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Author Topic: Actual weight of Edea vs Jackson! My new skates vs my old skates!  (Read 472 times)

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Offline Arwen17

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ok, so I skated 12 years ago when I was 14 years old and I wore Jackson Freestyle (womens size 9B) with the Mark IV (10 1/3) blade pre-attached. I only skated for a year, got up to loop jump, then quit.
I started skating again in January 2017 at 26 years old and I still had my Jackson Freestyle skates, so I've been skating on them almost every day since January. I've worked my way up and got all of my singles, except axel, still working on underrotated axel. I really wore out the boots skating every day so decided to do a massive upgrade by purchasing the Edea Ice Fly (270) + Matrix Legacy blades (10" lilac).

Here's the following weight comparison: (using a cheap kitchen scale)

Edea boots without blades attached:
1lb 9.7oz right boot
1lb 9.9oz left boot


8.3oz right matrix legacy blade
8.2oz left blade

blades have now been mounted to the edea boot:
2lb 2.3oz right boot (edea+blade)
2lb 2.5oz left boot (edea+blade)


2lb 11.3oz for right boot (jackson freestyle + MarkIV blade) (remember this is a boot from 12 years ago, so jackson may have changed their design by now)
2lb 11.1oz for left boot


43.3oz (freestyle one boot+blade)
34.5oz (edea one boot+blade)
so 20% lighter?

Personally, when I hold them in my hands, the Edea boot+blade feels like 50% lighter, but according to my cheap kitchen scale, it's only 20% lighter.
There's also the fact that I'm comparing a high-level Edea boot and blade to a lower level freestyle skate and blade. Perhaps an equivalent level boot and blade would see a greater difference in weight.

They were just freshly mounted tonight. I will write a full review after I've gotten used to Edea. I know Edea seems to get "OMG I LOVE THEM!" vs "OMG THESE SUC!" reviews.
I can already say they feel comfortable because they were heat-molded to my feet, except I have high-ish arches. So if I don't adjust, I may need to get some arch support that I didn't need in Jackson. I also have to wear super-thin socks with Edea while I wore ordinary socks with Jackson. And the jackson boots are slightly taller (aka higher on my ankle) than the Edea, so its a little disconcerting, but I think I'll adjust to it quickly.

After being with itty bitty toe picks for so long, the monster toe picks on the Legacy will be interesting.8)

Offline Query

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Re: Actual weight of Edea vs Jackson! My new skates vs my old skates!
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2017, 04:55:45 PM »
I think you have made very rapid progress, both at 14, and now. Congratulations! And I love your hair.

I can't tell you why your scale and your hands don't agree on the weight ratio, but, on your feet, boots and blades might have a bigger difference in "Throw weight" (physically related to "moment of inertia") - i.e., swinging inertia, then in "static weight", because the strongest and therefore maybe heaviest part of the boots are at the bottom, which has a bigger lever arm when you swing your legs, or spin (including rotational jumps). The relatively light Matrix blades may help with throw weight too.

Anyway, most high level figure skating boots are heavier than most low level figure skating boots. By going with the Ice Flys, you made a different choice. Perhaps you sacrificed durability, but you got feather weight. Fly high!

Do the ice Flys fit you as well as the Jackson Freestyles? It at least used to be true that Jacksons were great for wide-toed feet, whereas Edeas were best for thin-toed feet.

Anyway, I hope your new boots and blades please you well, and that your skating keeps getting better.

:stars:

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Re: Actual weight of Edea vs Jackson! My new skates vs my old skates!
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2017, 05:32:39 PM »
Good objective data, and so much better than just guesses.

I'm glad you took the time to do this.

+GOE coming your way
Bill Schneider

Offline tstop4me

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Re: Actual weight of Edea vs Jackson! My new skates vs my old skates!
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2017, 07:07:06 AM »
Personally, when I hold them in my hands, the Edea boot+blade feels like 50% lighter, but according to my cheap kitchen scale, it's only 20% lighter.

