skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: OmegaGMT on November 25, 2014, 12:53:34 PM
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As I am new to your forum I am not affiliated with Avanta in any way other than a financial supporter of a 17yr old skater wishing to complete her required testing to coach the next generation of skaters who needs new boots strong enought to hold up the the forces required for such testing
I have 40 years of skiing not skating experience and 20 years of ski hill operational experience in rental equipment, ski lift maintainence and instruction
The goal of this post is to:
Take a purchaser thru the custom boot process
Report 2 views on the product purchased - my view more objective and the skaters view more subjective
Support an industry which over the past few years has offered fewer and fewer choices
Because of my involvement in the skiing industry we also hope discuss future developments in skate boots thur the year
I will be supplying all measurements of the skaters foot direct to Avanta and doing the STS cast system myself- because of our location just north of Albany NY and the timing of the purchase we do not have the luxury to visit a dealer but we do have factory support for the STS process in Northern New Jersey if needed
I will be posting all info I have been supplied by Advanta over the next few days
I will also our reasons for choosing Avanta in the next few posts
We will not be comparing different manufactures equipment as we cannot review similar levels of equipment
Todd
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I look forward to it! My next boots will also be from Avanta. We have some posts about them that you may be interested in in this thread:
http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=5855.0
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This is great - very curious about these boots!
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I'm curious about these as well - I really like the design for Avanta that Will has come up with (it does have changes from Klingbiel), I've just been patiently waiting on hearing some "real world" reports from skaters.
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I have 4 pdf's supplied by Advanta boots - they can be found here as they are too large for the forum
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0By3C6TVbNrpIYUU0Q0E2RmJVUkU&usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0By3C6TVbNrpIYUU0Q0E2RmJVUkU&usp=sharing)
To this point all my correspondence has been Directly with:
Bill Fauver, President
Avanta Skating Boots
123 Southeast Pkwy. Court
Ste.120
Franklin, TN 37064
T: 615-403-3758
My First Communication with Advanta was a Dear sir email on October 23rd 2014
"Dear Sir:
I read about your company in the article "The evolution of the figure skate" in the "The Professional Skater" I am searching for an advanced boot for a 17 year old, 125lbs female skater looking to finish her testing requirements to coach - she is currently on 3 yr old Riedell silver stars which are no longer capable of supporting her weight in jumps.
Due to her age and time constraints I am looking into technology advances that will aid the skater in achieving her goals.
Can I get more product details and pricing on your product.
Thank you in advance"
here is the response the following day
"Todd,
I am happy to speak with you about our boots and the best number to reach me on is 617-756-0550. We are approaching the Avanta Skating Boots from a skater's perspective as we are the only skater owned and operated boot business in the country.
I look forward to speaking with you soon.
Best regards,
Bill Fauver, President
Avanta Skating Boots
123 Southeast Pkwy. Court
Ste.120
Franklin, TN 37064
T: 615-403-3758"
I called Bill that evening and we spoke about his product for about 30min
I would like to thank those of this Forum who posted information about Avanta to aid in my research - Casey - thank you!!!
Bill has also spoken directly with the skater prior to our deciding to purchase custom boots from Advanta
Advanta requested $400 down on our custom boot order - I opted to pay the full price upfront along with the fee for the STS socks and shipping, we hope to also purchase a pattern99 style blade with these boots thru Advanta
We completed the order form with a sewing tape measure in about 30min checking each measurement twice for accuracy and emailed a picture of each completed order form along with picture of the skaters current skates with a tape measure laid along the heel
Today I spoke with Bill about the STS system and he again offered podiatrist help in upstate NJ should we need it - Bill says the key to the sock is not having any pressure on the toes when standing - I will have a post detailing the STS process
Currently Bill, I and the skater are in discussions about the "firmness" of the boot in relation to a female the skater who is 5'3" tall and weighs 123lbs working toward a double axel and senior testing - the "firmness is a core function of Advanta and most likely other boots and is determined early in the construction process
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As I said in my initial email to Bill, we were looking for technology to achieve a goal.
Boot weight
One can can watch other sports and trade many ideas. A common one is related to auto racing and a concept called un-sprung weight. Un-sprung weight is the weight not carried by the cars suspension or on the case of skating weight below the ankle which performs the same function as the cars springs and shocks. To much un-sprung weight puts to much stress on the suspension system resulting in breakage. Because of my knowledge with my Miata which is very much effected by unsprung weight I did a lot of research in the Ice Fly boot but due to the costs and materials and expected life of the boot for our use turned it down - (for young light advanced skaters this looks to be an excellent choice as they are like the Miata are hampered by unsprung weight)
Boot tech
Bill at Avanta has some interesting patents which should have a greet effect on the "skaters suspension" he hopes to bring an adgustable suspension boot to market. His patent is not sport dependant and could be used in other areas such as skiing, hiking, basketball. In one of my discussions with Bill he expressed a desire to have a prototype produced in the next year so as our custom boot degrades we hope to transition into his new design - as trade secrets are generally held close to the vest - the best info is a publicly available patent which may or may not be exactly what Bill I discussed
Here is a link to one of his patents
http://www.google.com/patents/US20030204971 (http://www.google.com/patents/US20030204971)
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Boot weight
I agree about "unsprung" weight, although the term doesn't exactly apply here as there is no suspension between the boot and the skater. Nonetheless, I agree with what you're suggesting about it mattering more to younger lighter skaters and the weight being at the tip of the legs does mean it matters more than, say, weight on the thighs. On a Miata you can tell the difference - on a 4000-lb Mercedes sedan, you cannot (I've alternated between steel and aluminum rims on such a vehicle to find out). I personally don't find boot/blade weight to be any issue at all, and prefer traditional materials.
The default Avanta boot incorporates a layer of carbon fiber (same material Edea uses) between the leather layers of the boot uppers, which reduces weight while maintaining strength. I don't think that I want that, personally, but Bill said they could make an all-leather boot on request with no problem. It is nice that the option is there for those who want a lighter boot.
Looking at the PDF's you shared, it is interesting that they carry Skate Science blades. I will been curious about these but few have tried them yet. My inclination is to return to Gold Seals for my next blades but the Skate Science blades intrigue me. You mention above that you are looking to get a "Pattern 99 style" blade - may I ask which specific blade you are considering? A Wilson blade or another brand with a similar profile?
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For blades we are using the following requirements
Ease of transition - thus no pattern change
Manufacturer
Materials
Less Weight
The current blades are 10" Wilson Pattern 99
The skater is confident with the pattern and manufacturer
Our preference in order
(1) HD Sports Wilson Pattern 99
(2) Riedell Eclipse infinity Titanium
Both have their minuses
The HS Sport unit is avaibility - maybe mid January due to a change in the supplier who makes the carbon fiber portion
The Riedell unit is the potential brittleness of the Titanium in the cold
We did look at the CNC aluminum units with steel blade inserts but I am not a fan of this mixture of metals due to the potential of corrosion - even BMW uses special bolts in their aluminum engines because of this potential issue - this does not mean that there is any issue with this type of blade, it is just not for us and we have the monitary means to select a different product
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The HS Sport unit is avaibility - maybe mid January due to a change in the supplier who makes the carbon fiber portion
Ahh, you are talking about Revolution blades then...is this also to reduce weight? Is using the current blades until the newer ones become available an option to consider? (I'm assuming the current blades are standard Pattern 99's?)
The Riedell unit is the potential brittleness of the Titanium in the cold
I have no experience with Reidell blades, and had not heard of titanium being brittle in the cold before - interesting to know. One thing to keep in mind is that the blades may be taller even though they have a similar rocker profile. This is the case with Paramount's Pattern 99-profile blades (I have them currently).
