]

3/8" is 12/32.
1/2 is 16/32
I skate at 15/32.
Yes I can feel the difference. It's just slippery enough, and grippy enough at the same time. Breaks in inside 30 minutes, lasts just as long as any other sharpening.
Takes one helluva technician though. I wouldn't trust just anyone...especially since I'm willing to tell them what ROH is on there.

[Query]

I skate at 15/32... (snip)
Takes one (bad word)uva technician though.

On the pro shop machine I looked at in detail, an old low end Blademaster, it would not be at all hard to dress a wheel to 15/32", because ROH is an analog setting. But you might be the only customer a given skate tech has who asks for 15/32". So some techs would look at 15/32" as a waste of time and money. Also, I haven't look at all the machines - maybe some have discrete settings that don't include 15/32".

[tstop4me]

On the pro shop machine I looked at in detail, an old low end Blademaster, it would not be at all hard to dress a wheel to 15/32", because ROH is an analog setting. But you might be the only customer a given skate tech has who asks for 15/32". So some techs would look at 15/32" as a waste of time and money. Also, I haven't look at all the machines - maybe some have discrete settings that don't include 15/32".

<<Emphasis added>>  As long as the ROH can be set to 15/32", why would it take more time or cost more $ to dress the wheel to 15/32" than to some more common setting such as 3/8", 7/16", or 1/2"?  Granted, the tech wouldn't have a batch of skates requested for 15/32".  But not all techs operate in batch mode (some operate in a first-come-first-serve mode); and they may have to redress the wheel from skate to skate, depending on the ROH requested by sequential customers.

The real issue is what is the accuracy and reproducibility of the dresser:  just because you set the dial to 15/32" doesn't necessarily mean that's what you'll get.

[Query]

Sometimes consecutive customers come in with the same ROH request. On top of that, many busy shops have multi-station equipment that lets them handle the most common ROH's without frequent redressing. In either case, even with for first-come-first-served service, you have to redress the wheel (or mount a different wheel) more often on average if you let people specify unusual ROH's.

Batch mode (in which you group similar ROH, similar blade thickness, and similar skate types together, which can use the same blade holding jig, and where used, the same rocker bar), is more efficient from the shop's point of view, and reduces wear and tear on the equipment. It also lets skate techs specialize - e.g., maybe only one is trained to sharpen figure skates - his or her time may get used more efficiently. Also, skate techs may not need to be there all the time.

So many shops use batch mode. Unless of course you pay extra to get rapid service. Some also charge extra for an unusual ROH.

But this is a bit off topic. The original poster wasn't concerned with 15/32".

[AgnesNitt]

<<Emphasis added>>  As long as the ROH can be set to 15/32", why would it take more time or cost more $ to dress the wheel to 15/32" than to some more common setting such as 3/8", 7/16", or 1/2"?  Granted, the tech wouldn't have a batch of skates requested for 15/32".  But not all techs operate in batch mode (some operate in a first-come-first-serve mode); and they may have to redress the wheel from skate to skate, depending on the ROH requested by sequential customers.

The real issue is what is the accuracy and reproducibility of the dresser:  just because you set the dial to 15/32" doesn't necessarily mean that's what you'll get.

I have a helluva technician who is a Silver ice dancer and pairs skater.  He has some weird ROH too (which I've forgotten).  If I ever go to another tech i guess I'll tell him my ROH then offer to pay to redress the wheel and I can watch.

[tstop4me]

I have a helluva technician who is a Silver ice dancer and pairs skater.  He has some weird ROH too (which I've forgotten).  If I ever go to another tech i guess I'll tell him my ROH then offer to pay to redress the wheel and I can watch.

You really shouldn't have to pay extra.  In my experience:  (a) Most shops already charge a premium for figure skates, relative to hockey skates and recreational skates; (b) I've watched several sharpeners dress a wheel.  It takes less than a minute (on the order of 10's of seconds), so it doesn't take up that much time; (c) Unless you're constantly flip-flopping between extreme values of ROH (say from 3/8" to 1" and back), you don't shorten the service life of the wheel that much ... redressing the wheel from a common 7/16" or 1/2" to 15/32" and back doesn't take off much.

