02-17-2010, 11:10 AM
falen
Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skittl1321
This is a good point. She needs to be able to do a solid 2-foot turn
before it's likely she'll be able to get her 3-turn. How is her two
foot turn? (Basic 2 teaches 2 foot turn in place, Basic 3 a 2-foot
turn moving. If she passed, she should be able to do it. Perhaps she
passed but still needs to keep practicing that skill on her own.
Many kids pass a level and think they have mastered everything,
rather than being "just good enough", which isn't quite the same)
That's a good place to learn to check the arms, and also to learn to
glide out of the turn, rather then stopping in place.
Well the 2 foot turn looks good to me. It was a loong time before her
coach liked it, but she says it is good now. With the 3 turn, she does the
turn, then she stomps the other foot down. Coach gives her just a finger
to hold and then she keeps the foot up. The finger can't be doing that
much, it's only a finger
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02-17-2010, 11:25 AM
phoenix
Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,707
3 turns can take a long time to get. I remember going to public session &
doing nothing but 3 turns over & over again for weeks before they started
to get reasonably consistent.
It depends on the skater--if she can do it w/ the touch of a finger, then
it's just a confidence issue, & that will only be solved with time,
practice, and determination.
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02-17-2010, 08:11 PM
Schmeck
Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: NE Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,292
Quote:
Originally Posted by falen
Hi,
Now this kid can do all the elements from basic 5, including a
backward crossover (and she does it the proffessional way, as my
friend puts it, she never lifted that crossing over foot, she went
right to that swishing in front thing and then lifting the back foot
over.
That 'swishing in front' is not a good thing - it should be a solid weight
transfer, not a swishing motion at all - don't let her do it like that for
too long - muscle memory will set in and she'll have a really bad habit to
break. I've been there, done that on one of my back crossovers!
__________________
blades, gary, Lucy, Emily, take care of Aiden and Sami. Sami is my
sweetest heart, and always will be, forever. RIP Cubby Boy, my hero dog.
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02-17-2010, 09:13 PM
Skittl1321
Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iowa
Posts: 2,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmeck
That 'swishing in front' is not a good thing - it should be a solid
weight transfer, not a swishing motion at all - don't let her do it
like that for too long - muscle memory will set in and she'll have a
really bad habit to break. I've been there, done that on one of my
back crossovers!
I'd also have a coach look at it before changing it- a non-skater might
see swishing in front when what is really happening is more of a pushing
from the back.
(USFSA basic skills tends not to teach the stepping over on back
crossovers at all- that seems to be an ISI thing. So swizzling in front is
usually the first step, but still a beginner back crossover. The stepping
over is roughly equal- it's not a baby crossover, but a different teaching
method.)
__________________
-Jessi
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02-18-2010, 04:25 AM
cazzie
Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 147
I can so relate to your daughter. My son (now 7) insisted I do learn to
skate classes with him when he was younger. (He got to laugh at me a lot
as he was so much better than I am and very soon was several grades ahead
of me).
I failed inside 3 turns about 3 times - one of the coaches took off a
glove and held one end while I held one finger of the glove and I could do
them - (just so they show me that I could actually do them but was being a
total wimp).
I did get comfortable with normal backwards skating because my dictator of
a child made me go round and round the rink backwards while he pretended
to be the crocodile from Peter Pan but - outside edges backwards were way
scarier for me.
I have a huge phobia about falling (since a really bad horse-riding
accident almost 20 years ago) and I think its a huge part of my own
discomfort on ice. (I do leave skating to the kids now).
Unfortunately no real suggestions for your daughter - but - lots of
empathy. I guess the best way to overcome a fear of falling is to do the
scary thing over and over again...
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02-18-2010, 09:02 AM
falen
Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skittl1321
I'd also have a coach look at it before changing it- a non-skater
might see swishing in front when what is really happening is more of
a pushing from the back.