We did look at the CNC aluminum units with steel blade inserts but I am not a fan of this mixture of metals due to the potential of crosion - even BMW uses special bolts in their aluminum engines because of this potential issue - this does not mean that there is any issue with this type of blade, it is just not for us and we have the monitary means to select a different product
I personally am not a big fan of them either. I have them now and they aren't for me. As you said about Ice Flys perhaps being better for younger lighter skaters, I think the same may also be true of these. It may also be that I simply do not adapt well to the Pattern 99 profile at all - for me personally the Gold Seal profile worked much better. So while I am not claiming they are awful blades, for me personally they aren't a good fit.
Good luck with whichever blades you decide on. Will you also be letting us know how the break-in is with the new boots? I am curious if the casting method helps with this at all...
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As a person new to this sport that costs thousands of dollars to compete in I personally don't understand why there is so little information to make an informed decision with
I asked my skater how did you choose your last set of blades and boots
The answer was we did what the coach and dealer said
I looked at her and said
Would you go to the car dealer and say
I have a family with
2.1 kids
1.7 cats
0.7 dogs
We vacation at the beach in southern NJ on the bay side
My school is 3.2 miles one way
My office is 10.6 miles one way
Which car do I buy
Her 17 yr old response was "NO"
To which I said why would you trust your body to someone who makes money just selling a product with no license to practice
One only has to google "skater feet" to understand why we have decided to produce this thread/post
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As a person new to this sport that costs thousands of dollars to compete in I personally don't understand why there is so little information to make an informed decision with
I asked my skater how did you choose your last set of blades and boots
The answer was we did what the coach and dealer said
I looked at her and said
Would you go to the car dealer and say
I have a family with
2.1 kids
1.7 cats
0.7 dogs
We vacation at the beach in southern NJ on the bay side
My school is 3.2 miles one way
My office is 10.6 miles one way
Which car do I buy
Her 17 yr old response was "NO"
To which I said why would you trust your body to someone who makes money just selling a product with no license to practice
One only has to google "skater feet" to understand why we have decided to produce this thread/post
For starters, I would have asked "Specifically, which town in southern NJ?" But more to the point, I think 99% of figure skaters rely on judgement from their coach and skate technician/boot fitter. Some of those folks have deep knowledge having spent years in the sport, others not so much. One does need to gauge that aspect so that the advice is coming from someone knowledgeable rather than the village idiot. But, at least in my experience, coaches and skate techs do tend to know more about equipment than the skater. Finally, good dealers do want repeat customers.
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I had coach who had a theory about skater height and boot rocker. I always thought it was bogus.
I have a theory about rocker position on the blade relative to the foot. Blades are designed for average feet. Most people have these, so most blades fit them. I have issues w/ getting the rocker where I want it, and I've begun thinking about having my fitter compare the blade to my foot before he puts it on the boot, just to see if there's a way to mark the rocker, the boot, and my foot, so they all line up before he starts to drill.
I have creditable expertise making my boots fit, and my fitter just told me to go ahead and make my own blade adjustments while the blades are on the test setting. I just can't get myself to do that. I was able to get the rocker on the right foot perfect by doing things inside the boot, but left foot, I think he'll have to move it.
I think all this effort could be reduced if things were marked and compared before putting it together.
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I asked my skater how did you choose your last set of blades and boots
The answer was we did what the coach and dealer said
I looked at her and said
Would you go to the car dealer and say
I have a family with
2.1 kids
1.7 cats
0.7 dogs
We vacation at the beach in southern NJ on the bay side
My school is 3.2 miles one way
My office is 10.6 miles one way
Which car do I buy
Her 17 yr old response was "NO"
To which I said why would you trust your body to someone who makes money just selling a product with no license to practice
This sounds like the conversation I had with Warren, who started SkateScience. The reality is that most people buy whatever their coach tells them, or else whatever is popular at their rink. He made a comparison similar to what you wrote here. The most respected blade designs are quite old, from a time before the sport had progressed nearly so much. His claim was that newer technology could design blades more optimal for modern skating. I don't know - while the older design may not have been arrived at so scientifically it seems to work well for many great skaters and has stood the test of time. I guess time will tell whether these new blades will actually take off. Also I think that a decent coach would have not only significant personal experience but also a lot of knowledge of the experiences of peers during their skating days and students since, though there may also be a significant degree of personal bias...
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Also I think that a decent coach would have not only significant personal experience but also a lot of knowledge of the experiences of peers during their skating days and students since, though their may also be a significant degree of personal bias...
This is especially true... my own coach "doesn't like" paramounts. I have them, and I've skated on them for about 3 years now (maybe a little longer), and she has no problem with that (plus I am an adult and will buy what I like), but she says she'd NEVER recommend them to a student. Her reasons why are somewhat superficial and based largely on hearsay, not actual experiences, but most coaches I know are somewhat reluctant to try new things, especially when it involves a new product from a new or relatively new company (and even though Paramount has been around a while, it's still comparatively "new").
I love my blades, and I will probably stick with them for the foreseeable future, mostly because I like the feel of stainless on the ice, and I can keep my beloved Phantom profile.
Skate Science is even newer, but since they tend to be on display at a lot of local competitions I think I see more skaters in those blades than one might encounter throughout the rest of the country.. the overall opinion seems to be positive, but many coaches still seem reluctant to "let" their skaters try them out.
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We a 150 plus miles from large population centers on the east coast - Albany is called Smallbany for a reason
Mostly lack of everything
Our choices are NYC, Boston and Philly
We are not competing and our schedules do not allow for travel so the Avanta boot process offers us a compromise
Today I would like to thank alll of you who have brought forth comments and I hope that others who are purchasing products would begin posts like this to help others entering and continuing it this sport make informed decisions - to all in this sport - please take the time to reflect on the past year and thank those who have made a difference in your life
Lutefisk - wildwood crest(the beach and water temp), and cape may (the Victorian homes, stone beach)
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I wish Avanta provided more data about options and prices on their website. My old Klingbeils are dying.
They've got great people and interesting ideas, but we need some guinea pigs to try them out, and review their boots and customer service for us.
We did look at the CNC aluminum units with steel blade inserts but I am not a fan of this mixture of metals due to the potential of corrosion
I guess you mean Jackson Ultima Matrix and Paramount blades...
Jackson and/or Paramount have an adhesive between the runners and the mounting chassis that might prevent such rust - but I don't know the details or effectiveness.
Jackson also uses steel rivets or screws to reinforce the adhesive. Perhaps there is adhesive, coating or washer on the rivets or bolts to prevent such corrosion there too?
I've had the older Jackson Ultima Matrix 1 blades for years. I see no significant corrosion. But that design was different - no adhesive, aluminum (I think) bolts.
Has anyone seen corrosion problems on Jackson or Paramount blades around the interface between the two metals?
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You probably won't see the steel blade corroding. Aluminum is slightly more anodic than carbon steel, and it would become the sacrificial metal, not the steel. The galvanic potential between those two metals is very small though. I did find curious that stainless steel and aluminum have a higher galvanic potential than aluminum with carbon steels.
Now if you skated on saltwater, you'd probably want to take extra measures. Otherwise, I'd just skate and be happy.
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Post some pics of your new Avanta boots and blades, if possible, when you get them. I'm really interested in seeing what they look like . Thanks
Jon in ohio
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Lutefisk - wildwood crest(the beach and water temp), and cape may (the Victorian homes, stone beach)
I like Cape May, for the reasons you've mentioned (and also for several good Cape May County wineries) but having grown up on the island of Brigantine (next barrier island north of AC) I'm kinda partial to that beach. Besides, there's a rink (Flyer's Skate Zone) close by in west Atlantic City in case I tire of the sun and sand.