I can't tell you why your scale and your hands don't agree on the weight ratio,

Basically your hands are not calibrated.  By lifting two items (A and B) individually, you can get a rough subjective comparison of their weights:  A is about the same weight as B, A is a little lighter than B, A is a lot lighter than B ... [this will also depend on the actual magnitudes of the weights].  But to conclude quantitatively that A is 50% lighter than B in distinction to A is 20% lighter than B, no.

Offline Arwen17

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Re: Actual weight of Edea vs Jackson! My new skates vs my old skates!
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2017, 10:02:48 AM »

Good objective data, and so much better than just guesses.

I'm glad you took the time to do this.

+GOE coming your way

awww! thank you!!
yeah I was sick of the guessing that I always saw in other threads when I was trying to decide if I wanted to switch to Edea. So I'm providing my own details that will hopefully help other people decide what they want to do.


Do the ice Flys fit you as well as the Jackson Freestyles? It at least used to be true that Jacksons were great for wide-toed feet, whereas Edeas were best for thin-toed feet.

I definitely think Jackson is great for wide-toed feet, but I actually did have a tiny, tiny bit of rubbing on my pinkie toes in my Jackson, so I always wore thicker socks and just let my pinkie toes build up some callus to deal with that. I'm sure punching out that area just a tiny bit would have fixed it immediately.
Heat-molding by Edea specialists fixed all of my problems with Edea. They heat-molded them for me when I purchased the skates.
I think most people probably have to get Edea molded, especially in the ankle area. There's no room for bulging ankle bones until they heat mold it. They also had to make a bit of room for my navicular bone and my pinkie toes. And they had to widen the toe box on the left foot since I think my left foot is a couple millimeters bigger than the right foot. The internet tells me the left foot being slightly bigger than the right foot is common in 80% of people.
Anyone who fits in Edea without any kind of heat molding must have extremely narrow feet and narrow ankles with no bones. My feet are dead-average width with a B in Jackson styles and an A in most other styles. But I still needed those heatmold adjustments to Edea since its so narrow.


-----

Update#1:

took the new skates out for a spin for the first time today. I was able to get a really good sit spin going and definitely noticed the weight difference between my new vs old skates. still feels like 50% weight reduction, even tho the kitchen scale says its only 20% reduction. Still working on the sweet spot for the camel spin, couldn't get  more than a couple barely controlled revolutions out of it at the moment. The jumps were the worse. I was able to do really crappy, no-lift, loop and flip jumps, but I hope my ankle gets stronger or I figure out how to tie it better. I like the ultra-flexibility of the tongue on the landing, but it was making taking off for jumps with any kind of strength impossible. During jumps, I could feel what some people complain about: the ankle wobbling from side-to-side in the boot. I don't feel that during footwork nor spinning, just jumping so far. I have to really think "strong ankles! Hold your ankles!" on the jump landing since the boot isn't doing it for me.
I'll probably be back to normal in a week hopefully. The only pain I'm experiencing at the moment is arch pain, which a lot of Edea people seem to say is part of the break-in process. Your ankles get stronger because the boots are looser and your arches get stronger because Edea has such a flat foot bed compared to other brands of skates I guess. Really, really loving the way they look, the larger toe pick, and the lighter weight.

Update#2:
just found these at the local drugstore this morning: https://www.amazon.com/Dr-Scholls-Stylish-Hidden-Support/dp/B01M7VGJNY/  omg the difference is night and day! Edea really needs to work on making their footbed more comfortable. I never had to modify my old Jackson skates in any way. I don't understand how Edea has a flatter footbed when they have a higher heel either. I just know my arches feel fine in the old Jackson and always did. Whereas Edea only feels comfortable with the gel-arch-inserts. Now that my poor arches aren't exhausted from trying to hold themselves up without any support, Edea is perfectly comfortable.
I will say the arch pain, while deeply uncomfortable, did not last when resting. As soon as I sat down for 10-15min, my feet recovered even while wearing the Edea skates. It was just full body weight on my arches that would cause them to ache while skating. I am BMI 22.0 (150lbs at 5'9) so I'm not overweight, but my arches didn't like it.

