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Author Topic: Are the blades set correctly?  (Read 594 times)

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Offline ocug

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Are the blades set correctly?
« on: November 09, 2017, 01:51:29 PM »
I just got new boots for my daughter and this is how they set the blades.. her coach said the right one is incorrect as she doesnt have any issues with feet or legs.. can anyone please help me if they know about this? i did ask the guy who put the blades why it was at the edge of the heel and he said blades dont go in the middle. I trusted his opinion as i dont know a lot about blades but was a bit hesitant because none of her other skates had been set this way... any help will be much appreciated... so frustrated also because he charged me 60 dollars to set them on the new boots :(
thanks

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2017, 01:54:14 PM »
Did the skate tech check the alignment while she was wearing the skates? 
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Offline ocug

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2017, 02:06:33 PM »
He did and he said they were alright. Her coach said she can’t hold an outside edge now though because the blades are so inside... ?

Offline AgnesNitt

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2017, 03:01:09 PM »
Yeah the heel placement looks unequal. However, my blades are set slightly inside of the middle based on something Gustave Lussi wrote, so it’s not ‘wrong’.

I’ve never paid $60 to set blades.
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Offline ocug

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2017, 03:10:00 PM »
thanks for your input! just looks odd that the left one is centered and the right one at the edge of the heel.
didnt know i was supposed to pay for the mounting of blades.. thought the fitting cost-35 had the mounting included and seal.. guess all was separate :(

Offline icedancer

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2017, 03:37:26 PM »
Can she skate in a straight line on one foot?

Was she able to hold an outside edge in her old blades?

What level skater are we talking about?

There are lots of details that go into the correct placement of the blade!

Offline ocug

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2017, 03:57:23 PM »
She can skate in a straight line.
She was able to hold her outside edge in her old skates.
She’s 7 and working on her juvenile moves in the field, preliminary freeskate.
Thanks for your help!!! :)

Offline Bill_S

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2017, 04:05:25 PM »
The right blade does looks oddly mounted.

Did the tech work with the skater's feedback for best placement? Usually they mount the blades with screws in just the slotted adjustment holes until the skater finds the best position, then a few permanent screws are inserted into the other holes to make sure the blade doesn't move.

From first appearances, I'd agree with the coach. It looks wrong, at least in the photo.
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Offline tstop4me

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2017, 04:07:17 PM »
Did you buy the boot and blade from the tech, or did you buy online?  Typically, if you buy from the tech, the mounting and a first sharpening is included.  If you bought elsewhere, typically there is a charge ($60 for the mounting is about the going rate in my area).

Offline ocug

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2017, 04:09:54 PM »
He did but my daughter’s feedback is not great... she was just excited to get new boots... today in her private lesson is where she started having problems. Coach said she could get used to skate with the blade like that but when she switches to a normal blade set she will have trouble :(
I will take it to another specialist tomorrow and see what they say... every specialist is almost 2 hours away from where we live... thank you for your help

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2017, 04:17:00 PM »
Could you reshoot the photo with the camera lens viewing head-on the blades (the blades are a bit tilted in the current photo) so I can see the alignment better?  There are peculiarities with both skates, but I'm not sure it's an artifact of the photo.

Offline ocug

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2017, 04:19:01 PM »
Will take more pictures as soon as I get home ;) really appreciate it :)

Offline ocug

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2017, 05:28:17 PM »
i hope this pictures give a better view ;)

Offline Query

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2017, 07:43:44 PM »
In case anyone gets confused - let me remind everyone that putting the skates upside down means that in the first image, the boot on the left is the right boot, and the boot on the right is the left boot. :blush:

AFAICT, the toe left-right placement is about right, but the heel placement is wrong, unless she needed that correction.

But none of us have seen your daughter skate, on centered blades or otherwise. We don't know what the fitter saw that made him do what he did.

One result of the shown blade placement is that she would also need to change the direction in which she orients her right foot. If she doesn't need that particular correction, that is a lot to ask of the young lady. In particular, to skate symmetrically, she will need to rotate her right foot clockwise (so the toe moves outwards, and the heel inwards), to go in the same direction as before. Unless she has an asymmetric anatomy, in which the foot orientation and knee/hip orientation do not match (which she might - one of the reasons to talk to the fitter), that may look slightly strange. Figure skating is an appearance sport, and for the most part, I don't think you want a pathological look if you can avoid it. So if her body lines up without a twist in her right leg, I don't think this is the right thing to do.