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I will supply pictures , detail the STS process from both the skater and applier's view but we are a few weeks out on the boots
As for the isle of Brigantine ..... How is the old castle on the north end of the isle
Query - do not be shy email or call Bill at Advanta unlike the owner of the Yankee's but like the owner of Hendrick Racing(drivers Jeff Gordon, jimmy Johnson, Dale Earnhardt Jr. and Kasey Kahne) Bill will return your call and answer any questions you have - in our case both myself and the skater I am supporting - if you are put off by Harlick's nickle and dime pricing process Avanta maybe the choice for you - the 5th post of this thread provides a link to the basic Advanta documents to order boots
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I did find curious that stainless steel and aluminum have a higher galvanic potential than aluminum with carbon steels.
Now if you skated on saltwater, you'd probably want to take extra measures. Otherwise, I'd just skate and be happy.
Ultima Matrix blades use stainless steel, though it has to be a high carbon alloy to be sufficiently hard and durable. My personal experience with the older model has been that rust is simply not an issue, though to be fair, I wipe them dry and store them uncovered, and I've never used them on salt water ice. Matrix blades have been around long enough that such problems would be well known if they were a major issue.
What materials would you use for saltwater? My personal experience from sea kayaks, is that even aluminum and the most rust resistant marine grade steel alloys, which are incidentally much softer than 318 alloy, so wouldn't be very durable, eventually corrode beyond usefulness. You could coat the chassis and the sides of the blades with epoxy, but what about the working surface? I've an old Tekna dive knife (https://www.google.com/search?q=tekna+dive+knife&client=firefox-a&hs=jid&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&imgil=cSdqGj5QxxbjeM%253A%253Bc9GsgTxmZraEgM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.em-mgt.com%25252FLED%25252FTektitetekna.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=cSdqGj5QxxbjeM%253A%252Cc9GsgTxmZraEgM%252C_&usg=__nFzFz2yauvTU-K8Is2kRjpeECi4%3D&biw=1280&bih=649&ved=0CEkQyjc&ei=0aJ6VKKdBrO1sQTsnIKgBw#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=cSdqGj5QxxbjeM%253A%3Bc9GsgTxmZraEgM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.em-mgt.com%252FLED%252FImages%252FOcean2.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.em-mgt.com%252FLED%252FTektitetekna.html%3B425%3B217) (for kayak use), whose instructions say to wash it clean of salt immediately after use. Is that the only approach for a hardened blade in salt water?
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Geeky reply alert!
I doubt that anyone will be skating on frozen sea water. Even if you did, the frozen water itself would contain very little salt.
Still, this is a fun topic to think about.
I see a lot of diving knives made from 420 stainless, but they don't have to be fastened to a sole plate like skate blades. The 420 alloy doesn't weld easily. I'm not sure about how lower temperature brazing/silver soldering would affect it. However, it has a good hardness up to 55 RockwellC in it's normal hardened state. http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_products/stainless/martensitic/420_data_sheet.pdf (http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_products/stainless/martensitic/420_data_sheet.pdf) Like most stainless, it's resistant to saltwater but not impervious.
Titanium is completely unaffected by saltwater, but doesn't have quite the hardness of most steels (up to 47RC as claimed by Mission Knive's data sheet http://www.missionknives.com/index.php/why-titanium (http://www.missionknives.com/index.php/why-titanium)) Still, the corrosion resistance and strength offered by titanium is what is offered in return. It's apparently used by the Navy Seals. Mission doesn't specify the alloy for their knives, so I'm unsure about how easily it would be to weld or fabricate it into skate blades. Knife blades are simpler shapes to manufacture, eliminating the need to be welded or brazed.
Right now, there are generally two schools of thought for skate blade materials -
1) Use a high-carbon steel (cheap, proven effective, easy to stamp, braze, and form). It responds nicely to heat treatment for case hardening the outside surface while leaving the center more ductile. Unfortunately, it rusts easily so chrome plating is necessary except for the "business end". That bit of bare steel in particular requires drying and proper storage.
2) Use a stainless alloy for corrosion resistance which eliminates the need for plating. If the whole blade must be stainless, there will be tradeoffs made when selecting the alloy to enable the fabricating of the entire blade (welding, brazing, and silver solder all present challenges). If the blade is just a runner, tradeoffs are fewer, and an alloy can be selected to maximize blade edge hardness and wear.
Oh, this is getting geeky. I'd better stop!
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Paramount blades are available with runners in carbon steel, 420 stainless, or (most expensive) 440 stainless. Mine are 440.
The edges retain sharpness extremely well. I had them sharpened once, after I bought them, over five years ago. Granted I was not skating regularly during that time, but I did use them periodically, and more recently have been using frequently with no sign of edge degredation at all yet.
The bigger issue with the two different metals I think is because they expand/contract at different rates. Warren at Skate Science said this is why they are loud on the ice, and can also cause the runners to separate in time. They are indeed loud, and this is a common complaint owners of Paramounts have.
I don't know if I would like solid stainless steel blades (like Skate Science makes) or not as I have never tried them. I would be happy to go back to carbon steel blades after the Paramounts, not only but in part due to the loudness on the ice, and rigidity which is mainly due to the aluminum frame.
I do not know what grade of stainless Skate Science uses, but while it is said to hold sharpness longer than carbon blades, I do not think it is as insane as 440. Probably as Bill pointed out it's possible to use this grade for a runner but has other issues that prevent it from working for an entire blade.
Bill - do you know if stainless is generally more rigid than carbon? The Paramounts are very rigid which I think might be why I don't favor the "feel" of them on the ice. I wonder how rigid a solid stainless blade would be in comparison to carbon. Wilson used to advertise the flex of the metal as a beneficial property...
Disclaimer: before anyone reads too far into this, I think my biggest issue with the Paramounts is the Pattern 99 profile. I have not tried Gold Seal profile Paramounts to be able to give a more isolated comparison...
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By rigid if mean how much deflection there is with an applied load, then stainless is slightly lower than carbon steel in that regard. 420 stainless has a Young's modulus of 29,000,000 while 1075 carbon steel is slightly stiffer at 30,000,000 psi. Young's modulus is a kind of "spring rate" of a material for a given cross section. If you are talking about resisting permanent deformation, yield strength numbers can shed some light. Hardened and stress relieved 420 stainless has a slightly lower yield strength of up to 195,000 psi compared to about 220,000 for the carbon steel. The carbon steel comes out ahead there too, but really the differences are very small.
Remember that the mechanical mounting method of a runner can significantly affect it's resistance to deflection (rigidity). A mount/frame with a large cross-section can impart strength and keep a thin runner from deflecting. IIRC, if you double the frame width, lateral stiffness increases 4X. Since most frame blade mounts are aluminum (1/3 the stiffness of steel per area), the mount can be made as stiff as a solid steel stanchion if its thickness is sqrt (3) = 1.7 times the blade thickness.
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By rigid if mean how much deflection there is with an applied load, then stainless is slightly lower than carbon steel in that regard. 420 stainless has a Young's modulus of 29,000,000 while 1075 carbon steel is slightly stiffer at 30,000,000 psi. Young's modulus is a kind of "spring rate" of a material for a given cross section. If you are talking about resisting permanent deformation, yield strength numbers can shed some light. Hardened and stress relieved 420 stainless has a slightly lower yield strength of up to 195,000 psi compared to about 220,000 for the carbon steel. The carbon steel comes out ahead there too, but really the differences are very small.