Offline MagicSk8Ball

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Re: Actual weight of Edea vs Jackson! My new skates vs my old skates!
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2017, 12:31:27 PM »
I'm willing to contribute skate weights to your database, if you'd like.  With five skater owners in the family, I have a bunch of different boots, sizes, brands and models.

Offline AgnesNitt

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Re: Actual weight of Edea vs Jackson! My new skates vs my old skates!
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2017, 01:19:11 PM »
tstopme is correct. Human beings cannot compare (or remember) weights to a degree of accuracy.

Although humans can compare colors (in the same light and of the same material) they cannot remember colors to a significant degree of accuracy (for example turquoise vs teal)

Yes I'm in with the 90's. I have a skating blog. http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/

Offline nicklaszlo

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Re: Actual weight of Edea vs Jackson! My new skates vs my old skates!
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2017, 07:16:48 PM »
A skate tech told me that boots get heavier as you use them, owing to the residue left when sweat evaporates. 

I'm sure you really needed to know that.

Offline twokidsskatemom

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Re: Actual weight of Edea vs Jackson! My new skates vs my old skates!
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2017, 04:40:48 PM »
The higher level Jacksons 4200,5200 and 5500 are the same weight as Edeas.
Hope you like your skates!

Offline tstop4me

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Re: Actual weight of Edea vs Jackson! My new skates vs my old skates!
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2017, 07:48:53 PM »
The higher level Jacksons 4200,5200 and 5500 are the same weight as Edeas.
Hope you like your skates!
Wasn't the 4200 one of the previous generation traditional heavier leather models?

Offline Arwen17

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Re: Actual weight of Edea vs Jackson! My new skates vs my old skates!
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2017, 09:27:03 PM »
I'm willing to contribute skate weights to your database, if you'd like.  With five skater owners in the family, I have a bunch of different boots, sizes, brands and models.

Please post any information you have here! It's fun to compare skates!


-----

​Update#3:
Well I skated today with the gel arch inserts and they felt comfortable at first. But eventually they felt like rocks and hurt worse than not having them there. So I took them out. This time I laced the skate as loosely as possible to see if that would help my arches feel better without the arch support. This is totally counter-intuitive. I was already trying to keep the laces on the looser side, but this time I made them as loose as possible while still having some support left to keep the skates on my feet.
It does take longer now for arch pain to build up, but I still have to sit down periodically to let my arches recover.
Despite the footbed not being 100% comfortable, the camel spin and most things were a lot better today as I figured out all of the balance points on the new blades.
Only the jumps are still crap.
Even with the skates tied loose, when I do spins, the support feels great and flex of the tongue is great. No problems there.
But the jumps desperately need more support. I can literally feel the boot slide slightly on my heel when I try to take off for a jump because I’ve tied the skates so loosely. It doesn’t scare me, because the boot isn’t really going to fall off my foot, but it does mean my jump has zero height since the boot isn’t helping at all.
I’m hoping my arches will strengthen over time, which will allow me to tie the skate a bit tighter and hopefully finally allow me to get back to jumping normally.
In conclusion, if I can get my arches strong enough and my ankles stronger (or skates tighter without pain) for jump support, I think the looser ankles and flex in these skates is a great thing for stuff like pointing your toes and sit spins etc.


Update#4:
My coach suggested I try putting the gel inserts underneath the typical Edea foot insert.
I played around with positioning off-ice until I could not feel the inserts.
If you can feel the inserts, they might not be in the right place.
Then I tested that on-ice to see if it was any better:

Looks like the gel inserts are going to work out after all!! I can feel them but they’re not hurting me now that I've placed them underneath the Edea foot insert. yay!!!
Conclusion: if you’re having problems with Edea’s footbed because of arch pain, try some arch inserts underneath the Edea footpad. And move them around until you can't feel them or barely feel them so it doesn’t hurt after you’ve been skating for awhile.
Once you find the right spot for your feet, it’s like magic.
I probably have slightly pronated feet or Edea's heel is too high for my natural footbed or something. My old Jackson skates had a much lower heel or more room to pronate a bit inside the boot.
If you’re having trouble with the fit of Edea’s toe box or sides, then you have the wrong-size boot or you didn’t get it heatmolded in the correct spots.
I find when I can’t control my edges, I need to tie the boot a bit tighter. So you want to tie the boot as loosely as you can to avoid any arch or instep pain etc, but still tight enough to have enough support for your edge control.
Same with jumps. I had to really tighten up the boot from the bend point and higher to be able to do jumps.
So if you can’t do jumps with any height, tighten up the laces some more.
If it really starts to hurt somewhere, loosen that area a bit.
That’s how you find the sweet spot with these boots and their laces.
It only took me three ice sessions to fix my arch problems and get used to these skates. So that’s not bad at all. Now I only have occasional balance checks because of the larger toe pick.



I hope this post provides useful information for anyone else considering buying Edea skates or working thru their own Edea problems. I will update this post if anything else happens or changes in the future, but I am very happy with my skates now. I don't think they are "miracle" skates or anything (especially since it sounds like Jackson and others have updated their skate lines to more closely resemble Edea's features), but I do think the lightweight feature and the shorter boot height etc allow skaters to flex their ankle more for sit spins, jump landings, and point their toe a lot easier.

Offline sampaguita

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Re: Actual weight of Edea vs Jackson! My new skates vs my old skates!
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2017, 09:32:38 PM »
Thank you for this post!!! This is the first nonpartisan quantitative comparison of Edeas vs. Jacksons I've seen.

Offline Arwen17

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Re: Actual weight of Edea vs Jackson! My new skates vs my old skates!
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2017, 09:45:52 PM »
Thank you for this post!!! This is the first nonpartisan quantitative comparison of Edeas vs. Jacksons I've seen.

No problem! When I was trying to decide what to purchase, I just was kinda torn between the posts "gushing" about how Edea skates were God's new gift to man VS the people who said Edea was the worst thing they've ever worn lol. What's a shopping-person to think when the reviews are so polarized one direction or another?
Jackson might have fit my feet better, but since they've redesigned their new skates to be more like Edea, I may have had the same exact problems, who knows. Unfortunately, Jackson decided not to show up at the Eastern Great Lakes Regionals a week or so ago, so the only thing I could try on was Edea. Jackson, you missed an opportunity big-time by not showing up!  (Harlick was there too, but I was only interested in trying out Jackson and Edea. Riedell didn't show up either.)
Edea has a much better marketing strategy. They show up at events like these and therefore they succeed in selling skates.

Ultimately, if you can get Edea to work for your feet, I think they are some of the most beautiful skates to look at. They know how to make skates "pretty" :love:. I would have gone with Jackson skates if they felt more comfortable to me (if Jackson had bothered to show up), but they still wouldn't have been as "pretty" as Edea skates are lol.

Now that I'm in them and comfortable with them, I will probably stick with Edea boots and Jackson blades in any future upgrades.


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Re: Actual weight of Edea vs Jackson! My new skates vs my old skates!
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2017, 03:17:52 AM »
I think they are some of the most beautiful skates to look at. They know how to make skates "pretty" :love:.


Haha I feel this way about my Risport dance!  I love the loopdy-loops on the side.  FWIW, I did try on the Edea Flemenco when I was skate shopping 5 years ago.  I have paddle shaped feet, I think- C on the ball and AA on the heel (as sized into Jacksons, which I'll probably get when these die).  Those flamenco's were WAY too wide on the heel.  And given that there is no one around I would trust to mold Edeas (or punch out any skates, really), I personally will probably never go with them.  But your post is very interesting!  Thanks for taking the time do that.

Offline Jenna

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Actual weight of Edea vs Jackson! My new skates vs my old skates!
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2017, 09:59:56 AM »
The redesigned Jackson’s have a higher heel on them to mimic the Edeas.  I hated my Edeas and stopped wearing them when I realized that I would rather quit skating altogether than skate in those boots.  Unfortunately, I decided to try Jacksons instead of going with SP Teri (I used to skate in SP Teri before I got custom Klingbeils) not realizing that they made all those changes.  While the Jacksons are better, I need a more neutral pitch to the boot for my feet to feel comfortable and my skating is much better in the lower heel styles.  Live and learn.