There is some disagreement about what part of the blade people should skate on. I was taught, by a particular Russian ice dancer, and by his students, to lean my body and boots forwards when skating forwards, and back when skating back. I think that produces a very nice looking posture, in which the lean, blade position, etc., all line up and look similar to what many people use in international style ballroom dance, if I understand correctly (I'm not expert). (Ice dance style seems to me to be a lot more about getting a certain look than about practical ergonomic concerns.) But it is far more common, especially among freestyle skaters, to do the reverse - to lean forwards when skating back, and back when skating forwards, and there are some ways in which that is more practical mechanically. If she has been taught the more common lean pattern, the inside right blade mount will only affect her right forward outside edge, and will not affect the right back outside edge much. It should not affect her left edges at all, though she might be a little awkward switching from foot to foot until she gets used to the aforementioned clockwise rotation she will need in the right foot.

Assuming the common lean patter, with the blade to the inside, it should be easier to reach the FORWARD RIGHT outside edge, but also easier to fall over that edge, so she may be hesitant to use her forward right outside edge, especially at first. If the goal was to force her to use her right BACK outside edge more, mounting the blades to the inside only on the right heel doesn't make much sense to me. However, maybe the fitter judged that she was avoiding her right forward outside edge, and he wanted her to correct that.

I don't suppose the coach could talk to the fitter, and determine if he had a reason for doing what he did?

If it was me, unless there was a good reason to do otherwise, I would switch to a more normally centered blade placement. I used to mount both of my blades offset far to the left (though I did it both in the heel and toe), because that helped me balance, probably the result of tilted foot bottoms, which were in turn probably the result of somewhat unequal leg length - at least so I think. But that offset made it harder to spin centered, which I have trouble with in any event. So I moved the blades to the centers, and altered the shape of the insoles instead, to better support the left side of my feet. I still have trouble spinning, but centering the blade placement helped a little.

But everyone is different.

PS. I know my explanations tend to be a bit long-winded and hard to follow. That's because I feel such issues to be fairly complicated and unique to the individual. Making a simple explanation doesn't recognize that everybody's body is different. Maybe there is a good reason for what the fitter did.


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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2017, 09:08:07 PM »
i hope this pictures give a better view ;)
How about similar shots of the the other (left) boot?

Offline ocug

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2017, 09:21:31 PM »


AFAICT, the toe left-right placement is about right, but the heel placement is wrong, unless she needed that correction.

i really dont think she needs any corrections ;) Her coach doesnt think so, and the expert didnt tell me he put it on the edge to make any corrections either ... :(

But none of us have seen your daughter skate, on centered blades or otherwise. We don't know what the fitter saw that made him do what he did.

i dont think he saw her skate on her last skates ever before either.. if you do want to watch her skates she has a fb page with her name jessi jurka... i really cant tell the difference :(

One result of the shown blade placement is that she would also need to change the direction in which she orients her right foot. If she doesn't need that particular correction, that is a lot to ask of the young lady. In particular, to skate symmetrically, she will need to rotate her right foot clockwise (so the toe moves outwards, and the heel inwards), to go in the same direction as before. Unless she has an asymmetric anatomy, in which the foot orientation and knee/hip orientation do not match (which she might - one of the reasons to talk to the fitter), that may look slightly strange. Figure skating is an appearance sport, and for the most part, I don't think you want a pathological look if you can avoid it. So if her body lines up without a twist in her right leg, I don't think this is the right thing to do.

maybe thats why she got her first blister on her right foot?? she said she felt a lot of pressure and it hurt a lot while she was skating.. I thought it was maybe just the new boots? her left foot is fine though ;)

There is some disagreement about what part of the blade people should skate on. I was taught, by a particular Russian ice dancer, and by his students, to lean my body and boots forwards when skating forwards, and back when skating back. I think that produces a very nice looking posture, in which the lean, blade position, etc., all line up and look similar to what many people use in international style ballroom dance, if I understand correctly (I'm not expert). (Ice dance style seems to me to be a lot more about getting a certain look than about practical ergonomic concerns.) But it is far more common, especially among freestyle skaters, to do the reverse - to lean forwards when skating back, and back when skating forwards, and there are some ways in which that is more practical mechanically. If she has been taught the more common lean pattern, the inside right blade mount will only affect her right forward outside edge, and will not affect the right back outside edge much. It should not affect her left edges at all, though she might be a little awkward switching from foot to foot until she gets used to the aforementioned clockwise rotation she will need in the right foot.