Wow at the details! Sounds like they are close, which is good enough for me. At least SS is not LESS flexible, which was my concern.
Remember that the mechanical mounting method of a runner can significantly affect it's resistance to deflection (rigidity). A mount/frame with a large cross-section can impart strength and keep a thin runner from deflecting. IIRC, if you double the frame width, lateral stiffness increases 4X. Since most frame blade mounts are aluminum (1/3 the stiffness of steel per area), the mount can be made as stiff as a solid steel stanchion if its thickness is sqrt (3) = 1.7 times the blade thickness.
Well my method is not scientific, but when I take same-sized pieces of carbon steel and aluminum, the steel I can bend a bit, but not stay bent (permanently deform). The aluminum, on the other hand, does not flex/spring at all, unless it permanently bends. That's what I mean when I say aluminum is more rigid, and it's what I reckon makes the Paramount blades "feel different" on the ice. It could also be my imagination...not really sure how much a good steel blade actually flexes under my weight.
I wonder why Wilson and MK never made a stainless version of anybof their blades...
P.S. Maybe we should move this discussion to a new thread?
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[MORE GEEK ALERT]
I doubt that anyone will be skating on frozen sea water. Even if you did, the frozen water itself would contain very little salt.
In coastal areas, there are a lot of somewhat salty tidal rivers, canals and wetlands that do freeze on top, where some people skate, though I never have. BTW new sea ice has a lot of embedded salt, though icebergs (which form from fresh water) don't.
Does anyone weld ice skating blades together? Solder (silver solder on upper end blades), rivets, adhesives, and screws seem to be more common.
FWIIW, most blade frames/mounting chassis are steel, not aluminum. (With a few expensive exceptions. And HD Sports Revolution blades don't use either.) Both the runners and frames are steel.
Why isn't titanium used in most upper end skate blades? I'm not sure about hardened alloys, but pure titanium is about $6/kg - so the material costs might only be $1 - $2 / pair. If my source is right, HD Sports (MK / Wilson) high end blades are about Rockwell hardness 60 at the edge - a little harder - which I think is harder than titanium could be, but I would think the corrosion resistance would be worth it. There are reasonably priced adhesives that bond to titanium (though you have to prepare the surface, as you do for aluminum), as well as titanium screws, so I assume that isn't the problem.
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Why isn't titanium used in most upper end skate blades? I'm not sure about hardened alloys, but pure titanium is about $6/kg - so the material costs might only be $1 - $2 / pair. If my source is right, HD Sports (MK / Wilson) high end blades are about Rockwell hardness 60 at the edge - a little harder - which I think is harder than titanium could be, but I would think the corrosion resistance would be worth it. There are reasonably priced adhesives that bond to titanium (though you have to prepare the surface, as you do for aluminum), as well as titanium screws, so I assume that isn't the problem.
I'm not as familiar with titanium, but doesn't it have the same "extremely rigid but when it does bend it stays bent" property as aluminum?
As for material costs - there is no skate blade that costs more than a trivial amount in materials to make. But you also need appropriate machinery, skilled staff, a place for skilled staff to work, quality control, marketing, and it's not like you can rely on selling hundreds of thousands of sets a year, which is where the cost adds up. At least what used to separate some brands of blades was the hardening process used. Aluminum frames can be inexpensively machined by a third party, perhaps titanium too. Solid steel blades take more work, and need hardened properly. If a company is making them mostly by hand due to low production volume, the hours involved can add up. Ultimately though, equipment costs a lot less than ice time and coaching!
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Query: I agree that most blades are all steel, but I was talking about the interchangeable runner blades like Paramount ...from their web site "Paramount blade holders are made from a lightweight aircraft aluminum with a high quality steel runner." I suspect that these aluminum blade holders are die cast, but I could be wrong.
Titanium won't get as hard as steel alloys. The most common grade (Ti 6Al-4V) has a hardness spec of 34 Rockwell C which is fairly low. Edge life would be compromised. Of course there are other Ti alloys that are harder, but what gets traded in return? Each metal alloy has its strengths and weaknesses.
I don't know of anyone welding the right-angle pieces of good blades together (maybe department store cheapies), but the reason probably has to do with undesirable heating of the base metal to a high temperature. Once alloying compounds are introduced, welding heat can wreak havoc with strength, hardness, and other properties. It could even warp the blade. As a result, most are brazed or silver soldered using local induction heating instead of flame. That means fairly low temperatures and localized heating. BTW, I'd never trust an adhesive in the narrow boundary between blade and sole plate. If the surface area of glued contact could be made larger, sure. But a narrow blade cross-section presents a serious problem for something as materially weak as an adhesive.
Casey: Titanium alloys span the gamut from very flexible spring material (it's actually used in aerospace coil springs!) to glass-brittle resulting from a poor weld joint. The flexibility you mention would depend in great part on the alloy and how it was prepared.
Be careful about stereotyping metals - when someone says "Aluminum" or "Titanium", remember that there are all sorts of varieties of these materials. What is the particular alloy? Is it in the soft annealed condition? What heat treatment did it received? Is it cold worked? There are some stereotypes in this thread (titanium is always brittle) that are simply not true. Equally true is that there are compromises made in any manufacturing method and material. For example, if you want more hardness for wear resistance, what are you willing to give up in return?
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I'll add this link to an interesting description about how Wilson and M&K blades are made. It is good reading from the old rssir newsgroup that was so active a dozen years ago.
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/sports/skating/ice/rec-skate/blades/ (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/sports/skating/ice/rec-skate/blades/)
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We are way off-thread here. My fault.
the interchangeable runner blades like Paramount
The ones I have seen look interchangeable, but are actually glued. AFAIK, no modern figure skate blade has interchangeable runners.
Adhesives aren't always weak. Back on-thread, the Avanta boots, if made the way I think they are, are a composite in which carbon fiber provides most of the tensile strength, but an adhesive resin (epoxy? polyethylene? ??) provides everything else. A classic ultralight marine/aerospace construction method, also used for hockey equipment.
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Adhesives aren't always weak.
A more pertinent example for blades would have been the blade holders in the very high end MK and Wilson brand Revolution blades, which are presumably held together, and probably bound to the titanium/steel alloy runners, by adhesive resins. And even the Paramount blades, aluminum-glued-to-steel, haven't broken for most users.
On the other hand, where I rink guard, a customer just had a blade that had sheered off from a cheap (maybe $50 retail) pair of skates and blades)...
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Klingbeil used to be the cheapest fully custom boot. Will Avanta be? I've emailed them for a list of prices and options, and will post their reply.
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Klingbeil used to be the cheapest fully custom boot. Will Avanta be? I've emailed them for a list of prices and options, and will post their reply.
No, their pricing is higher, however it is a fixed pricing model like Klingbeil had rather than Harlick's model.
Let's face it, Klingbeil had outdated pricing. :)
P.S. I started a new thread for ongoing blade detail discussion.
