Edea soles - removing / reinstalling blades

[Christy]

I was talking to someone who tells me that they remove their blades from their Edea boots every 20 hours and ship them to their skate tech for sharpening, then they reinstall them. They said they'd done it for a few years and never had problems but it did make me wonder:

How many times can you reuse the same screw holes in the Edea soles before they start to enlarge?
If you remove then reinstall blades into the same holes will the blades always be in the same position or could they be reinstalled at slightly different angles each time?

I ask because I have considered shipping my skates for sharpening, but didn't think I could remove then reinstall the blades, because of the questions above, and obviously I know with other brands such as Risport that have leather soles, it wouldn't be possible to remove the blades more than once or twice.

[Query]

I ask because I have considered shipping my skates for sharpening, but didn't think I could remove then reinstall the blades, because of the questions above, and obviously I know with other brands such as Risport that have leather soles, it wouldn't be possible to remove the blades more than once or twice.

Some of us have removed blades more than once or twice on leather soles. You try to be very careful not to strip the hole's threads, by overtightening. If you do strip them, you need to fill the hole with something first, like a wooden dowel, or a strip of leather, or "Shoe Goo" - though Shoe Goo takes a few days to set.

It is quite possible to do it wrong. Which is one of the reasons why many people use good experienced techs - but I assume you want to mail your blades because you don't have such a tech.

But Edea soles may be very different, because of the material, and because they are thin.

Edea sells these plugs, which might help if the holes are too loose - but I have no Edea skates, and can't be sure. Edea says they are intended for different model blades with different position holes. It doesn't mention re-using the same blade and holes. I just found a post in another forum that mentioned using glue with the plugs, but it didn't give detailed directions.

If no one else knows better here, perhaps you can contact Edea for suggestions?

Some people have two pairs of boots & blades, so they can mail one pair at a time to be sharpened.

[Bill_S]

Once screws are placed in the "permanent mounting holes", then it's easy to remove then replace the blades without changing their position on the sole.

However, removing then replacing screws that often in soles, whether plastic or leather, is fraught with peril. One small over-tighten slip can strip the threads in the sole. That leads to a lot of work to get back on the ice. Over time, the threads themselves will weaken too. Removing/replacing screws every 20 hours would make me nervous.

[Kaitsu]

Edea soles are excellent in this perspective. They truly withstand several blade mountings to same holes without issues. However mentioned way of working where blades are removed every time they are sharpened does not sound something what I would recommend. Normally I do not sharpen blades before I have mounted them in to the boots. Reason is that blades will change shape depending if they are mounted or not. I do not know if my logic has any sense, but I want that sharpening is made in the condition where skater uses them. It may help possible problem solving when one possible change is excluded.

No matter how accurately I try to make blade mounting, blades will bend less or more. Before tightening screws to final torque, I will force blade to be straight. Or at least as straight as I can get. You need suitable friction / torque so that blade will not return back bent position due the spring forces, but still allows you to force blade to be straight. This procedure I should possibly do every time when I have removed blade from the boot.

[tstop4me]

I was wondering whether anyone here has installed threaded bushings/inserts into the soles and heels of figure skate boots.  That way you could repeatedly and reliably demount and remount the blades.  I considered that once when I was in the same bind:  no local decent sharpener.

[AlbaNY]

I was wondering whether anyone here has installed threaded bushings/inserts into the soles and heels of figure skate boots.  That way you could repeatedly and reliably demount and remount the blades.  I considered that once when I was in the same bind:  no local decent sharpener.

That sounds like an excellent idea. 

[Bill_S]

Thought about it, but never attempted it. I've used dozens of the threaded inserts for various woodworking projects.

I suspect that working with leather soles would be straightforward for the typical insert, but I've never seen an insert having outside threads specifically for plastic.

There are two that I'd consider using. First is the common brass threaded insert with self-tapping threads on the outside and machine screw threads (i.e., 8-32) on the inside. Length may be an issue in a thinner sole, but they can be shortened.

Here are some of them being installed into MDF...



The second type is one often used in loudspeaker building called a Hurricane Nut. They have a wide washer area and would have to be installed inside the boot. They are thin, so perhaps an insole would prevent the skater from feeling their ~ 0.030" height. The shot below shows them being inserted into a loudspeaker baffle with some glue to prevent them from spinning.



The heel, being tall, would require some thought about how to best use these inserts. Longer screws would be one option.

With either of these two methods, accuracy of hole placement would be of utmost importance.
 

[Christy]

Once screws are placed in the "permanent mounting holes", then it's easy to remove then replace the blades without changing their position on the sole.

However, removing then replacing screws that often in soles, whether plastic or leather, is fraught with peril. One small over-tighten slip can strip the threads in the sole. That leads to a lot of work to get back on the ice. Over time, the threads themselves will weaken too. Removing/replacing screws every 20 hours would make me nervous.

When they were telling me I immediately wondered if there was a risk of stripping the threads, or of enlarging the holes by not positioning the screws in the exact same position every time. It's interesting that reading the posts here there is a risk, but it can work.

[tstop4me]

When they were telling me I immediately wondered if there was a risk of stripping the threads, or of enlarging the holes by not positioning the screws in the exact same position every time. It's interesting that reading the posts here there is a risk, but it can work.

Yes, you've hit the nail on the head (to use an incorrect metaphor).  You do have one existence proof that it can be done.  But a key point to emphasize is that the screws are self-tapping.  So not only do the screws need to be positioned, oriented, and engaged carefully each time, they also need to be carefully torqued down in the same sequence to maintain proper positioning, orientation, and engagement.  Otherwise, a screw will simply start cutting a new thread, leading to a damaged hole.