It is pretty interesting how polarizing Edeas are.  It’s love or hate, I don’t hear any in between.

I do think the Ice Flys are very pretty, though.

Offline twokidsskatemom

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Re: Actual weight of Edea vs Jackson! My new skates vs my old skates!
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2017, 10:49:29 AM »
Wasn't the 4200 one of the previous generation traditional heavier leather models?

I am 99 percent sure they arent. My daughter went from flys to the 4200  three weeks before regionals just to get out of flys. It was only a temp thing, the dealer happened to have the 4200 leftover. This weekend she is going into the 5500. I will check and see if the weight just by hand is close to the same.

Offline Arwen17

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Re: Actual weight of Edea vs Jackson! My new skates vs my old skates!
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2017, 01:59:34 PM »
The redesigned Jackson’s have a higher heel on them to mimic the Edeas.  I hated my Edeas and stopped wearing them when I realized that I would rather quit skating altogether than skate in those boots.  Unfortunately, I decided to try Jacksons instead of going with SP Teri (I used to skate in SP Teri before I got custom Klingbeils) not realizing that they made all those changes.  While the Jacksons are better, I need a more neutral pitch to the boot for my feet to feel comfortable and my skating is much better in the lower heel styles.  Live and learn.

It is pretty interesting how polarizing Edeas are.  It’s love or hate, I don’t hear any in between.

I do think the Ice Flys are very pretty, though.

Were you having arch problems like me because of the higher heels? Or something else?

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Re: Actual weight of Edea vs Jackson! My new skates vs my old skates!
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2017, 02:16:05 PM »
Were you having arch problems like me because of the higher heels? Or something else?

I was having arch issues, which is something I have issues with in general.  I have plantar fasciitis chronically and flare ups are harder and harder to treat for me because of all the scar tissue I’ve developed.  I tried the small gel arch pads, super feet and even had my podiatrist make a pair of orthotics specifically for those boots.  I got to a point where it was better to get rid of the boots than spend the $$$ to fix the foot pain that didn’t go away after skating.

I also was having a lot of pain in the ball of my foot because I’m toe heavy as a skater anyway and putting my weight even further forward was wreaking havoc with my feet and my skating skills.

While I hate that I had to spend several hundred dollars on boots that I was in for less than 6 months (and even now, not being totally happy with my boots), I know what I need and want in a boot and can use that in the future.

Offline Arwen17

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Re: Actual weight of Edea vs Jackson! My new skates vs my old skates!
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2017, 10:05:33 AM »
Update#5:
Side note: I'm really loving how fast these synthetic-material boots dry out after hours of skating in them! They dry out in like 1-2 hours or less! My old leather boots were usually still slightly damp, even after 8 hours of drying out. It usually took over 12 hours for them to be completely dry. I used to point the leather boots at my house fan so they would dry out in just a couple hours because of the direct air movement. So nice not to have to keep the fan out all the time as a "boot dryer" anymore.

The 2nd week of skating in these new boots has been so much better than the first. They're really starting to break-in and form to my feet finally. I'm finally able to get the tongue part completely squashed against my ankle, which lets me get the laces tighter, which gives me the support I need to control my MIF edges and jumps. Overall, I can tie the entire skate tighter now since it's now forming to my foot, but getting that ankle area tighter is the most important for fine edge and jump control.
I'm also finally starting to enjoy the lightness of the boots and the larger toe pick of my new blade. Now that I've adjusted to it and it no longer feels so weird, I can finally feel how useful it is to have a larger toe pick to vault off of for my currently underrotated single axel jump. I just hated it the first week because I was like "This thing is too big! Give me back my tiny toe pick now!" But now it's feeling so much better and superior to what I had before for jumping. My camel spins are back to normal now that the lightness of the boot has become normal and I'm able to rotate about twice as much as I used to since it's not as heavy.
I will say the lightness of the boots hasn't made it any easier to get my leg stretched further out in front of me on the sit spin, but it does make it easier to hold the sit spin longer. So the solution to that is quite simply leg strength and do more off-ice squats.
I prefer making my standard sit spins not-quite thigh parallel because I can hold it longer and the free leg is really curved. If I make my sit spin thigh parallel and try to straighten the leg more, I can't hold it very long at all, even tho that's the correct position. My pancake spin is excellent since I don't have to hold my leg out in front of me for that. I can hold a pancake spin, thigh parallel, practically forever now with little effort because the boots are so supportive and light.