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Klingbeil used to be the cheapest fully custom boot. Will Avanta be? I've emailed them for a list of prices and options, and will post their reply.
link to pricing docs as posed earlier in this thread
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0By3C6TVbNrpIYUU0Q0E2RmJVUkU&usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0By3C6TVbNrpIYUU0Q0E2RmJVUkU&usp=sharing)
with this info in hand give Bill at Advanta a call to discuss your needs one on one - if your requests are reasonable, as in our case there is no extra cost like a Harlick
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Sorry for the delay
after finally getting the financials worked out - ie repeating my credit card # correctly to Bill while on vacation over the Thanksgiving weekend we are moving forward
early last week the STS socks have been shipped directly to the skater and we are awaiting their arrival
there will be plenty of pictures, comments and if we are lucky videos on the STS process
we know we will need 2 one foot square pieces of 1" foam pad for the skater to stand on
the skater needs to stand in their natural stance
the skater must NOT curl or over extent their toes
the sock must be squished it to every interior curve - the finished sock must be an accurate mold of the skaters foot
the sock must be wrinkle free
Bill has requested that the skater and I, as a team, speak directly with him one last time before we begin the work on the sock as we are proceeding on our own without dealer support based on our geographic location and scheduling - again Bill at Advanta has requested we visit a Skating Father in the medical field who would complete the sock work of us at no charge - Based on my work in the ski industry and the field of study of the skater Bill has agreed to let us attempt the STS process on our own
it is our hope that thru our experience with Avanta we will change the way skate boots are sold, fit - both the skater and I hope to provide the tools to bring the experience of a custom boot to skaters located away from the major metropolitan areas providing them with the tools they need to achieve their dreams - having grown up with a skier, Bill Enos who started his career on a "hill" of 270 vertical feet went on to be the Coach for US snowboard slopestyle team at the Olympics, which won two gold medals in the sport's debut at the 2014 Winter Games. - I believe this can be done
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Video of the STS casting process:
http://youtu.be/JN1vP8NGz-o
Should allow for a great custom fit!
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Just watched that video.
Ladies, am I wrong, or won't some people view this as an invasion of privacy? Especially if the fitter is male, and the skater is a young girl, or if the skater is wearing a dress. In any event, the foot-to-calf contact and massages needed to work in the resin seem a bit personal. I think you could design a one piece sock (of a size close to that of the skater) that incorporates everything (inner bag, outer cloth+resin), and doesn't need all that extra stuff and procedures. You just take it out of the bag, let it set, and unzip (back the zipper with a cloth, so the zipper imprint doesn't go on the mold) the opening, and take it off. That would also make self-fit a lot easier. Seriously.
And there is really no need to use medical lingo. This is meant to be used by outside fitters too, yes?
This casting sock also goes higher than is needed for skates, which contributes to potential privacy issues. Perhaps it should be trimmed to skate height - though I see it is available in other heights.
I'm also a little confused. If you use the casting sock, why should other measurements be needed?
There is a potential ambiguity in the instructions. What posture should the foot be held in for skating? I would think you should be standing over the foot to mimic skating - and if that flattens the foot to an uncomfortable extent, that you should stand on an insole patterned or fit to your foot more comfortably.
Based on this link (http://www.alimed.com/sts-fitted-polyester-casting-socks.html?atrkid=V1ADWA342718F-13914725524-k-%2Bcasting+%2Bsock-46603757404-b-g-m-1o3&gclid=CIW2ju6py8ICFbBm7AodnlAAFA), the casting sock will cost close to $200. Plus the cost of the fit. Oh. My. !
Thoughts?
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Ladies, am I wrong, or won't some people view this as an invasion of privacy? Especially if the fitter is male, and the skater is a young girl, or if the skater is wearing a dress. In any event, the foot-to-calf contact and massages needed to work in the resin seem a bit personal.
Lol what? I can't take this seriously...
And there is really no need to use medical lingo. This is meant to be used by outside fitters too, yes?
It's not a video for skaters (or fitters). It's for podiatrists (medical doctors). Which is where Avanta generally sends you (at their cost) for casting unless you can visit them in person.
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Oh. I thought they intended generic skate fitters to do the job.
If you go to a podiatrist, I think that's about $300 - $400, plus close to $200 / foot for the casts. You could roughly double the cost of your skates that way.
Maybe most people won't get foot casts, but will just take measurements? Or maybe Avanta won't deal with non-podiatrist fitters?
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Oh. I thought they intended generic skate fitters to do the job.
If you go to a podiatrist, I think that's about $300 - $400, plus close to $200 / foot for the casts. You could roughly double the cost of your skates that way.
Maybe most people won't get foot casts, but will just take measurements? Or maybe Avanta won't deal with non-podiatrist fitters?
Why not call Bill and chat instead of guessing?
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It's not efficient for us - or for Bill - to contact him repeatedly to get the basics. I'd love to see links to these things on the web site.
I did contact him previously, asking for info about prices and options.
He emailed documents for ordering Avanta boots, taking measurements, and instructions on using STS casting socks. (Some of the same attachments as were archived at https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0By3C6TVbNrpIYUU0Q0E2RmJVUkU&usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0By3C6TVbNrpIYUU0Q0E2RmJVUkU&usp=sharing)).
The latter document was clearly aimed at professionals who fit multiple skaters, but it didn't mention podiatrists. Unlike the video, it avoids medical lingo (good!), and discusses using a "strong scissors" instead of the medical scissors advocated by the video, and the procedure uses a letter opener instead of medical tools. So it never occurred to me they meant the document to be used by anyone other than ordinary pro shop boot fitters.
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"They" (Avanta) did not make the video I shared, nor did they create STS casting. It's just a nice video from youtube. From my recollection, you can go to Avanta in person, visit an authorized fitter (there isn't one near us), or they will send you to a podiatrist - in that order of preference.
I think it IS the most efficient to ask your questions directly, and share the answers. That's what I did, but I didn't have the same questions...
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Uh... then don't wear a skirt if you're uncomfortable with that? And seriously... I just can't picture anyone being concerned with this or having privacy issues unless some other issue or discomfort with people in general or personal touch was involved. I don't mean to be rude but this looked pretty benign to me. And as for the fitter being a dude working on a young girl, that is so, so judgemental of a situation that is most likely going to be completely benign as well. Wow.
As for a self fit - if I'm spending over a grand on custom skates, you'd better bet I'm getting someone more knowledgeable than myself to do this.
Just watched that video.
Ladies, am I wrong, or won't some people view this as an invasion of privacy? Especially if the fitter is male, and the skater is a young girl, or if the skater is wearing a dress. In any event, the foot-to-calf contact and massages needed to work in the resin seem a bit personal. I think you could design a one piece sock (of a size close to that of the skater) that incorporates everything (inner bag, outer cloth+resin), and doesn't need all that extra stuff and procedures. You just take it out of the bag, let it set, and unzip (back the zipper with a cloth, so the zipper imprint doesn't go on the mold) the opening, and take it off. That would also make self-fit a lot easier. Seriously.
And there is really no need to use medical lingo. This is meant to be used by outside fitters too, yes?
This casting sock also goes higher than is needed for skates, which contributes to potential privacy issues. Perhaps it should be trimmed to skate height - though I see it is available in other heights.
I'm also a little confused. If you use the casting sock, why should other measurements be needed?
There is a potential ambiguity in the instructions. What posture should the foot be held in for skating? I would think you should be standing over the foot to mimic skating - and if that flattens the foot to an uncomfortable extent, that you should stand on an insole patterned or fit to your foot more comfortably.
Based on this link (http://www.alimed.com/sts-fitted-polyester-casting-socks.html?atrkid=V1ADWA342718F-13914725524-k-%2Bcasting+%2Bsock-46603757404-b-g-m-1o3&gclid=CIW2ju6py8ICFbBm7AodnlAAFA), the casting sock will cost close to $200. Plus the cost of the fit. Oh. My. !
Thoughts?
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Uh... then don't wear a skirt if you're uncomfortable with that? And seriously... I just can't picture anyone being concerned with this or having privacy issues unless some other issue or discomfort with people in general or personal touch was involved. I don't mean to be rude but this looked pretty benign to me. And as for the fitter being a dude working on a young girl, that is so, so judgemental of a situation that is most likely going to be completely benign as well. Wow.