As I wrote above, an oddball ROH is inconvenient only for techs that operate in batch mode.  In order for a tech to operate in batch mode, customers need to drop off their skates and then come back (allowing the tech to group batches of skates according to type of skate and ROH).  If the tech operates either by appointment or on a first-come-first-serve basis, it makes no difference.  I have come across shops with different stations for hockey and figure skates.  I don't know how common it is to have different stations dedicated for different ROH's [assuming wheels that can vary the ROH via dressing, rather than wheels with fixed ROH].

[masterblaster]

Just sticking my head in to say, I tried 15/32" last time I got a sharpening (on new skates), probably because I saw AgnesNitt mention it here. I do find a fresh 7/16" very, very grippy and difficult to stop on, and a 1/2" far too glidey, and the in between really did make all the difference. I could stop without trouble right from the start, and they still bit into the ice well enough for reasonably tight turns. I am a fan of the 15/32" ROH.

[AgnesNitt]

Just sticking my head in to say, I tried 15/32" last time I got a sharpening (on new skates), probably because I saw AgnesNitt mention it here. I do find a fresh 7/16" very, very grippy and difficult to stop on, and a 1/2" far too glidey, and the in between really did make all the difference. I could stop without trouble right from the start, and they still bit into the ice well enough for reasonably tight turns. I am a fan of the 15/32" ROH.

Thank you masterblaster

[AgnesNitt]

That was a fun read! 
For consistency, I dress my wheel before each pair of skates, even if they’re the same ROH.
I keep two wheels in circulation, one for 1/2” and greater and one for under 1/2”

He charges $10, includes a mini-bar of chocolate, and picks up and delivers boots to the rink...and I pay him by putting my $10 in an envelope under the insole.

[tstop4me]

He charges $10, includes a mini-bar of chocolate, and picks up and delivers boots to the rink...and I pay him by putting my $10 in an envelope under the insole.

Your tech is an outlier:  he does it as a side gig, rather than as a significant portion of his income stream; he's places #1 priority on doing it right, rather than maximizing throughput, minimizing expenses, or maximizing profit.  Consider yourself lucky:  sharpeners in my area (even the mediocre ones) typically charge $25 - $30, without any frills.

[AgnesNitt]

Your tech is an outlier:  he does it as a side gig, rather than as a significant portion of his income stream; he's places #1 priority on doing it right, rather than maximizing throughput, minimizing expenses, or maximizing profit.  Consider yourself lucky:  sharpeners in my area (even the mediocre ones) typically charge $25 - $30, without any frills.

I know I'm blessed. I'm enjoying it until I retire and take it up myself.

[masterblaster]

Wow, the fancy figure skating pro shop up here (which does sharpenings individually, first come, first served) only charges $10. It's three bucks more than a regular sports store or a hockey rink pro shop, but they do good work as far as i can tell. I'm new to skating, but I had no idea what a deal that is.

[Bill_S]

More impressions:

While I love, absolutely love, the glide with these, I'm becoming a bit disenchanted with some other aspects. I can do a really mean hockey turn, but this ROH is giving me some blade chatter and less control over what I had in 3/8". I use hockey turns a LOT while skating to avoid other skaters, and just to have fun. They require more concentration now to track. You have to work a bit harder when before, it was effortless.

My forward inside edge pattern also requires a bit more finesse to keep the edges from complaining. I feel a tiny bit less in control when doing deep, growly forward inside edges.

I'll keep experimenting. After all, it's just day three of this exercise.

[AgnesNitt]

I had someone do my skates--highly reccommended--but he gave me blade chatter. When my regular tech showed up he looked at the blades and said the edges were uneven. One was higher than then other. They sounded like a machine gun.

[Bill_S]

I checked the edges this morning and they look good. I even used the winding-stick method using two rulers to see if the blades were level along their length. They checked out OK.

I think that the chatter, where the blade grips, then tears out a chunk of ice, then grips again is caused by some other dynamic. I might be lightly "booting out". I see some wear on the outside edges of the soles.



But if that's the case, I'm not sure why the 3/8" hollow would behave differently.

[Query]

I had an unused 1/2" Pro Filer that I used to change the ROH.

A diamond-dust coarse grain Pro-Filer tool, or the fine tool?

The diamond-dust tool doesn't produce much of a burr, so it may not need to be removed.

It's great that you love what you've done!