Offline Query

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Re: Actual weight of Edea vs Jackson! My new skates vs my old skates!
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2017, 01:31:52 AM »
I think it is great that you are happy with your new boots.

I guess the question of whether they are really the best possible boots for you is irrelevant. Sure, many of the major brands of skate boot include heavy models and lightweight models, and maybe nicklaszlo is right that water absorption mess up weights. But when all is said and done, most of us can't afford to buy all the models of all the brands. If you are happy with what you have got, that is all you need.

Of course not everyone can be made happy by any given brand and model of standardized insert inside the shoe, to make us comfortable, just as not everyone can be made happy by any given brand and model of standardized shoe or boot. We all need subtly different shapes of what touches and supports our feet. They only way to get it right is to make your own, or have ones custom made for you by an expert. If you make your own, you need to have an analytic mind. It isn't enough to know that it hurts. You need to figure out for yourself where it hurts - and whether it needs more or less support, or whether the pain comes from excess pressure, insufficient pressure (which causes slippage and blisters), excess muscle use (if you are changing the shape of your feet using muscles to match the boot, or to make up for a tendency to tilt your feet in the wrong way). You could also have a rough or pointy surface (e.g., a protruding nail) that your foot is resting on. Or maybe, your foot is being pressed into a shape that over-stretches a muscle or ligament. It is even possible to need different shapes of support structure as you add on more weight - if your foot changes shape in an asymmetric fashion as you add weight. That may require a custom mixture of foams to support different parts of your feet differently, with carefully chosen properties. Once you have figured out the problem - and you may need to experiment - you can reshape the insert - whether you made it or someone else made it - to match your feet and your boots.

And to make it worse, most insert and insole materials don't keep their shape forever - most gradually compress and change properties - often over a period of a few months. (E.g., really high end running shoes, with EVA soles that form to your feet, are supposed to work very well at first, but are only expected to last about 3 months. Most adult figure skaters who pay for their own boots would be very unhappy if their boots were that short lived!  But you may need to replace our inserts and/or insoles once in a while, to keep yourself happy and comfortable.

Some of the real medical experts sometimes use special socks with electronic pressure sensors built in all over the socks, that lets them see high and low pressure points, and how they change as you move and change the weight on different parts of your feet. Perhaps that helps, if you have trouble figuring out and explaining exactly what the problem is. Yet, even the medical experts (e.g., podiatrists, orthopedic surgeons, some sports PTs) sometimes get it wrong, and have to redo the fit.

As an example of the complexity of these problems, I've recently had a problem when wearing flat bed shoes (e.g., sandals). One or both feet sometimes get cramps around base of the toes. It doesn't feel like a differential pressure thing. I think it is possible my toes are used to being bent upwards by my skates, and something over-stretches when my feet are forced flat. Only experimentation can help me figure it out. It is made more difficult by the fact it often takes hours to manifest, and it doesn't always happen, which makes the experimentation hard. It might even really be diet, leading to an ionic imbalance in the muscles or nerves. (E.g., I definitely get cramps if I don't eat enough salt. In theory too much or too little Magnesium, Calcium, Manganese, etc., can create cramps too.)

In short, there are a lot of variables. There is simply no way a given brand and model of insole or insert can do the job for everyone. Any given off-the-shelf orthotic can't possibly fix foot comfort and health problems for most people.