As for a self fit - if I'm spending over a grand on custom skates, you'd better bet I'm getting someone more knowledgeable than myself to do this.
Our purpose is to show and help those who can't get to a fitter to get a custom boot - we can get to Avanta's choice in northern NJ but we CHOOSE to use our knowledge and ability to further the sport and help a US manufacturer get some momentum in a difficult market - Over the past 6 years the Skating Sport has lost quite a few manufacturers, and vendors
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Link to pictures and docs
https://docs.google.com/folderview?id=0By3C6TVbNrpIYUU0Q0E2RmJVUkU&usp=docslist_api
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Did you mean to reply to someone else? My post didn't say anything about non-us manufacturers or anything. I'm a little confused. I was talking about the person who found the fitting process 'personal' which I thought was a little silly.
Our purpose is to show and help those who can't get to a fitter to get a custom boot - we can get to Avanta's choice in northern NJ but we CHOOSE to use our knowledge and ability to further the sport and help a US manufacturer get some momentum in a difficult market - Over the past 6 years the Skating Sport has lost quite a few manufacturers, and vendors
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Did you mean to reply to someone else? My post didn't say anything about non-us manufacturers or anything. I'm a little confused. I was talking about the person who found the fitting process 'personal' which I thought was a little silly.
Sorry, You are correct - I was commenting on the "personal" also
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Today we completed the STS casts - this was very easy
we need a spot on the floor we could get wet and not care so much - so we used the rental shop floor of the ski area we both work at - so cleanup was easy - wipe up with a paper towel
total time from start to finish less than 30 min - total cast time was about 15min
we unpacked and laid out the materials
2- foot protectors - the "letter opener glides along these when cutting the casts open to remove them
2 - foot bags
1 - pair of black gloves
1 - pair of STS Socks
we supplied
2 - one inch thick pieces of soft foam - for the skater to stand on
1- roll of electrical tape - to attach the foot protectors to the skaters foot
1/2 gallon of "ROOM TEMPERATURE" water
the skater wore leggings that could be pulled up to the knee
ant this point the skater is sitting
we taped the foot protectors on the leg and around the foot to hold then in place in the area where the laces of a boot would go
then we slid the foot bags over the foot and up the leg
I chose to do both feet at the same time - I had enlisted help just in case - but I did not need help
I removed the first sock from the protective bag and found the sock rolled in a plastic sheet - I unrolled the sock
next I rolled the sock back on its self - like a woman would do to put on nylons - to 3-4" shy of the toe line
I dipped the rolled back sock in the "room temp" water for about 5 seconds
then I slid the sock over the skaters foot and began rolling the sock over the skaters foot, ankle and leg making sure I did not leave wrinkles
I ran my hands from the skaters toe to calve - the sock had not yet setup yet
next I reaped the steps above for the second foot
at this point I instructed the skater to stand
I returned to the first sock and it had started to harden by now and with firm pressure I massaged the sock over the skaters foot and then did the same for the second foot
next I took a pair of sharp scissors and nipped the top of the socks about 1/2" in to make the letter opener easier to start - the continued to massage the socks over the skaters foot as they continued to harden providing a snug fit
after about 8 min the socks could no longer be manipulated and the socks are now curing for about 10 minutes
once the socks were firm and no longer accepted changes I began cleaning up the extra water with paper towers
after about 17-18 min I had the skater sit and I used the letter opener to slice the front of the STS socks
then removed the STS sock like a ski boot by pulling the sock gently aside and slipping the foot free
I reviewed the casts with the skater and asked if there were loose areas and we marked them with a colored sharpie as a precaution
level of difficulty - if you can put socks on a child you can do this process - this was surprisingly EASY
I will gladly answer any questions
link to pictures
https://docs.google.com/folderview?id=0By3C6TVbNrpIYUU0Q0E2RmJVUkU&usp=docslist_api (https://docs.google.com/folderview?id=0By3C6TVbNrpIYUU0Q0E2RmJVUkU&usp=docslist_api)
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Love the pictures, thank you for sharing. She looks happy!
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we are working on the video we made of the STS fitting
the raw video is over 850Mb in size and 22min long
below is a link to the raw video to anyone interested in doing an STS fitting
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0By3C6TVbNrpITVFnUzBqLUpCaHM&usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0By3C6TVbNrpITVFnUzBqLUpCaHM&usp=sharing)
and this video is made by group of people who work together in the ski industry so the only thing in common is the skater(we all work together), the cold, and ill fitting production boots - our comments are candid, this video is rated PG for language and adult themes
we will be applying a fast forward technique, remove most of the audio as the video was actual capture not production quality and adding instructional text
the STS casts should now be in Advanta's hands but due to the holidays I have not heard back from Bill - I will reach out on January 5, 2015
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I spoke with Bill at Avanta today for the first time since Avanta received our Casts before the holidays
We have completed our task of making the casts successfully and the boots are moving forward
at this point Avanta is sourcing Wilson Revolution Pattern 99's as the primary blade choice
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Friday morning 1/9 - Bill called and confirmed that Wilson Pattern 99 Revolution blades are on their way
if all goes well the completed skates should ship 1/23 and pictures will be posted ASAP
the skater and myself fill complete the final blade alignment and document our process
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this evening 1/29 7pm ish EST I received a phone call from Will Murillo about the custom skates(boots and blades) I purchased for a skating friend - Will asked us to call with any issues we might have once the boots arrive next week and throughout their life. I happened to be with the skater and they spoke for between 5 and 10 mins about boot break-in and maintenance - as it was a high volume homework night thus I did not get the details of the phone call but I will get them over the weekend
this means pictures are soon to follow
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Looking very much forward to it! Good luck!
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total cost for
custom skate boots
STS casts
Wilson revolution pattern 99 blades
initial mounting of blades
shipping
$1482
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Oh my.
Can you break those prices down?
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Oh my.
Can you break those prices down?
Ditto this, depending on the markup of the blades (retail they are $585, but I've seen them priced higher, and the parabolic version commands a premium as well), and extra costs of shipping and such, this might be right in line with "most" custom boot purchases, or it might be way out of line... and it's really hard to tell without being able to see the actual invoice.... seeing just the total is kind of meaningless.
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now the actual charges
I had 2 charges on my credit card
$800 for the custom boots STS Casts and shipping - I spent $25 for overnite shipping the casts back to Avanta to beat Avanta being closed for the Christmas Holiday - this cost is not in the $1482
$682 for blades mounting and final shipping
- Avanta asks for less upfront(~$400) to begin a custom boot I asked to pay the full cost up front - the list price for a custom boot and STS casts is higher$877 so some of this cost may be in the second charge for the blades of $682 - so even at a market price of $585 for the blades leaves $47 for shipping of the cast kit, the casts, centerline mounting of blades and shipping the final product
editorial below
and this point I have no issue with a limited production blade in short supply and a custom boot at this price
please keep in mind we budgeted $1333 for a Riedell Gold Star and the Revolution blades with tax so custom boots cost us ~$150 extra by speaking direct with Avanta
if you look at what you pay for a top of the line boot tossed in the oven and stretched and pulled to fit, $200 plus STS's costs of $28 and a warranty that is 2x as long as all the others and then toss in a bit of skating history and legend - the Avanta custom boot is well priced
the final fit will tell if the $150 was worth it - as we dealt direct with Avanta and did the STS fittings ourselves
I hope that as the arrival date nears and this thread is completed other skaters mostly those a distance away from large skating centers(aka limited dealer support) have the confidence and the information to follow our process and purchase a product designed for them that produces less harm to their feet and they can skate longer with less pain or injuries
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Considering I knew skaters spending $1500 on custom skates almost a decade ago, this seems reasonable to me. When I got custom Klingbeil's with gold-plated Gold Seals some years ago it was around $1200 all totalled up and I had to wait about two months due to the blades not being readily available.