(USFSA basic skills tends not to teach the stepping over on back
crossovers at all- that seems to be an ISI thing. So swizzling in
front is usually the first step, but still a beginner back
crossover. The stepping over is roughly equal- it's not a baby
crossover, but a different teaching method.)
Coach likes her back crossover. She said she is doing them correctly
(something about edges...I don't remember if its outside or inside...but
apparently she is on the correct edge). On the non dominant side she has
to step over...she doesn't seem to have the coordination to do it the
other way yet.
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02-18-2010, 09:04 AM
falen
Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by cazzie
I failed inside 3 turns about 3 times - one of the coaches took off
a glove and held one end while I held one finger of the glove and I
could do them - (just so they show me that I could actually do them
but was being a total wimp).
..
I'll have to tell her coach that trick!
That is how I learned to swim...My aunt popped my floater while I was
swimming...by the time I was in deep water, no floater, I was just
swimming with dead weight.
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02-17-2010, 04:37 PM
Query
Registered User Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 800
First, I'm neither a coach nor an outstanding skater. I still have lots of
trouble with three turns. (I have taught some low level Basic classes on a
volunteer basis.)
Good one foot 3-turns require strength. The other elements up to Basic
Skills 5 don't, so it isn't surprising 3-turns are harder.
I'm sorry if I am suggesting a lot of off-ice strengthening exercises,
which aren't much fun. But I believe lack of strength is the main reason
people (including me) have trouble with turns and jumps - including the
ones your daughter is about to get into.
Here are the exercises I personally follow. I try to do them all as a
sequence. (The spinning exercises I do off ice too.) Maybe they will help.
Do your best to truly master each step before going on to the next.
(Throughout, "you" is addressed to the skater, your child.)
1. You can indeed easily create a spin with your arms. Just wrap the arms
around your body in one direction (CW=clockwise) while standing still on
two feet. Unwrap your arms and wrap them CCW. When the arms finish
wrapping, the angular momentum (a physics measure of the tendency to spin)
is transfered to your body, and your whole body will spin CCW. As you wrap
and unwrap, rotate your entire spine as far as it will go.
Try wrapping and spinning in one direction, then reversing the wrap and
spin in the opposite direction, then reverse again and go in the first
direction, and repeat over and over again. Master doing "two foot spins"
this way.
Most first time skaters can do this easily.
Most kids easily have the flexibility to turn 90 degrees or more in each
directions. If not, work on flexibility by doing this exercise off-ice
after warming up. BUT - if you have ever injured your spine, this is
dangerous. I've seen people with prior histories of spinal injury
re-injure themselves with a similar flexibility exercise while paddling
kayaks. Consult a physical therapist or similar expert.
2. Start gliding forward on two feet, and do the same exercise while
moving, to create "two foot 3-turns". Turn 180 degrees forwards to back
CCW, then back to forwards CW, and repeat, all while gliding in the same
direction on a straight line.
3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 in the other direction: CW forward to back, then
back to forward CCW, etc. You may find step 2 easier than 3, or 3 easier
than 2.
Step 3 is within the abilities of most kids and adults who have mastered
Basic 1.
4. In the case of 3 turns, it helps a lot to lean inside towards the
center of the circle you are skating on, just before the turn. Lean a lot.
The hardest part may be coming back out of the lean as you finish the
turn.
Try to Master steps 2 and 3 with the lean. It's hard.
It can also help if you raise yourself to your toes as you start to turn,
and come back down as you stop. More about this later, because it requires
strength.
5. Now repeat step 1, but "check" (stop) the spins by wrapping the arms
the opposite way when you want to stop spinning or turning. This is just
an exercise to prepare you for the next. You probably won't have to end
spins with a check at least at entry levels, because you won't be able to
spin long enough for stopping to be a problem.
These are a lot harder, because they require careful timing. You may never
quite get it. Eventually you may have to give up and go on to step 6.
6. Repeat steps 2-5 with that same style check. Again, do as well as you
can for now, then go on.