[NiceIce]

Hi,

It can be done, but it would be very important to have the screw's threads go exactly into the previously made threads.  Otherwise the screws would constantly be tapping new holes and would soon strip out the hole.  This skater must be aware of this and being very careful.  Normally the trick is to lightly place the tip of the screw in place and then turn it in the reverse direction until you can feel the screw fall into the hole as the last thread edge falls into the proper place, then screw in making sure it feels like it is not cutting new threads (easier to do than to explain).   It's only recommended to do this with a hand screwdriver -- no power tools.

Edea does make machine threaded screw sets that attach from the inside.  They make these for quad wheeled skaters.

Edit:  I know I saw those online once at a quad skate shop in Florida, but I can't find them now.  However quad shops do offer special flat head machine screws that use a washer and nut on the outside.  This would work but look a bit strange.

Those hurricane nuts - I think also called T nuts -- would work fine.  Just using them in the heels would be a challenge.

M.

[Query]

Edea does make machine threaded screw sets that attach from the inside.  They make these for quad wheeled skaters.

Edit:  I know I saw those online once at a quad skate shop in Florida, but I can't find them now.  However quad shops do offer special flat head machine screws that use a washer and nut on the outside.  This would work but look a bit strange.

Those hurricane nuts - I think also called T nuts -- would work fine.  Just using them in the heels would be a challenge.

Why couldn't you use any flat-top head bolt of the right length, plus an appropriate nut?

If I remember right, a skater who needed to change her blades frequently (I think she had been a show skater, and frequently had to skate on "artificial" plastic ice, which is more abrasive) once told me that she had used bolts and nuts to secure blades. But she used thin nuts - I thought on the inside not outside of the boot.

And years ago (before Edea was popular) a person who ran a skate shop told me roller skates often attached the chassis (is that the right word??) that holds the wheels using bolts and nuts - again using thin nuts.

But I haven't done it, or seen it done. Maybe they really did put the bolt on the inside?

Regardless, if, like most blades, the holes are countersunk, I assume the bolt or nut on the outside should be countersunk too, so it fits right and locks the blade in place. And for both nuts and bolts, I presume stainless steel is much less likely to rust than galvanized steel.

There are a lot of Youtube videos about people who had trouble removing roller or inline mounting bolts, because they stripped the head. As with any screw or nut, you can strip the head if you do tighten or loosen it wrong, e.g., with a tool that doesn't quite fit, which makes them much harder to remove - though there are ways to do it - most of which involve buying extra tools. In addition, hex and square head bolts are less likely to strip then hex key driven bolts. That's especially important if you are going to do this so often.

P.S. There are many threads on this site about sharpening your own blades. If you have the right tools, they fit your blades, and you have some degree of mechanical intuition, you can learn how. Do I remember that you participated in some of those threads?

[NiceIce]

You could use a flat head bolt certainly,

That is what I've seen supplied for quad wheel skaters:  https://www.rollernco.com/en/screws-quads/2043-vis-platine-21mm-x4-powerslide-4040333271520.html

But a T-Nut would allow one to use a flat head screw to fit the countersunk holes in a blade.

Using hand tools, e.g. nut driver, screwdriver, etc, should generally prevent stripping of machine threaded screws as most people's hands are not that strong.

However, I certainly wouldn't want to be taking my blades off all the time and sending them away!  I guess they don't have a good local sharpener.  That person could try to sharpen their own, but maybe they would still prefer their own skate tech to do them and don't mind the whole process.

Many people are pretty bad with their hands.  Med schools are supposedly having a hard time with new surgical students because they have no fine hand skills.  Used to be in school, scouts, hobbies, kids did tons with their hands that develop strength and skill (sewing, carving, pottery, crafting, cutting, wood shop, metal shop, etc etc) but just don't do that much anymore.


M

[Query]

The stripping I was referring to was of the heads, not the threads.

The bolts you show have circular heads, which you can't put a wrench on to turn them. So they probably have one of the following:

1. Small hex key holes, that you fit small hex keys in. These strip very easily with ordinary hand strength.

At least that is my experience with the soft aluminum bolts that were used to hold the runners on in the old Matrix 1 blades. It helps if you find high quality hex keys that exactly fit the holes - e.g., if you initially need to use a hammer to lightly tap the key in. (Don't use the key for anything else than this!) Then, after a few uses, the holes wear a bit bigger, and you can no longer insert the keys without much play - and it is that play that causes the holes to strip. Then you find various cheap hex key sets, some of which will happen to have slightly too large keys, and you use them. Finally, when the holes have too much play to be used without stripping the bolts (and if you let it go too long, you need special tools to remove them), you need to replace the bolts.

2. Phillips heads. Even if you use exactly the right size Phillips head screwdriver (hint: good quality screwdrivers work a lot better here.), and press down hard as you turn, Phillips heads slip a little against the screwdriver bit, and eventually slip, and very soon strip the head. I know engineers often claim Phillips heads are great, because you can insert the screwdriver in a few tenths of a second faster than anything else, but to me, they will always be a sign of shoddy workmanship.

3. Slotted heads. Much better than Phillips, at least if you can find one of exactly the right size, and once again press down hard as you turn, but they eventually strip too.

4. Torx heads. Likewise. Though these strip slower than the 3 above, but they aren't all that common. So it isn't likely that the roller bolts use them. And like hex keys, they are too small, and eventually strip too.

5. Tamper resistant heads, that require a weird shape screwdriver tip. These never seem to be well designed against slippage, and it is hard to replace the screwdriver or screwdriver tip. Yuck.

I think a stainless steel hex headed bolt really is best, provided there is space to use a socket wrench. A square headed bolt works about as well - but it is harder to find socket wrenches that fit them.

That said, you have to use what is available.