Ice time is often $10-15/hour, coaching $60-75+/hour - for a serious skater those costs add up really fast and make the cost of skates seem insignificant. I'll miss Klingbeil's lower pricing but this doesn't seem unreasonable.
Now to hear how they work out for the skater, both initially and as they break in!
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The skates and mounted blades arrived 2/13/15
Link for pictures - there are Picts of just the Avanta's and both the Avanta's and old Riedell Silver Stars both skates have Wilson pattern 99's
https://docs.google.com/folderview?id=0By3C6TVbNrpIbTlsbVpBeVVYR3c&usp=docslist_api
Initial skater report with skates and rockers on
I am more forward
My heals are planted
My toe box is firm and toes are not squished and are comfortable
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Nice! Interesting how much higher the tongue comes up.
Curious about the insoles. Did you get them at the one store they have listed in Ithica or order online and if so, how measured? Or did Avanta put them in?
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insoles - default construction
we just filled out the custom boot order form - you can find it in the Google drive links in the beginning of this thread
you choose
boot type - Freestyle, Synchro, Dance
color - white, black, Beige
strength 35-50, 50-70, 70-85, 85+
lining - smooth leather, perforated leather, clarino
sole color - black finish, natural finish, Raw Natural
heel height - standard, or you specify - see page 2 of order form for blade to heel size
tongue hooks - one, two, none
and can make special requests - there my be a fee - ours were builders signature on the sole and blades - we were only charged for the blades -
I DONOT SKATE. I SKI(35 years) - I did all the measurements and STS Cast work as a first timer - if you put forth an effort - measure 3 times and review our video or other STS videos online anyone can complete the custom boot process - without a dealer - PLEASE NOTE - AVANTA WILL GET YOU SOMEONE TO HELP IF YOU DONOT FEEL COMFORTABLE GOING IT ALONE
I created this thread as a project to see if this process could be done without dealer support for those of us in non metropolitan areas
a custom boot lists for $850 plus $28 for the STS cast option and the shipping method you choose to return the finished casts to Avanta
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Awesome, thank you for sharing all these details plus the nice pictures of the skates. I really appreciate getting to see e pictures! Interesting insoles - Klingbeil used to come with a leather insole glued into place, I assumed the support onder it was based on the foot impressions they took. I really like mine but never saw or tried these Currex soles before - maybe they help make the boot lighter weight and are an option that can be replaced with leather if the customer desires.
Looks like quite a difference for the skater to adjust to - look forward to hearing how the break-in and adaptation goes for her!
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Thank you for the update! Verrrrrrry interested indeed in how straight the heel counter is compared to your skater's original Reidells, and for that matter compared to my current Jacksons. Also love the look of the heel height - my current boots had the heel lifted (semi custom alteration) when they were made.
Will be waiting for further usage reports with bated breath, as I will soon be at the point of needing new boots and all the boots I can find seem to have quite an exaggerated heel cup compared to the heel (mine) going in them. I was "blessed" with ankles which hardly curve in at all at the achilles area. The exaggerated heel cup of my skates is exacerbating achilles tendon calluses, and I'm under orders to change the boots to ease the calluses, or potentially risk them rupturing in later years.
Hope your skater loves the boots. They're very pretty.
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yesterday(sunday) was a very informative day due to an interesting chain of events
at about noon eastern time I received a phone call from Charles who was concerned about the "gap" in the rockers provided by Advanta. He noticed the following
1 - the space between the 2 Rockerz parts was more than 2mm
2 - that the springs were not tight enough based on the cut of the Rockerz
3 - that the Rockerz springs were not smiling
my first question was who are you Charles and how did you get my Cell#
Charles replied that he was with Rockerz and that Rockerz are provided with Advanta Custom boots
Charles then also stated that he believed that our Boot had the wrong insole based on the photos provided - now I am thinking TMI
Charles and I talked insoles and he then stated he had spent some time in Clifton Park NY - we spoke for a while and it turns out Charles knows the Skater's coach
I told Charles we were going to try the skates for the first time at 5pm Sunday
so far our only issue with the Advanta skates in insole height
it turns out Charles is Charles Sinek 2002 US Olympic competitor and a founder and owner of Penguin Specialty Products - known for Rockerz, Critter Covers and Sk8tape and Zookers
at the rink the rink manager let us use fresh ice to dial in the blade locations at "no charge"
At Charles' request I took more photos of the Rockerz and the asked our coach to call Charles to say "HI"
Charles and I traded more Pictures of Rockers - confirming quality issues with the Rockers issued by Advanta
We also confirmed with Charles the arch of the insert was too high
following practice - at home I received a call again from Charles
Rockerz will be sending us new properly cut and sprung Rockerz and our Insole fitment will be addressed
so ........
It turns out Charles is a bit more Involved in Advanta than just an agreement to provide Rockerz to Advanta
Charles is the Brains of the Advanta boot.
1 - the unique foam in the tongue of the skate boot
2 - the Insole
3 - the STS Cast
5 - the laser etching in the bottom of our boots - an Avanta first
6 - the use of Rockerz material in other parts of the boots - watch for Grey, black and red laminates
I will have more photos of rockers and the Insole in the next day or so
so after 12 hours of skate boot ups and downs - I can confidently say to any skater - Advanta has your back on a custom boot
Aussieskater and Casey- I will address your comments on the heels, break-in, insoles and adaptation in the next day or so due to my schedule
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Pics of the insole and arch
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0By3C6TVbNrpITl9mU0ozMTIxSHc&usp=sharing
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I just spoke to Bill Fauver on the phone.
He broke down the $877 for new custom skates (without blades) fit using an STS cast price more: $849 for custom skates, plus $28 more for the STS cast kit when ordered with boots. That's the whole price for the boots if you are fit at the factory - which many of us would assume to be best, though you have to add in travel time and cost. If you are instead fit at one of their designated orthotists, Avanta pays the orthotist's fee.
Also, the blade discount from standard retail when bundled with reasonably high end new blades is $150-$200 - the most at the highest end - in line with what OmegaGMT cited.
Note that at this time, the last is not molded directly from the cast, though they are looking at ways of doing so in the future. (They still use some leather, which means they need a strong enough last material - I think he said they take standard lasts and modify them by sanding them down or add pieces made from something made by Bioform, to make you an individualized last.) I think they take measurements from the cast. That's probably better than letting a third party take measurements, and gives them an opportunity to get everything right if questions arise. It also lets them look at the orientation of the leg if they want to make sure the tilt of the bottom of the feet, because the cast covers part of the leg. Plus, having your own permanent last may mean that future boots will fit almost exactly the same - if you don't grow or change your shape. In contrast, custom boot companies that do temporary mods to lasts, then re-use the last for the next customer, give you slightly different boots every time.
Everything he says shows the company is committed to future innovation, but that the people involved, including Will (Bill?) Murillo and most of Klingbeil's bootmaking team, and soon, Don Klingbeil, have a strong grounding in the skate boot making business. I love what they are saying.
Like Klingbeil used to say, they will not add extra cost for other boot options.
The price sounds quite competitive for what they are delivering, when compared with other custom skate boots.
Those who are getting their skates from them - I'm sure we would love to hear more reviews of completed boots.
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Omega: I was following this thread with great interest. Do you have any updates about how she's doing with her new boots? Thanks!