7. Now try to master steps 1 and 5 on one foot, to produce "1 foot spins".
Doing anything on one foot is way harder than two, because of balance, so
don't expect full mastery. You will probably have to start on two feet,
then lift the other foot up while spinning, and put the other foot down
again when you stop, at least for now.
Eventually you should be able to start the unwrap and spin just after
lifting the other foot, and not put the other down until you have stopped.
By the way, few people can stay balanced on one foot without gliding or
spinning on it, but you are welcome to try.
(But don't expect to be able to reverse spin directions while standing on
one foot, though trying is fun, if you know how to fall safely. You will
fall if you try.)
You will probably find it easiest to pivot on the ball of your foot.
(For these exercises I am going to ignore the whole issue of stepping into
spins. After all you asked about turns.)
8. Now try to master steps 2-6 on one foot to produce "1 foot 3-turns".
Again, these are very hard, so don't expect complete mastery, ever.
It is possible to reverse spin directions while gliding along a line on
one foot, and trying is fun, but is way beyond the abilities of most Basic
5 students. If you try it, you will fall.
Do these on the left foot (which is easier for most but not all people),
and then the right foot. (A few people find it easier to master the right
foot first - it's OK to change the order.)
A lot of kids and adults never quite trust their balance enough to do a
big outside lean on outside edges, and you need that to do good outside 3
turns. I've seen a lot of otherwise advanced kids and adults who never
quite get anything right that requires outside leans.
The front to back turn should still be on the ball of the foot, or
slightly forwards of that. Many people take it all the way to the toe. The
back to front turn (which is much harder) works best on a point back of
the center of the blade.
9. Wrapping arms on turns is a beginnerish technique, that even some first
time skaters can easily do; because it requires very little strength.
Figure skating coaches and judges don't like full arm wraps on turns. They
think that if you use your arms at all, they should stay straight, and
swing forward and back, not swing around your body.
Another problem with using your arms in turns is that it creates net
angular momentum, which makes it hard to stop (check) the turn at the end.
On the other hand, wrapping arms, fully or partly, is often used in spins,
even at high skill levels. (You obviously can't spin with your arms
staying in place.)
On the turns for this step, try to keep your arms straight next to your
side, and swing one arm forward and the other back to create the instead
of wrapping.
Swinging arms doesn't work as well as wrapping, but figure skating people
think it shows more control.
So repeat all the steps from 1-8 above that involve turns (not spins)
using this technique.
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02-17-2010, 04:37 PM
Query
Registered User Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 800
(Continued from last post)
10. Eventually you want to do all the turns (not the spins) in steps 1-8
without any arm or shoulder wraps or swings at all. Just extend the arms
and shoulders straight out at your sides at shoulder level, and turn the
body against it.
Most kids who have mastered Basic 2 can do this on two foot turns. But 1
foot 3-turns are harder!
This requires upper body strength, to hold your upper spine and shoulders
still, while you pivot about your waist.
11. Off-ice strengthening helps a lot.
http://Sk8Strong.com has a whole
bunch of neat exercises if you buy her stuff, but if you are at the
beginning levels of making yourself strong, here are some more basic
exercises.
Remember to strengthen yourself gradually, and only after you are warmed
up by aerobic exercise, because it is extremely easy to hurt yourself by
doing too much too fast! If you get sore, stop. If you stay sore more than
a few minutes after exercise, especially if any pain occurs beyond 15
minutes, or appears later (e.g., the next day), you probably did too much.
(There is disagreement about this. Start talking to kids and adults at the
rink - many of the best athletes hurt all the time. Then again, some have
arthritis by the time they are teenagers, and can barely walk by the time
they are 40.)
Two handed push ups. If not strong enough to do a push-up flat, either
pivot off your knees, or put your hands on steps while your feet are at
the base of the stairs.
There are variations for super-strong people that I may never be able to
do. One handed push ups, or clap your hands while you are in the up
position.