Assuming the common lean patter, with the blade to the inside, it should be easier to reach the FORWARD RIGHT outside edge, but also easier to fall over that edge, so she may be hesitant to use her forward right outside edge, especially at first. If the goal was to force her to use her right BACK outside edge more, mounting the blades to the inside only on the right heel doesn't make much sense to me. However, maybe the fitter judged that she was avoiding her right forward outside edge, and he wanted her to correct that.

I don't suppose the coach could talk to the fitter, and determine if he had a reason for doing what he did?

i wish he would.. hes russian and doesnt speak lots of english and avoids talking on the phone with anyone :( the specialist is more than an hour away from where we live so not  a chance of having them meet either :(



If it was me, unless there was a good reason to do otherwise, I would switch to a more normally centered blade placement. I used to mount both of my blades offset far to the left (though I did it both in the heel and toe), because that helped me balance, probably the result of tilted foot bottoms, which were in turn probably the result of somewhat unequal leg length - at least so I think. But that offset made it harder to spin centered, which I have trouble with in any event. So I moved the blades to the centers, and altered the shape of the insoles instead, to better support the left side of my feet. I still have trouble spinning, but centering the blade placement helped a little.

But everyone is different.

PS. I know my explanations tend to be a bit long-winded and hard to follow. That's because I feel such issues to be fairly complicated and unique to the individual. Making a simple explanation doesn't recognize that everybody's body is different. Maybe there is a good reason for what the fitter did.
[/quote]


thank you for all your information.. :)

Offline ocug

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2017, 09:24:20 PM »
left boot


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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2017, 09:27:03 PM »
i hope this pictures give a better view ;)
Re:  right boot.  Typically, as an initial trial mount, you mark the center of the toe and the center of the heel.  Imagine a first line drawn between those two points.  Then imagine a second line parallel to the first line, but ~1/8" shifted towards the inside (medial side) of the boot. Line up the longitudinal axis of the blade along the second line.  So, as mounted, the toe of the blade is reasonably positioned, but the heel of the blade is too far to the inside.  Any adjustments from the initial trial mount would then be done after a test period on the ice [unless the tech knew in advance that your daughter had a foot condition that required a special mount, but that does not appear to be the case from your post].

Offline ocug

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2017, 09:31:02 PM »
Hopefully that can be fixed then... thank you all for the help... I understand the heel should be positioned more in the center ;)

Offline tstop4me

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2017, 09:35:26 PM »
left boot
Re:  left boot.  Mount is at least reasonable for an initial trial mount.

Offline ocug

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2017, 09:38:22 PM »
Can the right one still be fixed? I’m surprised with this as this specialist is known to be one of the best ones around... maybe he was just too busy and did a quick not so good job with my daughter’s skates as she’s not a high level skater?

Offline tstop4me

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2017, 09:52:14 PM »
Can the right one still be fixed? I’m surprised with this as this specialist is known to be one of the best ones around... maybe he was just too busy and did a quick not so good job with my daughter’s skates as she’s not a high level skater?
Oh, definitely.  Blade can be demounted.  Old holes can be permanently plugged if needed.  New holes drilled if needed.  I mount my own blades.  I have problem feet.  I've changed the mount about 6 times.

Offline ocug

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2017, 09:54:32 PM »
Thank you for giving me peace.. for a moment I thought her boots were ruined

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2017, 09:55:10 PM »
By the way, what blades are those?  From the photos, it seems there are only permanent mount holes (no temporary mount slots) in the heel plates [unless the hole pattern for the left and right blades are different?]; not sure about the sole plates from the photos.  Never seen blades like that before.

Offline ocug

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Re: Are the blades set correctly?
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2017, 10:28:42 PM »
Pattern 99... same blades she was using with her old risports boots... same specialist said she needed to change to Jacksons as her toe box is wide