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sorry for the delay - our schedules have been rather busy - between a visit to Florida, a musical, 12 hr work days mon-sat, and a skater who right now only has time to skate about 1 hour a week due to homework load -damn honors students
- we have the new insoles, they arrived at my office while I was out of town last week
a quick update - remember our only issue so far is insole pressure while on the ice - the issue was not felt while wearing the boots with the Rockerz on around the house
the new insoles are the next size larger- medium up from small in "shoe size" with the same "medium insole(orange)" - this moves the lift to a different point - we have been instructed to try this and if we still have to much upward pressure we will discuss a "low insole(red)"
it should be noted that when we noticed the new insoles were "orange" like the original and we contacted an Advanta representative at 9:15pm EST with our question about them "being the same" or so we thought - we had a phone call response the same evening to which I could not respond until 24hrs later
new Rockerz also arrived which we will check for fitment and spring tension this weekend
we are excited to be on the ice this Sunday just to check the fit and pressure issues
we have to touch up some waterproofing issues - my mistake - I was rushing the heat and the snow seal - and the new Wilson revolution blades have a large area where ice collects - we noticed this on the first time out and need to take extra time to make sure we are protecting the sole correctly - I will try to get pictures of this issue - this issue is a Wilson issue not an Advanta issue
To date Factory Support has been Excellent!
a side note - not related to our boot
if Avanta makes the bottom sole of the boot out of the Rockerz like material they may really have an ice/moisture resistant product - if you see "red" boot bottoms on the ice you are looking at Advanta boots - keep an eye out for this -also black or grey are possible
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At the rink
The insoles are still painful
coach Dana has removed the insoles and instructed Desiree to boot up
And Desiree is skating on the bare foot bed of the skate just to break in the boot 1950's style.
We are having a great laugh at her expense as the coach had said " this is how we would break in boots when I was your age
From a spectators's view the foot work looks the same even without the comfort of an insole
Spins are looking effortless
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Just to put this out there, I was having what I thought were a lot on insole issues and it turns out it was my foot! (Went for a foot expert PT eval and found this out.)
Never know and I think with me it was somewhat the boot break in that magnified this. Something to consider if all insoles don't work out.
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a follow up to yesterdays insole swap and todays ice time - a link to pictures and short videos will be at the end of this post
we were told to immediately contact an Advanta Representative once we skated on the new insoles
we contacted Advanta at about 6:15pm EST and by 7:30pm EST Advanta was on the phone with us as we returned home from skating
Desiree described the too high an arch feeling like standing on a baseball bat
and now Low, size medium(red) insoles are on there way
it is important to note that the support we have received from Advanta has been described by Desiree as " a hot phone" - Saturday nite we had answers with in minutes and to day in just over an hour
and keep in mind that we are not competition contenders, we just enjoy the sport and thought a custom boot was in our reach given the prices of advanced stock equipment, and only skate 1-2 hours a week
all of our questions and concerns have been responded to within minutes to under 2 hours - what seem like delays in this process are due to both mine and Desiree's schedules
Avanta and Rockerz have been overly helpful on subjects such as sealing the soles, blade tricks to prevent warping, blade placement, blade tracking, - there will be more discussion on this in the future
so far after about 1.5 hours of new skate time we have dialed in the blade placement - on fresh ice we have a beautiful sets of railroad tracks
Desiree has easily adjusted to the 1/4" shorter blade and taller heel which places her over the ball of her foot - and she has done this sans insoles under her Coaches direction
the link below will have pictures of
properly fitted Rockerz
insoles - comparisons, cutting, fitting
naked skate inners
skate tongue
lacing holes
Skater and Coach
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0By3C6TVbNrpIQjlXR2FzLWxwUkE&usp=sharing
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Thanks very much for the update.
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It has been a busy week with 2 concerts(her side) and 12 hour work days(my side)
New insoles arrived on 3/16/15 - they are the lowest arch - we have yet to fit them to the skates
We will Fit the insoles this Saturday and with or without insoles Desiree will skate an hour in the skates this Sunday
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To all
sorry for the delay in the updates - I should have more pictures and comments over the upcoming week
the solid arch build into the insoles have been a problem as the skater has a flat foot
I have finally been able to spend some time with the skater to understand the pain she was experiencing and the insole relation to the ankle pocket
the insole heel height and the ankle pocket are directly related in the Advanta custom boot - care must be taken not to alter this relation
more details in the upcoming days
the skater is now jumping and is happy with the weight reduction and the reduction of the pendulum effect - the reason we made this equipment choice
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I did not want to start a new thread so here is our story: My daughter had worn out her Jackson and out skated the Protege blades on them. After a ton of research and even more hand ringing trying to make the right decision, we packed up the car and went to TN to see Will and the group at Avanta Skating Boots. after an hour of talking and a tour of the plant we were sold and committed to this new venture. My daughter was molded and it was explained that a "last" would be made of the feet and that is what the skates would be built from. We had a great time at Advanta and in TN in general! (if you ever get the opportunity go fun city and Ford ice center is GREAT!) we were told the skates would take 5 to 6 weeks to be done and delivered. we waited hardly able to contain our excitement for the arrival of the new skates. At just under 5 weeks we were called and told there would be an additional week do to a machine issue. Hey it happens. So with a little diminished excitement we waited. We were finally called and told the skates were done, there was also the apologies for a number of customer service foibles and follies. Nothing usual from a infant company trying to balance growth with service. They could not have been nicer or more apologetic. Also offering more help and service in the future should we need it. Not wanting to disappoint or wait any more I had them shipped overnight to me. When the box showed up, you wold have thought it was like a birthday and Christmas all rolled into one! These were not even for me! I opened the box and it was just like the movies think Indiana Jones opening the Ark or and sifi movie opening the and box there was a glow and a light coming out of this box! These are the most beautiful boots I had ever seen. It seems that patten 99's we ordered were not available in time so Avanta sent Pattern 99 parabolics at their expense! I had the opportunity to water proof the soles and had a few issue with that completely my fault if you want to see refer to skate care thread at the top of this page to see the problems and fixes!! The biggest issue was my daughter was testing and had her Ice Show this week so we all felt a skate change was not in her best interest. Side not Ice show went very well and She passed her Moves and FS tests!! I really wanted to wait until she had time to skate in these new boots before posting. I am happy to report and tell everyone these are great boots no Problems or issues at all. The blades and the skates are fitting and preforming every bit as expected! Yes she is getting used to the blades and has lost some skills that should come back very quickly as she acclimates to them. Ok so here is the low down, everyone that we respect in our skating community have commented on the beauty of these boots and the quality of the material and construction! in fact two of the coaches have looked into getting themselves a pair. The boots are heavier that Edeas no question but I am still not sold on the carbon fiber thing. sorry personal preference only. I know that Avanta has been at senior Nationals and other events taking orders, this company will continue to grow and be a force in this sport. so if you are looking take a look at them and get on it quick they will only continue to get busier and busier and take more time to get your skates. once you get them as my skater said they are the best ones ever! Please feel free to ask questions I will try and answer as best I can and will tell you our experiences. Hope this helps!
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Scamper, post some close up pics if possible - am really interested in them and what they look like . Thanks
Jon in Ohio
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I decided against custom boots at this time simply because I couldn't afford to wait 12-16 weeks for new boots but it's something I should plan ahead for since I would like a few custom features. I liked the look of the Avantas especially with the Rockerz soles
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Avanta is a very innovative custom skate boot company, which has done a lot of things right. It would be a shame if it were lost. I would love to see an updates on this topic when the matter is resolved.
Off topic: what is a rocker sole and why would one want it in a skate boot?
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Mod note: Thank you, CrossStroke. Let's get back on topic with the OP's inquiry.