Pull ups. If not strong enough to do pull ups, support yourself partly
with your legs. Be careful not to hurt yourself. If you are really strong,
try this with one hand, but be very careful.
There are gym machines where you pull something down against weights that
you can use instead of pull-ups.
Mostly do pull ups with you hands and arms in front of your body, to avoid
dislocating your shoulders.
The weight machines allow you to more safely limit motion, and you can
pull down with the arms and hands slightly behind.the head, which
exercises a different set of muscles. Be very careful, especially if your
shoulders are flexible! If you are able to pull your shoulder blades back
so they don't touch your arm bones by using your own strength, you are
pretty flexible, so consult a physical therapist or similar expert.
Pull things horizontally at shoulder level with one or both arms too. You
could use stretch bands or bungee cords at home. I use a rowing machine at
a local gym.
It is safest to pull with your arms straight in front of you, but you
should pull at other angles too, to strengthen other muscles. But pulling
with your arms behind your body can be dangerous to your shoulders.
12. It helps a lot if you can achieve balance by pulling in all the
muscles around your body at the level of your abdomen, instead of by
flinging your arms and shoulders around.. When you do this, you will feel
everything starting with your ribs above the abdomen lift away from your
hips, and your spine will straighten. Ballet ballroom and ice dancers call
this good posture, but I'm just trying to improve stability and control.
By the way, this position also increases spinal flexibility. Many experts
say it's not healthy to be in this lifted straightened spine position all
the time, but it does help when doing spins and turns.
This requires core (abdomen, lower back, and the muscles on the sides
between them) and leg strengthening too. Again,
http://Sk8Strong.com has
exercises, as do Pilates books and videos, but here are some more basic
ones:
Sit ups, both straight and diagonally to each side.
Leg raises, crossed in front of you, front, rear and side, and moving
slowly between those positions, while you are standing, as well as in bent
knee positions. Same while lying on your back. Same while lying on your
stomach.
Do these with your feet in neutral position, with them turned in, and with
them turned out.
Standing on one leg for a long time. Spiral (arabesque) positions help too
- both with the foot comfortable down, and with the foot turned out as
when skating.
Staying still in a squat position for a long time. If you must, put your
hands on your knees to help.
If you can, stay in "shoot the duck" positions and other one foot squat
positions, a long time. It is cheating to rest your rear end on a foot, or
to let the limits of your knee's range of motion hold you up. Use your
muscles.
Squats (deep knee bends and raise exercises). Two footed. One footed if
you are strong. To push your strength while keeping your body in a safe
position, you can use bench press machines at the gym.
Stepping up onto steps and back down again.
Alternate lunges. Some people say you should not repeatedly lunge with
your knees bent more than 90 degrees. Be sure to keep the knees aligned
above the feet. If they wander sideways, it can gradually injure the
cartilage in the knees.
I can't find a good off-ice exercise to strengthen pulling my legs
together without equipment. You could stand on one leg and pull against an
anchored stretch band or bungee with the other leg to bring the legs
together. Or you could rest one leg vertically on the floor, and the other
leg horizontally on some steps, and push your body up with the leg on the
steps - but these are both very awkward. Maybe the easiest exercise is
on-ice swizzles, done fast.
Maybe jumping on trampolines. Be careful of everything!
Maybe kayaking, rotating about your waist instead of extending and bending
your elbows. Be careful not to dislocate shoulders or injure spine.
.
13. It helps a lot on 3 turns if you slowly and gradually rise towards
your toe as you start the turn, and lower back down as you finish it. That
takes a lot of core and leg strength. Practice doing all the turns above
this way.
Strengthen yourself for this by all of the above, plus do two, then one
foot slow toe raises and lowers off ice.
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02-17-2010, 08:06 PM
falen
Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 131
wow!
thanks for the time you took on that post. I'm going to have to take some
time to study this as some of the steps I can't really visualize. I'll let
you know how it goes!