[Bill_S]

I used both parts of the Pro Filer kit - coarse diamond first, then fine stone. The burr remaining was small and even along the length. That's a test I always do to ensure that I sharpened evenly.

[alejeather]

I had someone do my skates--highly reccommended--but he gave me blade chatter. When my regular tech showed up he looked at the blades and said the edges were uneven. One was higher than then other. They sounded like a machine gun.

I had this happen to me, but by my regular and trusted skate tech. I came back after an injury and when I finally got my skates sharpened, TERRIBLE chattering. I went back to him three times to get it right. The problem? Someone else had been using his gear and he kept discovering more things which weren't set the way he expected. If you have an unusual ROH, perhaps similarly something was not configured correctly to sharpen evenly.

[AgnesNitt]

I had this happen to me, but by my regular and trusted skate tech. I came back after an injury and when I finally got my skates sharpened, TERRIBLE chattering. I went back to him three times to get it right. The problem? Someone else had been using his gear and he kept discovering more things which weren't set the way he expected. If you have an unusual ROH, perhaps similarly something was not configured correctly to sharpen evenly.

That's a *Very* interesting story. My ROH at the time was 1/2,so perfectly ordinary, but I could see how since it was in a hockey rink with multiple sharpeners that could happen.

[Leif]

A competent sharpener should dress the wheel before sharpening each pair of skates, but many don’t bother if it’s the same hollow. The grind stone can and does change shape during the cut.

I started out on 5/8”, easy to hockey stop. As my edge control improved I went down to 1/2” then 7/16”. I feel I get better edge control and less unwanted sideways sliding. I feel I can get more push hence speed on crossovers etc. However, this has not been measured, just an impression. Initially hockey stops and backwards one foot stops were harder on the deeper hollow, the blade would chatter, but I learnt to adjust the angle. I think Bill is experiencing this, he is used to one angle, but needs to adjust it. The chatter is I think when the blade digs in too much, grips the ice, then jumps as it breaks free. The angle of the blade to the vertical is critical. When I was a beginner, a deep hollow had too much grip, and was too unforgiving.

Generally the lighter you are, the deeper the hollow, plus personal preference. But I know a very slight skater who skates brilliantly, played hockey for the GB under 18 team, but has 5/8”. I suspect he gets away with it due to superb  edge control.

I now sharpen before each session, as I like fresh edges.

[Casey]

I skate on 5/16" ROH.  I like being able to really lean and turn hard without any fear of slipping.  I started with a 1/2" ROH recommended for beginners, then tried 7/16" and loved it, then went to 5/16" after that which I've stuck with since, but all within the first few months of skating.  I considered trying 1/4" but never did.  I'm 5'11" and ~145lbs.  My blades do make a lot of noise, especially after I changed to the more rigid Paramount blades.  The blades being stainless also hold their edge a lot longer and still feel "too sharp" years after skating; I can still do one-foot stops on an inside edge without too much difficulty, but tango stops are challenging and unsure.  I don't think I can do any 2-foot stops as there's too much edge.  I suppose I should try going shallower, at least with these particular blades...I've felt frustrated with them and this may assist.  I am curious if my perspective would be different now that I know how to skate better than when I opted to go as deep as I did.

[Bill_S]

FWIW, I resharpened back to 3/8" in a marathon ProFiler hand-sharpening session. Changing ROH with hand-sharpeners is no fun, and I might not be done. One edge toward the spin rocker still doesn't have a burr yet. I discovered this after I thought that I was finished.

I LOVED the glide and speed I was able to get with the 1/2" hollow. Two-foot hockey stops were easy. All three-turns and brackets felt almost the same as before. However I was skidding a bit more in corners when keeping up with the hockey boys unless I made a conscious effort to bend my knees more deeply. That took a lot of concentration and leg-muscle work.

I have pretty good knee-bend, but not quite enough to corner fast and carefree in 1/2" blades. I got tired of skating with the knees of world-class ice dancers or speed skaters, so I changed back. I haven't skated in the restored 3/8" yet, but I should be able to in the next couple of days. That will tell me if the decision to return to 3/8" was a smart one or not.

I know that 3/8" feels grabby to most people, but it's what I've used for many years. I'll update this thread once I've skate on 3/8" again.